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Wednesday, August 28, 2013

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They should ask the Phil's medical staff for an opinion and do the opposite...

Wait, what exactly do they have in common? This article hurts my brain

What does this paragraph even mean?

"If Halladay tore his UCL a decade ago, it would have been 2004, when he made just 21 starts because of a tired arm. The next year he missed 13-15 more starts after a line drive broke his leg. But from 2006-11, he made 194 starts and went 109-49 with a 2.86 ERA and 46 complete games. So ... not having surgery didn't affect Halladay much at all."

'Doc' taking his nickname literally?

Sure, buddy on an opposing team. Don't have the surgery, just wait it out. Yeah, that's the ticket. And drink plenty of yoohoo.

I honestly have no idea what this is.

MG,
I wish I never let Dr. J remove my kidney that night we were out drinking.

Is Seidman trying to say that Doc not having surgery on his "tired arm" was a similar situation? Not having surgery on a broken leg is a similar situation?

Back to the Victorino discussion on the last thread...

People saying we made a mistake trading Victorino are using hindsight of Revere getting hurt. It seems fairly clear to me, even right now, that trading Victorino as a pending FA for Ethan Martin and then replacing Victorino with Revere (who is 25, much cheaper than Victorino, and was just as good in 2012) was a good move by the front office.

I bash Amaro and this front office as much as anyone, if not more. But I fail to see how this was anything except a smart series of moves. It just happened that Revere got hurt this year.

Paging Dr. Halladay, Dr. Fine, Dr. Halladay.


Is Seidman trying to say that Doc not having surgery on his "tired arm" was a similar situation? Not having surgery on a broken leg is a similar situation?

Posted by: Steve | Wednesday, August 28, 2013 at 02:21 PM


Halladay had a partially torn UCL too. What the heck are you talking about a broken leg for?

slow news day...

Will Phillies trade anyone before Sep 1? Anybody still want M.Young?
Should K. Frandsen be on the team next year?

Who will Phillies call up Sep 1?
I'd like to see Rupp and Kratz at catcher and leave Ruiz as PH, late inning replacement to help the young bullpen. Not sure if Rupp gets the call since he is also going to AFL.

Looks like the Nats are looking to deal Danny Espinosa so expect him to be in a Phils uniform in short order.

RedBurb - "The next year he missed 13-15 more starts after a line drive broke his leg"

What the heck are you talking about a partially torn UCL tear for? He missed time in 2004 with shoulder problems that called a "tired arm"

"Should K. Frandsen be on the team next year?"

Depends if MLB grants the Phillies a 4th option year for Cesar Hernandez. If not, I believe he will win the job as backup inf instead of go unprotected.

Is Seidman trying to say that Doc not having surgery on his "tired arm" was a similar situation? Not having surgery on a broken leg is a similar situation?


Posted by: Steve | Wednesday, August 28, 2013 at 02:21 PM

I think Seidman's pointing out the tired arm as the UCL tear, and explaining that he missed time the following year not because of the tear, but because of a broken leg. Then he goes on to explain that the injuries had no impact on his immediate future since he dominated the next six seasons.

Sept 1 calls up: the entire LV bullpen

It seems fairly clear to me, even right now, that trading Victorino as a pending FA for Ethan Martin and then replacing Victorino with Revere (who is 25, much cheaper than Victorino, and was just as good in 2012) was a good move by the front office.
-
I agree with Jack here.

Yes ... that is what I was referring to. Not sure why that's so hard to understand. Thanks KMC

This thread is hilarious.

"Halladay spoke with Matt Harvey this week and told him that in a similar situation 10 years ago, he didn't need surgery"

And Seidman is guess that the "similar situation" was the tired arm in '04. Not too hard to follow.

guessing*

Steve - The surgery is in reference to the UCL tear, not the broken leg. That's what I was asking you. The broken leg has nothing to do with the UCL.

Well, the host killed my earlier hotlinked image pretty quickly. Whoops.

Sandberg on JRoll in the 2-hole:

"In the two-spot, you often have a game plan with the game situation," Sandberg said Tuesday at Citi Field. "If he's batting left-handed and you've got a guy on first, he's got the hole to work with -- a possible hit-and-run candidate. If the guy steals, now he's got the pull swing to get him over. Then from the right side it's the same type of thing. I actually think that could work well with him, having more of an execution plan and a job to do. I think when he's given a job at home plate and he has a job that he needs, whether it's a big RBI, whether it's a sac fly, hit the hole, I think that's when he's at his best.

"It gives him a focus, it gives him a job to do. I know he likes to do the job. I know in the leadoff spot if there's nobody on I could see if that doesn't fit you too well, it becomes just a swing mode without really a game plan."

Some rationale and even evidence to back this up (JRoll's career numbers with men on base and RISP) but it is overlooking the simple fact that JRoll simply isn't a guy who is good enough anymore to hit out of the No 2 spot.

Sil - try reposting, it could just be a random error

So he's batting Rollins in the 2-hole because his switch-hitting is well-suited to the hit-and-run game, while simultaneously using a career .309 OBP hitter in the leadoff spot?

Sandberg: "I think when he's given a job at home plate and he has a job that he needs, whether it's a big RBI, whether it's a sac fly, hit the hole, I think that's when he's at his best. It gives him a focus, it gives him a job to do. I know he likes to do the job."

Sandberg is a grizzled vet in terms of speaking managerial jibberish.

When did Halladay have a UCL tear?

actually i should have just quoted the whole thing, its all terrible.

My favorite part is where he points out jroll's left handed swing as why he makes a great #2 hitter....and then says, and when hes hitting righty, its "the same type of thing".

You're right, Steve, Seidman's article on Beerleaguer leaves out his lede from CSN Philly...

"A decade ago, Roy Halladay tore the same ligament in his elbow as Matt Harvey, and Halladay chose not to have surgery."

No DOM again, ah well, at least Darin Ruf play.

Oh wait, how silly of me, Pete Orr is the much better choice to start.

Bernidina
Rollins
Utley
Ruiz
Young
Asche
Mayberry
Orr

A-Rod is trying to get the players association to accept Doc Halladay's initial consultation and second opinion from Dock Ellis.


NEPP: Given that every scout on the planet says Franco is better at 3B defensively, why would he have to move to 1B, rather than Asche?

Posted by: clout | Wednesday, August 28, 2013 at 01:13 PM

I wasn't even considering the short-term issues on our roster with him or Asche. I was talking about if he, at some point, outgrows 3B or his defense falls off...his bat likely could still be good enough to play at 1B in the Majors.

That's a positive. As far as I know right now though, yes, he is the better defender than Asche and has a far higher ceiling overall than Asche. I wasn't even thinking short-term on that comment...but rather 5-6 years down the line if he isn't still able to handle 3B for whatever reason.

Meek lineup, and Bernie still leading off. Dice-K must be salivating.

Any word on when/if Revere will be back this season?

NEPP: Ah, thanks for the clarification. I agree.

Cyclic, that's a very important piece of information. Thanks.

Mets big time homedogs (+145) with dicek on the mound. Mets numbers vs Hamels and that lineup would have me seriously considering that bet if I were MG.

Report from end of prior thread:

Jack made a point in the previous thread that doesn't get talked about enough here: How bad the Phillies defense has been this season.

Utley and Rollins both played well below their usual levels on defense. M-Young was bad at 3B, D-Young beyond horrible in RF. Mayberry is not a CFer, should only play there in emergencies. He was far below MLB average there. Brown in LF was also far below MLB average. Revere had a rocky start in CF and has no arm, so that was below average. Ruf will never be MLB average in the OF. Kratz, known as a defense-first backup, had a horrible season on defense, making all kinds of mistakes. Even his CS%, which has been good in the minors, was horrendous at 22%.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Phillies team that was this bad on defense. Worth keeping in mind when we bash the pitching.

No Ruf, no Dom = no BAP on tonight's game thread.

clout, I could also foresee a scenario where Howard gets injured at some point next year and they call up Franco to play 1B temporarily because Asche is already at 3B and they like Franco's glove more at 1B (probably why they're giving him reps there right now just to see how he handles it) due to his experience there...it wouldn't be anything to do with his ability at 3B but more Asche's lack of experience at 1B.

This assumes (big if) that they give Asche the 3B job next year and he performs well enough to keep it.

Clearly, Franco is worth far, far more at 3B and he can handle the position defensively. Having a big power bat like his at 3B is somewhat rare right now in the Majors.

Also, I know I was sounding somewhat down on Franco in the last thread so I felt I should mention a couple huge pluses I see in his stats at AA:

1. Just 20 Years Old...younger than most of the league

2. 8.6% SO rate in AA...very, very low for a power hitter. It was just 13.5% in A+ this year too...still very low.

3. His BABIP (.297 in A+ and .317 at AA) at both levels is about average so he's not just getting lucky.

Overall, he's having the most impressive prospect season I've seen in years for our system and he's easily a Top 50 prospect overall...probably Top 25 for position players.

I rarely support any point Jack makes, but he's right about the CF issue. It was played almost perfectly by the FO. It's one of the few big-picture things it's gotten right the last 2 years- it almost makes you wonder if it wasn't just dumb luck.

Of course, it was GTown who said it was a stupid series of moves, so my guess is nobody took it seriously. But yeah. They didn't screw up by trading Vic and acquiring Revere.

Xander Bogaertz is the only 20 year old in AA with a better OPS than Franco...they're 7th and 8th overall in OPS at the AA level right now.

"Meek lineup, and Bernie still leading off. Dice-K must be salivating."


The problem is that there are only 3-4 MLB quality hitters in that lineup.

Any reason Ruf isn't playing?

I see some reasons to hope sandberg will be a decent manager in-game, but I'm not understanding his lineups. There is no reason Ruf should sit unless he literally cannot stand up. Even then, I'd think about wheeling him out there. You need to see as much as possible from him to know if he's going to be a big part of the team next year or not.

"Overall, he's having the most impressive prospect season I've seen in years for our system and he's easily a Top 50 prospect overall...probably Top 25 for position players."


NEPP, I'm no prospect guru, but I can read a slash line and birthday.

It will be interesting to see where he's ranked by all of the scouting services at the beginning of next season. I'm sure he moves up, but the question is "How far?".

lot of the prospect lists made midseason top 50s with Franco and Biddle both in the ~30s.

" see some reasons to hope sandberg will be a decent manager in-game, but I'm not understanding his lineups."


I'm starting to think that Sandberg is giving everyone a chance to play so he can evaluate them for next season - assuming r00b and the FOols retain him.

r00b and the FOols. Sounds like a singing gr00p.

These lineups of late remind me of the late 90s. A few decent hitters surrounded by a bunch of hasbins and never-will-bes.

MLB.com's mid-year rankings has Franco at #75 overall and #2 in the Phillies' system behind only Biddle (#43 overall).

I believe both BP and BA had Franco significantly higher than #75 but that KLaw didn't have him in the Top 100 due to concerns with his swing.

awh: There seems to be a pretty wide range of opinions about how good a prospect Franco is. K-Law hates him, whereas one of the other guys (maybe Sickels?) just ranked the 9th best prospect in the minors.

Corey Seidman: "Last night was the Phillies' MLB-leading 10th game this season with 3 or fewer hits. Most such games for them since 1988."

I notice renowned iron man Dom Brown will be missing another game tonight. Apparently r00b's Phillies can't hit the ball, or the DL.

KLaw hates Ruf too...like hates him with a passion hate.

The should run more Viagra ads when the Phillies are coming to bat.

In the great divide between statheads and tools-lovers, KLaw falls on the side of tools-lovers.

MG & Jack: I feel you are misunderstanding my position. I simply don't believe r00b had a plan when he traded Vic beyond dumping salary. That Martin might -- might -- wind up being the only notable trade return of his tenure to date is coincidental. And regardless of Revere's injury, he has no business playing CF. I think Vic's fielding prowess has been overrated a bit in the past, but he's far & away better than Revere. Basically, I'm not buying into the idea that r00b should be congratulated for falling ass-backwards into something which perhaps won't prove to be his usual disaster of a deal. Perhaps not bashed, but also not praised.

In the great divide between statheads and tools-lovers, KLaw falls on the side of tools-lovers.

And what do we call that where tools are collected?

A toolbag.

It's August 28th of a lost season. What is the point of going on the DL now? Rosters expand on Sunday.

This is interesting. I keep seeing it more and more from people that Revere shouldn't be playing CF. I mean he's not a Mike Trout there but he's more than capable in CF.

"Renowned iron man Dom Brown"

Word is that G-Town's tongue has been buried so deeply into his cheek since making this comment that he's having a lot of trouble getting it back out.

"These lineups of late remind me of the late 90s."


THIS!

It's August 28th of a lost season. What is the point of going on the DL now?

It's August 28th of a lost season. Why not just put him on the DL, expanded roster be damned? You might think this club would be more cautious w/ Achilles injuries, given the mess Howard has become.


... he's more than capable in CF.

Terrible arm alone disqualifies Revere. Singles become automatic Doubles when he's left out there.

So Revere must've led the league in SBAD stat this year. Funny though, I saw some singles into center that didn't become doubles. Must be confirmation bias on my part because he is a capable, average fielder there.

How many singles/doubles/triples became outs, Dave?

"In the great divide between statheads and tools-lovers, KLaw falls on the side of tools-lovers."


clout, I have no problem with tools-lovers or statheads. Unfortunately for both camps, they're frequently wrong.

MOTO: There's no perfect way to evaluate a prospect, and someone is right and someone is wrong.

Mike Trout is the obvious example - the glaring example - of how scouting is not perfect. There were 24players drafted ahead of him in 2009, including Stephen Strasburg, but I don't see any player that was drafted before him that I would rather have than him - and there are a lot of guys from that 1st round draft that are already doing well in MLB.

I mean, Ruf has played like every day for the last month. I don't really see an issue giving him the day off.

Even guys who play "every day" get the occasional day off.

Rube and the Fools - Wasn't that unsuccessful doo-wop group from the late 50s?

GTown_Dave - "And regardless of Revere's injury, he has no business playing CF."

As a guy with considerable MLB experience in CF, I couldn't agree more. Revere's rag arm speaks for itself and his routes to the ball are terrible. His "highlight reel" catch was the product of a bad jump and bad angle, overcome for a change by his speed. Not sure Revere has the versatility to play left.

Dave - Vic is a better CF than Revere and Revere still didn't answer the question of whether he will be a good defensive CF yet.

Numbers this year and 'the eye' test certainly didn't.

re gtown's entire 4:12pm post: You are wrong.

Revere's leaping/diving catch from early in the season against the Reds saved at least a double.

Numbers (this year and career) show that Revere isn't a good defensive CF. Still need another season to really have a better idea but he has now played over 1830 IP in CF at the MLB level.

Revere is an average/maybe above average. I wish he hadn't gotten hurt because he did look like he improved a little bit over the course of the season.

clout, I could also foresee a scenario where Howard gets injured at some point next year and they call up Franco to play 1B temporarily because Asche is already at 3B and they like Franco's glove more at 1B.

Good point. You also have to assume the FO looks at Ruf as primarily a OF in '14.

I enjoy reading GTown's comments (like the Revere stuff) when he actually tries to analyze players, rather than just the standard laundry list of complaints. Everything starts to fall into place when you realize he has no clue what he's talking about.

"Rube and the Fools - Wasn't that unsuccessful doo-wop group from the late 50s?"


MG, I believe so. Either that or a failed Baroque ensemble from South Philly.

Still, it's important to get the spelling correct:


r00b and the FOols

LOL

I actually like Orr overall. No projection but he can fill in at a bunch of positions, has decent speed, and can at least give a decent atbat.
For a non-prospect who will rarely play he is okay to have when preferred options are hurt.

However, he should not be starting unless a player is hurt coming to the ballpark. I have no idea what Phillies expect to learn about Orr they do not already know.

Evaluating Bernadina in CF seems worth trying.
Getting Asche time makes sense.
Mayberry is similar to Orr, Phillies know all they need to. Maybe they could show him off if they play to trade him.
Maybe same for Frandsen.
Young should only be playing to show him off for trade in a day or two. Otherwise, he should ride pine since he will not be back next season.

I was gonna add Dice-K to my fantasy team but someone beat me to it. Damn!

Frandsen and Orr remind me of Marlon Anderson, David Bell types

There is some garbage being thrown out there tonight by both teams in Flushing.

I wish this game would be presented in the old 80's style of Monday Night Football where they would hype it up to set the stage with a dramatic voiceover. Think about it:

- A reclaimation project in Daisuke Matsuzaka takes the mound tonight for the Mets against an outfield of Bernadina, Mayberry, and Pete Orr, aging veterans, crappy young guys, and the Las Vegas 51s try to take down Cole Hamels in Flushing...It's Mets-Phillies, sorry it's not 2007 anymore...but it's still next on CSN..

Former MVP Jimmy Rollins vs the pitcher Boston payed 40 mil for!Booom! (Cue helmets crashing)

Just read TTI's last paragraph with this running in the background:

A reclamation project in Daisuke Matsuzaka takes the mound tonight for the Mets against an outfield of Bernadina, Mayberry, and Pete Orr, aging veterans, crappy young guys, and the Las Vegas 51s try to take down Cole Hamels in Flushing..It's Mets-Phillies, sorry it's not 2007 anymore..but it's still next on CSN.

See if Murphy or Sarge wears the wrong polo shirt to the game tonight....stay tuned!

Revere's leaping/diving catch from early in the season against the Reds saved at least a double.

By that standard Bernadina should be the Phillies CF from now on. He made two great catches Halladay's start, saving at least as many runs.

Looks like the Met's got a good return for Marlyn and Buck.

Odd but true: One month ago today, Jeff Locke's ERA for the season stood at 2.15. Even after a really bad month, it still stands at 3.22. Today, he was optioned to AA.

Locke optioned? Damn.

So, this lineup isn't going to be much help to Hamels, is it!

I feel like I've been complaining about the defense all season. Mildly, but complaining. I called in to RAJ once to ask him about it and how it taxed the pitching and meant that we'd see our shaky BP more. He just said that the team needed to get better in all facets of the game. Hard to disagree with that, but it wasn't an idea or a plan.

Utley must be taking Charlie's firing esp. hard. Batting a pitiful .135/.327/.216 since the switch.

At least we're making DiceK work.

PhxPhilly: Pete Orr is 34 years old.

So Cole basically needs a No-hitter and to hit a couple of solo shots to have a chance at winning tonight, eh?

So much for the no-no.

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