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Tuesday, November 12, 2013

Comments

If practically any sports media figure other than Eskin were floating this rumor ...

Nope. I'm not buying. It's an interesting hypothetical, though. But while I'm not at all opposed to trading Dom, I'd hope it would be for a younger player. There's no future in Bautista.

If practically any sports media figure other than Eskin were floating this rumor ...

Nope. I'm not buying. It's an interesting hypothetical, though. But while I'm not at all opposed to trading Dom, I'd hope it would be for a younger player. There's no future in Bautista.

I'm not sure how I would feel about that trade. My first reaction is not to like it, but I also still believe Dom Brown is more of a complimentary player.. not really a star.

Anyone see the latest from Rosenthal?:

Apparently the Bosox could be the 2/20 bidder for Chooch.

also, Chooch apparently has an exemption for Adderal now.

Because the Phils need to get younger, a Brown-for-Bautista trade doesn't make sense, unless Brown is not a good ball player. Remember, it's not just "young" that the team needs; it's "young and good".

I don't think Brown is that good. He's OK at the plate, but not great, and clueless otherwise.

If the Phils trade Brown, I prefer it be for a young player like Jennings. If the trade is for Bautista, though, then, consistent with the Byrd signing, Amaro is simply building a bridge to 2016 when both Byrd's and Bautista's deals end.

The Phils would be better in '14 and '15 with Bautista than with Brown. Bautista should provide an immediate boost to the lineup. Another move like trading for Bourjos then could give the Phils a solid OF defense.

Keep Chooch, 2/20 for a proven catcher is OK to match. It seems high but so does every deal and rumor now.
Keep Brown, too. Homegrown , young, he's got too much promise to cut loose.

Disliking Dom is not a reason to like this hypothetical trade.

Think what else they could possibly acquire if they made Brown part of the discussion. That's the reason to dislike it. What purpose does Bautista serve to this franchise going forward?

If you're going to sell off one of your few young, controllable guys with a WAR over 1, at least get something in return that would help the team long-term. Bautista would help a 75-win team win a few more games, suck up $14 million in payroll, and then he'll be gone. If he would even be able to stay on the field.

Only way this makes sense is if they'd get him to play 3rd and sign/trade for another OF (and blow through the luxury tax). I'm not even sure he can capably play 3rd anymore. But it's the only way something like this would make the slightest bit of sense. We all know they're not hitting the tax, though.

Only trade I want Dom included in is one for Stanton or CarGo...Getting older bringing in more money on a bad team is a recipe for disaster and one that could doom this franchise for even more years than they're already doomed. I am starting to re-hate this franchise again. They are making it incredibly hard to want to root for them.

Is RAJ trying for a sequel to the Wheeze Kids of 83?

This isn't funny anymore Ruben, STOP IT!

Iceman - Agreed. It only makes sense if they additionally sign say D. Murphy as a 4th OF to platoon with Ruf in LF and retaining Mayberry.

Even then that still leaves the Phils with a gaping hole at C and a rotation/bullpen both full of question marks and very short on depth without much additional cash to spend if they take on Bautista's $14M salary.

Mets fan checking in as curious to see how Phillies fans feel about this one.

To state the obvious, its a great move short term, but your team would be incredibly screwed long term.

Amaro really reminds me of Omar Minaya. That's good and bad, but probably more bad.

Anyway, good luck this offseason.

This would be a great trade short term as we would be adding a power right hand bat that tears up left hand pitching. If you put Batistsa between Utley and a revitalized Howard then our lineup dramatically improves.

It could be a bad trade long term if you are sold on Dom Brown, which I am not. Bautista also has a very reasonable salary, especially compared to what lesser free agent outfielders are going to get this year. He will make much less than Nelson Cruz over or Beltran over the next couple years and is a better hitter.

Why not go for it with one last surge from this core. If it doesn't get us a World Series we'll have a ton of payroll coming off the books in a few years and can then do a total rebuild with Amaro gone.

What's the oldest slowest team ever to play in major league baseball?

Yeah. We can beat that.

byrd will have 2 years to make the wall of fame. can he do it? mb if he can get an adderall exemption.

Not sure I would hate this trade given that if you are dumb enough to keep an expensive, aging core, then adding a guy like Bautista is a decent way to give the old guys another shot. What should be frightening to all of us is something that nobody has brought up yet- what other player(s) will Amaro be stupid enough to include in this potential trade?

If the plan is to win now, then Bautista will help facilitate that more than Dom Brown. Imagine Utley, Bautista, and Howard is succession. Old, but capable to putting up runs. Especially if you sit Howard and insert Ruf against lefties.

@GM-Carson I don't think there's any doubt that is Amaro's plan. His rear end is in the line, the future be damned. As he has famously said, he "doesn't do five year plans." Or even year-to-year ones, for that matter. Just because you went to Stanford, it doesn't mean your sharp.

GM: especially if revere leads off and is often on base.

These rumors are fun and all, but this news comes from Eskin...and is definitely false. https://mobile.twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/400582110718611456?screen_name=JonHeymanCBS

Beer Leaguer has to worry about the spelling in a tweet? Ridiculous. You have to disrespect an interesting story?

Eskin has been breaking stories since he reported phenom Ric Shu was replacing HOFer Mike Schmidt at 3B, and Number 20 was moving to first.

I believe something was discussed. Just thinking about getting rid of DBrown is a very interesting story no matter how you spell it!

So this team is a World Series contender in 2014? I just don't see it. Was the window just pulled shut and not locked?

Don't waste time on this ridiculous suggestion. There is no truth to it. Respectable baseball people from both sides have said there is absolutely no truth to this.

Moving on.

I'd rather keep Dom and use the 13 million dollars elsewhere.

STOP IMAGINING RYAN HOWARD BEING HEALTHY AND GOOD.

Typing in CAPS is lame, but holyhell, I want to strangle people who keep saying this year after year.

I don't get that either. In what world is Ryan Howard even going to be a shell of his former self? We sure know that he will get the at bats to try though!

When you remove yourself from the context for where the Phillies are right now, a DOM for Bautista trade certainly is a pretty interesting trade idea. I think the value of both add up pretty close to each other and could definitely happen.

The fact that it technically 'adds up' is why this scares the hell out of me a lot more than a Howard Eskin tweet should (JW can't be happy about his blog using sources like this, pitiful).

I've long suspected that Amaro is GM'ing to save his job a hell of a lot more than he is trying to build a franchise back into a championship, this proposed trade would 100% confirm it.

"Just thinking about getting rid of DBrown is a very interesting story no matter how you spell it!"


This could be, perhaps, the only reason, which is tied to the possibility that the Phillies may have approached Brown about an extension, been told by Boras that he wants to either test FA or wants an AAV and number of years that the Phillies think is crazy, and they've made the determination that they're not going to be able to extend him, so they're seeing what they can get in return.

That's why they may have offered him to the Fish for Stanton.

So, if the fish realize they can't extend Stanton then they'd listen, but then they insist on talking to Boras about extending Brown if they trade for him and find out they can't do that either, so there's no way that trade gets done.

DBacks want to trade with the Cubs for Schierholtz.


And out genius GM let the guy go for nothing - based on 73 PA.

r00b....

Trading Brown and more for Bautista seems like exactly the type of move a desperate GM would make to try and win a couple more games this season at the expense of the future.

So it sounds totally reasonable that Amaro would try to do something like this.

There is more nuance to a deal for Brown here than most people are mentioning (which doesn’t surprise me because nuance is not something many on here can appreciate).

On one level- of course it is trading a 25 year old for a 33 year old which on an aging team is obviously not a good move. Especially for a 33 year old that has missed some significant time the past two years for injuries.

However in Dom Brown you have a 25 year old who always seems to have some kind of nagging injury nipping at his heels. Also, you can say that he seemed to take a big step forward last year but it is important to note that a lot of that came in May and he faded a little when Howard went down, and his injuries started popping up.

Bautista has 35-40 home run capability if he stays healthy and adding him and Byrd to the lineup would really balance out the lineup quite a bit.

Where the trade would really work is that you would improve the bench quite a bit if they moved Asche there. Bautista is a butcher at third but against lefties he could move to third, if you keep Mayberry he could slide into right, and then with Ruf at 1st you have a pretty formidable lineup against lefties.

It feels like at first blush this is a trade to be against but it could have positives to the Phillies. I just don’t think I’d do it—especially if the price is Brown AND any pitching depth we may have in the minors- which is basically Biddle.

Bautista is breaking down, but then again, Brown hasn't been able to stay healthy either. Deal would seem like Amaro going for one last hurrah with the current core. Not deathly opposed to trading Brown, but I would hope for someone a little younger than Bautista considering Brown is young and cost-controlled.
-
This is another example of how most GM's in trouble don't feel a duty to operate the franchise as a going concern and instead are more worried about the short-term and saving their own skin. It's a tad unethical. Amaro should have learned that at Stanford.
-
Also, a few days back I joked about getting the guys with good PEDs after hiring the "stat" (former drug program) guy. With Byrd in house and Bautista rumors, looks like the team is taking it seriously.

(yes, Bautista hasn't failed a test. He's just a guy who gets suspiscion for having a big stat jump between Pitt and Toronto like when Ortiz left Minny for Boston. . . )

So you've got an aging team which won only 73 games last year and which our GM has previously acknowledged needs to get younger. And his first move of the off-season is to sign 36-year old Marlon Byrd. Then we're linked to 37-year old A.J. Pierzynski. Now there's a rumor that we are considering dealing our only good player under 30 for a 33-year old guy with only 2 years left on his contract.

This is more than just RAJ being an idiot (which he is). It's RAJ being a lame duck who knows he might get canned if the team doesn't contend next year. So he's going all-in for next year even though there's probably not a single combination of realistic moves that would actually turn us into contenders next year.

This team will be the Houston Astros in 3 years.

Who will Roob target next? Jeter, Chipper Jones and Brett Favre?

The true gatekeepers of the franchise are the owners, not the fans. Rest assured that the owners have Amaro on a short-enough leash that he cannot seriously damage the value of the franchise in order to save his job.

Honest question - has Eskin ever broken a story about the Phillies before that turned out to be true? I can't remember any in recent memory. Therefore, I'm wondering where the validity of Eskin's source is.

"Rest assured that the owners have Amaro on a short-enough leash that he cannot seriously damage the value of the franchise in order to save his job."

If only I believed that. Ed Wade managed to last 7 years without ever making a single playoff appearance. And, even after that, the owners still liked him enough to re-hire him after he had been away for a few years, ruining the Astros franchise.

My honest opinion is that, with a contract that lasts through 2015, RAJ will not get fired no matter what happens next year. But I'm sure he at least THINKS he could be fired with another disastrous season & will proceed in a manner consistent with that belief.

***Bautista has 35-40 home run capability if he stays healthy and adding him and Byrd to the lineup would really balance out the lineup quite a bit.***

He's 33, coming off 2 injury-plagued seasons where he averaged 105 games a year and hit 27-28 HRs each year. Why would he suddenly get fully healthy and hit 40 HRs? We couldn't even DH him to keep him rested like an AL club could. I know this is hard to grasp but aging ballplayers with multiple chronic injuries dont tend to suddenly get healthy and perform like they did in their 20s.

"Therefore, I'm wondering where the validity of Eskin's source is."

My understanding is that he uses the same source as DPatrone.

> What would exactly be waiting for us on the other side of the bridge in 2016?
> Posted by: Jack

If it's the Ben Franklin Bridge, then it would be the Camden Riversharks.

We might be the worst ever team in "win now" mode.

It's all great to say you want to "win now." But you've got a 70-win team on your hands. You can wish it so all you want, but you're not winning now.

Maybe Rube is trying to acquire as many injury riddled veterans as possible so that when they inevitably get injured and the team loses, he can tell the FO "See, had they all stayed healthy, we'd be a playoff team...just bad luck, Monty"...

***Bautista has 35-40 home run capability if he stays healthy and adding him and Byrd to the lineup would really balance out the lineup quite a bit.***

He's 33, coming off 2 injury-plagued seasons where he averaged 105 games a year and hit 27-28 HRs each year. Why would he suddenly get fully healthy and hit 40 HRs? We couldn't even DH him to keep him rested like an AL club could. I know this is hard to grasp but aging ballplayers with multiple chronic injuries dont tend to suddenly get healthy and perform like they did in their 20s.

Posted by: NEPP | Wednesday, November 13, 2013 at 10:32 AM

If Howard, Halladay, and Utley can just stay healthy...Oh wait, that was for the 2013 season.

NEPP: First off- you can stuff your condescending tone up your a$$. Because of course he may not just get healthy. I never stated he absolutely would. Just said "IF" he did. But using "IF" does not quantify making the trade or that I think it would happen.

Secondly- he played 92 games in 2012 and hit 27 home runs. In 2013 he played 119 and hit 28. That was battling with wrist and hip injuries. So it is not crazy to think he could get back to 35 if he played a full season. I do think his days of being 40-50 are done.

***First off- you can stuff your condescending tone up your a$$.***

As soon as you stop white knighting every FO move, I'll get right on that.

Also, why do you think he'd suddenly be healthy? Other than because "It'd be great if he did", there is no reason to think he would and tons of reasons to think he wont (See also: HOWARD, Ryan).

Yesterday, there was a discussion on Beerleaguer about the idea that the Phillies might be trying to turn their 73-win team into a "true-talent" 80 win team, with the hope of getting lucky and winning 90. Since this seems like a pretty accurate assessment of what RAJ is trying to do this off-season, then I think it bears mention: the Phillies DID get quite lucky by losing only 89 games last year. Their Pythagorean records says they were a true-talent 96-loss team. To turn them into a true-talent 80-win team would require significant across-the-board upgrades.

NEPP: How the fvck did I "white knight" the move? I didn't white knight the Byrd signing and I didn't white knight the Bautista rumor. In fact, I even said, "I just don’t think I’d do it—especially if the price is Brown AND any pitching depth we may have in the minors- which is basically Biddle." All I did was list what few positives there would be to the deal and then still said no. Like seriously- are you just choosing to make up your own arguments now.

And the reason I said about the injury is because of course that is any thought you have to have when you outline the pros and cons of a trade. Look if Dom Brown can stay healthy he may have 30+ home run potential. But people wouldn't jump all over that because he is 25? Do we flat out ignore his injury history?

Look if Bautista is a guy who got hurt every single year missing 40-50 games then yeah it is a completely ridiculous to say "Well if he is healthy..." because that is ignoring a huge red flag. If his injury was a wrist two straight years then that is a problem. For example, the idea of blowing off the Howard injury two straight years is that they both occurred to his legs which can create a trend. A wrist, then a hip isn't necessarily a trend.

***Their Pythagorean records says they were a true-talent 96-loss team. To turn them into a true-talent 80-win team would require significant across-the-board upgrades.***

That's the key there......turning a 66 win club into an 80 win club is fairly difficult to begin with. And those 66 wins including getting a very solid campaign out of Utley, a breakout season from Dom and Lee having another great year. Basically EVERYTHING has to fall into place with very minor injuries and the Vets that are performing have to keep performing at that high level.

I dont see it but then I'm not a GM like Rube.

***Look if Dom Brown can stay healthy he may have 30+ home run potential. But people wouldn't jump all over that because he is 25? Do we flat out ignore his injury history? ***

Personally, I wouldn't. I see Brown as another guy who seemingly cannot stay healthy for a full MLB season. Some guys just aren't built for it and he, so far, appears to be one of them...he's never been a full-season guy even going back into the minors where he was always dinged up with leg issues. How much of that is poor conditioning, how much is bad luck and how much is it just Brown being a faberge egg?

I don't have a problem trading Brown.

I do have a problem trading Brown for an aging player who seems to be in decline with health concerns in the last 2 seasons.

If we are going to trade one of the few younger, cost-controlled assets with value on our major league roster, I'd like Amaro to target something with longer-term upside.

"I know this is hard to grasp but aging ballplayers with multiple chronic injuries dont tend to suddenly get healthy and perform like they did in their 20s."

Interesting theory, but Ruben has been earning millions to carry out a plan based entirely on aging ballplayers with multiple chronic injuries suddenly getting healthy and performing like they did in their 20s.

"My understanding is that he uses the same source as DPatrone."

BAP~ Funny you should mention that. I heard early last night the Phils are working on a "major trade" as it was told to me. I thought nothing of it.

If this is it, I still think nothing of it. I hope it doesn't happen. I would not trade Brown for Bautista even-up, nor would I trade Brown + for him.

However there are caveats. 1. Bautista supposedly is able to play 3rb. I fthis trade were to happen, could they possibly go after McCann to replace Brown's LH bat? 2. If Mayberry's being tendered, where does that leave Ruf. 3. If Bautista plays 3B instead of the OF, what other OF'der do they target?

Do I think the Phils are busy? Yes. Am I hearing anything which I believe to be true? No. In any cae, I think RAJ will screw things up. He's already continued the last 2 off-seasons' poor performance by signing Byrd.

"Funny you should mention that."

It actually wasn't that funny until you responded that your source indeed as tipped you off of a major trade.

BAP looks like a comedic genius now.

Jose Bautista can play third base in the same sense that Michael Young could play third base and Delmon Young could play right field.

The Phillies actually have a halfway decent young player at 3rd base, with the top prospect in their system waiting in the wings and probably less than a year away from the majors. Why on earth would they acquire Bautista to play 3rd base? They'd be acquiring him to play LF.

bap - Rube said he was going to be "creative" this winter - nothing creative about trading a 25 year old LF for a 33 year old LF. Bautista at 3B, though, would be creative.

Yeah if they acquired Bautista to be on the team it is clearly to play right field with him occasionally playing third. He is a butcher there- everyone knows that- but for some games a year you can probably live with it.

If they do tender Mayberry a contract (I still hope that is false) AND this trade would go through that gives you an outfield of Byrd-Revere-Bautista-Ruf-Mayberry. You could run an infield of Asche-Rollins-Utley-Howard.

On days lefties pitch you could move Ruf to first, Mayberry to right, Bautista to third and really have a heavily powered lineup against the lefties.

As I said- there are some positives that could come out of the deal but they probably aren't enough to outweigh the cons.

Also, of course you'd rather trade Brown for a younger guy but why would other teams necessarily do that?

TTI starts his post with an insult to "many on here" for being unable to appreciate nuance.

Then he flips out when someone uses a condescending tone with him.

Someone mentioned it yesterday (may have been MG) but if you lose out on Ruiz a good deal might be trying to shake Chris Ianetta loose from the Angels. He has good OBP numbers and could give you 10-15 home runs. Maybe then sign someone like a Dionner Navarro to be part of the catching team as well if he would come cheaply.

I'm 26, BTW.

"(which doesn’t surprise me because nuance is not something many on here can appreciate)."


A little self-serving arrogance, TTI?

And Lorecore to the rescue of exactly the zero people I singled out- which would've been directly condescending.

I do appreciate that it took you a while to compose that response. Kudos to you. Only took 40 minutes this time.

NOW THAT is condescending- and I will stick the tone of it up my own a$$.

awh: Years of reading things on here. There's not a problem with people that view things in black or white. And there are legitimately are people who handle nuance better than others. That's not an arrogant or self-serving thing to point out. In fact, I would've included you in the category of those that do.

Also, of course you'd rather trade Brown for a younger guy but why would other teams necessarily do that?

Posted by: The Truth Injection | Wednesday, November 13, 2013 at 11:19 AM

Teams trade young talent for young talent all the time...At least acquire someone who isn't 33, declining, and had 2 straight injury-marred seasons. I mean, that does seem to be Amaro's MO nowadays, but a 25 year old OF coming off a 27-HR season has value. I'm sure Amaro could find a team willing to trade some younger assets for him, if he "got creative."

This would work if it was a few years ago. Not now though when your core team is 34+ years old & on declines.

Amaro never learns

loves the splashy headlines, and the high profile transaction

when its all said and done - whats left -- nada on the ML roster and bupkis on in the minors...

Desmond Jennings was a name I've seen mentioned a few times but would the Rays do that? Other teams know Brown gets hurt and they know he is kind of bad defensively too.

I don't know that the market for Brown is as big as we think or would like it to be.

That was funny. TTI gives an opinion and gets called a FO shill. And then he gets called condescending. Wow.

If you don't froth at the mouth over every FO move, you clearly are in the bag for the Front Office.

I don't see how a "win now" mode is going to actually win now, unless Rube takes Wharrgarbl AEC's advice and uses an unlimited payroll to sign every marquee free agent, MLB and international. So yeah, trading for Bautista won't get it done.

"I don't know that the market for Brown is as big as we think or would like it to be."

That may well be. So you don't trade him. It's not like there is an urgency to trade the team's best young player.

Crasnick tweeted that other clubs told him the Phillies were willing to listen on Brown. That doesn't sound like they are desperate to trade him. It actually sounds like what a good amount of posters on here have been saying this offseason - that they would move Brown in the right deal.

And I doubt very seriously I would trade Dom for Desmond Jennings. Jennings certainly isn't bad, but he has been a pretty significant disappointment after 2 full years. He's still only 26, so it's not out of the question that he could improve his game in the next year or two. But the exact same thing could be said about Dom.

Well, I have no idea if the Rays would trade Jennings...but I fail to see how the best value you can get back for a 26-year old All-Star OF is Jose Bautista.

Here's a crazy idea...Rumor is that Profar is on the trade block for real this winter. Why not try to go after him?

The Tigers are supposedly considering dealing Scherzer.

Maybe Jennings could be had.

What about targeting players who are nearing FA and not going to re-sign with their current teams?

I don't really know, I'm not privy to the info that MLB GMs are...but I seriously doubt this is the most creative thing Amaro could think of to improve the team.

I just don't see the upside in dealing Brown for Bautista. Long-term it further cripples the club's prospects. Short-term there might be a small boost to the 2014 win total. Or Bautista could struggle through another injury-plagued season and only play 100 games, which becomes an increasingly likely scenario as he gets older.

Is there a single player in all of baseball that isn't available "in the right deal"?

Mike Trout

IF the Angels could unload Pujols and Hamilton's contracts they might think about it.

Yeah, that was the name that came to mind for me too...however, what if Mike Rizzo calls up Jerry Depoto and says "I'll give you Strasburg and Harper for Trout...". I think they'd at least discuss the deal.

Adding Bautista and Byrd (even assuming career norms for Marlon, and 3-year-average for Jose) would solve 2 of our primary issues in outfield D and right-handed (power!) bats to balance out the lineup. Honestly, neither Byrd nor Bautista are that bad against RHP either, but they're markedly better against the lefties.

That said, it doesn't mean that it solves all of our problems with lineup construction, and the risk of their averaging 100-110 games/player is pretty high.

Do I trade Brown + Nobodies (or maybe some of our "coveted" young relief corps?) for Bautista? Ehhhhh. I guess I could. I don't have faith that Brown is ever going to post a season better than his 2013. Maybe he manages to go uninjured one season and throws up an .850 OPS once, but his defense is probably never going to improve.

Their biggest need appears to be SP. Could we manage a trade for Bautista+ (maybe prospect/s, maybe BP arm/s) in exchange for Brown and Kendrick (possibly after inking him to a 2/3-year deal)? That sounds more feasible. It would also lessen the salary impact on the Phillies (though we'd still need another SP to make up for KK), while still providing some relief for the Jays to further enable them to pick up top-tier FAs.

That'd still be a tough sell, but I could see it being a net positive for both teams, and coming out fairly even in the "who won this trade" bible.

NEPP, if I was Dipoto I wouldn't do it for a simple reason:

So far, Trout has been healthy, and Strasburg and Harper have had some issues.

Just my opinion.

NEPP and Chris, Clayton Kershaw would be on my list too.

I still argue that whether you bring in Bautista or not the biggest issue is fixing the pitching staff. I know the young guys seemed to be putting it together at the end of the year last year but that can't be trusted. I'd like a guy like a Benoit or Mujica if you think he can get right again.

awh: Mike Trout for Clayton Kershaw would get talked about.

Kershaw would likely need to come with a prospect or two, since he's close to FA and Trout is cheeeeeeeeep.

Hannigan or Wieters... Both allegedly available, but who would you prefer (factoring in cost of acquisition)?

Whats Vlad G up to these days?

I would trade Kershaw for Trout in a second, so Kershaw wouldn't be on my list.

Just too much uncertainty for pitchers, regardless of track record. One awkward pitch and he could never be the same again.

Not to mention Trout is almost years younger, and farther away from free agency.

*almost 4 years younger


awh: Mike Trout for Clayton Kershaw would get talked about.

Posted by: The Truth Injection | Wednesday, November 13, 2013 at 12:21 PM

I would trade Kershaw for Trout...if I were the Dodgers.

Hanigan would come much cheaper, but Wieters has a lot more upside, and this franchise desperately needs younger players with upside.

So I guess Wieters, if I had to pick one, despite his rather horrendous 2013.

Trout for Kershaw, Kemp, and Ethier, with the Dodgers picking up big chunks of Kemp & Ethier's salaries. I'd probably do that if I were the Angels.

'buster, Wieters is a Boras client, and looks to be one who would test the market in two years. So, he'd only be a two year rental. What do you give up for that?

Hanigan, while probably not as talented as Wieters, is an FA at the end of 2014, so he only makes sense if you can extend him. Also, he's 33.

I guess salary and payroll also go into it. Hannigan's only on the books for one more year at $1.33MM. Wieters is arb eligible for 2 more years, probably ending up in the $7-10 range depending on results (and a Boras client, so probably not getting extended before FA).

Trout for Kershaw and the Dodgers pick up Pujol's contract...that'd probably at least get talked about...especialy if Kershaw were locked up long term (or an extension was part of the deal)

jbird: "Also, a few days back I joked about getting the guys with good PEDs after hiring the "stat" (former drug program) guy. With Byrd in house and Bautista rumors, looks like the team is taking it seriously."

The New Old Moneyball: Build a team who can stay 1 step ahead of MLB's drug testing program.

Also, Hanigan crapped the bed last year as far as hitting is concerned.

Is that a red flag, or just an anomaly?

Hannigan's lone offensive contribution is working walks, while Wieters can slug well for a catcher.

So its basically not even a question worth asking what catcher the Phils would pursue.

awh: See, I'm not convinced the only way either makes sense is if they're in it for the long haul.

Even assuming we don't come up with an internal option by the end of their current deals (I can't remember his name now, but wasn't there a Phillies prospect in the low levels that scouts were really high on?), the 2015 catching FA market looks more balanced (if devoid of big names) than this year's, and I'm sure some of the guys from this year are going to end up on 1-year deals too.

Lorecore: Except it kind of is, because they have drastically different acquisition costs and salary factors.

One of which I explicitly mentioned in the initial question (and is probably the larger factor)?

Kershaw and Puig? I still dont think I'd trade trade Trout.

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