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Monday, December 09, 2013

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""There were times in the seasons before where later in the game it would be a challenge. ... Things were starting to change a little bit. "


OK,, that quote bothers me. It goes directly to a topic that was discussed ad nauseum here, that Halladay was being left in the game too long by Manuel.

If what he is saying is true, then he may very well have shortened his own career by not saying more to the trainers and manager about his physical ability.

Just sayin'...

awh: Yes, because he was in line for sainting after the 3 miracles he performed while pitching for the Mariners' minor-league systems.

Oh, you say he didn't? And you further say that he's had massive control issues his entire career, at every level?

That can't be right. Everybody knows that the only reason players in red pinstripes do poorly is because they were misused or poorly-developed by the franchise's minor-league buffoons!

And Jack too, incidentally.

Buster, since when did you become an organizational tool, errr apologist?

Thanks for the memories Doc. A true professional in every sense of the word.

Seriously, though, I have no doubt that there's two sides to the story.

The Phillies organization is NOT one that has a reputatation for turning out bullpen pieces like M&M's. It was years between Madson and Bastardo, and who was the last decent guy before Madson.

The fact that they now have a few young arms (Diekman, DeFartus, Rosenberg, et al.) who may pan out may be die as much to luck as anything else, because it doesn't change the fact that they had a long drought in the organization before that.

We can only speculate, but in this case, there's probably a grain of truth to both sides.

Can't help but wonder what this team would have been able to do the last few years if the medical staff and trainers would have been a lot more proficient starting with handling Utley's chronic knee problems, Howard's Achilles, and Halladay's shoulder.

Likely it wouldn't have change the ultimate outcome last year or in '12 (making the playoffs) but certainly would have helped them field more competitive teams.

" Not sure if I'd buy into Mayberry and Morrison comparison. I'd like to see a full season on Morrison before making that call."

Chase Trillo, I didn't make the comparison. I merely pointed to a website where it is being made.

Doc places add in the DN:

" heartfelt thanks to Philadelphia

To the City of Philadelphia, and Phillies fans everywhere:

My family and I want to thank you for four amazing years. We have so many great memories of our time with the Phillies, on and off the field, and we will cherish those always. We want to also express our appreciation to my teammates and the wonderful people of the Phillies organization, especially Ruben Amaro and David Montgomery, for all they have done for us. And to the fans, thank you for always making us feel welcome here and for all your incredible support at Citizens Bank Park.

Roy Halladay
#34

There's a wide spectrum of agreement and disagreement with how the Phillies FO runs things, awh.

It's possible to be at such a point well shy of both "agreeing with everything the FO says" and "attributing every possible failing to the organization."

Brown's development was definitely mishandled by the organization. However, you'll notice that - by and large - the Phillies tend to wait too long to promote prospects, rather than the other way around.

Aumont was not promoted too early. He's a guy who's gotten by in the minors on an unhittable pitch and incredibly shaky command (hasn't posted a season-long BB/9 below 4.1 since 2008 A-ball). Yes, the Phillies probably shouldn't have tried to convert him back to a starter in 2010... But that was 2010, when he was 21.

But seriously. Every employee everywhere knows: if you're not performing up to snuff, at least underperform in the manner that your boss (the pitching coach at whatever his current level was, in this case) is telling you to do so. Otherwise, it should come as no surprise when you get demoted/fired. You can try to talk to the boss about why you have a different view on the subject, but if he doesn't come around, or offer you another alternative, you shut up and do what he tells you, since you're not doing well enough to legitimately say that your way is better.

Day 1 of the winter meetings just about down. Nothing happening. This year like the others, all Rube will do is make Rule 5 selection(s). He shouldn't even be there.

And why are they shopping Brown? Trading him for pitching with no offensive replacement would only make the offense more inept.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-end-of-the-bench/

Pretty compelling article and analysis that analyzed 2012 team's back-end of rosters including their marginal bench players, marginal starters, and marginal relievers. Basically the Phils had a below average bench and the worst production of their backend pitching staff.

Part of that is on the lack of development of prospects but a big part of it is Amaro's almost complete failure at filling out a roster in the offseason and managing the roster during the season.

This offseason is shaping up to be no different as the bench is shaping up to be a bunch of crummy veterans and a bunch of minor league free agent stiffs.

No doubt of that MG. Garrett Jones would have been a nice addition.

Day 1 of the 2014-2021 meetings will probably see the announcement of a Phillies veteran and rumored shopping of Brown.

e.g. Retirement of a Phillies veteran

MG - Those of us who suffered through last season didn't need an article to tell us Rube assembled the largest collection of riffraff in the game.

awh - Thanks for posting the text of Doc's ad. I tried to cut and paste the link from my phone but wasn't able to post here (happens sometimes).


More tributes to Doc from his Phillies teammates, via Chris Branch on Twitter:

“Roy was a great player and a very special friend. To have caught both his perfect game and playoff no-hitter is something I will remember for the rest of my life. I wish him and his family all the best in retirement.” -- Carlos Ruiz

“He was a special player, and it was my great fortune to be able and watch him pitch. Hopefully he enjoys retirement.” -- Jamie Moyer.

"He was a great teammate, but an even better father, friend and role model." -- Raul Ibanez.

"Roy was the most prepared, ferociously competitive pitcher I've ever been around and was the epitome of professionalism." -- Rich Dubee.

"Roy was, without a doubt, one of the greatest competitors I ever had the pleasure of being around." -- Charlie Manuel.

Trade Idea

Phillies Trade:
Domonic Brown
J.Papelbon +5mil a Year
P.Aumont

Diamond Backs Trade:
Zeke Spruill RHP/SP
Jake Bartlett RHP/Relief Pitcher
Ender Incerate OF
Kevin Munson RHP

So this trade brings you a slew of "young" and "controllable" pitchers. From my short reading on Spruill you could probably use him in a MLB rotation sooner then later. Also, Bartlett and Munson look like relief pitchers that would help the farm now and be in the majors sooner then later. We all know Ender and he had a solid year once returned to the Diamondbacks.

I again only endorse trading Brown if it brings Ruben to target a guy like Choo. Lastly, I like the idea in the rumors that the phillies were talking to Eric O'flaherty. Bring him into the pen and in ST allow the guys to compete to see who should close.


Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1 56m
Outside execs say Brown's defense enough of a problem, hole in swing that might not get kind SP #Phillies want
Retweeted by Chris Branch

So Doc didn't have the flu after all?

DPat never changes. The off season ends on Black Friday, and the Winter Meetings end at 4:47PM of day 1.

So, in other words, we're either not going to be able to "sell high" on Dom right now, or, worse yet, his "high" isn't worth much at all...


(though, better take is that likely every team is going to tell you why he's not nearly as good as the Phillies think, to drive down the price)

Philibuster: You act as though these two things are mutually exclusive, that either a) Aumont just sucks on his own, or b) the Phillies have systemic issues in developing players.

Why is that the case? Isn't the most likely explanation actually that both are true?

Matt Gelb ‏(@magelb):

Asked about Miguel Gonzalez in the rotation, Amaro said, "We can't necessarily count on it."

Amaro said he did not engage Detroit in trade talks for Doug Fister, who was dealt to Washington.

Jack: Why is both any more likely an explanation than either/or? I get that you think the Phillies FO is dysfunctional, but attributing a failure to them - when the indicator in question was a failure in another system as well - seems to reflect your bias more than any verifiable fact.

Incidentally, I never said that the Phillies didn't have major issues in player development. Just that Aumont has lost all credibility with me when it comes to his complaints and attempts at shirking responsibility for his failures. If he goes on to have a HoF career with another organization, after spending significant time in their MiLB system, then maybe we can say the onus was on the Phillies.

However, it's not looking like that's the case, and lots of prospects suck for lots of organizations - for every organization, actually - with more starting in each draft class. Just because you get a front-row seat to see a Phillies prospect doing so doesn't mean his case is one unique to the Phillies.

Philibuster: That's fine, but someone with no credibility to you can still be telling the truth generally, even if you don't think it applies to him.

So you think Aumont sucks. Aumont says the Phillies suck at developing players. Again, both of those can be correct, regardless of whether you think Aumont is "shirking responsibility" for his failures.

And I wasn't indicting the Phillies solely on the basis of Aumont's failure. I was saying I think it's actually likely that both things are true because a) I agree with you that Aumont sucks, and b) the inability of the Phillies to develop many players at all over the last half-decade or so.

Now you can believe otherwise. That's fine. But your insistence that Aumont can't be right because he himself sucks is a logical fallacy.

So...other teams actually analyze stuff?

I'm sure Rube's counter to the comments on the hole in his swing was "But he hit 27 HRs last year!"

So if the defector cant be counted to be a starter then they need two SP's ?

" Not sure if I'd buy into Mayberry and Morrison comparison. I'd like to see a full season on Morrison before making that call."

Chase Trillo, I didn't make the comparison. I merely pointed to a website where it is being made.


Fair enough, awh.

O'Flaherty would be a nice addition provided he could pitch sometime early in the season.

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