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Tuesday, September 03, 2013

Comments

The real question is "How did the Mariners GM stop from laughing when we demanded Aumont in the Lee trade?"

last thread i told red burb how its foolish to call BL a singular entity.

Going to go out on a limb and say calling Aumont garbage will be an exception.

I have a great way to get Aumont to repeat his deliver:


Attached electrodes to his scrotum, and zap him every time he drops his arm slot too much.

I bet he'd learn in pretty short order.

"On this blog nothing can be said to be certain, except Minimart sucking and Aumont being garbage" - Benjamin Franklin (kinda).

The Phillies should fire Rich Dubee at the conclusion of the season, but as a concession to his years of service allow him the honor of personally telling Aumont that the organization intends to retain him (Phillippe) for as long as possible w/ the express purpose of keeping him in the Minor Leagues.

hard to wrap your mind around the statement that he refused to alter his motion with the recognition of how bad he was with his old motion. If you stink and someone points it out, he don't avoid showering because of the priciple of the thing.

GTown, love it.

What really impresses me about Aumont's comments are not that he's upset with the Phillies but that he seem sto be the kind of person who feels sorry for himself and assigns blame for his own failures to other people.

WTF? Does he blame the team and Dubee for his inability to throw strikes?

If this blurb from the Morning Call is true...

"...he walked 38 and hit six batters in 352/3 innings with Lehigh Valley, and walked 13 in 191/3 innings with the Phillies."

then Aumont may qualify as too st00pid to pitch in the major leagues. Doe she not understand the importance of keeping runners off the bases?

My suggestion to Aumont is to go home, look in the mirror, take responsibility for the pitches you throw, and grow up a little bit.

Shut up and sack up - the world owes you nothing.

Aumont - classic million dollar arm and ten cent head.

well the minor league season is over. Maikel Franco is hands down the Phillies hitter of the year. Pitcher? Not sure.

While i disagree with bap/nepp that he's done more negative than positive this year, he certainly didn't put up shutdown numbers.

Just terrible pitching this year overall. Every single level. By the numbers you got a nobody Mario Hollands (7-3, 2.86 ERA, 114 K across A+/AA) and a out of nowhere Severino Gonzalez (7-5, 2.00 ERA, 119 K across A/A+/AA) as the only guys with good years.

Alternate reality:

Haven't a lot of folks here been critical of the Phillies MiL development staff - especially when it comes to pitchers?

Didn't the Phillies just let their minor league pitching coordinator pursue other opportunities, and aren't they replacing him?

So, maybe it's not all Aumont's "fault"? Maybe, he's gotten crappy and conflicting coaching throughout the Phillies' MiL system, and inconsistent coaching has led to what we see?

Just askin'...

lore, Hollands' numbers could cause one to believe he's having trouble transitioning to the high (AA/AAA) minors.

Gonzalez's numbers appear to be OK at all levels so far, and he's five years younger than Hollands.

milb teams by respective league ERA rank:

LHV: 9 of 14
REA: Last
CLR: 11 of 12
LAK: 10 of 14
WIL: 13 of 14

Severino Gonzalez will easily be the Phillies' minor league pitcher of the year. The award does not go to the best prospect. It goes to the pitcher who had the best year. Case in point: last year's winner was Tyler Cloyd.

That said, I'm not so sure that Gonzalez ISN'T the Phillies' best pitching prospect. It's hard to know because the scouting reports on him are scant. But he's sure got the numbers & age for the honor.

awh: My interpretation of what I've heard/read RE: Aumont is that he has largely refused to take instruction, which makes the ultimate effectiveness of said instruction irrelevant. I certainly have concerns about the failure of the Phillies' system to develop pitching, but it's difficult for any organization to coach a player who doesn't wish to learn, change &/or improve.

I'm not sure these ideas are mutually exclusive.

Isn't it possible that the Phillies aren't completely to blame for his terrible season, but are also guilty of mishandling him at times?

Jack, with the Phillies anything is possible.

I only posed the "alternate reality" POV as an item for discussion, given the track record of and the recent shakeup in the Phils MiL pitching hierarchy.

bap: need to dumb yourself down a bit and realize that he only started 14 games, and had a 7-5 WL record. Those low numbers will offset his amazing WHIP, K/BB numbers.

Don't count out Hoby Milner and his lofty 12 Wins and 143 total IP at Clearwater.

Kyle Kendrick gets my vote for Phillies Minor League Pitcher of the Year.

They should just yell at Aumont in German...that normally gets a Frenchman to do what you want.

Aumont needs to grow the F up.

Gtown Dave: "Kyle Kendrick gets my vote for Phillies Minor League Pitcher of the Year."

I laughed.

Ethan Martin?

No need to hire a German. Just turn on some German opera. A few refrains of "Der Holle Rache" and he'll be throwing strikes in no time.

Possible new way to listen to televised Phillies games:

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/24243.html

Excerpt:

Fandio.fm is a social platform for users to experience sports and live events with friends and other fans while allowing bloggers, celebrities and casual fans to create and hear live, alternative audio commentaries. Users listen and engage in analyses and discussions, via a chat room, that appeal specifically to them while watching an event on television.

Just bring back Justin German and make him a pitching coach. He's still in Toronto's system and even pitched in the Majors this year.

Does Aumont have a life time job with the Phils like Wheeler and Ed Wade because Ruben traded for him?

Tim ~ "Does Aumont have a life time job with the Phils like Wheeler and Ed Wade because Ruben traded for him?"

Yes, pitching coach...

So, think Rube is going to go after that Masahiro Tanaka kid from Japan?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=tanaka003mas&utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.comTanaka

You know, with the money he'll save on KK and Doc?

As much as I like blasting Ruben, I don't hold him accountable for the lack of interest the Phillies have shown in premiere int'l FA. Making monster postings like the one Tanaka's Japanese team will require is an ownership decision, not a GM's.

If the Phillies ownership soley cared about the luxury tax, then posting for Tanaka shouldn't be a concern. But alas, they never try to make huge postings because they aren't concerned about the luxury tax as they say - they are concerned about their bottom line, which the posting certainly would affect.

Tanaka is 19-0 in 22 games with a 1.20 ERA? Did I read that correctly?

> Tanaka is 19-0 in 22 games with a 1.20 ERA? Did I read that correctly?

Yeah, pitching against guys like John Bowker and Lastings Milledge. Big deal.

Yeah, you did. Don't know what he actually throws, but he's being heavily scouted by a number of franchises. No mention of the Phillies being one of them. Maybe he's not injured enough for them?

Kid is 24 and if he's anywhere near as good as his numbers look over the last few seasons, he's got a bright future. But hey, the Phillies likely won't need starting pitchers anymore. They're loaded in the majors and the minors. Oops.

Yeah, and Yu Darvish was pitching against those guys too. Was he better than this guy? Because he looks pretty good pitching against Mike Trout and Robinson Cano.

Wonder if Sandberg will get the chance to bring his own coaches onboard...

hey now, don't forget Wladimir Balentien

> Tanaka is 19-0 in 22 games with a 1.20 ERA? Did I read that correctly?

Yeah, pitching against guys like John Bowker and Lastings Milledge. Big deal.

Posted by: Dickie Thong | Tuesday, September 03, 2013 at 02:28 PM

I'm pretty sure that the Roy Halladays, Cliff Lees, CCs, King Felixs and the such all faced the Bowkers and Milledges at some point as well. I guess we should diminish their performances as well.

Nothing like diminishing an entire league based on 2 players. You clearly have a handle on Japanese baseball.

Dice-K in his final season in Japan:

17-5, 2.13 ERA, 0.923 WHIP, 9.7 K/9, 1.6 BB

Am I the only one going to say it?

Aumont is 100% right. Whether you think he'll amount to anything or not, he's been jerked around by this organization since they acquired him. If he's not part of their plan moving forward, they should do him the courtesy of letting him try to catch on somewhere else.

This is not the first time the Phils have done this to a player (and I'm sure other organizations do it too). If he is expected to "[s]hut up and sack up," the Phils should too.

> hey now, don't forget Wladimir Balentien
>
> Posted by: LorecorE

or Wily Mo Pena

R
You are the first and only one to say it because he stinks. It would be different if he had success and someone messed with him.
He is big and throws hard but has never been able to throw strikes.
Guys like him are a dime a dozen in the minors.
The phils only mistake was giving him a chance at the big league level and he blew it.

"Dice-K in his final season in Japan:

17-5, 2.13 ERA, 0.923 WHIP, 9.7 K/9, 1.6 BB"
.
.
Dice-K in his first two MLB seasons:

33-15, 3.72 ERA, 1.324 WHIP, 8.4 K/9, 4.2 BB/9, 372 IP

and one WS ring.

Great? No, and probably not worth the money, but he was certainly a serviceable starter.

Aumont: Waaa!! Waaaa!

Mini Mart: Oh shut up! I have less talent than you and they call me up all the time.

Bernadina: Yeh, and they let me lead off, too!

Ted, I certainly haven't been a defender of the r00b and the FOols, especially lately, abut RBill misses a very simply point:

If Aumont could throw strikes he wouldn't feel "jerked around" on underappreciated.

He's be on the MLB roster as a successful reliever.

If he could throw strikes he'd have bitchin' rights.

R Billingsly - Yeah he has gotten yanked around a bit but he has also been given a couple of chances too at the MLB club including last year late.

Also continues to stay foolish things publicly and was horrible at Lehigh this year.

What I want to know is again how an organization that prides itself on scouting not know that a guy like Aumont was going to be so difficult to coach/Gillies behavioral problems/etc.

Hell, Looper oversaw that system and should have had the inside skinny on what these guys were actually like off the diamond & if they had any behavioral red flags (talent issues aside).

Yet Looper is the Assistant GM, Player Personnel and on equal par with Proefrock and Wolever.

That lineup reaks of loss. Mini in CF, yea!

Ted: Someone saw something in him, right? He was a starter, turned reliever, turned starter, turned reliever.

Is it possible that him being moved back-and-forth had something to do with his inability to throw strikes? I honestly don't know, but I'd imagine so. If they're going to keep jerking him around and inhibit his ability (which he obviously thinks they're doing), why is it out of line to say that he doesn't like what's going on?

If you ask me, he handled it well. He said he wants to be back with the Phils, but if he's not in their plans for the future he wants to go elsewhere. What is wrong with that? What's wrong with him wanting to make a big league club if the Phils won't seemingly give him a chance? I mean, they didn't give him a September call-up on team that has no shot at making the playoffs and are giving guys time to basically audition for jobs. I could understand it if they didn't want to start his clock, but that's not the case. If it were me, I'd be pretty angry, too.

Dammit, why did sandberg start ruiz?!?!

I could be posting a box score of the EXACT lineup earlier this year in LHV if it wasn't for that.

ah crap.. frandsen has been mlb all year too.

There's an odd ad on Craigslist - Allentown:

RH Rawlings Pitchers Glove For Sale

Once Dropped, Never Used

$150 USD/$175 CAD or best offer. Will consider trades in lieu of cash.

.............................

Wonder what that means.

hah the fact that it mentions canadien $$ as well is awesome.

NEPP - That's hilarious.

RBill misses a very simply point:

If Aumont could throw strikes he wouldn't feel "jerked around" on underappreciated (sic).

I most certainly did not miss that point. I'd venture a guess that him being moved back and forth four times between two organizations and at least three pitching coaches will stunt development. Stretching out to be a starter, then back to a reliever, then back to starter, then back to reliever, while being told by three different people how his mechanics should be would most likely affect his ability to throw strikes. Is that so outlandish?

Aumont has a valid point. Whether you agree with it or not is inconsequential to the validity of his feelings on how he was handled. I think a guy like that, more than many others, has earned "bitchin' rights." Moreso than a guy who is brought up through the system in one role and allowed to sink or swim.

rbill: Aumont was moved between starter/reliever because of his hip injury that disallows him to carry long workloads. Seattle recognized that and moved him to the bullpen. The Phillies foolish moved him back, and surprise!, he got hurt.

He has returned to the bullpen ever since.

2013 has 0 to do with a three year old move to the pen and 100% to do with Aumont not throwing strikes.

Hell, Looper oversaw that system and should have had the inside skinny on what these guys were actually like off the diamond & if they had any behavioral red flags (talent issues aside).

Could very easily be possible those red flags didn't pop up until now. Or the Seattle farm system kept it more quiet. Always plenty of alternatives.

"Tanaka will have some issues to work out in the big leagues, assuming Rakuten posts him as expected. He drops down at times at the back of his delivery when muscling up on his fastball, which can make the pitch go pretty straight; you can get away with that against less powerful competition in Japan, but a Paul Goldschmidt or Miguel Cabrera can send a pitch like that into orbit, even if it's 95 or 96 mph."

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/72725/japans-next-big-thing

"Is it possible that him being moved back-and-forth had something to do with his inability to throw strikes?"


RBill, NO!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=aumont001phi


You'll note in hi minor league track record that "throwing strikes" got worse AFTER they stopped yanking him around.

The Phillies foolish (sic) moved him back, and surprise!, he got hurt.

So, the Phillies do something "foolish" and therefore have nothing to do with his development? That's all I'm saying. If he feels that he was handled incorrectly (whether YOU agree with his feelings or not), what is wrong with him saying that he would want to go elsewhere if he's not in the Phils' plans?

2013 has 0 to do with a three year old move to the pen and 100% to do with Aumont not throwing strikes.

I'd argue that but for this "three year old move to the 'pen" he may not have had the issue. He was mishandled. We know it. He knows it. The Phils know it. How much that mishandling actually affected his strike-throwing is anyone's guess. But, his strike throwing has zero to do with his feelings on whether or not the Phils hurt his development. If he was throwing strikes, then obviously we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we are, solely because he feels that he should get an opportunity to sign elsewhere if the Phils have no plans for him.

Again, what is wrong with him saying that?

It's pretty obvious that Aumont is angling for a Michael Schwimer dump trade in the off-season.

"What's wrong with him wanting to make a big league club if the Phils won't seemingly give him a chance?"

RBill, they DID give him a chance, and he came up short.

Whose fault was it that the Phillies acquired Aumont for Lee? The Phillies
Whose fault was it for moving back to the rotation in 2010? The Phillies

No argument there at all.

Whose fault was it that Aumont has never been able to cut his walks down? Aumont

While there could be some conflict of instruction at different levels, i find it hard to believe that any of them suggest he continue not throwing strikes.

You'll note in hi (sic) minor league track record that "throwing strikes" got worse AFTER they stopped yanking him around.

To me, the points to the yanking around causing the non-strike throwing. It would be a more compelling argument if his "throwing strikes" did not get worse AFTER they stopped yanking him around. Therefore, one could assume that it wasn't the moving back-and-forth causing the issue.

His BB/9 increased during and after they moved him back-and-forth. To me, that's a direct correlation. If they never moved him from being a reliever-to-starter-to-reliever would his BB/9 have increased? We don't know. What we do know for a fact, is that once they began moving him around, his BB/9 increased.

"Could very easily be possible those red flags didn't pop up until now. Or the Seattle farm system kept it more quiet. Always plenty of alternatives."

First one is possible although Looper was in charge of Player Personnel development in the Seattle system.

1. Cesar Hernandez 4
2. Freddy Galvis 6
3. Kevin Frandsen 3
4. Carlos Ruiz 2
5. Darin Ruf 7
6. Cody Asche 5
7. John Mayberry Jr. 9
8. Michael Martinez 8
9. Ethan Martin 1


Yech!


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies_zone/The-Philadelphia-IronPigs.html#qUoLbdIxB8gkhle8.99

RBill, they DID give him a chance, and he came up short.

Yes, and it seems that the Phils aren't going to give him another one. Therefore, he wants to move onto another team that might give him another shot.

No one has answered the question: What is wrong with him feeling that way? That's the only thing that I'm arguing here. I don't think his feelings are outrageous.

rbill: The phillies own his rights. Making public comments against them in the public is conduct detrimental to the team and his value as an asset.

The more I see of Sandberg's lineups, the more convinced I am that Sandberg thinks he's a little league coach whose primary function is to find equal playing time for all the kids on the team.

Two things to consider:

1. Wasn't Looper FIRED from taht position?

2. Aumont was given extended auditions in the bullpen last year and this year and he failed miserably both times. He also absolutely sucked in the minors this year. He has no one to blame but himself for his failures.

I hope the biggest obstacle I have to overcome in life is being asked to throw strikes for 5 consecutive innings and then being asked to do so in an occasional inning several times a week.

Here's a bit on Aumont's confusion... shows some disconnect between the majors and the minors... although the difference between being more effective on pitches and lowering walks seem fairly the same. He's not really noting "mechanical changes":

“It’s very, very confusing,” a frustrated Aumont said after batting practice on Saturday. “Baseball is a very confusing thing because you have so many people who have so many different perspectives on how to do things. At the major league level, (bullpen coach) Rod (Nichols) is telling me something, then I come down here and can hear different stuff. Which way do I go? Do I want to please the people while I’m down here right now or do I do the things the big league wants me to do even if I’m not doing the stuff they want me to do here?

“I’m the one who’s caught in the middle and I have to make a decision. We don’t always make the best decisions, nobody does, but I have to find a medium of where I can get to where I want to be and at the same time, try to do some of the things they want me to do. The bottom line is I’m going to do what’s good for me and whatever anybody else says goes in and out for me.”

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/ironpigs/index.ssf/2013/06/phillippe_aumont_focusing_on_w.html

To me it sounds like a guy who has a problem with being coached. He wants to be a strikeout pitcher. He wants to strike out guys with balls in the dirt. Except if EVERY pitch is in the dirt, Major League hitters will figure you out. He just doesn't get it.

I find it hard to believe that there is the disconnect that HE thinks there is.

What's saddest is that September is the time of year when you have the most number of alternatives on the roster, yet we still see a lineup trotted out that contains Michael Effing Martinez starting in CF...

You mean we don't have a single other OF who might stand to benefit from some additional experience at the MLB level now that minor league ball has wrapped up??? How is that possible?

"The more I see of Sandberg's lineups, the more convinced I am that Sandberg thinks he's a little league coach whose primary function is to find equal playing time for all the kids on the team."

That, or he's entered some sort of "supreme tank mode" phase of the season.

"David Murphy ‏@ByDavidMurphy 20m

Without looking it up I'd be mildly surprised if any MLB lineup has ever led off with three players with a lower combined career OPS"

Mini Mart, Cesar Hernandez, and Ben Revere should have a contest for best throwing arm.

Scary thing is, Revere would probably win.

Also, Aumont is out of excuses if he refuses to listen to instruction. It isn't as if he's had a large track record of success at the MLB level.

This is a really, really, really dumb argument.

Sure, Aumont has the right to feel yanked around, and/or to not have a good relationship with the Phillies coaches. For all we know, he doesn't have a good relationship with the Phillies coaches. And maybe he has a legitimate complaint about contradictory advice he's received.

At the same time, it's a little bit ridiculous to claim that his relationship with the coaches "caused" Aumont to be an awful pitcher this year (or throughout his time here, though he hasn't always been so bad). Brett Myers and Joe Kerrigan famously almost fought multiple times during their tenures here, and Myers still managed to be an above-average pitcher. And it's also surely true that as a professional, you're sort of expected to keep these minor disputes between you and the organization, and to take responsibility for your own performance.

Unless, of course, your name is Michael Young, in which case you can complain publicly and basically say whatever you want and people will still call you "classy."

With that lineup, at least Asche and Ruf are in it! ...though on the other hand, you could probably lead off with Ruf and his 30% K rate and still come out better than any other alternative.

Rbill,

[(You'll note in hi (sic) minor league track record that "throwing strikes" got worse AFTER they stopped yanking him around.)

To me, the points to the yanking around causing the non-strike throwing. It would be a more compelling argument if his "throwing strikes" did not get worse AFTER they stopped yanking him around. Therefore, one could assume that it wasn't the moving back-and-forth causing the issue.]

This is a beautiful argument: there is nothing possible that can dispel your preconceived belief that the Phillies are to blame. Your position is, literally, unassailable.

I mean, would it really surprise anyone to learn that the Phillies were communicating different things among coaches at the major and minor-league levels?

It's not like the organization has exactly been a model of functionality and efficiency under Ruben Amaro.

Hamm: I would definitely come down on Aumont's side if he was having short term success one way, while the team was trying to fix him into another method for long term success - a common, believable debate you will hear.

unfortunately aumont doesn't even have the short term success to qualify this as a reasonable debate.

Matt Gelb: "No one should ever, ever advocate tanking. But finishing among 10 worst teams is important. And ... this lineup: http://bit.ly/17psxij/ "

Yup.

The more I see of Sandberg's lineups, the more convinced I am that Sandberg thinks he's a little league coach whose primary function is to find equal playing time for all the kids on the team.

Posted by: bay_area_phan

~~

Can't blame him. We need to find out if Mini Mart can step up and be a crucial piece of the puzzle in 2014.

Unless, of course, your name is Michael Young, in which case you can complain publicly and basically say whatever you want and people will still call you "classy."

I have absolutely nothing concrete w/ which to back this up, but my suspicion is that M. Young is more than a bit of a pout. Teammates & media appear to love the guy, so there must be something to his reputation, but for some reason his general demeanor rubbed me the wrong way. I wish I'd been able to more closely follow the early part of his career, as the latter has been decidedly "Meh".

Can't blame him. We need to find out if Mini Mart can step up and be a crucial piece of the puzzle in 2014.

If the puzzle is of Hindenburg bursting into a mass of flaming wreckage over Lakehurst, then yes.

At least he's batting 8th?

Note-- I said "batting" and not "hitting"

@Cyclic, I prefer "plate appearancing"

BAP: Severino hasn't gotten much notice from scouts, partly because this was his first season in the U.S. and partly because his fastball is mediocre. And maybe partly because he's a little guy (150 lbs generously listed as 6-1.) I'd like to see him and Rasmussen stand side by side with a tape measure.

Anyhoo, he's got great command and that can carry you a long ways in the minor leagues even if your stuff isn't so hot.

His numbers will attract more attention this offseason, but I'd wager he doesn't make the Top 20 in BA's Phils prospects list.

Little righties without a big fastball are a true longshot, but he certainly bears watching to see if he can maintain that 7.5:1 K/BB ratio through a full season in Double A.

i looked like an idiot the last time he pitched, so might as well double down:

I expect a very nice bounceback start for Martin tonight. Nats are a very poor offensive road team.

Severino did actually end up winning phillies Pitcher of Year award.

Severino could be the next Flande!!!

Clout: Severino will defenitely make BA's Top 20 Phils prospects. No doubt in my mind. I mean, have you seen the rest of the Phillies farm system? I don't think he's a top 10 guy, but he'll appear on some top 10 lists, and he'll certainly make it into BA's top 20.

Consider the wager made.

"@Cyclic, I prefer "plate appearancing""


Dickie, yes, because where mini mart is soncerned, it is questionable whether he knows WTF to do with a "bat".

MG: Glad you mentioned Looper. Stories at the time said his was key input on the prospects the Phils got back. As I recall, it was at his urging that the Phils insisted on getting Gillies instead of Saunders in the trade. Saunders is nothing special, but he's a lot more special than Tyson Gillies will ever be.

@lore: "I expect a very nice bounceback start for Martin tonight."

By "start" I assume you mean "the first time through the order?" If so, I'm with you. All bets are off after the 4th inning or so...

LorecorE is correct about the Phillies stupidity in trying to make Aumont a starter. That was a lost season of development for no good reason.

Pretty sure Looper was the big mover behind all 3 guys in that deal...due to his "first hand inside knowledge of the Mariners system"...

he now holds the heavy burden of carrying on the legacy of recent past winners:

Tyler Cloyd
Trevor May
Scott Mathieson
Kyle Drabek
JA Happ
Mike Zagurski
Carlos Carrasco
Scott Mitchinson

Jack: Phils system is bad, but mostly due to lack of position players. If he makes Top 20 it won't be because he's among the better pitching prospects, it will be because someone has to be in the Top 20 and there are aren't enough position players worthy. That said, I'll stick with my original prediction.

clout, do you know enough about Severino Gonzalez to compare him to Elizardo Ramirez - that is, in terms of FB velocity?

IIRC Ramirez was a strike throwing machine but just didn't have enough 'giddyup' on his FB to make it in the show, though he did manage more than a cup of coffee.

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