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Tuesday, July 30, 2013


F U Michael Young.

I hope M. Young enjoys the 2 months of solid booing he's gonna get now.

What a POS.

If they greased the wheels enough to have him waive his NTC the first time around, why the hell didn't they just take care of the whole thing? Even the eternal optimists would still have the mindset that there's a good chance a veteran on a 1yr deal would be a trade candidate in case our season doesn't work out.

Another winning move by RAJ

Just bench Young and make him watch the rest of this season like the rest of us.

And deal with his teammates every day...That should go over well.

C'mon, Texas doesn't want Young back. They'd been trying to ease him out gracefully for years.

Screw benching him...I'd move him to SS and watch him humiliate himself every single night on routine groundballs.

I don't think they could re-write the contract and remove the NTC without first dealing with MLBPA, commissioner's office, etc. You can't just write something out of a contract in a collectively bargained system.

The player can choose to waive it, but that is a one-time occurrence and doesn't nullify the clause.

can r00b do anything right?

Jake: What on earth are you talking about? Brown has been the team's best offensive player and has missed a grand total of six games. - Jack
I believe it was 5 games, and here is how it affected the Phillies.

Before Brown's injury:
49-51 record / 7 games back

After 5 games:
49-56 record / 11.5 back

Like I said, injuries to Brown & Revere are what KO'd the Phillies.

If MYoung is staying...

Ruf LF
Brown RF
MYoung 1B
Frandsen/Asche 3B

Jake - The part I keep missing is that you insist "49-51 record / 7 games back" is contending. I'd rather suck for a year and then have a REAL shot at contending than watch slightly below .500 baseball for years.

Cyclic - I like.

Young's probably trying to exercise what little leverage he has. Wouldn't surprise me if he eases up on the demand if Texas remains out. Can't see him wanting to play sparingly over the rest of this season instead of getting into a race and potentially playing for another 1-year contract.

No, just put him on the suspended list and make him sit out the rest of the season.

Why don't they have michael young pitch in the BP? What could it hurt at this point.

Deal him to the Astros if he likes Texas so much.

"I'd move him to SS and watch him humiliate himself every single night on routine groundballs."

3B seems to be humiliating him just fine.

ChrisVT: You are probably right. Do you know if a player's 10-5 rights are gone once he moves to another team and plays less than 5 years for them?

It's really amazing that he would rather play for the Phillies than a team in the pennant race. Shows a ton about his character.

Chris - 49-51 and 7 games back is not contending, but its 'in the hunt' with the possibility of a run if the team bought at the deadline. Losing 2/3 of your outfield (with DYoung being the 3rd) literally killed this team.

If Young blocks a move to a team less than 90 miles from Philly, he is a POS.

Please bring this back: Last page of comments

Jake: I'm sorry, but I just can't do this anymore.

There's no point to even discussing with you if you really think that Dom Brown missing the last 6 games is what made this a bad team this year.

That's just mind-boggling.

Just like ground balls it seems like a good trade is also just out of the reach of Michael Young

MYoung not waiving his NTC, is depriving us of what exactly?

Remember Michael Cisco, the player we traded for free?

3.69 ERA and a 1.209 WHIP in 46 IP split across some time starting/relieving.

Or in other words, better than almost our entire bullpen.

I wonder if RAJ bothered to talk to Young about the NTC before calling up Asche.

In the grand scheme of things, Mike Young wasn't bringing back much anyway. I'm glad the team is moving on and bringing up Asche regardless... Or, maybe the team is bringing up Asche to show Young he's not going to be playing here if he stays so might as well move along.

Jack - You are a pessimist through & through who thought this team sucked from the beginning, so there is no convincing you otherwise -- but -- if the Phillies had Revere & Brown, do you think its possible they go .500 on the road trip? Because if they did, they would still be in the hunt, and buying at the deadline. So yes, those two injuries killed the team.

In defense of Young, he did accept a trade here on his own conditions.

If the Red Sox won't trade Bogaerts, is Jackie Bradley blah blah blah worth it (not really). Why not Clay Buchholtz for Lee?


Hold on....


Incredible job by Amaro with this team.

lorecore - Yes, 10 and 5 rights are gone once the player leaves the team he earned them with.

You mean the Clay Bucholz who is currently injured?

I bet we could get back Bonilla and Lindblom for Young. They are worse now than when we traded them.

Before Brown's injury:
49-51 record / 7 games back

After 5 games:
49-56 record / 11.5 back

Like I said, injuries to Brown & Revere are what KO'd the Phillies.

Posted by: Jake | Tuesday, July 30, 2013 at 01:35 PM

That and the fact they played 2 of the best teams in the league and were outscored 42-10. Did the injuries come at the worst possible time? Yes. Are they the sole reason? No.

Dom Brown missed 5 games, 3 of which they lost by 8+ runs anyway. His absence made no difference.

Angry Beerleaguers: if your employer offers to transfer you (and your family) to a strange city, and you say no, for whatever reason, per the rights that you bargained for, does anyone call you a POS?

Make M. Young play catcher...ha ha ha.

I'm starting to suspect that Jake is not a serious poster arguing in good faith. That 1:35 post is out of the realm of what I would expect from a serious poster.

No way losing the best player (after a string of other injuries) could have any effect on the psyche of major league ballplayers.

I don't get the vitriol towards MYoung either.

If the company in that strange city was about to hit the jackpot and offer a ton of bonuses, yes.

Jake: The phillies pitching gave up 7 runs a game in their last two series. Please tell me how Ben Revere and Domonic Brown would have allowed the team to win those games.

Before you villify Young, remember that the Rangers paid him a $1.2M bonus *and* he got a full no-trade from the Phils for waiving his 10-and-5 rights with Texas. Amaro knew that Young didn't want to be traded from Texas in the first place, and that Young didn't want to go anywhere else this year when the Phils acquired him.

RAJ needed to have the NTC issue worked out before Asche was called up. If he didn't, it's on RAJ, not Young.

I agree with Steve/DH.

Reading some of the Young comments reminds me why the national media has the view it has on Philadelphia fans.

Angry Beerleaguers: if your employer offers to transfer you (and your family) to a strange city, and you say no, for whatever reason, per the rights that you bargained for, does anyone call you a POS?

Posted by: DH Phils | Tuesday, July 30, 2013 at 01:53 PM

If my employer is a failing company, and they are offering to move me to a company that is thriving and has a chance to comtinue to advance my career, knowing that it will only be for a few months and then I can have the opportunity to choose the next place I work, after I get a few months' vacation?

Nobody would call me a POS, but they'd sure wonder why I was such a fvcking idiot.

DH: will trade to city X put me on a nearly completed project that is likely to be a big deal for the company and for which I will get a ton of credit and goodwill and money despite coming in at the very end?

Is it possible that Michael Young has a good reason to exercise his no-trade clause (family, or some other reason)? Or is the null hypothesis that he is just a dick trying to spite the Phillies out of a C-level prospect?

DH Phils: If my company was going to get some type of bonus or special perk based on me leaving the office and going to another one, then Yes they certainly would call me a POS for declining.

DH Phils: Normally, I agree with you.

However, in this case, it's sort of ridiculous. The Phillies and Young have been (or by any account should have been) aware that this scenario might come to pass from the start.

If I were Amaro, I absolutely would've questioned Young on his comfort level with being traded mid-season before I even agreed to bring him on in the first place. If he said no then, then it's a ridiculous position Amaro put himself in.

If Young said he was open to it and then just now changed his mind, that's his perogative, but it's also worthy of some criticism, given the nature of the business he's in. And guys with no-trade clauses usually get compensated in some way for waiving it. The same way most employees end up saying yes to a transfer to an international office because of a nice cost-of-living adjustment.

So, Baseball Player = Office Worker?

Chris said it better than I did

DH Phils - I realize that it's hard for you to admit that the Phillies were actually in the hunt before losing Brown & Revere, since you probably wrote the team off in April, but that doesn't change reality. They were in the hunt until this road trip.

This gives you a little insight into Young's thought process when he came to Philly:

I 100% think that Michael Young has good intentions of keeping his NTC.

I 100% don't give a flying F what his good intentions are. His millionaire problems are not worth my team considering.

If Brown had played those games he likely would have averaged 4 HRs a game an we sweep both the Tigers and Cards...

lorecore - A better offense could have turned 4 of the losses into wins. Count em.

*time, altho team works too i guess.

DH Phils: Jake has completely lost touch with reality.

Roy Halladay was the Phillies #2 starter coming into the season and has missed three months. Yet somehow Dom Brown missing 6 games when the team was already below .500 is a more significant injury.

He's either just messing with us (likely), or he's an idiot.

"I'm starting to suspect that Jake is not a serious poster arguing in good faith."

I think he's absolutely posting in good faith. But I don't think we'll be seeing much of him once summer vacation ends and 6th grade starts anew.

Some people just need to spew vitriol at someone. MYoung is merely exercising his right not to be bounced around the country like a pinball.

I'm not willing to assume Amaro didn't know this already. There are a lot of erroneous "reports" this time of year, including the one from earlier that said MYoung would accept a trade to all contenders or something like that.

It's not like he's going to be shipped out to the west coast. He's going to be staying on the east coast and playing for October.

jake: they lost by 2 or less runs twice. They weren't in contention before they played the Cards/Tigers. They aren't in contention now. They wouldn't be in contention if DOM didn't miss games - and I assure you I think highly of what DOM does.

Again - most people's foresight is more accurate than your hindsight.

Amaro could very well have called up Asche today because Young invoked his NTC. Might just be telling him he's on his way out, much like a trade for Bogaerts could suddenly change Rollins' tune.

Michael Young is refusing a 2/3 month assignment that would offer him a better opportunity to do his job. That's pretty dumb no matter how you look at it.

TK - He still has the right to refuse it, and that doesn't make him a "POS".

Fair point, Hugh.

Here's another possibility: maybe this report is BS and Young is perfectly willing to waive his NTC.

lorecore - Like I said, no point in discussing this with someone who thought the Phillies were dead since April. We can agree to disagree.

If Young is serious, his reasons are probably personal and he considers them sufficient. I tend to believe he's just looking for something for Michael Young for waiving it.

Jack has never heard of the "straw that broke the camel's back". Hmmm.

BAP, he'll probably waive it if the Phils make it worth his while. In the words of the "Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase, everybody's got a price.

Jake: Stop. This is a ridiculous argument, and you know it, or should know it. I'm not even talking about Revere. They were marginally in the hunt until this road trip. They went 1-3 and had a 5% chance of making the playoffs when Brown got hurt. Then they lost 5 games, 3 of which were blowouts. There is no argument that the Brown injury ruined the season. And what I said before the season is not relevant, but I'm not a knee-jerk pessimist by any means - I don't remember what I said, but I tend to skew optimistic, so I was probably wrong about this team in April.

Re: Young, yeah, my analogy isn't totally fair, I agree. And if Michael Young flip-flopped on Amaro, that's worthy of criticism. I assume that Young has a good reason to exercise his no-trade protection, and his not putting playoff contention above all other aspects of his life doesn't necessarily make him a POS. Even if he just wants to squeeze a million dollars out of someone, he bargained for that right, and exercising it does not make him a bad person.

Jake: So, if someone thought the Phillies wouldn't contend this year, that invalidates his opinion that they aren't contending when they're 7.5 games out of 1st place in late July?

Fact: The Phillies were treading water without Halladay. Losing Revere and Brown was the death blow.

Jake: Please define the lower boundary of your term "in the hunt" with a record or winning percentage.

You say a 49-51 team is "in the hunt." Is a 45-55 team still "in the hunt?"

yes, why discuss a subject with people who accurately predicted and backed up with facts a situation's outcome? It's almost as if you'd learn something from it.

Susdorf DFA'd. That was an expensive error.

I should note that I don't think Young is a bad person for exercising his rights, unless he told the Phils one thing and then completely switched on them.

But I do think, if the report is true, it's a little bit ridiculous (mostly on the Phililes' part) that it even came to this.

They should have known for a long, long time this was a possibility, and worked out whatever needed to be worked out then. Now, it's possible the Phillies have known this the whole time and hid it, and pretended to be dealing with the Sox, Yanks, and Orioles just to create leverage on the Rangers without the Rangers knowing they had all the leverage. But I find that implausible.

Yes, Jake. Please expand on "in the hunt" and "treading water".

How many games out would the Phillies need to be today, July 30th, in order for you to consider them out of the race? Please take into consideration the roster as currently constructed.

As usual, I get pounced on like raw meat in a lions den for suggesting that the Phillies had a chance when they were 7 games back with 60 to play.

So now M. Young has a case of regrets and want to go back to Texas even though they don't want him? Ugh.

Already a team that is tough to watch most nights and unlikeable too with a bunch of pouting veterans.

That you are dodging the question suggests you know you are wrong.

The Phillies may have had a chance, 7 games out with 60 games to play.

What's insane is to pretend like Roy Halladay being healthy and effective for the last three months wouldn't have given them a better chance of contending than Dom Brown missing six games.

Jack is trolling again. I never said that.

I guess that error cost Susdorf his job. Tough break.

Michael Young isn't contractually obligated to be a Phillies fan. Nor is the future winning percentage of the Phillies the highest conceivable moral good.

So, yeah, I'm not seeing much of a basis for morally condemning Michael Young.

Even if Michael Young stays beyond July 31, I would expect him to fill a bench role. Cody Asche is here to start every day.

Jake: You asked if my (accurate) prediction for the Phillies accounted for injuries.

I said yes, it wasn't hard to see injuries to the oldest team in the league coming (especially when Halladay and Howard missed time for the same type of injuries last year).

You then said it was actually Dom Brown's injury that made the difference between them contending or not.

Jake, you're correct in that until the number of games out exceeds the number of games remaining. It is still mathematically possible for the Phillies to overcome that deficit.

What you need to do is start to look at what is actually probable based on the General Manager making roster moves and the players on the field.

Even if Michael Young stays beyond July 31, I would expect him to fill a bench role. Cody Asche is here to start every day.

Posted by: Cyclic | Tuesday, July 30, 2013 at 02:21 PM

And if that's true, Young should be playing on a contending team and not the bench of the rebuilding Phillies. So he's placing comfort over winning? Or money over winning?

Jake: You have argued that the Phillies fell out of the race while Brown was out of the lineup. The evidence for this is questionable, but I'll grant you that point. You have presented no argument that the Phillies fell out of the race because Brown was out of the lineup.

Michael Young actively harming the future of the Phillies franchise (for whatever reason) shouldn't cause some Phillies fans to get upset with him?

Michael Young is like Rodney Dangerfield, he gets no respect.

His troubles of being benched seem to have following him from Texas to Philadelphia. I suggest he play better.

Has it occurred to anyone that Asche was called up regardless of Young being traded. This looks to me like a little merry go round.
Asche > 3B
3B > 1B (Young)
1B > LF (Ruf)
LF > obscurity

So Asche being called up was not related to any Young trade so to have a dig at Young is not really warranted

Didn't Cholly PH for M. Young the other day with Mini-Mart?

Have to wonder just what Cholly thinks of M. Young because he won't give you his true feelings until after the season is over.

When is Brown eligible to come off the DL? Does this mean he will replace YAK on the 25 man roster?!?!?!?!

Steve: "I don't get the vitriol towards MYoung either."

Then you don't understand the posters who remain on BL after 90% left when the Phils started losing.

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