Part of

« Phils face tough stretch after break, but they're not alone | Main | Game 97: Phillies' second half begins with Mets »

Thursday, July 18, 2013


Brain Wilson anybody?

Mike, what is Gregerson's ERA+.. Seems to me his lofty ERA might be benefitting from pitching in Petco.


Gregorson - Good option for an 8th inning RHP to work in tandem with Bastardo.
K-Rod - no thanks
Axford - If no one better is available.
Cishek - I'll take a 27 year old solid closer, but he probably won't be traded.


BTW, Mike, here's a suggestion for you, Corey, et. el.

On MLB Trade Rumors, when they post a player's name, that name is also set up as a link to that player's page.

Do you think it's possible you guys might be able to take the extra step and match what the guys at MLBTR do?

Just for some additional cannon fodder (and to show the writers here what it looks like if a player's name also serves as a link), here's a link to Steve Adams' article on the trade market for Right-Handed Relief Pitchers over at mlbtr:

To wit: Jonathan Papelbon gets extensive coverage.

Random baseball-related comment:

I was watching the ASG on a feed of ESPN America from Europe ( blacks out national broadcasts) and following the game they did a short tribute to Mariano, followed by an interesting story about the DH and the National League.

In 1980 the Cardinals spearheaded a campaign to bring the DH to the NL because they thought the slower NL pace was causing a drop in attendance. They set up a meeting of NL teams to have a vote on whether to bring the DH to the NL. The Phillies had planned on voting in favor, not because of attendance, but because they had good hitters who played bad defense (sound familiar?). At the meeting it was announced that no changes would take place until the start of the 1982 season, which gave Phillies rep Bill Giles second thoughts about voting in favor. He repeatedly tried contacting team owner Ruly Carpenter to ask how to vote, but he was out fishing and he couldn't reach him. Eventually he had to vote, so he decided to abstain. The Pirates were instructed to vote however the Phillies voted, and the Astros had planned on abstaining as well.

The final tally was 4 yes (Braves, Mets, Cardinals, Padres), 5 no (Cubs, Reds, Expos, Dodgers, Giants), and 3 abstentions (Phillies, Pirates, Astros).

It's amazing how close we came to having the DH in the National League.

I love this idea of reacquiring Schierholtz.

Let me see if I got this right: if Amaro gave up, say, a B prospect for Schierholtz, he'll have completed the following comprehensive transaction over the past 24 months:

Tommy Joseph
One year of Hunter Pence
Four months of Nate Schierholtz
Seth Rosin
$20ish million (cost of ditching Pence, not paying him this year, and non-rendering Schierholtz)

1 season + two months of Hunter Pence
4 months of Nate Schierholtz (dropped him for nothing, Cubs signed him
B/C prospect- just for fun, let's say Tommy Joseph!
Domingo Santana
Jarred Cosart
Jonathan Singleton
Josh Zeid

So he'll have bought and sold effectively the same amount of service time for two players (Schierholtz and Pence), given up five prospects for it, with Seth Rosin and $20 million to show for it.

It makes me want to puke.

Iceman - You win some you lose some. Look at the Halladay & Lee trades.

Villanueva would basically be the perfect pick-up. Which means Amaro likely won't even inquire about it. I thought they should have signed him in the offseason.

A run better as a reliever than starter in his career, he can do both. ERA of 3 this year as a reliever. He's actually having a very good year away from Wrigley. He can go multiple innings in relief and is under control next year.

Do this deal, please. I like Cishek a lot better (RHB with a sub-.500 OPS against him) but in terms of cost, he'd probably be too much.

Iceman - I'd pay up for Cishek. He's a 27 year old closer with great numbers, and he won't be a FA until 2018. If that's not worth a top prospect, idk what is.

Iceman, read the article I linked. Fish apparently want a team's top prospect for Cishek.

awh- if that's true, it isn't worth it for a reliever.

Jake- but these aren't individual trades. This is twice that Amaro will have had a change of heart on a player in less than 12 months and managed to give up way more than he got in dual transactions (and in Schierholtz's case, three) because he changed his mind.

When he was saying he doesn't do 'planning,' he sure as hell wasn't kidding.

Iceman - Yes, it is infuriating. How about dealing Lee in 2009 for prospects, then trading prospects for Oswalt later in the year. Another Classic RAJ move.

No mention here of the White Sox Jesse Crain?

Apparently, he may be available and off the DL before the deadline. Also, he's a rental, so there would be no obligation (and therefore, a presumably lower price) past this season.

If he like Philly and re-signs (not likely, but possible) the back end next year would be Pap, Adams, Crain, Bastardo.

And they'd be buying Schierholz high. A solid prospect for a fringes guy having a career year.

If he like Philly and re-signs (not likely, but possible) the back end next year would be Pap, Adams, Crain, Bastardo. - awh
That actually looks pretty good (but looks can be deceiving)

Jake, yes they can. Especially with relievers.

Kind of like the best looking girl in High School with an attitude problem. :)

Jake- if it is true what TTI said is in the book (Monty thought they needed prospects for the farm if they made the Halladay deal), to the contrary of what I've said in the past, it's pretty stupefying. Pretty clear that Monty doesn't do the whole '5 year plan' thing either.

I actually believe that Amaro was shopping Blanton for prospects because he truly had no idea what he'd be worth. It's clear he has no idea how to value young talent- that was clear in the trade of Lee after the Blanton/Boston deal didn't work out.

Some think he's lying and that it was about money, but I truly think that Amaro/Monty believed they could get an adequate haul for Blanton. From a baseball standpoint, they're basically clueless. Most of the signings Amaro has made that have worked out are proven talent. And going back looking at some of the FA signings Monty approved of before the recent run of success (Eric Milton, Adam Eaton, David Bell, and others), he's as clueless as RAJ. Those guys were names, so he bought them to excite the fan base.

The Halladay extension and Lee (re-) signings were the biggest no brainers in the history of the club.

And that's the reason I kind of can't believe Amaro managed to pull off that Revere trade. He flew in the face of conventional wisdom (people believed he paid too much) on who he should sign in CF, traded a guy (Worley) at the absolute peak of his value (along with a prospect whose stock was falling precipitously) for a league-average CF young enough to improve his overall skill set.

Maybe it was all an accident, but it's a move with a hell of a lot of foresight that put the team in a better position both financially, in CF over the long term (I'd take Revere over Upton, Pagan or Span over the length of his contract), and even gave them an upgrade in the starting rotation over Worley (who completely flamed out this year, while Lannan has a sub-4 ERA).

RAJ and Paul Holmgren are very similar in their failures.

But let's give RAP for acquiring Revere. Seems like it's going to work out.


Ice~ Your comments are dead-on. That's why I talked about not making bad deals at the deadline. Don't forget D. Young in there because that's who's in RF. The Pence deal would have been so bad if they kept him for 1 more year (2013) & then possibly signed him to an extension.

Also, it sounds worse when you think about the options he had compared to the options he now has. You must understand, I never said he was a bad GM, just that maybe he doesn't always do what's best for the team. Your outline above proves that. When you're right, as in this case, I'll be the first one to tell you. All of this is like buy a car you think you like, keeping it for a while, then deciding it wasn't for you, trading out of for something else, then realizing you may have made a mistake in the first place. If they really do make decisions by committee, maybe RAJ should put his foot down more.

As far as the Revere trade, it wasn't that Amaro was so smart, it was that the Twins was so stupid. They lost 2/3 of their starting OF for Vance Worley.

Meant Pence deal wouldn't have been so bad.....

Jake, interesting DH story. Thanks!

Ice~ I just read your comments to my posts at the and of the last thread & going back to my comments there, it just proves what I've said in that thread about you. Obviously, you're an intelligent guy, but you're not the only one. I acknowledged why they didn't sign Cuddyer. You're right, it's dumb contract. And he may be the 2nd worst defensive OF'der in the league, but to me he's still better that DYoung. As far as Beltran, I wasn't pining for him after he signed with Cards. I believe what I said was something like "there's another one Amaro didn't get".

Now I said a long time ago basically what Jake said to you. As far as Pence. he wasn't a bad player. And again, he's better than what we have in RF now. And if he were still there, maybe Howard's loss wouldn't hurt so much.

Re: Revere. I'm not nuts. If Chooch or anyone else gets the run home in game 1, the game is over. Revere doesn't get hurt in THAT particular game. You need to stop looking at things as only you see them. While I'm guilty of that as well, I at least realize that other people had very valid opinions. That's the difference between you and I.

As far as Pagan or any other Cf'der who was available this year, Amaro got lucky with Revere. I believe Pagan is hurt. And BJ is having a terrible year. But the Braves look like a playoff team & the Phils???. If you replace DYoung & Revere with the 2 Uptons, the Phils may be in first place. But like you say, water under the bridge.

Let's not call the Worley/revere trade a huge win for the Phillies just yet. One, there still time for Worley to right the ship, and two, May is having a good year in AA.

It's possible the Twinkies wind up with two middle rotation SP out of the deal, and that would be a decent haul for Revere.

Calling the Phils the winner of the Revere deal is ridiculous. A guy who was basically a 1-WAR guy so far this year.

Going be at least another 2 years especially where May is and what happens with Worley.

Still think Worley ends up in the pen where his stuff works better and his struggles to throw 6 IP are mitigated. Doesn't have the stuff or durability to stick as a starter in the AL.

A guy that makes declarations on signings/trades basically five seconds after they're made (including lauding the Brandon League contract) saying that we have to wait two years on the Revere trade? That's rich.

And on its own, sure, you can't evaluate the trade for sure right now. Although if Nostradamus/MG is correct and Worley turns into a reliever for the duration of his contract (once he comes back from being dumped to AAA), I'm not sure how you can call it a bad trade. A reliever and a has-been prospect plummeting down scout's rankings for an everyday player making pennies. They can ditch Revere down the line if he doesn't work out and a better option pops up, and be no worse off for it.

But you have to also evaluate what the move meant to the team, and the choices that were on the table at the time. Signing a CF on the wrong side of 30 to a 3-4 (or 5 in Upton's case) year deal at $10 million+, all of whom (beside Bourn, who MG didn't want) are either drastically underpeforming or are on the DL.

Long-term, what would have been the better move? Not sure you can come up with one, unless Fowler could've been had for little (doubtful). It even came with an upgrade in the rotation for 2013.

I'd bet decent money on this being a good trade when all is said and done for the Phils, while the other Twins OF that was dealt- and is a shell of what he was as a rookie- was had for a prospect that is now in the top 40, with more than $10 million left on his contract.

May is not having a good year. An ok year while repeating a level.

RAJ even picking up the phone to ask about Schierholtz is going to make him look like a dumb ass, let alone giving up any player that has even a little value. For that reason alone, it ain't happening.

No love for BL and feminists favorite Brett Meyers?
He's old enough and has a checkered past.
He'd fit right in to the chemistry of the club house.


By the time this road trip is finished, they will be in the sell mode. I think this trip will expose them for what they are this year, a flawed team made worse by key injuries. They did well to make it to .500 at the break, I don't see them doing any better the rest of the way. Trying to add to this team, especially if it means using what's left of the farm system in trade, will be just throwing good money after bad.

I've got a real sense of deja vu. It's this past offseason all over again. Spent the offseason watching other clubs aggressively signing the better FA's available while the Phillies barely made a ripple. Now we see other clubs actively working to improve themselves before the trade deadline while the Phillies send Cesar Hernandez to try to AA to convert him to a center fielder in the middle of a season.

I said it a time or two before this season. The word the comes to mind when I think of the Phillies organization is desultory.

that guy, please, then, define a "good year" in AA.

Sure, he doesn't look like a world beater, but his numbers show a bit of improvement. He looks to be lowering his BB%, which has always been a problem for him.

The one caveat is that his is 23 years old.

Interesting to read this morning that the Phillies are supposedly among the teams interested in Cuban defector Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez, who supposedly could help this year. Doubt it will happen, but interesting.

A good year in your 2nd duty at AA would require some significant improvements in your peripherals. He's givng up more hits/9 and striking out less. He has improved his control but still much too high.

Yes he's 23 but he's repeated levels twice now.

I don't want any of those guys.

Perhaps Gregerson, but LHBs hit him too well to just hand him the 8th/9th. If he were to work in conjunction with Bastardo, then maybe. But I don't necessarily think that would happen.

Cishek? Perhaps. But I don't think he's going anywhere.

And, most importantly, I think trading for middle relief is really, really stupid.

Rangers are going all in for Matt Garza with a "strong package of prospects" centered on Mike Olt and

I mean, I like Matt Garza and all but really? Garza, yet another guy having his best year ever during a walk year.

That should read "Mike Olt and CJ Edwards"...meant to write that second name before hitting post.

Gregerson is a great setup guy but for some reason he seems to fail in the closer spot (not that we need a closer). My guys is he has a high dithl ratio.

I'd love Cishek but he has so many controllable years left that I don't know if Miami is that dumb.

How the hell is Marlon Byrd slugging .502?

I wonder if Garza is the consolation prize for Texas after they maybe inquired about Lee?

Agree with others above, don't really see why Miami would move Cishek unless someone blew them away with an offer. Not worth it IMO.

Would it be worth if they somehow moved Papelbon?

Joe D - You mean like trading Papelbon to Detroit for a good package, then flipping that package for Cishek?

Interesting idea. Detroit probably wants a proven guy like Papelbon over Cishek, while the Phillies need to get younger but can't afford to have no closer.

FWIW, closing games for a lst place team is a completely different horse than closing them for a team where it matters.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. I just don't think Detroit is going to take on Papelbon now. He's been shaky of late and I think they might just ride it out with Benoit who performed well in Octobers past.

Replacing Pap with Cishek is pointless. They need to ADD to the bullpen, not replace their best reliever. That's just moving sideways.

Is it baseball season yet? This 4 days of no Phillies games is killing me. BL is starting to read like it does in the offseason, filled with hypothetical GM trades, deals and decisions. I want a game!

Not really sure how it's pointless. If you feel Cishek can equal the first half Papelbon gave you then you aren't losing anything. You are maintaining. Then you have a cheap closer for the foreseeable future.

Serious note though, if we could make such a trade, why wouldn't the Tigers just deal directly with the Marlins?

Its not gonna happen either way FWIW.

These past 4 days without a game* have been brutal. To add to the brutality, TCM has been showing some dogs lately.

* I realize the all star game was on Tuesday, but it doesn't really do it for me.

Well yeah it's not going to happen.

Don't have Garza's numbers here, but if the rumored package of players is true, what we have been proposing for Lee sounds about right (3-4 of a team's top 5 prospects).

Serious note though, if we could make such a trade, why wouldn't the Tigers just deal directly with the Marlins? - NEPP
Maybe they want a guy with postseason experience. They are in "all in" mode, unlike the Phillies, who could see value in a guy who hasn't proven himself on a 1st place team, or in the postseason, but is younger and under team control until 2018. Lake Fred is right, these hypothetical trades are pointless to discuss, but what else is there to talk about during the ASB?

The all star break is the absolute worst.

Post-season experience is nice, but if the Phillies see Cishek as a rough equivalent of Papelbon (with lower salary, longer control, and less age), I imagine the Tigers would feel the same. Additionally, they wouldn't be trading in-division (or even in-league), so the Marlins likely wouldn't demand as high a price as they would for us.

I don't necessarily dislike the idea of trading Papelbon and acquiring Cishek, but I think they have to be two distinct moves. Papelbon could bring back an outfielder and a middling prospect (or multiple above-average prospects/1 really good prospect if we chip in some cash), but we'd have to use some of our own prospects/young MLB guys to get Cishek.

Overall, it just doesn't sound very viable if we want to improve the BP while also not giving up significant depth.

I think a lot of the suggested trades here recently have been a bit insane (did someone really insist on Marte and Taillon for Lee?), but a Papelbon/Cishek 3-way trade would actually make a bit of sense. The Tigers went into this season with the terrible Jose Valverde instead of the much more talented Rondon because they placed such a high value on experience in the closer role. I imagine they would prefer Papelbon to Cishek, we would prefer Cishek to Papelbon, and the Marlins would prefer prospects to either.

Mike Olt has a .705 OPS in AAA this year. Has he been hurt?

Mike Olt has a .705 OPS in AAA this year. Has he been hurt?

Posted by: Benny Profane | Friday, July 19, 2013 at 11:26 AM

Supposedly he had major vision issues in Apr/May and they (ie Rangers medical staff) finally figured it out.


They consulted with the great MLB visual acuity expert Charlie Sheen.

I imagine they would prefer Papelbon to Cishek, we would prefer Cishek to Papelbon, and the Marlins would prefer prospects to either. - DH Phils
Precisely. Although I have zero faith in RAJ making a bold move like this. Zero.


April 4 - June 2 (incl 4 AA games)

June 3 - July 18

actually 3 AA games

Honestly, I have my doubts they would prefer Papelbon to Cishek enough to cancel out the 3 more negative aspects of his contract.

They got burned once already this season by overvaluing "experience" over skillset, they might be leery of doing so again.


I think he will float around for the next 2-3 years as a starter but ultimately he ends up as a reliever.

Hell, plenty of former starters end up in the bullpen and do quite a nice job. Villanueva is on that list.

Clout (when he is being a curmudgeon) said the Phils should have made a strong push to sign Villanueva or Gorzelanny. Two guys who have both excelled out of the bullpen this year respectively for the Cubs and Brewers.

This all goes back to the Phils being incredibly $hitting at develop bullpen talent (love to see the valuable teams have gotten from home-grown relievers the last 15 or 20 years), throwing lots of money at the problem, and doing so in a foolish fashion.

"Precisely. Although I have zero faith in RAJ making a bold move like this. Zero."

Yeah. Because Rube never does anything bold.

donc - Has he ever made a bold 3-way move like that?

I think people have to realize that it takes to sides to make a trade. And GM's, no matter how much we think so, are not generally stupid. Especially now that Ed Wade is out of baseball. What's that you say?

No GM in his right mind would trade for Papelbon now if Cishek can be had for similar return. The money aside (because the Phils would surely have to eat at least half the contract), Papelbon has blown FIVE saves and has looked pretty shot doing it. It may be because of his hip problem, but that just makes it that much more certain that Cishek is the better option. Post season experience is completely overrated. How much did post season experience count for Cliffie against the Cards? I would much rather go into a post season with Cishek than this crappy version of Papelbon and so would any sane GM.

Rube screwed the pooch on this acquistion and there's no mistaking it. He gave up a first round draft pick AND overpaid AND gave too many years. It is his signature move.

The Halladay trade was effectively a 3-way deal but, I'm not sure if Amaro knew it until after it went down.

two, not to.

The Halladay deal involved 3 teams if I'm not mistaken. The guy has balls. I don't see how you can argue that. What he hasn't proven is that he can be creative without just writing a gigantic check. He's now in the position of having limited resources. He needs to show a different kind of ability here. But what else would you call the Halladay trade and both Lee acquisitions if not bold?

A "bold" 3 way move? Don't know, but I heard he drank a cup of Emeril's Bold coffee this morning.

And Smitty makes a very good point that I think some people are missing. If Joe Savery is the human white flag, Paps has become the human red flag. He has struggled the last few weeks and looked terrible doing it.

Just for some additional cannon fodder (and to show awh some etiquette)

This is some guidelines for not being a dick online

Seriously dude- get off the writer's jocks about stupid things, and things that JW never did either.

he Halladay trade was effectively a 3-way deal but, I'm not sure if Amaro knew it until after it went down.

Posted by: Hugh Mulcahy | Friday, July 19, 2013 at 12:29 PM

I'm pretty sure that that 3 way violated the golden rule...

I would much rather go into a post season with Cishek than this crappy version of Papelbon - aksmith
Yes you would, but Dave Dombrowski might not agree with you.

Making a 'bold move' for a middle reliever is exactly the wrong thing to do and I don't want Amaro to do that.

Still like the idea of swinging a 3-way trade that involves M. Young (and a lesser prospect) to grab a veteran RHP reliever. Not expecting a great reliever or necessarily even a solid reliever. Basically rolling the dice on a reliever who will likely be a FA this offseason but aren't giving up much in the process either.

Acquiring a guy like M. Thornton who was essentially a salary dump by the White Sox for a very mediocre AA prospect was a solid move.

Red Sox essentially gave up a Collier or Hewitt albeit a bit better. I could care less if Amaro trades 100 guys like Hewitt.

Signing KRod when he was going around begging for a job this spring and even into the season might have been a good move especially in April after this team's pathetic middle relief performance early on. Brewers didn't sign him until April 17th.l

Rube screwed the pooch on this acquistion and there's no mistaking it. He gave up a first round draft pick AND overpaid AND gave too many years. It is his signature move.

Posted by: aksmith | Friday, July 19, 2013 at 12:29 PM

Come on now, its not like there was a comparable closer...



~coughs again~

...available that would have signed for half as many years...



~coughs again~

...and half as much money per year...



~coughs again~

...and who wouldn't have cost a 1st round pick. That's just ridiculous.

I think someone like Axford or maybe even a Badenhop from Milwaukee would help in the bullpen. The latter probably costs much less than the former.

Is it Friday yet?

Posted by: R.Billingsly | Wednesday, July 17, 2013 at 07:50 AM

Posted by: Cyclic | Wednesday, July 17, 2013 at 11:24 AM

Is it 7:10pm yet?

Papelbon deal wasn't even as horrendous on the money front as it was the years.

I couldn't believe the Phils gave him 4 guaranteed years for a guy whose bread and butter pitch was his fastball & his ability to throw it at 94-95 regularly and have very good control of it.

Papelbon still has good fastball control but it is now routinely at 91-92 and when he dials it up 93 (rarely 94) he loses command & control on it.

It was really an incredibly stupid signing on several fronts. Even the Red Sox supposedly offered him a 3-yr deal but it a much more moderate terms supposedly.

I bet Amaro was the only guy to offer him 4 guaranteed years and as usual acting as the 'first-mover' resulted in Amaro misreading the market place and overpaying in terms of years and dollars.

Jake - Here's the thing. You're assuming that Dombrowski is either blind or stupid. I assume neither. If you don't want Papelbon closing for a team you think has a chance at the playoffs, then why would Dombrowski?

See, the reality is that there is only one Ed Wade and one Ruben Amaro. We can only pray that there is a third GM out there stumbling blindly in the daylight, I guess.

Is KRod even allowed to leave Wisconsin? I think that's part of his probation agreement.

In some respects too, Papelbon deal is even dumber than Howard's especially if you look at some of the deals that were handed out to FA power hitters after Howard's deal.

****See, the reality is that there is only one Ed Wade and one Ruben Amaro. We can only pray that there is a third GM out there stumbling blindly in the daylight, I guess. ***

Unfortunately, nobody has been willing to give Minaya or Bavasi GM jobs so we're probably out of luck.

The only slim possibility is that an Owner like Mike Illitch overrules his GM to get that final piece. He did that when they signed Fielder to that massive deal and had to move Miguel Cabrera to 3B instead.

Let's not forget too that the Adams deal completely backfired on the Phils (which is why they are in this predicament) with the capper being the Phils are going to spend $7M on him next year and have no idea if he will be able to pitch.

"The only slim possibility is that an Owner like Mike Illitch overrules his GM to get that final piece. He did that when they signed Fielder to that massive deal and had to move Miguel Cabrera to 3B instead."

Exactly what I was going to say. The hope is that the owner will push or a deal, and Illitch specifically is looking for a title before he croaks.

And if you don't think people in many baseball circles (Jim Leyland, for example), would value Papelbon over Cishek because he is a 'proven closer,' you're giving them way too much credit. Kevin Towers is also someone that is completely unpredictable.

Are the Phillies planning to make a roster move? I don't care if it's Tyson Gillies or Josh Fields or Cesar Hernandez. They are all of more use to the team than Humberto Quintero. Even Mini-Mart is, arguably, of more use to the team than Humberto Quintero.

If MG had his way, the Phils would've signed Brandon League to a 3 year, 25 million dollar contract to pitch the sixth inning.

Leyland and Manuel have the same book on bullpen usage and, Leyland may even adhere to it more strictly. If he has a say in the hypothetical choice b/w Papelbon and Cishek, he's taking the veteran Papelbon every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Is it Friday yet?

Posted by: R.Billingsly | Wednesday, July 17, 2013 at 07:50 AM

Posted by: Cyclic | Wednesday, July 17, 2013 at 11:24 AM

Is it 7:10pm yet?

Posted by: Jake


Haha. Love it.

Bay area, Pat Gallen confirmed that roster move(s) are due today. The phillies aren't going to carry three catchers, and I doubt Cesar is ready to start in CF. Also, Horst may be activated, why I don't know.

2 stats of the day. (Actually the last 4 days.

Phils are the only NL team with a streak at the break, a 2 game winning streak. All other teams are at 1, won or lost.

The Mets are a NL worst 10 games under at home.

Horst up, Yo-Yo Savery back down, possibly?

The Phillies couldn't afford to fall behind in the "guys who sit around on stools" race.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories


Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel