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Friday, August 23, 2013


hope he is not back on ped's, contract year

Didi has been so bad since his hot start, that he's been getting platooned with Cliff Pennington, ouch.

Altho I guess we can't talk since our SS is playing worse than both of them of late.

lorecore - Let's have a civilized discussion without insults & name-calling.

UZR divides a baseball field into a variety of zones, gives individual fielders responsibility for those zones, and calculates how often a hit into each zone is turned into an out. By comparing the probability of an out being made, on average, and the number of outs that a fielder actually converts, you get the number of runs that a fielder saves above average.

UZR measures a players defensive abilities by comparing his fielding data to that of other players at the same position. Since 3B is a harder position to play, it is usually manned by a more talented defender, which raises the threshold for what is considered an "average" player at that position. Therefore UZR stats cannot determine whether Utley (a 2B) is better than Feliz (a 3B).

I've long said we'd know the Phillies were desperate when they stooped to THIS. God Save CBP.

Young 3B
Frandsen 1B
Utley 2B
Brown LF
Ruiz C
Ruf RF
Mayberry CF
McDonald SS
Hamels P
I suppose Hamels gets no run support regardless, may as well start Mini-mac.

3rd base is harder to play than 2nd? Not true at all. 2nd base requires much greater range than 3rd. 3rd requires only a stronger throwing arm. Pedro Feliz was a smooth defender and had an incredibly accurate throwing arm, but he had no range at all.

this lineup looks like a big eff you to hamels.

utley 2b
brown lf
ruiz c
ruf rf

why sit jimmy tonight after last night's game? i get that michael young has had some big ab's the last two games, but a double play ball and a dribbler dont exactly scream he's getting hot.

GTown: Remind me to miss that game or watch on Gameday. T-Mac is going to be especially insufferable that night.

bap, exactly. 2B is considered harder to play than 3B.

Jake, take a look here:

jake: 2nd base is the more premium position than 3rd. And the last thread I specifically listed other fielding metrics, including an exercpt from the Fielding Bible that summarized exactly what most of us have been saying: Utley has been one of the best defenders in baseball during his career.

b_a_p: Apparently the dog sh*t on the field won't suffice. Now the Phillies wish to fill the stands w/ it as well.

you'll know your team has finally bailed on you when they schedule a "Bark In The Park" night.

Posted by: GTown_Dave | Wednesday, April 17, 2013 at 11:26 AM

hah that is awesome.

bap, BTW, nice Sir Alden reference in the last thread!

BAP - At 3B you also need better reaction time, not just a better arm. Either way, you can't determine whether a 2B is better than a 3B based on UZR alone.

GTown, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like dogs as much as the next guy. But the appeal of bringing one's dog to the ballpark totally eludes me. Not to mention that it is only a matter of time before one of the dogs bites someone, or kills their dog, leading to a big old lawsuit against the team.

Jake: Obviously using only one stat, in this case UZR, is not ideal - but your logic is still wrong.

UZR measures a player to others at its position. If Utley is more above average than Feliz is at his position - then he's the better fielder, so we can use UZR to compare to different positions.

And hours later, we're still at the point where you are arguing against data instead of presenting your own. If UZR says Utley > Feliz (and DRS, +/-, etc.), what do you propose as an alternative that says otherwise?

Jake, I usually support your optimism - it's refreshing here in contrast to all the Negadelphians.

But in this "2B vs. 3B" debate you're just flat out wrong. No people in baseball at any level would tell you that 3B is the harder position. They wouldn't want to make fools of themselves.

TTI, from last thread: The "disappointed he didn't get traded" narrative isn't supported by the evidence. His fielding-independent numbers since the deadline are almost exactly as good as they always are, unless you think the .370 August BABIP was caused by his "boo boo facing".

As for the stupid "oh, sorry, I forgot we can't criticize Cliff Lee" stuff: (1) I made an argument backed by evidence, not personal affection for Cliff Lee, and (2) I've spilled an awful lot of ink here recently defending the very-unpopular-on-BL John Mayberry, Casper Wells, and Roger Bernadina for someone who only defends Cliff Lee because he's popular.

awh - It's my perception that playing 3B is harder, maybe because it was harder for me, however its really not the point. The point is that you can't judge whether player A is better than player B --if they play at different positions-- using stats that compare said players to the "average" player at their (different) positions.

Hamels (walking into the manager's office): "Yo, what's up with this AAA lineup you penciled in?"

Ryno: "WTF are you talking about? Are you telling me how to do my job?"

Hamels: "No, I'd just, for one, like to NOT have to toss a complete game to win a ballgame."

Ryno: "Well, you were so good last time out I figured I could do this."

Hamels: "Well, I don't appreciate it, It's like I'm walking on pins and needles on the mound for the whole game."

Ryno: "STFU and be a man. If you don't like it go home and go to a concert. Remember to take your dog in a backpack, and don't forget the shoes."

Cole's Shoes

Throughout this entire debate over 2nd vs. 3rd base, NONE of you have mentioned that 3rd basemen have to be taller than 2nd basemen!! I'm disappointed.

Jake, I agree with your point that it's nearly impossible to judge players who man different positions (my words).

But you made a universally acknowledged misstatement of fact when you wrote that 3B is harder, and I felt compelled to correct it.

jake: "It's my perception that playing 3B is harder, maybe because it was harder for me, however its really not the point"

No, it actually is the point for a large percentage of your debates here. You disagree with everything that goes against your personal perception.

Your perception has been often wrong, yet you trudge onward with your perception and spend more time discounting the evidence against you than producing your own.

awh - Fair enough. It just seems like a lot more great defenders come to mind when I think of 3Bs compared to 2Bs.

Tuffy gets the start tonight. Rejoice!

lorecore - It was not the point at all. Try to follow the discussion, and quit whining.

I wrote that the 3B threshold for an "average" player was higher, so you can't compare a 2B to a 3B, but higher or lower is irrelevant. Its a different position.

Comment on D'Arby Myers - With his flash in the pan success and with Quentin Berry's flash in the pan with Detriot, isn't that a case to give guys like Jiwan James and Zach Collier a shot to prove their tools will flourish at some point? I'm not advocating to build teams around them or whatever, but seeing that Myers and Berry both had mild success later than what they were expected to, why wouldn't you hang onto toolsy guys to see if they figure it out? Just rifting here, not making an argument either way.

Or maybe those guys are having success outside the Phillies organization due to coaching or instruction. Who knows.

lorecore: What's your projection for D'Arby Myers?

Again, this is what drives me nuts. Instead of MiniMac at SS, is there any reason in the world why Galvis shouldn't be given a shot? Among all the other reasons is the fact that as a fan it is much more fun to root for one of our own guys in a big league start than it is to endure another journeyman whose name most don't even know.

Courtesy of Baseball Prospectus, a visual interpretation of the scope of Vin Scully's broadcasting career. Simply amazing.

clout: I think he is org filler, i was just pointing out that he was on's main page for his hit streak, nothing more.

I agree 100% with can_of_corn's 4 pm post. And I don't think Galvis will be anything more than a utility guy going forward, but Mini-Mac? WTF

redburb: you can only keep a minor league under team control for so long. Berry had 5 MILB seasons with the Phillies before they let him go. And his 2012 season ended up pretty underwhelming, so much that the Tigers let him go already. He is now with the royals.

This defense argument might be Jake's finest moment yet.

lorecore: If that's the case then why did you write this: "Somehow Myers is gone but yet we still have Jiwan James wasting a roster space down in Clearwater."

Enter Mike, another BL poster who snipes from the sidelines without providing anything of value to the discussion, ever.

What is it with this team and Michael Young? He's more irritating than Mini-Mart ever was because he's always in the friggin lineup.

clout: because i think Jiwan James is just as, or worse, than darby myers.

lorecore: If that's the case then your comment about Myers v. James was utterly worthless, no?

awh - The wiki article on DS is very vague. It seems to suggest that the order is based on which positions are most "physically demanding". Is that correct?

an ex phillie with plenty of beerleaguer history is on the homepage of - i made mention of it, and even got a chance to randomly insult jiwan james. How is this a problem to you?

Zero value is better than negative value. I guess I hit a nerve.

jake: Wiki articles are generally summaries of sources of greater knowledge. Bill James has a vast amount of literature on the topic of baseball, and most is readily available online.

lore - Since ur so smart, tell us which formula was used to order the spectrum.

Jake: Generally, that's the idea, and it makes sense. The concern is not about what's "harder" in a theoretical, subjective sense so much as with the scarcity of players who can play that position sufficiently.

Basically, the pool of people who can play SS or CF or C at a sufficiently high level to play in the major leagues is really low. Much, much lower than the pool of people who can play 1B. Correspondingly, the bar for offense is a lot lower. Whereas, at 1B, since virtually every player could be adequate defensively there from a physical standpoint, you would assume something close to the top 30 offensive players who can't play elsewhere would be starting at 1B for major league teams. Thus the bar is really high offensively there.

That's the whole point of the defensive spectrum. It's about the pool of players who can adequately field that position. And yes, it's smaller for 2B than for 3B. Miguel Cabrera can play the position adequately enough to start at 3B for a major-league team. He could not play 2B.

lorecore: No prob. Always nice to catch you in a lie.

On 'Bark Night' will Amaro play the role of Timmy Martin, get trapped in an elevator, and need a border collie playing Lassie to rescue him?

Jack - Thanks for the explanation, I think we can all agree that most of the spectrum is correct. 1B is the easiest, and SS/C are damn difficult & physically taxing. I just don't think you can prove that 2B is more difficult than 3B. It requires a different skill set, and certain players are more suited for each position.

3B requires faster reaction time, for hard liners coming right at you, and soft dribblers/bunts up the line. 3Bs need to get to a ball, pick it, and throw it in one fluid motion nearly every play because they are farthest from 1B. A 2B or SS can bobble a ball and still get an out, a 3B can hardly ever get away with that.

Cabrera can't play good 2B, but can Utley play good 3B? I doubt it.

"What is it with this team and Michael Young? He's more irritating than Mini-Mart ever was because he's always in the friggin lineup."

September 1 is just around the corner...

I thought Cabrera was supposed to be horrible at 3B and would give up a ton of his value playing there. Is he really not that bad? Why was he moved to 1B?

The lineup seems pretty good for going up against a LHP to me.
Young, Frandsen, Mayberry, Ruf should all be playing. Asche should sit. Probably want Utley and Brown in there. Only issue I have is with Rollins out.

And Jack, I understand your point about there being a smaller pool of players who can play 2B at the MLB level, but this discussion started with BAP stating that 2B was harder than 3B, and awh citing the Defensive Spectrum as evidence.

Split-squad lineup tonight. Just don't get the fact of why M. Young is starting at 3B over Asche. Serves no purpose tonight or next year.

My September Call Ups:

Jim Murphy or Cody Overbeck *roster move
Freddy Galvis
Sebatain Valle or Steve Lerud
Zach Collier
Tyson Gillies

Joe Savery
Mauricio Robles *roster move
Michael Nesseth *roster move

It's so sad Jake will have to go back to school next week.

I forgot Cesar, long live CESAR!

Re that callup list: why bother?

CS - Hail CESAR!

"The way Hamels has been pitching, the bullpen might not make a difference. He has a 2.05 ERA over his last nine starts with a 1.00 WHIP."

Remember after the first few months when BAP and others whined that Hamels had regressed and immediately declared that his contract was a disaster? That was pretty funny.

"Remember after the first few months when BAP and others whined that Hamels had regressed and immediately declared that his contract was a disaster?"

I don't profess to remember every post I've ever written, but I am 99.99% sure that is total bullshit. The burden is on the one making the assertion to prove it is true.

Family Tree

TTI mated with Clout
Produces Jake and DPatrone and various other dopes.

Sorry I forgot

TTI mates with Clout
Produces DPatrone, Jake and Iceman plus various other dopes.

No Tom tonight.

JESUS, a whole game of Sarge??

"Miley's got that retro '50s backwoods look." -L.A.

The 2013 Phillies are the best team ......for me to poop on.

Sorry I was working on a Bark in the Park joke.

Wade Miley's dad was a country western one hit wonder guy who previously pitched for Houston

ruffyyyyy !!!

I'm glad RAJ & Co. felt the need to move Dom to LF & sign Delmon "Tub o' Crap" Young because Ruf couldn't possibly do any better.

I was assured by many here that Ruf could not hit MLB pitching.

Remember guys, Ruf is a chump. Grumpy ass Bill Baer says so.


goosewurst sighting.

Love this description:

David Murphy ‏@ByDavidMurphy 2m
Still amazed at improvement of Ruf and Brown in the OF. Not long ago both played the outfield like there were air raid sirens blaring

Ruf sucks.

Is it my imagination or is that like the 4th or 5th time this year that Dom has completely lost a fly ball?

And just as improvement is

so that's homeruns in 2 ABs in a row for babe.

If I had to identify Wheels' single most annoying trait, it's his propensity to act like the batter just did something positive when he makes an out but the runner advances a base.

Sarge perfect;says got to square it up at least once an inning.

It's funny. I forgot to close out an older thread when I stepped away from my laptop. I can now flip between Jake arguing that 3B is harder than 2B and Jake arguing that because of the difficulty in comparing different positions, no one can prove that 2B is harder than 3B.

chooch is back.

The Bank just got loud's a nice sound to hear

How much better are we now that Sandberg isn't manning 3B?

Glad to see that Chooch is fixing to set right his career-long underpayment.

I'd just prefer that someone else pay him.

Ruf will get more patient with runners on base, won't he?

Ruf needs to practice this RISP part of his game.

Chooch has come on like gangbusters in August. Always been a guy who hits much better after the ASB.

Ok. Time for Jimmy to come in.

I'm not saying my posts are any good, but can they at least show up every once in a while?

Mini Mac might be worse than Mini Mart.

Is Charlie back managing this team? Why the hell was old MacDonald up in that situation?

Its the end of August in a lost season. Why are old MacDonald and old Young even in the lineup? Or on the team for that matter.

Just wondering why MiniMac wasn't pulled for someone with an average of over 2.0. I know he has had success with the bases full, but when?

Seems the crowd is feisty. I heard boos for MiniMac and Young.

Why was McDonald batting? Why is he on this team? He's old enough to be Jake's dad.

Can mini-Mart do THAT??

Asche would've had that. Just sayin'.

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