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Saturday, June 08, 2013


At the time it happened, I said that there was no reason to remove Stutes. And the move looks even worse now that we know that all these pitchers were supposedly unavailable. I say "supposedly" because I think DeFratus's unavailability is an after-the-fact fabrication. He threw 5 pitches yesterday & 14 the day before. He certainly could have pitched.

Sure, don't bring anyone up, just let Adams sit in the pen for the next few games not being able to be used cause he is having bicep issues. ( any arm will do rather then no arm )

Whew, glad we are back at .500. I was getting a nosebleed from our short visit to the lofty heights of one game over.

Cliff Lee blowing a 4-0 lead with a chance to make some hay. Sounds familiar. I always love when they bring in Horst as if he's actually a lefty. He's just a person who throws a ball.

With Segura, Braun and ARam all coming up, the only guy who should have been pitching in the 9th was Mr. Papelbon. I guess he's only allowed to pitch when its a save situation or the game is tied in the 9th at home. That's the only role he is allowed to have.

If it goes to the 10th, then its up to Joe Savery against the bottom of the Brew order.

At least you would have gone down with your best on the mound. Not with your worst reliever (who happens to be LH) pitching against almost all righties.

The only surprise is that either Braun or ARam didn't hit one to Madison and end it with a dinger.

Jeremy Horst. It would be Jeremy Worst but he can't pick up a W.

"When I looked at it, I figured Horst might have a hard time."

Nice to know Horst has something hard.

Horst is miscast as anything other than a LOOGY, if that. There was little he could do but fail. All the more reason to have left Stutes in, as others have mentioned. He's still more trustworthy against their lefty PH than Horst is, basically at all.

When the game is tied, bring in Horst? What?

$12 million and Papelbon can't be allowed to face the middle of the Brewers lineup, all RH hitters, in the 9th inning.


Braves lose 2 straight to last place team. Must be doomed.

I need to start watching the games again. Listening to the game led me to believe that the defense lost the game.

Anybody else besides me feel a sense of doom come over them when Horst came in?

I felt sense of doom after cliff blew the 4-0 lead.

I like Charlie, but damn he bungled that badly. I know some like Left/Right matchups but Stutes was looking good in the 8th. Let him finish that inning.

Now the 9th comes up, and if you aren't gonna use Pap, then where the hell is Adams or DeFratus??? How can Horst be the best option? Can't even be mad at him, that was like sending a guy with a knife to a gun fight

No one will get on Lee for blowing a 4 run lead I bet.

"$12 million and Papelbon can't be allowed to face the middle of the Brewers lineup, all RH hitters, in the 9th inning."

Get your facts straight. $13 million.

No posts about the offense having just 1 hit after the 4th? Right, 4 runs is plenty. It's all on Cliff, Charlie, and the bullpen.

"No one will get on Lee for blowing a 4 run lead I bet."

You can't seriously believe that Cliff Lee "blowing a lead," in the midst of a season in which his ERA sits at 2.55, is a more discussion-worthy topic than allowing Jeremy Horst to pitch to 3 RH hitters in the heart of the Brewers' order in a tied game in the 9th inning?

Anyway, what should we be getting on Lee for? He didn't pitch up to his usual standards, but he didn't "blow" the lead. The tying run scored on a Freddy Galvis error.

"No one will get on Lee for blowing a 4 run lead I bet."

I'll do the apologies. Lee has to hold a 4-0 lead. In his defense, Milwaukee can hit a little. And, he should have had a chance to keep it 3-1. Galvis' throw was tough but, in any case, you have to get teh ball to Kratz on the fly. He fields balls in teh dirt like teh cute girl on my softball team.

Not sure where 3-1 came from but, a good apology doesn't need facts.

I don't blame lee, bu I knew we were doomed when we didn't add to lead. As wheels and lee says " that's baseball". Bu was a real shame giants and braves lose and we could have inched closer.

That game was not on Lee. It was on

defense - Young Galvis and Young
poor managing - Delmon facing a RHB then being pulled for Nix after the inning, having Lee go back out in the first place, using Horst
offense - sure they put up 4 runs but got 1 hit after the 4th like someone mentioned

i completely understand Horst pitching to the Right Handed middle of the line up... had we already used DeFratus. Adams. Papelbon. Traded for Wilson Valdez and had him pitch the 14th. And Horst is facing Braun in the 15th. But letting him have the entire 9th was criminal. Seriously, I typically understand Manuel's reluctance to use the closer on the road in the 9th in a tie game. Most mgr's do. But in this case it was completely wrong. If you really need Horst to pitch a full inning at somepoint it has to be when you've exhausted everything else.

awful awful awful.

There ain't a reasonable person who could argue the contrary, k'town.

BAP: I understand the befuddlement at Horst pitching to the heart of the Brewers order. But the simple fact is the reason Horst is in the game is because Lee wasn't sharp, was throwing a ton of pitches and had to come out earlier. He was leaking at times in the game and was probably lucky he didn't leave with a deficit rather than a tie. He walked three guys and 2 of them scored. He gave up a hit with men in scoring position to one of the worst players in baseball (Betancourt) that game them their first run.

Had Hamels had a game like that there would be some on here determining him soft. Lee was not very good last night and the offense didn't tack on. But we complain about how they score 3 or less a lot. Last night they didn't and still lost.

Lee should have been pulled after 6. But at least now there is a plausible explanation why Manuel didn't do it (he had a what, four man bullpen?). Either way, I have a hard time blaming Lee for the loss. He did fine on a night where he didn't have his best stuff, and the tying run was scored thanks to DYak kicking the ball around in the corner and Galvis making an errant throw. I say this as one of the few non-members of the Cliff Lee Can Do No Wrong Fan Club.

Having Horst in there is still indefensible and moronic.

When is Big Z's call up deadline?
He appears to be in better working order than Horst, Mike "Thoracic Park" Adams and his tweaky bicep to name a few.

BL's exercises in blame assignment can get positively scholastic.

I would think of it this way: To me, Lee pitched sub-optimally (CGSO) but within the bounds of normal, expected performance. And that performance, all else being equal (average run expectations), probably abetted victory more than it did defeat. That cut_fastball would call Hamels a clubhouse cancer had he pitched similarly is neither here nor there.

Pitching Horst, however, was abnormal with respect to rationality, and the opportunity existed (Papelbon, whomever else) to do otherwise. While reasonable people could disagree, going into the 7th, about the probability of Lee pitching a clean inning, Horst's giving up the run was easily predictable. If we blame people for things that are controllable and avoidable, it makes perfect sense to cast blame (on Manuel) in the case of pitching Horst. Whether the Horst inning is the bulk of the reason why the Phillies lost is a different question (and the answer is no).

TTI: Lee wasn't all that sharp, but there really isn't much more to say on that issue. There isn't any, "Why is he still on the team" angle to discuss like there would be for Durbin (if he were still here) or Horst or Delmon Young or Nix. There isn't a "What the hell is wrong with him this year" angle like there is with Hamels or Revere or Bastardo. There's no, "Why isn't he on the DL" angle, like there is with Howard or Adams. It was just a case of a great pitcher, in the midst of a great year, having a so-so game. Obviously that was a contributing factor to the Phillies' loss but there's not really anything to dissect about it.

When the Phillies lose a close game, it's only natural to discuss what could have been done differently. Lee pitching better is not something that could have been done differently. On the other hand, there were some pretty glaring decisions that could and should have been done differently in the 8th and 9th innings (and, arguably, as early as the 7th when Cholly let Lee hit for himself).

TTI: Actually, I'm going to declare Beerleaguer Bankruptcy on that last post - not because I've changed my opinion, but simply because Klaus said exactly what I was driving at, only he said it a lot better than I did. So rather than saying what I said in my 12:31 post, I'm just going to adopt everything Klaus said as if it were my own statement. Maybe Klaus can write my appellate briefs for me in the future.

    I would think of it this way: To me, Lee pitched sub-optimally (CGSO) but within the bounds of normal, expected performance. And that performance, all else being equal (average run expectations), probably abetted victory more than it did defeat. That cut_fastball would call Hamels a clubhouse cancer had he pitched similarly is neither here nor there....

    Posted by: Klaus | Saturday, June 08, 2013 at 12:29 PM

Did you ever read what I wrote about Cole Hamels, or are you trying to sound intelligent, all the while betraying yourself as a 5th grade-level writer, posting an inaccurate, ad hominem attack on an innocent poster?

All I have ever said about Hamels is that the team "presses" a bit when he pitches, and perhaps there was an injury (the 'injury' thing's pretty much disproven). I have never stated Hamels was a clubhouse anything - he's evaded the press, but Rollins did the same last year.

In retrospect, walking away on that day was probably a smart move on Hamels' part - discretion can indeed be the better part of valor. Hey genius, why don't you explain why Mr. Hamels has but 2 wins this year?

Whatever. Insult me based on what was written. The best on this board nearly always do.

My guess is that most of us on BL aren't big fans of mediocrity in our everyday lives and that this carries over to how we feel about it when someone wearing the uniform of our favorite team is guilty of it. For example, I was a mediocre accountant and left that field to become involved in the limousine industry because it's an arena in which I knew I would excel. I am intolerant of mediocrity in my company and it's hard for me to fathom how MLB teams can put mediocre players on the field in good conscience. Drives me nuts.

Is that you, Ronnie?

TTI (The Truth Injection)when it comes to Cliff Lee doesn't inject much truth into the discussion. It's usually biased towards the negative and almost always contains a line - "Well if it had been Hamels he would have been...."

"why don't you explain why Mr. Hamels has but 2 wins this year?"

Because his head's up his a&!, as you pointed out.

Klaus -- I did write that. I still think Cole was too easily distracted, and the team responded poorly to that.

However, his last game was a gem, and a real boon to the team's chances. Damn, I hope he can string together a dozen more of those starts.

I guess I'm just a bit "stir crazy" after 36 hours of rain in these parts. Peace out.

Just 1 more thing. Short of playing 4 Jimmy Rollins and 4 Freddy Galvis clones, is there any conceivable way to improve this team's defense? It would be nothing short of horrifying to see a championship effort by the starting 5, and huge seasons by Dom Brown, Kratz and yes, RFD "kicked away" by the Yak and Michael Young. Now that's depressing.

AS every Texas fan will tell you: Just out of the reach of a diving Michael Young is a phrase heard often.
So we have the Young twins,no range and slow range.

"It would be nothing short of horrifying to see a championship effort by the starting 5, and huge seasons by Dom Brown, Kratz and yes, RFD "kicked away" by the Yak and Michael Young."

In that case, you're in luck. I don't envision a championship effort by the Starting 5, or any other area of this team. On the other hand, the shoddy defense could easily turn what would otherwise have been an 84-win season into a 79-win season.

Michael Young's knees are just out of the range of a diving Michael Young.

Wondering if like it was said we'll call up Z to use in the bullpen.

"...the Cliff Lee Can Do No Wrong Fan Club."

Iceman, you have the names of the club wrong.

Technically, it's:

"The Merry Cliffmas Sychophant Club"

Does that suggest there's hope for Howard, if the Phillies copy that exercise of hitting off a tee while aiming for hoops representing various parts of the field?

"All I have ever said about Hamels is that the team "presses" a bit when he pitches,..."

cut, under the presumption that this is provable, please provide some evidence.

Thank you in advance.

Lee wasnt too sharp the Brew People had a plan on approaching him and it seem to work. They do have some capable hitters in that line up. D Young kind of tipped toe to that triple. Adams signing is looking bad. I as well thought they should of kept Stutes in. Defensive blunders, questionable in game calling. Offense took a fiesta after they put up a 4 run lead.

Revere benched again. Howard sitting with DYak hitting cleanup ahead of Brown.

Manuel's trolling us at this point.

To clarify, I'm fine with Howard sitting. Even fine with Revere sitting...if it wasn't in the larger context of being sat for three games in a row.

I don't understand what anyone in this organization sees in continuing to put DYak in such a prominent role where he can hurt the team every night. He's the backup clean-up hitter for Christ sake. This is getting out of control.

awh -- There must be a reason Hamels is 2 - 9. That's all I got.

Regardless, this ain't Fangraphs. It's Beer*Leaguer Alternative Viewpoints on the Philadelphia Phillies.

He just earned his latest $100k roster bonus. Rube forced UC to hit him cleanup to justify the price.

GBrett: One can hope. I was thinking more along the lines of this is the kind of crap I can hope to read about Dom Brown over the course of the next year. That's not to say I haven't already gotten some good Dom Brown love-reading, but it's good to remember there's always room for growth.

At the risk of defending Delmon Young, he hasn't really been "hurting the team every night" of late. He has hit in 7 straight games and 11 of the last 12, with 3 homeruns in that 12 game stretch.

I'm not one much for the keyboard managing and whining about how Charles "lost" a game by making the wrong choice among crappy relievers - but I will say that this loss felt more and more like a foregone conclusion the longer he left Horst in there. It just felt like there was no way that Horst was surviving the inning, and at least the team would have had a chance if Paps were brought in.

Bring Paps in games goes to extra. If it wasnt Horst then Savery would of probably blew it.

He only has one multi-hit game in his last 12. On this torrid stretch he's still managed to hit just .268/.302 with 4 XBH. All this while compiling a -0.6 dWAR in just 27 starts in RF (most of which he didn't even play a full nine innings).

He hurts the team every time he takes the field as a starter. He hurts it even more when he's hitting ahead of guys like Mayberry and Brown in the 4-hole. I can't believe anyone would argue this. His three HR the last two weeks don't even come close to evening that out.

And he has a six game hitting streak, not 7. Only one multi-hit game in the 6, but ok, he's been good the last six games offensively and atrocious defensively and on the bases.

In the six games before that he was 4/22 with a .536 OPS. Not sure why the last 12 games are used as a benchmark. Only in the last six days has he even come close to contributing positively to the team. And he sure as hell shouldn't be batting fourth.

"Technically, it's: "The Merry Cliffmas Sychophant Club"

No technically it's the Cliff Lee is one of the best pitchers in all of baseball over the last five years despite what ever personal reason Awl and other posters would have you believe that fact is not true!

He's your favorite player, eh, Iceman?

Iceman is a rabid Anti-Delmite.

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