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Wednesday, September 25, 2013


***Phillies starting to get shifty***

Um, I think you mispelled shitty...

Thread over.

From the last thread:

Monday evening, ESPN Classic aired Steve Carlton's 300th victory from 1983, a September game on the road against the Cardinals, using the Channel 29 feed with Harry and Whitey.

It was a pleasure to once again listen to Harry in his prime, with Whitey announcing birthdays, wedding anniversaries, and transplanted residents visiting the booth.

Two things of note:

- Harry said that Carlton wanted to pitch five more seasons. He did just that... but not at the performance level he probably anticipated through ages 39-43.

- Harry and Whitey knew how to broadcast a televised game. Unlike today's bozos, they would let the pictures do the talking with periods of silence.

I hope TBag DVR'd it like I did. He could learn a lot.

Also reposted from the last thread:

Isn't it amazing that Franzke and Anderson on the radio yap much less than the TV side. They should be simulcast and the tv guys should simply be fired. The money saved could be given to Murphy to retire so he didn't have to act like a moron in the stands.

That job in the stands is basically a chance to put a pretty woman on the broadcast. And the Phillies screwed that up as well.

I have to say again that I love the Roku MLB app. I haven't listened to anything but the radio broadcasters since i got it. The game is much more enjoyable. Even though the Phillies stink and Rube still runs them. I had resorted to the visiting broadcasters before I got the ROKU because neither of my TV apps for MLB had the radio broadcast option. I especially made a point of listening to the opposition during the middle three innings as the Phillies broadcast with TBag and Sarge is the most unbearable thing I've ever heard.

I highly recommend that if you get your games over the internet (live out of town) that you get the Roku box so you can have the radio broadcast while watching on a real TV. I will never listen to TBag or Sarge again. Such a relief.

NEPP - that made my morning. Shifty indeed.

Agreed, although the Phillies started to become "shifty" over a year ago.

On the actual point of the thread (which, BTW is actually a decent header), it'd be great if we embraced advanced fielding metrics like the Rays and Pirates (among others).

With Rube at the helm, I suspect any shifting will tend to be quite limited in nature.

RAJ's not interested in defensive shifts. He's interested in defensive production. And versatility, of course.

Rube's version of defensive shifts is shifting utility infielders to centerfield to achieve versatility.

aksmith, related to the media…I’m wondering if there is research into what viewers/listeners actually want in a baseball broadcast.

Most of us on BL detest the constant babble of the television, the fascination with Phanatic hats, the babies and ladies in the stands, the Murph moments, etc. (Although I personally appreciate Wheels’ insight and history from time to time.) Let the game to breathe on its own! Most of us would also prefer CBP without Bongo cams, crowds partying in the concourse, and the wave.

I’ve always wondered, though, whether BL feelings reflect the general viewing/listening public. Does the public actually like all the hoopla? Do Tbag and Sarge “test well”? Would viewership drop with a change? Or are broadcasters part of an established social/media network and never questioned?

The only positive is that both radio and tv Phillies broadcasts are comprised of baseball people (as opposed to some sports broadcasts when the “reporter in the stands” has public recognition but no knowledge of the sport whatsoever)

You guys and your shifting points of view are hilarious.

Must be a hard job though.

Regarding the reshaping-around-Rollins-and-Utley comment from the last thread, remember that the Phils' offense was mediocre by 2010. Why would we want them to reshape around these guys four and five years later and expect a better result?

Same thing with Howard. Sandberg and/or some in the media are talking about a possible bounce-back next season because Howard is losing some weight, his Achilles will be fully healed, and he will be in good shape and become the Big Piece once again. Well, I think it's safe to say that 2014 Howard will be no better than the 2010 version, probably worse.

The problem at this point is that a "bounce back" year for Howard would be him being league average offensively for a 1B and essentially a 0.0-1.0 WAR player overall

Seeing one of their best hitters become neutered by the shift for years would make you think the Phillies would have checked into defensive shifts sooner than later.

If the NFL were like MLB when it came to innovation, the forward pass would likely still be banned...along with helmets.

NEPP - Indeed. Phils are definitely ahead of the curve in terms of versatility and 'shifting' players around to where they never played before professionally.

Glad the Phils are starting to shift. The data is available from at least 2 providers and it is something I can definitely see Sandberg using more next year.

I know it is crazy but how about some numbers on how many times the Phils have actually shifted this year and a breakout between Cholly & Sandberg.

Absolutely agree on the noise level of MLB games both in person and on the TV. For announcers the golden rule should be, if you don't have anything interesting to say, don't say anything at all. I also like a quiet ballpark, but I think all the music, video board games, and antics are to keep the non-super-fan entertained during what is a slow paced game, made slower by the longer between inning breaks that TV needs.

***Absolutely agree on the noise level of MLB games both in person and on the TV. For announcers the golden rule should be, if you don't have anything interesting to say, don't say anything at all. I also like a quiet ballpark, but I think all the music, video board games, and antics are to keep the non-super-fan entertained during what is a slow paced game, made slower by the longer between inning breaks that TV needs***

Its the difference between Flyers games at the Spectrum and then at the Core States/Comcast/First Union/Wachovia/whatever the fvck its called now Center.

The Spectrum had nothing but the ice, crushed in seats and a tiny packed concourse...the Center is a massive amusement park where half the crowd is too busy doing other things to even watch the game. The Spectrum was simply awesome for Flyers games.

NEPP - Yup. It was like watching college hockey games at Walter Brown at BU vs the new Agganis Arena. Not nearly the same since you aren't on top of the action and people aren't as bunched together.

I will step up and admit that when I go to the ballpark, I usually complain that there aren't enough cheers started by the person in charge of those cues over the loudspeaker.

I also like the questions to the players shown on the Jumbotron, although I always struggle to hear the responses.

Other things I love:
* Singing "Take Me Out To The Ballgame"
* The bell dinging when the Phillies hit a HR
* Seeing Harry sing "High Hopes" (and singing along with him) after a win.
* the Phanatic's antics

Are there any diamond blue chip prospects in next years entry draft? Where are the Phils currently standing in draft position?

Thanks in advance.

GBrett, I always LOVE stay to sing with Harry! I would never leave before that favorite ritual. I also bellow loudly in the 7th inning stretch!

The complaints are the added stuff that have nothing to do with the game as a whole...bongo cam, the wave, the drunks in the concourse, etc. Those things are for people not really watching, but needing to stay entertained.

Even MORE annoying (I know, I'm a grump) are the people who get up and down during the at-bats (aaugh!) and who talk during the entire game about stuff not game-related.

The most expensive tickets I got this year placed us right in front of an entire family (parents and 20-somethings) who talked the WHOLE game about everything but baseball. For two hours we listened to where they were going afterward, how fat the daughters looked in their clothes, comments on players' odd names (they knew none of them, and wondered why they were "booing" Chooch), someone's party, etc. Fortunately they left in the 7th to "beat the traffic"

Things like the love cam and that where they happen between innings don't distract from the game at all.

something something MIDDLETON!!!!!

If you think about the big picture, the stadium experience (catering to the casual fan, looking for an all-around good time in addition to a baseball game), coupled with the abyssal on-air TV talent (which, I'd assume, has to be even more unlistenable to a casual fan than it is to a die hard who just wants to see the game), sets up perfectly for in-stadium attendance, despite the team's level of play.

If you're solely reliant on the on-the-field product to drive attendance, you'd be in trouble during this recent "swoon." Conversely, I suspect that the majority of viewers of games this week would be watching regardless of who the corporate shill paid to broadcast it was. I'll watch until the end, as I loathe the time of year where baseball isn't available, but going to the stadium to have hotdogs hucked at my head and hearing 8 year olds scream at an animated bus on a jumbotron isn't worth it.

One can choose to ignore the between-inning antics if desired, as TTI mentions. Can't say it takes away from the overall experience, for me anyway.

Jordan Hall thinks its a good idea to build around 35yr old infielders and now Corey Seidman wants to trade our top prospects for Jose Bautista "to try for one final run with Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels and the aging infield."

JW is rolling over in his internet grave.

"I know this is outside the box, but maybe we should kick the tires and see if Scott Aire and Jim Eisenreich would be up for one last run." - Beerleaguer correspondents

Phillies starting to get shifty?

Beerleaguer, where the shift hits the fan?

Honestly I feel like a bit of a grump saying this but I'd much rather go to a game (baseball or otherwise) that didn't have all noise - walkup music, bongo cams, a million forms of "entertainment" out on the concourse, etc. Pure sport, that's where it's at, for me anyway.

I don't give a crap about animated races, track the hidden ball, etc. games between innings. Like TTI said, I can choose to ignore it. But the incessant blaring of the loud speakers, with all their inherent distortion, is not possible to ignore. Can't they just play it in audible range?

you guys probably just stink at picking the bobblehead races. Road Jersey Bobble rules!

Finger smartly changed the title of this post to "Phillies finally beginning to employ shifts?" for the Comcast main page.

I wonder if I had something to do with that...

"I will step up and admit that when I go to the ballpark, I usually complain that there aren't enough cheers started by the person in charge of those cues over the loudspeaker."

GBrett, I agree with everything you posted except the above. Manufactured cheers are bogus, IMHO, and ought to be banned by MLB.

The best cheers are the spontaneous variety.

"But for whatever reason -- pitchers' comfort, individual preferrence, personnel, etc. ..."

How about sheer instinctual and institutionalized resentment of any perceived novelty, however effective it proves in practice -- as exemplified by our boorish GM.

"Even MORE annoying (I know, I'm a grump) are the people who get up and down during the at-bats (aaugh!) and who talk during the entire game about stuff not game-related. "


Klaus, good post.

I cherish the moments when two drunks end up fighting because one guy called the other guys mom a whore. Been awhile since I've been fortunate to attend such a comedy flick oddly enough. There were always fights back in the Vet days. Time flies, can't believe in almost 3 months it will be 2014.

I could do w/out the loud, usually crappy, music. Ambient crowd noise, the dulcet tones of Dan Baker & the antics of the Phanatic are more than added entertainment enough for me. However, I'll cop to enjoying the occasional Phanavision "game" -- subway race, bobblehead race, ice cream shuffle -- as well. Speaking of which, the best ice cream shuffle moment ever was when the Phanavision operator(s) ran the game as usual, then re-ran it w/ the header "And now for the Mets fans", & only one very slowly moving box of ice cream. Classic.

"Are there any diamond blue chip prospects in next years entry draft? "

Greg Golson
Anthony Hewitt
Joe Savery

... comments on players' odd names (they knew none of them, and wondered why they were "booing" Chooch)

I actually get a kick out of fans who have no clue about the players, esp. when they clearly feel they're experts. Nothing like some guy from S. Jersey spouting off RE: Cody "Ash", or why Carlos Ruiz deserves those "Boos" he's been getting.




Craig Calcaterra often takes a contrariety position on items and he often misses the bigger picture.

Gammons is right to rip the Astros' ownership. In exchange for moving to the AL without any difficulty, the Astros' ownership group were allowed to make money hand over fist to pay down their high debt levels given they had a highly leveraged financing mechanism in place when they acquired the team.

Fans are completely right to be turned off but such a naked and blatant profit grab over multiseasons and not invest/watch such a sh!tty product while the owners greatly pad their bottom line.

MG: I was under the impression that MLB made moving to the AL a de facto condition of approving any new ownership. If such was the case I have no problem w/ the financial incentives. In any event I believe the current ownership deserves a grace period before we judge how interested, or not, they are in winning. The prior FO didn't merely level the franchise, they salted the earth before leaving.

If the Beerleaguer message board is like a discussion in an online living room, then Free AEC is the guy who occasionally runs up from the basement, pops open the door to yell something crazy, then slams the door shut and runs back to the basement. It is entertaining, and kind of like being friends with SABR Gary Busey.

Just an FYI. People from South Jersey can be knowledgeable and dedicated Phans, too. I am tuning in to these meaningless September games, after all.

Re: the ice cream game and the bus game - These have always been my non-baseball-loving daughter's favorite parts of the CBP experience. And as someone who wanted to stay in the seat to watch the game, I was grateful for things like this that would keep her entertained. It's good for families, in other words.

(Even better is when your kids are old enough to stay home while you go to the game without them, thereby saving money and making everyone happy.)

Did anyone see the fan in the stands last night holding up a sign reading "Let's Go Phishing"? I don't think he realizes what phishing actually means. LOL.

For a night-time, indoor sporting event like basketball, I actually think the non-sports related theatrics sort of enhance the overall experience. Baseball is a completely different matter. Baseball is subtle & quiet. I don't even notice the walk-up music and I damn sure don't want to see "dot racing" (an Oakland Coliseum special) between innings.

GBrettfan: Anything's possible. Hell, I'll bet there's even a Mets fan who's not a total buffoon out there somewhere! ;-)

I think the primary reason for the rise of the constant-chatter announcer and the non-baseball forms of entertainment during the game is because there are simply more entertainment options out there now, all of which compete with MLB for eyes and wallets.

There weren't hundreds of television channels. There weren't thousands of video games (a number of them baseball-related). There weren't movie streaming services (nor nearly so many "cinematic" options). There weren't billions of websites. There weren't as many other sports easily available to watch (nor were their seasons as long).

With the advent of all these other options, baseball teams have to cater more and more to people outside the core demographic of "pure baseball fan" if they want to make money. Both because they need to net more of the "casual" fans, but also because they need to help the "pure baseball fan" justify the expense of attendance.

Anyone with a significant-other who doesn't like baseball isn't going to get to many baseball games - and the number of people who buy tickets to more than 40 games a season is probably under 5,000. Similarly, to the non-baseball fan, a baseball game on TV is roughly equivalent to a 150-250-minute long gameshow with arcane rules that gets interrupted at random intervals with 1-5 minutes of commercials (depending on the broadcast).

So in order to increase the likelihood that your S.O. at least won't be miserable for the whole game, they throw in lots of bells and whistles for people who don't care about the game but are willing to be there because their S.O.s are "serious baseball fans." And in order to at least help them understand why it's not just a bunch of guys standing around adjusting themselves and spitting sunflower seeds and tobacco juice while one occasionally throws a ball and another occasionally swings a stick, they have announcers who over-explain every little thing, and cut-aways to "human interest stories" that include non-overtly-baseball events.

Even if the core "serious baseball audience" is 50% of viewership/attendance (my bet is lower), by making it watchable for the people they're with they increase the number of people watching/attending on a regular basis.

Phillibuster is exactly right. The reason we get yucksters like T-Mac in the booth is because he is fine at doing what he is asked to do- talk from one pitch to the next.

Guys like Kalas, Jack Buck, Allen and them wouldn't last today because they told stories but not in the way stations want. They want quick fast soundbitey type things and not the long (way more interesting) stories of a past age. They don't want people flipping channels and to get that you do in the crowd segments and have goofy things like "Ask the Booth."

It sucks, but it is what sports on TV is anymore. The guys who are good at being new through older lens are rare.



__________ -61





I really have to wonder why the Advanced Energy Consortium is so concerned with the Phillies. Are they looking to purchase?

The Dodgers are getting $280 million a year from their local television rights...I wonder if that has anything to do with their willingness to spend? They turn a profit even if no one buys a ticket or a dodger dog at the concession stand...even with a $220 million payroll.

This isn't even counting the $50 million a year they get from the national tv rights.

@Phillibuster, I actually thought it was the Aluminum Extruders Council writing these posts.

NEPP: Why would you even begin to try and enter a discussion with that raving lunatic?

If we ignore him maybe he will move on.

Just making a point that he's an idiot (and a troll of course)

Just ignore him.

Gbrett: "spouting off RE: Cody "Ash"

Its always hilarious when me and my wanna-be-prospect-experts read a million scouting reports and article, and argue back and forth about guys all while completely butchering their names as whatever we interpret them to sound like in our head.

Most of the time, we've been saying these kids names for 3-4 years before we ever(sometimes never) get to hear their named actually spoken by someone who is told the correct pronunciation. Cracks me up everytime. I've been saying "Cody Ash" in my head for years.

Dickie: Ahh, that explains it. They saw that the ABGWIU was trying to garner sympathy from the other unions by hosting more dollar dog nights, and decided to head that one off at the pass.

NEPP: To be fair, I would say facilities maintenance, advertising, medical staff (insert chuckle or not), broadcast crews, the FO, scouts, travel arrangements (for non-players), meals, and a variety of other expenses outside the 40-man roster's payroll likely bite into that profit by quite a bit.

However, it's probably still at least a few million. Especially incorporating the national dollars.


I saw yesterday people freaking out about Amaro's comments on Ruf and Asche. After actually the comments- I think it was Amaro just being aloof like he normally is and not indicative of what he is necessarily going to do.
































This is exactly what Free AEC did over at Phuture Phillies. If you don't agree with him, he tries to destroy the site.

Ruf and Asche. Sounds like a dermatological condition.

Regarding Cody "Ash", I for one couldn't stand when people would pronounce Pat Burrell's last name incorrectly.

Also, regarding the in-stadium experience, I miss the late Paul Richardson's organ music from the Vet. You hear some organ music at CBP, but not like the old days.

Free_AEC reminds me of Jamie Harrold's character 'Steven' in the movie "The Score":

New thread.

Personally prefer a quieter environment where the game sets the tone. I remember games with my Dad without all the hubbub at Connie Mack. But that just probably shows my age.

I totally get GBrettfan's comment about the kids. My local minor league team always has something going on between innings, which kept me in the seats with my then young son instead of wandering constantly through the concourse to keep him entertained.

But hey, I'm one of those guys who liked the way the old LA Rams just flipped the ball to the ref after they scored a TD - like they had done it before.

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