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Thursday, October 03, 2013

Comments

> People want to trade DOM for someone better than DOM, great idea.
> Posted by: LorecorE

Too funny. Maybe they can get those guys from that Barter Kings show to trade Mini-Mart all the way up to Mike Trout.

It doesn't stifle discussion. In fact, it IS the discussion. People who are saying the Phillies won't likely contend are saying it in the context of discussing how they should approach 2014.
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BAP: There are absolutely people that in the course of a discussion about what the Phillies will do next year said, "Who cares, they are done." If you don't think that stifles discussion you are just blinding yourself to certain posters.

However, I hold to my original question. I see people talking in absolutes. The Phillies are not contenders next year. I am simply asking what else will happen if they know that.

As I've said before, I think there is a path to competing but it obviously is not an easy one and it requires some maneuvering by a GM who has an, at best, spotty record at his job.

And I don't think any team with the payroll of the Phillies- even if they shed 20 million- should be purposely packing it in for a year. I advocate making smart moves that help short term AND long term. Of all the things Amaro did last off-season wrong, the one thing he did right was not get locked into massive long term deals on anyone.

TTI: the elmn contract was 1 year too long. :)

The Phils shouldn't draft guys named Knapp. They got lucky to get of the first one in time.

TTI: There is really no such thing as an opinion which stifles discussion on Beerleaguer. A person can show up with the most crackpot opinion in the world, and it still doesn't stifle discussion; it merely spurs discussion about the nuttiness of his opinion.

I also can't think of a single poster whose position can be summarized as: Who cares, they are done. I so see some posters (Jack & GTown_Dave spring immediately to mind) who say: We should trade expensive veterans, and collect as many prospects as possible and I don't care who replaces those veteran players in the short-term because we aren't contending in 2014 anyhow. But that is a much more nuanced position than just saying: Who cares, they are done.

I happen to agree with you that there's a path to competing in 2014 but I think it's a very unlikely path that would require far more things to go right than are likely to go right. Nonetheless, I am not opposed to trying, to the extent that it can be done without compromising the future. Because, realistically, the odds of our losing 90+ games in 2014 are much greater than the odds of our contending for a playoff spot in 2014. If RAJ doesn't approach his off-season by acknowledging that reality, then he's only liable to make our long-term outlook worse. Which is exactly what many posters fear is going to happen.

But that is a much more nuanced position than just saying: Who cares, they are done.

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Nuance goes out the window with those two posters because that has been their refrain for a while.

"The Phillies are not making the playoffs next year."

This is what I responded to. I don't think the Phillies should re-sign Halladay but that isn't tied in any way to their ability to compete or not. It is just the best thing for business and the team because as I said- the risk is about equal or greater to the reward there right now based off two years of empirical data. If the Phillies want to compete they can't afford the risk coming to fruition.

A person can show up with the most crackpot opinion in the world, and it still doesn't stifle discussion; it merely spurs discussion about the nuttiness of his opinion.
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BAP: On this point in particular I would say that I was referring to legitimate opinion. I mean we all know posters like scammies are not to be taken seriously in any way.

There are people on here who actually try to have discussions without resorting to ridiculousness. Look, I may disagree with you and MG a lot but I think your opinions come with some degree of trying to spur discussion forward. So I disagree but I respect your opinion. Fatalotti would be in that group too when he was around.

I think GTown Dave has moments when he isn't trying to be a comical, and failing, douche.

Jack is not interested in discussing. He is interested in trolling, and is a complete scumbag.

Gotta admit, didn't think this would even be BL Thread worthy with the current staff, so well done.

I haven't seen many farm assignment predictions yet, and I don't know enough to make them confidently myself - but my best guess would have been for Knapp to start in Lakewood next year and Lino to move to Clearwater.

But now, maybe Lino (will still be just 21 next year) stays in Lakewood with Knapp out for the majority of the year. His defensive tools are well regarded, and also gets marks for untapped power potential on offense. I read multiple times that he had some of the best "pop times" in the entire minors at under 1.9 seconds from catcher mitt to 2nd base, and his footwork/coordination behind plate as caught up to his big frame.

Um, guys....

Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki 30m

The Phillies outrighted four players off the 40-man roster: RHP Michael Martinez, RHP Zach Miner, INF Pete Orr and LHP Mauricio Robles.

I believe that happened last year too Willard.

:(

I keep forgetting that you have to actually cut the zombie's head clean off...

yea... cloyd and valdes actually got claimed by teams. Martinez will go unclaimed and end up back at AAA, and ultimately on the mlb roster.

Did they convert Mini-Mart to a pitcher?

TTI can't stand people who don't share his opinions. And people who drink coffee. People who don't agree w/ TTI AND enjoy a cup or two of coffee? Straight SOL.

Also, I did feel the Phillies had a chance of competing this past season if r00b made certain moves, which I outlined at the time. So my consecutive seasons streak of saying the Phillies have no realistic chance at competing for a Postseason berth no matter which moves they make, or don't make, stands at one.

Martinez will go unclaimed and end up back at AAA, and ultimately on the mlb roster.

It feels like this happens several times every year, continuing ever onward to eternity. Any news about Michael Martinez which doesn't include the words "outright release" or "head missing" isn't news.

If I were a competitive team, I'd ABSOLUTELY claim Mini Mart off waivers. It's really the only way to guarantee a good trade fleecing of RAJ in what's likely his final year as Phillies GM.

TTI can't stand people who don't share his opinions. And people who drink coffee. People who don't agree w/ TTI AND enjoy a cup or two of coffee? Straight SOL

___________________________________________

1.) Clearly not what I said. But you did prove this statement: "I think GTown Dave has moments when he isn't trying to be a comical, and failing, douche," correct. This was you failing at being a comedian.

2.) I have no problem with people who disagree with me. I have a problem with people who have disagree with me citing stupid arguments and points. Huge difference.

3.) Also, I did kinda say I think you have moment where you are a good poster. I see you take compliments about as well as you do comedy.

Here's a question for the board: Do we want the Phillies to compete next season? A successful team means Amaro, in all likelihood gets an extension. Another year like 2013 and Amaro more than likely gets the boot. So, in effect, do we actually want the Phillies to compete in 2014?

TTI's right about one thing: I'll never say or write anything nearly so funny as his idea of a compliment.

Did they convert Mini-Mart to a pitcher?

The new stat department looked at his OPS and just assumed he was a pitcher.

Redburb, that's a complicated question. I have a couple thoughts.

- if the Phillies are "competitive" it's likely due to key investments in the way of Utley, Rollins, Howard, Papelbon (and Doc/Chooch?), and not necessarily due to off season tinkering done by RAJ. Hence, I don't know that RAJ should get credit for a decent 2014 team.

- I tried to root for the Phils to tank the last couple weeks of the season for the protected pick and I just couldn't do it. In the moment of the games, I just couldn't root against the Phils, despite the "bigger picture" gain. Just too tough to watch.

- With an uncompetitive team next year, I'm afraid it may be the death knell to a Comcast run BL. The only good reason to come here is the comments and another craptastic team might be too tough a pill to swallow.

redburb: As much as I hate Amaro, I'll never hate him enough to hope the Phillies lose.

It's pretty damn close though.




When is TRASH day?

JOHN MAYBERRY
BEN REVERE
PETE ORR
RYAN HOWARD
ROGER BERNADINA
CASPER WELLS
ERIK KRATZ
KEVIN FRANDSEN
CAMERON RUPP


Has TRASH DAY arrived? Still more to be put out on the curb.


Scammies_Mafia

Pete Orr threw me a baseball in spring training 2012. I'll never say a bad word about him.

The Most Fascinating Team In MLB History ... The 1930 Phillies

This would have been far more frustrating to witness than even the past two seasons. Even so, I wish I had been able to see Chuck Klein play. He's almost a forgotten man in Phillies history, largely because he played on such awful teams. The Phillies finished dead last in the NL in 9 of Klein's 15 seasons w/ the Phillies, & second to last in 3 others. In fact, he only played on one Phillies team which finished above .500 (1932, 78-76, .506, 4th Place).

I think its a bit of a conundrum. No one thinks Amaro is a competent GM but the only way to get a new GM is for sustained losing.

Redburb: The problem even beyond the current GM is that no one thinks Monty is a competent team president, & he's the one in charge of hiring & firing GMs. Ed Wade lurks nearby, waiting ...

So he's The Lurker At The Threshold!

"Jack is not interested in discussing. He is interested in trolling, and is a complete scumbag."

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I get that Jack grates on a certain segment of Beerleaguer because he sometimes seems to take a little too much joy in the Phillies' misfortunes, when those misfortunes validate his previous opinion. But that is just a matter of style. As a matter of substance, he has plenty to say about the Phillies & is here defending his opinion all the time. It's not like he just comes to Beerleaguer to annoy or antagonize -- which is the definition of a troll. A troll would be, like, someone who writes long, nonsensical posts in all capital letters and says the same thing every time without actually engaging anyone on the board. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any examples on Beerleaguer. Oh -- I gotta go. The scammies mafia just showed up at my door!

Phillibuster: I must acknowledge & praise all Lovecraft references. Kudos to you, sir. And kudos again.

" wish I had been able to see Chuck Klein play. " When they dumped Klein at age 28 for being too good to keep around, he kinda fell off a cliff. Seems like what people wish the team did with Ryan Howard. By the time Klein came back to Philly 3 seasons later, he was putting up some feeble numbers. I blame him for my 20 losses in '38.

Ed's been undercover. Special Operations.

"I think its a bit of a conundrum. No one thinks Amaro is a competent GM but the only way to get a new GM is for sustained losing."

I don't totally dispute this (though I don't think he'd be able to really take credit for any "success"). It's just how these things in sports work.

That said, we, as fans, have no real bearing on whether the Phillies will or will not be competitive next season, so there's really nothing for us to choose. We should, and will, cheer for a competitive team. Whether or not that happens (and the resultant disposition with RAJ) will happen regardless of whether or not we wish it to.

GTown: Would that make Montgomery the Shoggoth on the Roof?

LP -- Horse pucky! It was Bill Atwood's fault and you know it!




_

CALL

SCOTT BORAS

The PHILLIES need REAL BATS

Sick of the SCAMMIES MAFIA and
their FRAUD
_

JOHN S. MIDDLETON

NO COMMITMENT TO WIN


Scammies_Mafia

Free AEC is trying to expose that Middleton is one of the Deep Ones?

Phillibuster: I was thinking more along the lines of Nyarlathotep.

C'mon Chuck, next you'll blame Heinie Mueller.
Those 1930s teams are fun to look at. 1930, Klein hits 40 homers, best on a team that hit a collective 126. 1938, Klein hits 8 homers, best on a team that hit a collective 40.

When they dumped Klein at age 28 for being too good to keep around, he kinda fell off a cliff.

Do you realize how high of a mountain Klein was on to "fall off a cliff" to a 136 OPS+? A 176 OPS+. I'd say he slid a ways down from the mountaintop. :) In the 4 years after he left the Phils (and returned within that time), his lowest OPS+ was 123.
Age 33 he was terrible, age 34 bounced back (127) and then tanked.
I read some SABR-members posts elsewhere who claim that he was helped by the Baker Bowl more the ordinary player would be. No links -- that was quite a while ago.

TTI~ My 2 cents FWIW. I can agree that the Phils are not contenders. And I agree with you that part of the reasoning is the "spotty" record the GM has. But unlike others I can't say they're done.

Why? Because they can be fixed. I just don't know that the current GM can fix them, based on what he's done the last 2 years.

However, we don't know if he was told to try real hard to try to make them contenders again. Maybe not. We'll just have to see.

We all know that just because you spend money, it doesn't guarantee a playoff spot. Just look at the Angels. But we do know that if you do bring in better players, you SHOULD have a better chance.

There are already 6 open spots on the 40-man. That tells me there's at least somewhat of a plan.

I think Amaro's new plan is to free up enough space on the 40-man roster to field a team made up entirely of Rule 5 players.



_

The PHILLIES didn't show up for the JOSE ABREU workout.

RYAN HOWARD SCAM
_

JOHN S. MIDDLETON

NO COMMITMENT TO WIN



Scammies_Mafia

New Thread ==>

"I think Amaro's new plan is to free up enough space on the 40-man roster to field a team made up entirely of Rule 5 players."

Maybe he's freeing them up to sign:

SHIN-SOO CHOO
MASAHIRO TANAKA
MATT GARZA
BRIAN MCCANN & CHOOCH

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