Part of CSNPhilly.com


« Winter Meetings: Boring SPs, Papelbon, mystery deals | Main | Halladay, the man who never quit, finally does »

Monday, December 09, 2013

Comments

Both the Tim Hudson and Bert Blyleven arguments are really weak as Doc was much better than both of them.

You gotta go with the Kirby Puckett argument where he was simply the best at what he did for a significant period even if it was artificially shortened a bit by an unknown injury/disease (as now seems eveidnt).

From mlbtraderumors.com:

From 2001-2011, Halladay pitched an even 2300 innings and posted a stellar 2.98 ERA with 7.0 K/9 and a brilliant 1.6 K/9. Despite pitching in two of baseball's most hitter-friendly environments -- Toronto's Rogers Centre and Philadelphia's Citizens Bank Park -- Halladay yielded just 0.7 homers per nine innings in that time as well.

That peak run for Halladay saw him pile up accolade after accolade; Doc was named to eight All-Star teams, won a pair of Cy Young Awards and added in five other Top 5 finishes in the Cy Young voting -- most recently finishing runner-up in 2011. Halladay finished in the Top 10 in NL MVP voting in both 2010 an 2011 as well.

Perhaps most famously, Halladay will be remembered for firing a no-hitter in Game 1 of the 2010 National League Division Series against the Reds, with a fifth-inning walk to Jay Bruce being the lone plate appearance preventing him from a perfect game. Just five months prior, Halladay had hurled a perfect game against the Marlins during the regular season.

Halladay's sudden retirement brings to close a career that will finish with a 203-105 record, a 3.38 ERA and 2,117 strikeouts in 2,749 1/3 innings pitched. Halladay's 67 complete games and 20 shutouts are a rarity in today's game of specialized bullpens, and they serve as a testament to the durability and mental acumen that allowed him to lead the league in innings pitched on four separate occasions.

Watching the Doc perfect game and the playoff no hitter was some of the best moments of Phillies baseball I've ever watched. Sad to see him go but I'm glad we got to see that pitcher, if only for a little while.

Aren't CY Young's kind of like how many championships you won and/or how many wins you recorded as a SP? CY's don't speak to dominance as much as numbers, and Roy's numbers aren't worthy of "surefire hall of famer".

Posted by: Nonamephame (Founder of the Cody Asche fan club, no scout-lovers allowed) | Monday, December 09, 2013 at 11:44 AM

They can be but when you win multiple ones and are consistently in the Top 2-3 like he was, it says a lot about how dominant you were as a pitcher. Two wins, two #2 finishes, and three other Top 5 finishes.

Neither Hudson or Blyleven can even come close to matching that...nor can a guy like Jack Morris.

Halladay may not be a inner circle 1st year inductee but I bet he gets in rather quickly (within 3-4 years) and he fully deserves it.

At my (somewhat) young age of 30, Doc was one of the best I've ever seen in person when he was on.

Guess this will be the last time I get to relay this little nugget:

I was at a game back in July 2009 when the Phillies were in discussion to trade for Halladay, and a guy from the Toronto area happened to be sitting in the row in front of me (on a ballparks tour vacation). Of course we ended up getting Lee, but I'll never forget what the guy said about Doc: "Give up everybody. Because he's that good." Up until the injuries/illnesses, the guy was right.

Thank you for the memories, Doc.

In the last 20 years, there are only a handful of guys that were better than Doc...

Pedro obviously
Maddux of course
Clemens (pre Juiced version)
Randy Johnson
Schilling is close but not quite as good.

Kershaw might be if he stays healthy...but that's a huge might with any pitcher.

FWIW, the ever fun Hall of Fame Standard and Hall of Fame Monitor (Bill Jame creations) sums this argument up pretty nicely:

Hall of Fame Standard: 45 (avg HOF is 50)
Hall of Fame Monitor: 126 (likely HOF is 100)

Chris Branch links both the perfect game and the no-no here:

http://blogs.delawareonline.com/philledin/2013/12/09/roy-halladay-is-retiring/


Good times.

retires as a jay..

Those sure were "funner" times......thanks, Doc!

some text
Happier Times

There's also this...possibly the funniest sports related commercial in the past decade:

some text

Thanks for the memories, Doc! You were a lot of fun to watch.

NEPP: Agreed. Even if it was for 2K (blech).

It was obvious this was coming, even if the usual suspects whined for months about the inevitability of him re-signing for 2014.

Doc doesn't owe anyone an explanation about anything, but I do wonder if we'll ever find out what illness brought on all of this. It's really a shame.

David Murphy ‏@ByDavidMurphy 5m
Halladay is retiring as a Blue Jay but there is a Phillies cap displayed next to the Toronto cap on the podium where he'll speak

Jim Salisbury ‏@JSalisburyCSN 6m
Halladay posing for pictures w his family. He is misty eyed.

Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki 58s
Halladay teary eyed and choked up as he talks about people who helped him in his career, especially his family.

Shannon ‏@shannymo31 3m
"Philadelphia was the icing on the cake for me." - Halladay

Retire Doc's number after 2 really good years here? Nah.

Just remember him at zenith in a Phils' uniform in the '10 playoffs.

Halladay said he's been pitching to his boys and his shoulder feels fine; "Unfortunately, I can't get them out," he joked.

Said he has a Pars (sp?) fracture in his back, if I heard him right. It's more his back that is an issue, which led to shoulder problems. And he's trying to avoid surgery.

ZWR is predictably choked up.

Here it is:

Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki 1m
Halladay said shoulder feels fine, but has two fractures in back, plus other issues. Back biggest issue.


Matt Gelb ‏@magelb 2m
Halliday says he has fractures his back and herniated disks.

At least we get to be the icing. Nobody likes muffin stumps!

Matt Gelb can't spell Halladay either?

Asked by Ryan Lawrence what it was like, as a proud athlete, the past two years, Doc answered: "The people I was close with - players, front office, trainers, obviously knew that it was a struggle. It's so much fun to play the game and to go out and to compete. I looked forward to that fifth day more than anything. To be able to go out there and know that it's probably not going to feel very good and I'm not going to be able to do things the way I want to do them was very frustrating...not only personally, but I felt like there was a certain responsibility that I owed to me teammates, to the organization. That part was definitely very challenging for me. To feel like you're trying to give everything you can, but there's something holding you back, that was a challenge for me. That was a major factor in why we decided this was the right time. I want to be able to give everything of myself that I can. I felt like this was a point where I really couldn't do that anymore."

Suprised initially but not after hearing about a broken back.

The weight of trying to win a championship must have just been too much.

What a great guy to watch pitch! Good luck Roy!

(Can Phillies hire him as pitching coach now?)

I wonder if Howard's hit on Lidge in 2008 is to blame for Doc's back issues...

Asked by Dennis Deitch it was harder to have it be sudden, to go from Cy Young caliber to struggling: "It was probably more steady than people knew."

Iceman: "It was obvious this was coming, even if the usual suspects whined for months about the inevitability of him re-signing for 2014."

Roy Hallday retiring this offseason was 'obvious'? I've seen it be contemplated here or there, but there is no way this was some foregone conclusion.

Pretty sure Doc retiring was about the only that could stop Amaro from re-signing.

"There were little things that kind of led up to it. Going into the last two seasons, I knew it was going to be a challenge...I wasn't ready to admit that, I wasn't ready to give up on that, and I wanted to try to find a way to overcome it. The last two years helped me to understand that as much as I want to change it, I don't know if I can. That helped to ease the decision."

He also said he thinks he would have regretted it if he'd retired two years ago. He knows now that he tried everything he could to come back.

Been downhill since his public support of sodomy. Told you it gets worse.

He's a sure thing HoF to me. 1st ballot, over 90% of vote? Doubtful, but it won't be long before he's deservedly voted in.

His reg season perfecto, playoff no-no in the same season will go down in history, probably forever.

And leading the 2011 staff which was arguably the best in baseball history is just another notch on his belt that I wish had some more, but certainly has enough.

Said he loved being in the playoffs (surprise, surprise).

David Murphy ‏@ByDavidMurphy 4m
Rally Squirrel reference from Halladay. Says you can have the best team on paper but sometimes the squirrel runs across the plate


Zoo With Roy ‏@zoowithroy 3m
Halladay went 15-13 over past two seasons with frayed labrum & torn rotator cuff + two pars fractures, eroded disk, & pinched nerves in back


Doc said hopefully down the road, he can be a part of a World Series in a different aspect.

I'd take him as a coach, for sure.

"I'd love to retire with two teams. I don't think that's possible. I want the Phillies organization, the fans, to know how much I enjoyed my time there. How much they meant to me, to my family."

Sad to see Halladay's success come to an end so early but that seems to be a trend or curse with this Phillies team. It was definitely fun to watch him though.

(I should have separated those 3 different thoughts above. Sorry.)

Asked how he'd like to be remembered, Doc replied "Not quitting." Elaborated, "I didn't feel like when I took the mound, I gave anything less than my best effort."

Brown is activly being shopped.

How about Brown for Chris Archer and then sign Choo

It was a pleasure to watch Doc pitch in '10 and '11. Absolutely one of my favorite Phils of all time, even if it was a short stretch here. No way they retire his number, but I wouldn't object if they decided to.

As for the HOF, I'm sure he'll get in, but it will probably be on the 4th ballot or so.

I have to say that the 9-8 win over Detroit is not one that stands out for me the way it does for Doc.

Still no mention of the other long-term dietary issue (whether its Crohn's, Diabetes, etc). I wonder if that will ever come out. Sounds like he basically pitched with several major injuries and simply couldn't bring it anymore.

Shane Victorino ‏@ShaneVictorino 3m
I want to congratulate Roy Halladay on a great career! Blessed to have played with such a fierce competitor and one of the best teammates.

I wish Beerleaguer had a designated commenter attend the presser to ask a question about he is handling his Chron's Disease diagnoses.

Jonathan Pettibone ‏@Jon_Pettibone 3m
What an honor it was to be in the same rotation as Halladay. Huge mentor for me in my rookie season and even harder worker. Will be missed


I bet Roob does something today. He was most certainly banking on signing Halladay for next year.

re: DOM being "actively" shopped

I said it before...if you can trade DOM[anyone] for someone more valuable than DOM[anyone] then go ahead.

However that actually happening has very little chance to take place in my opinion.


MLB ‏@MLB 30m
"They are starting to strive for their dreams and that's something I want to be a part of." - Halladay on spending more time with his sons.

Trading Dom for "controllable young pitching"....yeah, no way Rube screws this up.

It was certainly never obvious that he was going to retire to anyone but he and his family. In fact, do you really have any doubt that if he'd wanted to crank it up again, Rube would have been first (and probably only) in line to hand him too generous of a contract? If you doubt that, Ice, you haven't really been watching.

It was fun watching him pitch until his injuries, at which time it became excruciating. I will now be forever grateful to Doc for two things: 1. Saving Ruben Amaro Jr. from himself and taking the decision away from him. 2. Not having to watch another Carlton-esque death spiral into oblivion.

I hope Doc doesn't miss it too much. Playing major league sports does seem to affect people very much like a drug.

MLB ‏@MLB 30m
"Baseball has been so great to me. I still want to find ways to be involved." - Roy Halladay.

Now that Doc's retired, does KK have to retire also?

Speaking of the HOF, Torre, La Russa, Cox are in as managers. No for Marvin Miller and Larry David, er, George Steinbrenner.

Chris Branch ‏@ChrisBranchTNJ 57s
""Roy was probably the best influence in my career." -- Kyle Kendrick.

(Remember KK shadowing Doc at spring training?)

Chris Branch ‏@ChrisBranchTNJ 1m
"Hands down, he was the best pitcher of this era and a first ballot Hall of Famer." -- Oswalt.

Chris Branch ‏@ChrisBranchTNJ 41s
"I'll miss his presence and passion but, most of all, I will miss his intensity.” -- Utley.

(Birds of a feather, Halladay and Utley.)

I agree with shopping Dom, except that I have a fear that we won't get someone better.

Yes, I'm sure Amaro would have still tendered him a contract knowing about the fractures in his back. If that makes you dopes feel better, keep on thinking that.

Some of you are so off the deep end it's ridiculous. Months and months of whining and you were wrong. Sack up and admit it for once.

Aren't we all excited to learn Rube's Plan B for the rotation? Is Bruce Chen too uncreative?

Well, if injury shortened careers disqualify guys from the HOF (Halladay pitched for 15 seasons, BTW), then Koufax and Dizzy Dean are disqualified, and if lack of longevity is the disqualifier, what's the cutoff - 16 year?

Well, then Catfish, Drysdale, Lefty Gomez, Kid Nichols, Pud Galvin, and Bob Lemon, among others, don't belong either.

Chris Branch ‏@ChrisBranchTNJ 1m
"For me, personally, he helped me understand the game more and gave me insight on how to become a top of the line starting pitcher." -Hamels


Corey Siedman last week: "I still expect Garret Jones to make something like that in free agency. Maybe like $4.5 million for a year or $7.5 for two."

Marlins officially inked him for 2yr/$7.75M today, nice call.

If Dominic Brown is being actively shopped, it's for three reasons, IMHO:

1) He's been approached and won't agree to an extension
2) Scott
3) Boras


If they sell now, they could be selling high, so why not?

Hey, Ice, thin skinned much?

Face it, if Roy had decided to pitch, Rube would have handed him millions to prove he couldn't. It's his most repeated M.O.

The fact that Roy took the decision away from Rube is one of the kindest things any player has ever done for a fan base.

30 YEARS WAR WITH BORAS

haha i tried to include the scam word but its blocked, well done bl.

Thank you Roy and the Halladay family for choosing to come to Philly. Whether you care or not, you're a great role model for everybody - on the field, and more importantly, off of it. Your work ethic and determination and always choosing to do the right thing are inspiring.

Thank you...and godspeed.

You know...we could always see if he wants to come back as a pitching coach. Sure, we'd have to fire a guy that was already fired twice in the last couple years but sometimes you gotta roll the dice.

awh - correct, but also, if Rube wants to deal Dom is the only talent on the team not in decline and saddled with a big contract.

If they're really shopping Dom, I very seriously doubt that their dislike of Boras has anything to do with it. Dom has four full years left before free agency.

From MLBTradeRumors: The White Sox are looking to move a starting pitcher, according to Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports. While the Sox would love to unload John Danks' contract, they recognize how difficult that would be. Passan adds that Jose Quintana and Hector Santiago are both available. In order to move Chris Sale, the White Sox would need a package even bigger than the one that expected to be needed to land David Price, according to Passan (Twitter links).

So um...Dom to the White Sox then?

Sad to see Halladay retire but, glad he made the decision.

Annoying as hell to have to read the stupid swipes at Amaro connected to this news.

I think Halladay would be a great instructor for ST. Being a full time pitching coach is a ton of work. He may not be ready for that.

Both Quintana and Santiago are solid young LHPs and Brown would be a good return and he'd love hitting in their ballpark.

Santiago makes me nervous because of the high walk rate. But I'd deal Brown for Quintana without batting an eye.

Selling high on Brown to get a starter isn't a bad idea, but there are many ways Rube can screw it up. First, by getting a lousy pitcher, second, by getting a worse player as Dom's LF replacement. I wouldn't mind giving Ruf a shot, or picking up Hart or Morse on a one-year "rebuild value" deal. Choo would be an even better addition, but that isn't happening; what I greatly fear is that Rube is shopping Brown so he can turn around and sign Nelson Cruz to a four-year, 60 million dollar contract; a high-strikeout player with little walk potential who's coming off a drug suspension, is in his thirties, and was formerly a major part of a WS contender sounds like just the kind of guy Rube would go for...

We need offense too...which worries me. If trading brown for Quintana is step one of two then OK. Go sign Nelson Cruz or something.

"If they're really shopping Dom, I very seriously doubt that their dislike of Boras has anything to do with it."


bap, who said it was "dislike".

Boras likes to take his clients to free agency. That's his MO, for the most part. Even when Holliday re-signed with the Cards it was as an FA.

So, selling high makes sense, but I find it hard to believe that they didn't at least explore the idea of an extension with Brown that buys out his first two years of FA. But that would take him past age 30, so if it happened I'm sure the idea was summarily dismissed by Brown/Boras.

The other possibility is that they really believe what we saw last season was Brown's upside, therefore - "sell high".

Brown to Seattle - straight up - for Taijuan Walker?

Not impressed by anyone the White Sox have unless they are giving up more then one player in return for brown.

Please, no Cruz--he's not the kind of player (defensive and on-base skills already eroding) I want to see signed to one of Rube's patented multi-year deals. I would go hardest for Morse on a short term deal, with Ruf on hand to step in if Morse gets injured again.

lorecore, that was a nice call by Corey on the Garret Jones deal.

I think Allen Thorn... has it right.

Grady Sizemore as an FA signing?

I wonder if they'd sign him and platoon him with Ruf in LF?

He'd be the LH OF bat many here would like to see on the team.

For that matter, Jason Kubel on a MiL deal would make sense too. You'd get to see if he has anything left in the tank.

It was stunning to see how quickly Halladay went from THE dominant pitcher in baseball to being almost unable to pitch at all. Just goes to show you, you can never take anything for granted. I don't think he was here long enough to retire his number, but I very much appreciated his fleeting display of utter brilliance while he was a Phillie.

I will be very surprised if Rube can pull off a deal involving Dom Brown that isn't awful for the franchise. Not that he is untradeable, just that . . . well, you know. . . He's not called "Rube" for no reason.

Chances DOM becomes a HOF w/ the Phils: 9.4%
Chances DOM becomes a HOF if traded: 97.7%

aksmith: "Face it, if Roy had decided to pitch, Rube would have handed him millions to prove he couldn't. It's his most repeated M.O."

You're right. I remember when Rube refused to let Ibanez walk at age 40. And re-signed Lidge in 2012. Oh, wait, that never happened.

jbird, it's spelled "r00b".

The last words I remember from Rube on the subject was that he was worried offering Doc a contract that didn't "insult" him. But admittedly, I haven't been paying a lot of attention in recent weeks.

I admit I only skimmed this, but it looks worth a read. On Dom Brown, by Murphy.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/Domonic-Brown-and-the-myth-of-the-one-good-month-.html

awh: "If they sell now, they could be selling high, so why not?"

Because "selling high" requires more than just "selling." It requires the "high" part, too, i.e., someone else to pay you a high price for your asset.

I actually am ok with the concept of shopping Brown. I am skeptical, however, about Amaro's ability to demand a quality return for Brown and to pass on a deal unless he gets it. I am further skeptical that Amaro's idea of a "quality return" matches up to what I, or the market generally, would consider a quality return.

But, Jack, didn't r00b just fleece Toronto for a relief pitcher?

Wasn't that a clear win?

C'mon, give him some credit. Remember the Lee trade? :)

I for one will still wear my Halladay jersey with pride.

Thanks, Doc, for the good years and for bringing your class to the organization. You'll be missed, but not forgotten. We also appreciate the graceful exit on your terms, however hard it must have been for you.

Wonder how many coaching offers will come Doc's way, and whether he will entertain any of them. I can't imagine for one moment he will be happy just walking away from the game.

OK, was the Brown rumor floated so the Phillies could gauge the reaction of the fanbase to trading him?

Also, who else do you think the Phils would have to include to get Chris Sale from the White Sox?

awh - if the Phils could get Walker for Brown, I'd do it in a second. Doubt that would be a possibility, however.

Brown, Biddle and Franco would probably do it.

I'm not sure Sox would deal Brown for Quintana & Santiago. I'm also not sure it would be a great trade for the Phils.

Both lefties overperformed last season. Neither has a high ceiling. Quintana's been with 3 organizations so far. His fastball tops at 91, his secondary stuff is OK, not great. Your basic, off-the-shelf finesse lefty. He projects as a 4th or 5th starter.

Santiago is the more interesting of the two because of his screwball. He's got an 8.7 K/9 in 224 MLB IP thanks to the scroogie. His fastball is 90-91 and he's got an OK curve. His command of the screwball is off and on, but if he could get it over consistently he could be a #3 and maybe a #2. If he stays where is he is now or backslides, he's a #4 or 5 or bullpen guy.

So, for argument's sake, let's say Santiago winds up a #4 and Quintana a #5. And Dom averages around .260 with 20-30 HRs a year and a below-average glove. Would you make that trade?

Only posting this cos it's the offseason, and because it's an interesting look at how things play out between new school and old school in a front office.

Man, the Mariners have it bad. Shocking politics.

http://seattletimes.com/html/mariners/2022420240_mariners08xml.html

"But, Jack, didn't r00b just fleece Toronto for a relief pitcher?"

"Fleece" is a bit extreme. They gave up a useful backup catcher & got a high-ceiling reliever who, in 4 major league seasons, has had exactly one-half of one good season.

Can of Corn: I'd think most of the offers would come at the Toronto A-ball pitching coach level.

He's got a history of mentoring, but no obvious official coaching experience.

Also, most players like to take several years off between retirement and coaching. I imagine being too close to the sport could result in some very mixed feelings, and wouldn't allow him to develop the sense of detachment necessary to be a good coach.

Also, how's this for a spitball trade?

Dom Brown and [mid-grade prospect du jour] in exchange for Chris Sale and John Danks - taking on all salary obligations for Danks.

Sox are reportedly very keen to be out from under Danks' ~$14MM/year, and Sale only costs about $6MM/year, with club options for 18/19.

Salary would shoot up in the short term, but solves our SP issues nicely, we could (theoretically) convert Danks into a long reliever/spot starter, and he's actually done better against RHB than LHB recently.

Admittedly, it doesn't leave a lot of cash lying around to address the sudden absence in LF, but we could try a LF platoon with Ruf (shivers run down my spine at the thought - and not the good kind) and one of the low-D, high-power LHB outfielders in the $3-5MM/year range.

Why would Ruben be interested in Sale? He was only 11-14 last year, what a bum.

I remember being at a networking event at Yards brewery for Halladay's no-hitter against the Reds. This giant projection screen was initially supposed to show the logos of all of the sponsors of the event. However a group of us that was refreshing our phones saw the no-hitter in progress, so we laid seige to the Audio/Visual equipment and hooked it up to show the game on the projection screen. For the next hour, networking went straight downhill and was replaced by rowdy cheering. It was so much fun, and makes me think how much I miss those fun seasons!


Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

EST. 2005

Top Stories

HardballTalk

Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel

CSG