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Thursday, September 12, 2013

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From the last thread:

[Ed. Note: Sometimes you go to bed wondering, "How did a Deadball Era guy, especially one who retired in 1917, hit 200 home runs?" He didn't. The fact is Honus Wagner hit 101 homers and had 252 triples. Thus, he isn't a part of the 200/400/2000 club Jimmy Rollins is about to join. I regret the error.]

We apologise for the fault in the subtitles. Those responsible have been sacked.

The best quote here from Monty is: "We just don't know how." That says it all.

I suck at fantasy football because, "I just don't know how."

Ruf had every right to be on a team with Ezequiel Carrera on the opening day roster and Delmon Young/Mayberry starting most games.


Posted by: LorecorE | Wednesday, September 11, 2013 at 10:19 PM

~~~

Correction-- It was actually Ender Inciarte. Which I think makes it worse. I don't care about the "learning to play the OF" and "he didn't hit well in ST". Look at the team they've had all year.

From the last thread:

The whole harping on D. Young really misses the boat.

Yeah D. Young sucked and was a bust who got released. The Phils also paid him a paltry salary on a 1-year deal.

Also about their 7th or 8th contingency plan this past offseason too. They got priced out offering a Swisher deal (who is having an underwhelming year in Cleveland) and passed on Ross (again an underwhelming offensive year), weren't able to sign Ichiro, refused to give into the ridiculous demands for Kubel or Soriano, and tried to land Willinghma in the Revere trade but weren't able.

The only other moves were trading for a bum like V. Wells or acquiring S. Hairston both have had terrible years.

Phils even gave D. Ruf a shot to win the starting LF job in spring and he really struggled defensively while not hitting.

Everybody craps on Amaro about D. Young but what were the alternatives and it was clear as day that Amaro thought D. Young was a poor option by the way he structured the contract & how late he signed him. Just exhausted all the other strategic possibilities. A lot of times an executive only faces bad choices or very limited ones with little/no upside.

I said this all along. I'd have rather watched Ruf have a chance to fail than DYoung.

DYoung is never the right answer.

I wasn't harping on Young- in fact, Young was just an example of something and not a criticism of the front office.

But MG got to write a super long post about it...so win/win?

All they had to do was start Ruff from day one and never sign Young.

MG's post needs to be tattooed onto the retinas of a good number of Phillies' fans, because there's a goodly number of them who constantly insist that the FO "chose" Delmon Young over someone else. (Usually that "someone else" is Schierholtz.) It's just refreshing to see someone banging pots-and-pans about the context of the Young signing, and that it was a bottom-of-the-barrel attempt to fill a roster spot after the previous half-dozen plans had fallen through.

It's almost as if several years of crappy roster decisions left the Phillies in a place where D.Young was the the only option remaining due to a lack of financial flexibility.

Juums, you are correct about MG's post providing "context." The other day while reading all the BL comments about Hunter Pence, the posters lost all concept of "context' regarding the acquisition and the loss of Hunter Pence. Hunter hits for a good average and provided energy to a loaded team that won over a hundred games, but Pence was both an unorthodox and undisciplined player in both the batter's box and in the field. I don't lament not having Hunter Pense, even though I liked him a lot as a fan.

Villar really Turning the corner in Houston. Rube has failed miserably at every aspect of his job. All started with lee trade. And Sh&t! Has rolled down hill ever since.

Biggest problem with Villar is that he's on pace for 40 errors this year at SS. If he were to play a full season that is.

Plans didn't "fall through" because there were no plans beyond "quick, dump salary!" Furthermore, r00b never wanted Schierholtz or Ruf in his OF, so they were summarily rejected. Remember, r00b only busted out w/ the "Ruf's not ready because look, Spring Training!" excuse well after he had inked D. Young (an excuse which conveniently ignored Ruf's fine play in MLB at the end of last season, & D. Young's crap play throughout most of his career).

I suppose one could argue that r00b forced his own hand, but it takes a special kind of stupid to place oneself in such a position. That the best alternative of which he could conceive was moving Dom to LF, & paying D. Young a couple of million bucks to show up & not be fat, is entirely deserving of constant, blistering criticism.

Amaro didn't want Schierholtz and neither did the Giants. I guess both teams should've foreseen him having a breakout season this year.

Stanton is a SCAMMIES ruse to drive discussion away from the very available and desirable SHIN-SOO CHOO who is a major STUD in CF.

In fact baseball-reference has CHOO as one of the very best defensive players in 2013

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/tz_runs_total_tf_top_ten.shtml


SHIN-SOO CHOO .892 OPS

BEN REVERE .691 OPS


Ben Revere is simply appalling. One of the very worst CF I have ever seen. Even Yadier Molina can go first to third on Revere's three bounce throw to the cut off man.

Revere's bat is just as bad. A TOOTHPICK. He is a starting outfielder for a last place team.

Everyone complained for the past decade that Rollins wants to hit HR but doesn't draw enough walks to leadoff, well, Shin-Soo Choo is a Bobby Abreu walk machine with almost the same HR power as Bobby and the HR power of Rollins in his best seasons.


SHIN-SOO CHOO

98 WALKS this season

BEN REVERE only 73 walks in his entire CAREER

SHIN-SOO CHOO .424 OBP

BEN REVERE .338 OBP



Choo is the answer and he is extremely available.


SHIN-SOO CHOO 20 HR

BEN REVERE ZERO


Oh no. Free AEC is going to taint this website now?

Choo has been atrociously bad in CF this year.

Stop breaking stuff.

Harping on Ben Revere is truly bizarre. He's a cost controlled OF who makes the league min. He's not a core piece whatsoever. It's amazing that people can't understand that.

Corey Seidman: "Roy Halladay's thrown 162 sinkers & cutters since returning from the DL and gotten ONE swing-and-miss."

"52 swings. 1 swing-and-miss."

So Not Cuttered.

Halladay's decline makes me more depressed than any other player's decline. Seeing a guy who was the Best at his craft become a mere mortal is a sad, sad thing.

If the Phils do end up with a protected draft pick, they could do a lot worse than getting into the Choo lottery. On-base skills of the sort Choo's got tend not to decline as the player ages, and he's been an average corner defender throughout his career. If you're going to give a big FA contract to someone, I'd think Choo's skill-set is the sort that's probably the safest to invest in.

I'm a big fan of Choo, but we've already got Utley, Howard, Dom, Asche, and a switch-hitting shortstop who has been much better from the left side than the right side over the last 3 years. And, as good as Choo is against RHP, he's almost Ryan Howard-bad against LHP.

Choo has a .597 OPS against LHP this year and a career .678 OPS against LHP.

Eventually, don't you hit some kind of saturation point, where you have more left-handed bats than they have LOOGYs? It's certainly one way of beating bullpen specialization.

FreeAEC was all in on Josh Hamilton this winter but the damn scammies and Dave $$$ Montgomery were too cheap to sign him.

It's not even swings and miss on his cutter. It is his inability to locate it despite it being 87.

Still leaves too many of them elevated and especially in the 1st inning hanging over the plate.

Some really out of touch stuff in the last couple of threads by some usual characters. It is getting harder and harder to find quality insight here. If you read GTown's post at 12:44 followed by Free AEC's incoherent rant, your browser will automatically transfer you to Philly.com.

Whenever Montgomery talks, people act like what he says actually means something. He might as well actually be pulling things out of his ass and smearing it on a piece of paper for the beat writer to submit. None of it means anything.

"Eventually, don't you hit some kind of saturation point, where you have more left-handed bats than they have LOOGYs?"

Most teams have 2 LH relievers, so you've got 2 innings covered right there. So, unless the game goes to extra innings, you're not likely to run them out of LOOGYs. Not to mention that we'd lose practically every game when we face a LH starter.

MG: I think that's the point. The pitch is either a cookie, or obviously out of the zone.

> Amaro didn't want Schierholtz and neither did the Giants. I guess both
> teams should've foreseen him having a breakout season this year.
>
> Posted by: The Truth Injection

IIRC, Boche was as fond of Schierholtz as Dubee is of Aumont.

@Iceman, hillarious! That reminded of that scene from Harold & Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay.

I actually watch baseball games that don't involve the Phillies.

The other night on ESPN Choo reached base four times against Clayton Kershaw who most claim is the most dominate LHP in MLB.

I guess Choo is a GUY who rises to the occasion.

Revere is pure garbage. Nothing more than a pinch runner.

Since I'm being gored over Josh Hamilton it's also worth noting my pathological hatred of B.J. Upton and my loud screaming that Upton would be the worst signing ever.

How many here who disagreed with that will admit to it now?

BAP:
My tongue was firmly in cheek, but the point is taken. It's a travesty, in the season when the Phils may well have a protected draft pick and talent that is worth the risk of a big FA contract, that it'd be derailed by lineup composition.

So you're saying the Phillies did the right thing in trading for Revere over signing BJ Upton then.

Juums: Ah, I missed the tongue in cheek tone. In fact, for a moment, you even had me thinking, "He might have a point there."

Not to distract from all of the discussion that has about 0 to do with the header, but my take on any sort of FO "endorsement" of Amaro follows in line with any other GM, Mgr, etc who receives an endorsement from their Front Office - The mere fact that someone needs to provide any endorsement or insight at all, in and of itself, is actually the exact opposite of a legitimate endorsement. In other words, if things are really going fine in Monty's mind, he wouldn't feel he had to "endorse" RAJ. The fact that he did bodes well for the vast majority of Phils fans who are waiting for Roob to be summarily dismissed.

On the subject of Choo's splits, I cracked open his on the season. And they're interesting. This season versus LHP, Choo's put up a .211/.350/.247 line. For his career, it's .246/.340/.339.

So, yes, Choo doesn't hit LHP terribly well. But he still manages to get on base at a rate better than almost every current Phil versus LHP. If you sign him with the intent of slotting him lead-off or in the two-hole, his inability to drive the ball won't really be an impediment, as his job is to be a table-setter rather than a masher.

He's a cost controlled OF who makes the league min

So you are on board with the SCAMMIES and David Montgomery. Cheap is what's important.

The Phillies really do have Dodgers dollars. It's flea market Phantards who allow them to financially rape the fourth largest media market in the USA.

A good offseason for the Phillies is:

Shin-Soo Choo in CF
Brian McCann and Chooch as a catching battery
Masahiro Tanaka
Matt Garza

The Phillies can easily afford that. This is what is necessary for them to have a legit shot at the division title in 2014.

***The other night on ESPN Choo reached base four times against Clayton Kershaw who most claim is the most dominate LHP in MLB.***

Oh, so he got on base 4 times in one game...that's much more telling than his career and season splits...

NEPP: but only if a team scout watched the game.

"Not to distract from all of the discussion that has about 0 to do with the header, but my take on any sort of FO "endorsement" of Amaro follows in line with any other GM, Mgr, etc who receives an endorsement from their Front Office - The mere fact that someone needs to provide any endorsement or insight at all, in and of itself, is actually the exact opposite of a legitimate endorsement. In other words, if things are really going fine in Monty's mind, he wouldn't feel he had to "endorse" RAJ. The fact that he did bodes well for the vast majority of Phils fans who are waiting for Roob to be summarily dismissed."

Exactly Williard Preacher. This isn't a reaffirmation of Amaro's position as a GM but the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Free AEC:
For a team that desperately needs draft its draft picks, you're handing out a lot of them if you're signing three guys who're likely going to get qualifying offers. And there's the fact that you'd be paying $15MM a year to Choo to play a position he's terrible at and which saps the value his bat creates. (And the same sum to Brian McCann to be a platoon bat.)

I do agree with you that the Phils should make a run at Tanaka if he's posted, though. As the Phils' primary advantage at the moment is monetary, and being able to absorb things like posting fees is how you leverage it to replenish the farm. (A run should also be taken at Yoshio Itoi if he posts, as he profiles as a poor man's Shin-Soo Choo in that he's high-OBP, intermediate-SLG corner OF.)

Rubee, you're doin' a heck of a job.

Garza has no draft pick tied to him as he was traded in season. He is as free as Tanaka in that regard.

Players like Choo are worth six first round picks and if the Phillies cared they would tank the games so the pick was protected.

Choo is a solid CF. I've watched him. He is far better than anyone the Phillies have put out there this year.

As you noted the Phillies advantage is money so they can afford McCann and Chooch as a catching battery. They would get Mauer like OPS production from that.

Montgomery only endorsed the GM because he was asked. I'm certain the thought of firing r00b hasn't even begun to cross his mind. Everyone knows the Phillies (read: Monty) are loyal far beyond reason. r00b's not going anywhere ... & when he does it will be with tears & a guaranteed job f*cking up some other aspect of the ball club.

Amaro is a dead man walking at this point. The only question is whether the Phils are bad enough next year that it justifies a firing after '14.

Bad luck/injuries (2012)
The manager & bad luck/injuries (2013)
??? & bad luck/injuries (2014)

Ed Wade and Pat Gillick have not gone anywhere. Wade has been seen in public watching minor league games with Amaro this year. He and Gillick are well paid assistants to Amaro.

If you get rid of Amaro he becomes an assistant to the new guy along with Wade and Gillick, and the real GM - DAVID MONTGOMERY - is still in charge.

JOHN S. MIDDLETON needs to fire Montgomery as Team President.

"That the best alternative of which he could conceive was moving Dom to LF, & paying D. Young a couple of million bucks to show up & not be fat, is entirely deserving of constant, blistering criticism."


I usually don't agree with GTown much, but he is exactly right.

The "Ruf didn't hit in ST" argument is total horsesh8t. That's contrary to the way they handled SR performances before. In 2006, Chris Coste ripped the cover off the ball in ST and still got sent to AAA. The probability is that they had ticketed Ruf to play in AAA even before ST.

And I find this wuote VEY disturbing:

""Marti Wolever has been picking our amateur talent for a long time. And he picked some pretty good ones," Montgomery said of the assistant general manager. "The same group that identified Jayson Werth to be a pretty good rightfielder when nobody else was chasing him is still the same people identifying that talent today."


"The same group..." was Pat Gillick. Not the guys there today.

Montgomery seems to be a clueless as Amaro, and remember, he's the guy that gave us Amaro instead of Arbuckle.

What I got out of that interview is, Montgomery needs to go WITH Amaro! If "You don't know how" To fix it, Let me handle it. I'll show you and Amaro! These moves start IMMEDIATELY...

1st... Fire Amaro and hire Gillick on a temporary basis

2nd...STOP trying to get Stanton, or whatever the he11 his name is this week. He's not worth giving up what we'd have to...

3rd..Trade Howard to whomever for a RH bat thats a bad contract, thats the only way he goes.

4th...Chooch isn't renewed and I get McCann

5th... Halladay isn't brought back, neither is Kendrick

Free AEC:
I apologize for my derping re: Garza. Mea culpa.

I've watched a bit of Choo in CF too, and he hasn't been the Delmon Young-esque trainwreck you'd expect for a guy with -15.6 UZR/150. But I also admit that my sample size is exceptionally small. While it's possible he's a competent CF and just had the worst of luck with balls being just beyond his reach, the far more likely conclusion is that he just had good nights when I caught him.

I know a McCann/Ruiz platoon could put up an impressive slash line. The problem is that: 1) Chooch is already one of the most productive players both on the club and at his position, meaning a lot of the gains will be marginal; and 2) In order to get McCann, you have to guarantee to play McCann almost every day. We've already got a backlog of guys whose bats are great but can't be slotted at their regular position and there's only one LF in which to put them.

And BAP's point about lineup composition is still valid. Choo is a kinda-sorta exception, in that he still gets on base at a good clip and is just a singles hitter against LHP. McCann's got a far, far more conventional career slash line versus LHP.

***JOHN S. MIDDLETON needs to fire Montgomery as Team President.***

Forgive my squirrelly ignorance but the last I checked, no change can be made in a limited partnership without the consent of the managing partner...in this case, David Montgomery. The only person who can fire David Montgomery is David Montgomery...even if the other 4 owners wanted him gone, they have zero say. They are silent partners only...with no legal method to do what you suggest.

What is this fascination with Middleton? What the team needs (and has needed for a long time) is for current limited partners to go, an owner to come in who hires competent people including a GM and flushes out the Phils' Augean stables of the hanger-ons & flunkies, and rejects.

Easier said than but I do think David Montomgery and the limited partners will sell out after the Comcast deal is announced. They are getting up in age (especially Giles) and will be selling at a high point.

Owner to let the GM make the baseball decisions and only intervene if they are making a huge financial commitment.

Middleton made a vague comment 10 years ago about paying personally for Thome (I think it was Thome) and everyone thinks he'd be a savior if he were the sole owner.


Its along the lines of the Continental Congress thinking that all their issues were with Parliament instead of George III and that a simple letter to Georgie would solve the issue as he would step in with his evil Prime Minister and Parliament.

This is all pretty much based on an article in Philadelphia Magazine that came out in 2007-2008 that everyone cites when arguing for Middleton. He's supposedly the only person in the ownership group outside of Monty that even likes the Phillies and baseball....thus, everyone assumes that he'd be another Steinbrenner and open off his coffers (and his $3 billion fortune) to buy a championship.

The subsequently-disgraced Bill Conlin wrote, several years ago, that the only way the limited partners could get rid of Monty was by proving "malfeasance and worse." I think presiding over the Ruben Amaro, Jr. Era qualifies.

From what I know as a law expert (i.e. I watched Law & Order once), you'd have to prove something along criminal activity like money laundering or a deliberate attempt to lose money by Monty. I highly doubt anything like that is going on.

"The same group that identified Jayson Werth to be a pretty good rightfielder when nobody else was chasing him is still the same people identifying that talent today."


"The same group..." was Pat Gillick. Not the guys there today.

Montgomery seems to be a clueless as Amaro, and remember, he's the guy that gave us Amaro instead of Arbuckle.

You're clueless. Gillick never left.

The Phillies had Jayson Werth. He loved playing here. MONTGOMERY ran him out of town and appeared in the broadcast booth during Werth's walk year and vouched for Domonic Brown being ready to step in for Werth the following year.


2013 Jayson Werth: .945 OPS

... thus, everyone assumes that he'd be another Steinbrenner and open off his coffers (and his $3 billion fortune) to buy a championship.

I'll bet Middleton considers that he already has, albeit after the fact. I, too, wouldn't be surprised to see some changes in the ownership group after the new broadcast deal is settled. Unfortunately, I imagine it will be more along the lines of consolidation amongst a couple of partners than an all-out sale.

I'm sorry for even engaging Free AEC. He's a troll of the highest order guys. I know that term is thrown around here often, but this guy is absolutely nuts. He will try to destroy this website with his vitriol.

In order to get McCann, you have to guarantee to play McCann almost every day

He doesn't. He and Chooch both have injury issues. The Phillies need both of them to get the production they need.

If you can't deal with facts, if someone won't subscribe to your ignorance, call him a troll and demand his removal.


"you'd have to prove something along criminal activity like money laundering or a deliberate attempt to lose money by Monty."

If the limited partnership wants to hire me, I will gladly make the argument that every day which Mini-Mart has spent on the major league roster is an act of theft against the 25th best player in the Phillies organization. And each time Monty cuts a check to Mini-Mart, it's an act of money laundering, done to hide the proceeds of the theft.

McCann is the cock-of-the-walk in the FA market at his position, and is in the Top 5 of position players in this year's FA class. He can go where he is going to be the starter and see 150 games a year if he's healthy. If the Phils intend on to use him a platoon bat who gets only 70% of the catcher PAs, why should he sign with them when can get market rate and more playing time elsewhere?

NEPP - rats...

NEPP: I believe there was another quote by Middleton in a magazine article after the Phillies lost the 2009 World Series about "(wanting) that fvcking trophy back."

I get the idea of Middleton with people. For years we had an ownership group that refused to spend money and even kinda famously, or infamously, referred to us as a small market town. Middleton is the guy who- at least publicly- has expressed a desire to spend money to help us win. Plus he is the heir of a wealthy family that has deep roots in this area stretching back like 120 years. For many it would be a Philly company owing a Philly brand.

I would have loved to see the reaction in Philly sports if the Phillies topped the Nats offer to Werth and he went out and put up this line .232/.330/.389 in the first year of that extension.

Free AEC, now you're just acting like a douche with reading comprehension problems.

Go back and read what I wrote one more time and maybe you'll get the context.

"They are getting up in age (especially Giles) and will be selling at a high point."


MG, IMO they are NOT going to sell.

Too many family members of the Phillies ownership group work for the club, and you know what that means.

I would have loved to see the reaction in Philly sports if the Phillies topped the Nats offer to Werth and he went out and put up this line .232/.330/.389 in the first year of that extension.

So would I. I greatly enjoy listening to the flea market crowd whining about money spent.

"The root of all evil is the love of money."

Werth is one of the best baseball players on the planet this year.

Next year Josh Hamilton will be.

B.J. Upton has never been one of those guys and never will be.

Is it really true that CM asked if he would be rehired? That shows you how over the hill he really was.

Oh and now all of a sudden there is an admission that our guys are over the hill? "bloated payroll filled with declining thirty-somethings" wonderful I am glad to hear this discussion is over. Everybody now gets it why I was correct when I was screaming sell them while you can for the past two years, during which time we did worse and worser [I know its not correct English but some of you guys deserve this]

As for "Amaro becoming creative this offseason" I thought we already saw that when he traded for Lee twice in one year or was that just how stupid he was.

There is however one problem. How come Amaro didn't get it?

Well, my plan for next year is....

"getting creative".


You see, my boss told me to. I wonder what he thinks I was trying to do the last 2 season?

This quote is also very telling:

"Montgomery, 67, said Amaro is the executive who will lead a renaissance. "Oh," he said, "Ruben is our general manager." He cited Amaro's willingness to consider a variety of opinions before making a decision."
.
.
It's just further proof that Montgomery doesn't "get it" either, that he's just as clueless as r00b and the FOols.
.
.
Heck, I could be the GM of the Phillies and "consider a variety of opinions before making a decision." Does that mean I'm the guy for the job?

What difference does it make how many varieties of opinions you consider when in the end the DECISION made is the wrong one?

The problem is the DECISION MAKING. Until Montgomery understands THAT little factoid, he's not equipped in the first place to evaluate the performance of the GM.

And you guys think r00b is the only problem?

Yo, new thread!

The Phillies front office has always been willing to accept mediocre or less than mediocre performances from their general manager, the manger, the coaches and the players. It's the good old boy taken to the max !

Now that their signing a lucrative TV contract, we can expect more of the same. Over the hill big names signed for much more than they're worth to bring in the fans. You can forget about championships; heck, you can forget about division titles.

I call this philosophy the California Angels brand of lousy baseball; but, unfortunately, it's been in Philadelphia for years.

IF Amaro didn't over pay for Howard,Rollins and Papalborn they could have kept Victorino and Pence both hitting over .285
OVERPAYING is major Amaro problem

Hindsight is a great tool when complaining about past moves. Stop crying over spilt milk and start fixing the problems. I take it you did not complain when we won five straight division titles.

Dave Montgomery doesn't know anything about running a baseball team. Anybody can read his comments and figure that out. The Phillies ownership group needs to vote Montgomery out kinda like the Sixers org did when they got rid of the President and GM. Montgomery and Amaro Jr need to go they've both done enough damage to this team.

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