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Sunday, May 05, 2013

Comments

Doc is a POS for lying to the training staff and FO...stupid and selfish move by him.
Posted by: NEPP | Sunday, May 05, 2013 at 08:51 PM
I expect better from you, NEPP. The entire situation sucks, but calling Doc a "POS" is out of line. He was hurt and tried to pitch through it. I would expect no less from a supreme competitor of his caliber. It's what almost anyone would have done. I've been in his shoes in lesser situations and tried to do the same thing.

Chris, I think you're misunderstanding my annoyance. Pitching through pain and injury is A-OK...lying about it to his teammates, the trainers, the coaches and FO is just selfish. THey can and often do lie to the fans and press...that's expected. Lying to the team like that hurts the club on a variety of levels.

Welcome to WIP

That may be the case, but I stick to the statement that calling him a POS is totally uncalled for. Doc left his heart and soul on the mound from 2010 to present, and deserves some respect for that. He pitched 483 (regular season) innings between 2010 and 11, and provided some of my absolute favorite memories as a Phils fan. He deserves a certain level of respect.

Doc got it wrong. He thought his injury was less serious. He thought he could pitch through it. He didn't do it to make some kind of option vest. He didn't do it for a bonus. I don't get the hate.

Doc didn't "lie" on his own here. Anyone with a brain could see in Spring Training that Doc wasn't right. I predicted at the season's start that we'd see five starts from Doc before he inevitably got DL-ed, but the fact that it took even longer than that speaks to a huge failure on the part of the trainers and coaches. Is the rapport in that clubhouse between players and coaching staff really so bad that none if those guys could level with Halladay? That none of them could get together with him and decide on a decent course of action that didn't involve 7 wasted starts and more wear and tear on whatever it is that has been ailing Doc? That's on Charlie, Dubee, and the trainers as much as it is on Doc himself.

It was also sadly completely predictable based on the ways this team has handled injuries for years now.

I like the clear division between those saying "Doc tried. He entertained. I wish things could have ended better" vs "He didn't give me another championship".

Its not Doc's fault we didn't win another WS. He did everything he possibly could.

I just wish he was more honest with the team if he was hurt. Pitching hurt is one thing...doing it without the team's knowledge is foolhardy at best.

It appears not many here believe in the concept of sins of omission. The Pope Francis certainly has his work cut out for him.

But Sarge told us this was all because of traffic putting Doc off his game day schedule.

The drop off from Lannan to Pettibone is not that hard to overcome. But the drop off from Doc to whoever is huge.
Talking the Doc of our expectations and memories, not the 2013 Doc of reality.

I don't think anyone has any clue what was going on in Doc's arm or head, so it's a little ridiculous to make judgments about what kind of person he is.

It's easy to say "he lied to the team, or misled them when he knew he was pitching hurt."

But do you guys really think its cut and dry that Doc "knew" he was pitching hurt? I imagine starting pitchers have sore shoulders all the time. The line between normal soreness and injury isn't nearly as clear as you might think. It's actually really hard even for someone like me to tell a doctor with any sort of specififty when they ask "what's wrong?" Players probably play through injuries all the time, not because they are withholding the knowledge that they're injured, but because they don't even know they're injured.

"It appears not many here believe in the concept of sins of omission"
The Phillies hitters believe.

As far as this team, they weren't going anywhere with this horrible offense anyway.

It's actually really hard even for someone like me to tell a doctor with any sort of specififty when they ask "what's wrong?"

It's the doctor's job to translate. That's a big part of the interaction with patients.

You can't blame him for failing to accurately describe what hurts. You damn well can blame him for not trying (if true).

Maybe a week or two ago MG posited the Phillies would be .500 (or maybe even a couple of games up) after today. I countered w/ a guess of 2 games under .500 which, in retrospect, seems insanely optimistic. And this was supposed to be the favorable portion of the schedule ...

I hope Doc didn't injure himself further by trying to pitch through the pain.

Mandy Housenick remembers this quote from Amaro when asked about Doc in April:

"I think after last year when he was reluctant to let us know how he was feeling, I think he understands the importance of that," Amaro told a group of us on April 9 when I asked him if he thought Halladay would have trouble admitting to pain. "If he had pain, if he had discomfort, he wouldn’t be pitching."

Dave - You won and I did say they would be .500 or even a game under.

I was wrong because I thought they would at least split in Cleveland and win 3 of 4 at home this weekend.

Phils have now played 10 series this season and won exactly 3 of them (2 vs Mets, 1 vs Fish).

This just isn't a quality team and they don't have the offense and bullpen depth to overcome 2 injuries to their starting rotation for a prolonged stretch.

Line about the sins of omission gave me a laugh.

Amaro lie? Zero chance of that.

I guess if Doc would've "manned up" and took himself out of the rotation than they would've lost 5-2 instead of 14-2 to CLE and FLA. I don't know if the anger towards him is because he lied or because he sucks. Even if he won a championship he still wouldn't get a pass from the hate crowd. If Hamels has a similar decline, I could see the same reaction even if he was the '08 WS MVP. Doc was the same guy when he was dominating, but all of a sudden now he's a POS and selfish. Fanhood is a what have you done for me daily world, past accomplishments mean nothing and Doc must take the heat.

Halladay isn't a 'POS' (uncalled for and out of bounds) but he should have told the medical staff/traindes/coaching staff what was going on it.

It was clear from the comments after the game that Halladay didn't disclose how his shoulder really felt. I also think he was fibbing about his shoulder 'feeling good' until the Pittsburgh start.

Understand pitchers go through there shares of aches and pains but I do think Halladay was holding back from the coaching/medical staff and has been since the start of ST. Also pretty clear this offseason that Halladay and the team (including Amaro) were on pretty separate pages last year about his health at various points in the season.

Sure this is pretty common though in all sports and outside of it too. There was a medical study that just came out earlier this year that found that patients tell at least one serious lie in over 1/3 of visits in the study. Often a serious one (taking medications as prescribed, making dietary/lifestyle changes) that could have critical effects on the diagnosis and treatment regiment prescribed including potentially fatal effects.

It is a large reason why classical economics and attempts to model behavior in that framework fail spectacularly. People live cheat, lie, and steal and do so at a staggering clip especially if it is from someone they don't have a direct relationship with.

When things are going well Doc is praised for his heroic work ethic and a routine that would kill a mere mortal.
When things go to hell in a handbasket that translates to overuse and Doc becomes the aforementioned mere mortal.

Lying to the team and team doctors is selfish...sorry if that offends you so much. It is if its Utley or Doc or any other player.

The same mentality that he used to put himself though those tough workouts that allowed him to pitch CGs and throw all those innings, is probably also the cause of him not telling the medical staff how he is really feeling. He wanted to pitch through it, just as he wanted to finish every game he started when he was going good. Its all relative. He was praised back then, but now that he sucks and things aren't working out, its a different story. Back then he was a workhorse and now he is selfish.

Where's Team Kratz?

So what's your point, nitpicker? As fans we should've been supportive of this farce of a process when it was obvious to all and sundry from spring training that something was not right with Halladay?

Of course nothing excuses outright ugliness, but general anger and upset because Halladay actively hurt the team by concealing an injury and the team GM, manager, pitching coach and medical staff were apparently too stupid to see he was injured when it was obvious? This makes Philadelphians bad fans?

I think not.

FWIW, the training staff, coaches, UC and Rube should also be destroyed for this travesty. Anyone with two working eyes could tell that Doc was hurt. They all put their heads in the sand on it and allowed him to go out and embarrass himself in his starts. That's pretty crappy treatment of a future HOF player.

Heather, if I wanted to say Philadelphian are bad fans then I would've said Philadelphians are bad fans. Calling Doc a POS and selfish for trying to pitch hurt was out of line in my opinion. I wonder how many times he went out and pitched with some kind of discomfort when he was dominating. He wasn't a POS or selfish then.

I like when people take on a new screen name to argue.

That's fun.

***Calling Doc a POS and selfish for trying to pitch hurt was out of line in my opinion.***

Also, I know reading comprehension can be difficult but the issue isn't with that...its with lying to everyone in the Org about trying that. THere is no issue with doing the former...players do it all the time. Worley last year, Cole in 2010, etc etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Nobody is ripping him for that. However, you have to be honest with your trainer. You don't do anyone favors, including yourself, when you hide it like he tried. It was a short-sighted move by a guy who definitely knows better.

Doc is the worst SP in the majors right now, and has been since about this time a year ago. The team on the field is better without him.

He's also physically finished. He put a ton in and the end is tragic. But that's all this is. There's no controversy here to overreact to. I am sure he was "healthy" at the start of the season, but just like last year, his body seems unable to withstand the rigors of a full major league season.

Not revealing an injury is a selfish act, period. That Halladay would withhold health information after last season only serves to aggravate the situation. The Phillies apparently place a lot of trust in their mufti-millionaires -- I'd argue far too much trust -- & these players know it. Taken in context w/ r00b's quote from earlier this season I consider what Roy did to be a breach of that trust. There is a fine line between "competitive" & "selfish", & I believe it was crossed.

NEPP: Your "evidence" that Halladay was injured all along seems to come down to: NEPP thinks he was injured all along. Because Halladay, himself, says that he was fine until 2 starts ago. Maybe he's actually telling the truth. I mean, didn't he just pitch 3 good games in a row?

I get why everyone has been suspecting an injury since spring training. It's inexplicable for a pitcher with pinpoint control to suddenly have no control whatsoever. But just because it's inexplicable doesn't mean it can't happen. Basically, there's still no evidence, other than our own speculation, to indicate that he was really injured before the Pittsburgh game.

sneed and others in the last thread were right. It is bridge under the water at this point and since last May these are his numbers:

27 GS, 10-10, 156 2/3 IP (5.7 IP/GS), 5.92 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 8.2 K/9, 2.5 BB/9, 3.3 K/BB, 1.5 HR/9, 22% LD, 10% swing and miss

What it tells me is that while his peripheral numbers aren't bad but he is giving up his share of hard hit balls and grooving a lot of pitches that end up out of the park.

In fact, it is the allowed HRs that have absolutely killed him the past year. Basically double his career rate (0.77) and you will have a hard time finding a starter who can stick allowing HRs at that pace.

Halladay's numbers are also clearly done across the board this year through 7 GS even compared to last May onwards.

I mean form last year from May until the end of the year.

Check me off in the crowd who thinks Halladay is done. He's 36 in another week and if he has offseason shoulder surgery with Dr. Yocum I would be surprised if he is ready for the start of the '14 season.

Even then, he will be 37 and I can't see any team offering him anything more than a 1-yr deal with a pretty low base that is very incentive-laden.

I think people are well within reason to say velocity decline plus arm slot changes plus no command equal probable injury.

Sure it's possible he didn't have an injury before Pittsburgh. Just not probable.

"Even then, he will be 37 and I can't see any team offering him anything more than a 1-yr deal with a pretty low base that is very incentive-laden."

RAJ, himself, was prepared to offer him 4 years, $90M until this injury revelation. Now he plans to lower the offer to 3 years, $60M with a 4th year option & a $10M buyout.

Carlton comparison is not really apt either. Carlton never really had a dramatic injury that ended his career like I think it is going to be disclosed that Halladay has.

Carlton was also a pretty effective starter through '84 at age 39 and won his last Cy Young at 37 in '82.

If Carlton had followed Halladay's path too, he would have started to flame out at 35. That would have been Carlton's '80 season.

Think how disastrously the Phils run of the late 70s would have end if Carlton really hit the wall in '80 and fell off a cliff in '81.

Completely different chain of events where the Phils don't win the WS in '80, likely don't get to another in '83, and are remembered as losers and massive underachievers.

Dropoff from Halladay in '10-'11 to '12-'13 has fundamentally screwed this team up and with it Amaro's future with it. With a '10-'11 Halladay, even last year the Phils would have had a decent shot to make the playoffs.

The comparison isn't apt in that way. I made it in the sense that Carlton, even at the end, seemed convinced that he could still pitch if he just fixed X, Y, or Z. He just wasn't able to accept he was done.

Up till this evening, Roy seemed to have that mentality as well.

Heather: I mean, I kind of think he was probably injured all along too. The arm slot is a big tip-off. Plus, I can't really come up with any other explanation for how a guy with pinpoint control could suddenly lose it so completely. My only point was that I can't see ripping on the guy for lying about an injury whose very existence is purely a matter of speculation.

MG, you're convinced Amaro's future is at stake at the present time? How long does it take this team to fire GMs even when everyone is convinced they have to go? Amaro's job is safe for at least 3 more years, I'd bet.

This is the worst possible situation. Doc on the DL with everyone wondering if he will come back, when he will come back and whether he will be able to contribute once he does. It freezes everyone in a certain sense. If, for example, he retired (which he won't) then the Philiies can move on into the post Doc era. What's going on now casts a shadow over the team that can only be removed by him returning to some semblance of respectability as a pitcher or by him going away.

Limo: I think it depends on the visit to Dr. Yokum. If Yokum says he has a torn rotator cuff or a torn capsule or whatever, I think everyone can safely turn the page. We're only in limbo if Yokum says there is no structural damage.

Doc or no Doc, they were going nowhere with this offense this year. Two runs in two games against the Marlins. Pathetic. No two ways around it, Ruben has successfully put together a very mediocre team.

Heather - Amaro is a lame-duck after this year and he knows it even though he is signed through '15. This team had to rebound enough to make the playoffs this year to stop the decreasing trend in ticket sales/TV ratings.

Amaro is safe this year & this offseason unless this team completely goes into a nosedive and loses close to 100 games. Only way that happens is if they have a ton of injuries and go into fire-sale mode moving a couple of key pieces including Utley, etc. Even then, I don't see him getting fired.

He could get canned after '14 though if the prospects he traded for last year at the deadline & this year at the deadline aren't looking so promising and the '14 team is a uncompetitive group with a .sub 500 record (say 70-75 wins).

Bottom line is I don't see Amaro going anywhere anytime soon. Not how this onwership group has operated, he is signed through '15, and just a year plus removed from 100+ wins. It is going to take at least 3 consecutive seasons of crappy performances before they likely consider the axe.

I wonder what kind of odds the casino is giving on a Madison Bumgarner no-hitter tomorrow. I could easily see it happening.

Dragon, well, how could RAJ have predicted this offense would be bad? I mean, we just have a bunch of key players on the wrong side of 30 who have been in decline the last few years. Nobody saw this coming.

Here's the plausible explanation you seem to be searching for: he was healthy at the start and now he isn't. He's breaking down. If he can go an offseason in between starts, maybe he'll pitch okay next time out. But this is a man who led the league in innings over a decade and has nothing left. There's no reason to blame either side for holding out hope that last year was an aberration. Neither side had much to lose. They're both playing the same hand.

So with Lannan and Doc down. Pettibone is already up. Who gets the nod? Or will Rube trade what prospects he has for some marginal 5th starter type?

I had long since bailed on the game, so I missed the box score and see that Valdes, Durbin and Horst combined to lock it down for the rest of the game and only gave up 5 runs.

As long as these guys are on the roster, and a move is not made to replace two of the three, I'll be convinced that the front office just doesn't care about the bullpen and figures it has bigger problems to deal with (many of their own making). There is no other plausible excuse why Durbin and Valdes are still on the team when there are younger, capable replacements worth getting a long look at.

Horst I can understand wanting to give a shot, because the argument can be made he's been the unluckiest pitcher in the bullpen, and you can't well just up and release 3/7 of your bullpen when you don't even have one sure fire replacement at AAA that's MLB ready. But no argument can be made for the other two. The front office loses credibility with each passing day they remain on the roster.

Cloyd will be called up. I'm surprised they didn't call him up two weeks ago. There's no way they can avoid it now. I'd rather see Morgan or Martin, but I understand the decision.

We could really be at a point where at the end of this road trip, it is 'season = over' depending on the news from Doc's exam and the probable yearly ravaging this team takes every time they go to SF/ARI. At this point, it would almost be a relief. Obviously I don't want to see them lose, but if they're going to completely tank, just get it out of the way early so I can get excited for the July fire sale.

I really hope the next few weeks doesn't devolve into a huge argument about what Doc meant to the team. There's clearly a small sect of fans that think he's a POS for 'hiding an injury' and wasn't worth acquiring because they didn't win it all when he was here. Ok. Agree to disagree and move on.

Something I think we can all agree on: it's now plainly obvious why the team used to refuse to give out 4+ year contracts to pitchers. They can look like a HOF one year and become Joe Blanton the next, when their arm hits its expiration date. And there's no telling when that day will come.

I, for one, don't want to see that day come with Cliff Lee. It was painful enough with Roy. There's no place for him and his contract on this team once they're completely out of it in July. Hopefully they can make this trade better than the last one.

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