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Monday, May 27, 2013


Is there any player worthy of more blame for this season/team's current stance than Ryan Howard?

If Howard knee is shot get the surgery and be done already. This team needs to take a look in the mirror and realize they aren't contenders. they are hindering growth, and evaluating talent in AAA. Cody giving u more them young, Cesar could hold his own. Time to pull plug and start fresh.

this Phillies line-up
will turn Aceves into
Denton True "Cy" Young



Seeing the changes that some people want requires something that is highly unlikely. By making them, our esteemed GM would be admitting failure. Ruin Tomorrow, Jr. does not like to admit failure.

Even the Phils at +160 does nothing for me tonight.

Just can't bet on Cloyd against a team that has hit RHP pitching well all year especially at Fenway (with the DH).

I'd take the under 5 IP for Cloyd today. This is probably going to be more of a shootout than we're used to seeing.

The Sox score at least 5 in the first three innings. Vic is spotted on camera slapping hands and asses when runs pour in.

About Aceves, sometimes you just have to tip your cap . . .

Oh and, about [insert pitcher's name here], sometimes you just have to tip your cap.

Our only hope is that the attendance keeps dipping and rube gets the point.

"Opponents are hitting .325/.409/.613 off him this year, meaning he's essentially turned every hitter into Ryan Braun."

Yeah, I'll believe this when I see it with Phillies hitters.

Seidman: "A key in this series will be keeping Jacoby Ellsbury off base as much as possible. When he reaches base twice in a game, Boston is 14-7 and averages 5.5 runs. When he doesn't, the Red Sox score 3.2 runs per game. Major difference."

What a misleading stat. Its the same "as jroll goes so do the phils".

I randomly selected another Bosox player, Mike Napoli, and found that they are 12-4 when he reaches base twice.

I bet every other player falls in the same category.

I don't see how the Sox can beat KK without Kevin Milar!

BAP was wondering last thread about why he hadn't seen Jiwan James name in a boxscore.

One of our favorite of the dozens of tools-first outfielders in the Phils system, Jiwan suffered a partial tear in his ACL late last season. He tried to rehab it back to health during the offseason. That didn't work, so he had surgery in March.

He should be ready to join Reading by the end of June. One of the things worth watching with Jiwan is the breathtaking number of strikeouts he has for a guy with little power. Maybe one of our more saber savvy guys can come up with a stat that gives a ratio between HRs and Ks so we can see who has the most Ks per HR among toolsy outfielders in the Phillies system. Hewitt is no slouch.

Scott: Very true. The other part is that if the Phils did make the changes some posters want, the team would lose 90-100 games for the next 3 years running and the posters would lambaste the very moves they begged for.

I would be shocked if Hewitt didnt lead our system in that category...and the entire Minors for that matter.

Dont worry though, he's got goals and he's working on them.

***The other part is that if the Phils did make the changes some posters want, the team would lose 90-100 games for the next 3 years running and the posters would lambaste the very moves they begged for.***

Counterpoint: They're likely going to lose 85-90 anyway.

edit Napoli post: i forgot about walks.

The Redsox are 14-6. Same point stands - the "ellbsury is the key" stat is bogus.

Going to be close to 90 losses this year 81-81 maybe 75 wins

clout: What would you do then, if not gut and rebuild as soon as possible?

Good thing they don't have to switch to the AL.

Clout - The problem is that the Phils can't make the moves that many here want. Howard is essentially untradeable. So, maybe they should just let him get his darn knee fixed and let him heal, then try to convince him that 2-0 and 3-0 counts don't mean "swing at anything." So, that's doable.

Trading Utley, Lee, Hamels, M Young, Rollins and Ruiz doesn't make much sense because they're not likely to bring much in return except salary relief in the case of Hamels, Rollins and Lee, and Amaro type talent in the case of the rest, except for M Young who might get you a bag of baseline chalk and a first aid kit. There are also no stars bubbling up from the minor league system to replace them.

The Amaro type talent we can count on is likely more of the Tommy Joseph/Ethan Martin type. And since other organizations didn't exactly see them as untouchable, it's unlikely that a subpar instructional org like the Phillies is going to improve them.

It's possible that a team with Cody Asche at third, Galvis at short, Cesar Hernandez at second and Ruf (when healthy) at first with possibly Mayberry cheaply in right, Revere in center and some stray or other in left with a pitching staff of Biddle, Morgan, Pettibone, Cloyd and (fill in the blank) will win about 65 games per year. But the upside is that after losing for a couple of seasons, you'd have drafted in the single digits for a couple of years and set up the team for Asche in left andn Franco at third with whatever talent you've drafted ready on the horizon. And in maybe three or four years you'll have Quinn either at short or more likely centerfield.

I well remember watching the Phillies of the early 70's and being very happy when they turned into the Phillies of the mid to late 70s and early 80s. And I think the fanbase is capable of great patience, even in Philly. But that would require the FO, including His Smugness, be honest with the fans. And when the team is ready to contend, they'll need to step up and spend on a few key free agents when necessary.

I don't see any of that happening. What I expect is that Rube will continue to patch this leaky gutter of a team until there is nothing left but patches that can never hold because there's no gutter left.

I'd like to separate myself from people who think that rebuilding means that we have to call up every "prospect" we have and give them 600 PA.

I simply want the team to make sure they get any possible value from players who are not under team control for much longer and use it free assets up for next year(s), either players, prospects, or payroll flexibility.

So when I say they should trade Rollins, its not because I think Galvis is a superstar, its because I think Galvis can hold his own at SS while we sign Sin Soo Choo to fill RF, and so on.

Plenty of the assets ak listed can fetch a nice return- specifically Lee, Rollins, Papelbon, Kendrick (and even Hamels, but I personally would not put him on the block). Howard and Ruiz would likely get you nothing. Utley could fetch you maybe a high-upside guy or two.

The Mets got Zach Wheeler for a half season of Carlos Beltran. The Nats got Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps. It can very easily be done. With the shortage of SS and the obsession with closers, Rollins and Papelbon specifically could fetch nice returns. And Lee, obviously, is an ace that would be attractive to numerous teams.

The issue is whether the FO will care about getting players or salary relief in return for these assets. Again, I would lean towards them probably aiming for players, with a TV deal on the horizon that will take care of the bills for the foreseeable future. But I will not pretend to know the intentions of these buffoons any longer. They could give Lee and his salary away for a song and I wouldn't be surprised.

Ice - If the FO and owners are okay with getting players instead of salary relief, you are correct. They can likely do very well. That is, if you trust Rube Jr. to be the one orchestrating such an overhaul. But from the way the team took great pains to stay under the luxury tax cap this year, I worry that the Bill Giles small thinking may be making a semi-return and they'll be overly concerned with salary relief. I say semi because it's pretty clear they are in the upper echelons of income and team value almost no matter what they do to screw up the team. I don't think they can ever go completely back to the Giles days.

Even this group of dysfunctional geriatrics mixed with just below replacement level youngsters is drawing well compared to the league as a whole. So, the owners are probably secure in the knowledge that they can field relative garbage and still have their investment perform admirably.

Maybe we'll get lucky and they will suffer a couple of low ball offers for the upcoming TV contract. Then they'll really have to make a decision about fielding a winning team even if it involves the luxury tax.

obviously it all depends on what you'd get...but assuming you could get "equal value" for every player, i'd deal:

utley, rollins, paps, ruiz, myoung

I would keep Hamels, Lee, KK, and obviously the rest are untradable or young enough to keep(DOM/Revere).

The problem is that Lee may be your most tradeable commodity, followed by Papelbon. Both seem to be at their peak and that may mitigate the contractual problems. They are both owed a lot of money.

I think that with some luck, a smart general manager could trade a few key pieces and mend this team enough to be competitive over the next few years. But that smart GM isn't currently with the team. And Amaro could accomplish this feat, but that would change "a little luck" to a "whopping load of luck."

He made a great first deal for Lee and a great deal for Halladay, but I only give him credit for the Lee deal because Halladay pretty much forced Toronto's hand in favor of Philly.

Matt Gelb ‏@magelb 1m

“It hurts,” Ryan Howard said of his left knee.

Jim Salisbury ‏@JSalisburyCSN 15s

Howard says he has good days and bad days w knee. Says surgery has not been discussed. That is worst case last resort he said.

So we get the sh!tty version of Howard that is useless and serves as a net negative to the team.

That makes sense.

Chris Branch ‏@ChrisBranchTNJ 26m

#Phillies tonight: Revere CF, M. Young 3B, Rollins SS, Howard 1B, Delmon DH, Brown LF, Mayberry RF, Galvis 2B, Kratz C, Cloyd P

Sometimes you make bad decisions that end up working out. Sometimes you make good decisions that end up not working out.

Sometimes you make a bad decision that ends up far worse than anyone could have reasonably anticipated.

The Ryan Howard contract decisions appears to fall into this last category.

Only 3 of our starters have an OBP at or above .300. Rollins, one of the 3 is right at .300.

That is so pathetic.

Sorry, make that 4 since Mayberry is in the game...4 of the 9 hitters now.

So let Howard rest this would of been the perfect series to do so Crap put Young on First and Frandsden on 3rd. This team bewilders me.

2013 Jimmy Rollins


2013 Philadelphia Phillies


Depressing that those lines are pretty much equivalent.

midget - How is Frandsen? He left after getting plunked yesterday.

lorecore's 3:37 list? Mine, too.

I'd keep the starting pitching, Brown and Galvis, and look to unload everything else for good returns.

Major caveat: before you begin to make ANY trades, FIRE AMARO. And get someone who actually understands baseball.

Despite Rollins' declining numbers, I bet you could get a couple decent prospects for him from, say, the Dodgers.

A decision that was made way in advance Fat. That should of told us what kind of GM we where dealing with at that point. A decision that has multiple cascading consequences as the Phillies have to work in and around that contract for the next few years. Which will and already has affected the decisions or non-decisions for this club.

If someone can provide a good reason to keep Lee instead of dangling him to contenders at the deadline and getting a stud prospect or two for him, I'll be all for it. He's one of my favorite players on the team. I just don't see the point.

I'd have Kendrick at the negotiating table right now trying to work out a 3/4 year extension. If his demands are unrealistic, I'd put him on the block too.

There are a lot of teams in need of a SS. Assuming he doesn't get hurt, if you eat half of Rollins' salary you could get a lot of teams to bite.

The key is to do the opposite of what Amaro did last year: wait until the last week to put them on the market. It's pretty clear with the injuries to HHU where this season is going. Give it a few weeks and if the team is still buried (which is probable), start making calls in mid-June. I'd make Papelbon available right now, honestly. People will panic and deal for a closer early in the season if they know he is on the market.

Now that most of BL has declared the team dead and buried, watch them proceed to take the next two from Boston.

The other reason to trade Papelbon now: he is of absolutely no use to the team. They don't need someone to secure the 75-80 wins they'll likely finish with. He serves no purpose. Cash him in now and whatever you get for him is free money. And I'll bet you could get a nice prospect or two for him with how overvalued closers are.


Iceman: "If someone can provide a good reason to keep Lee instead of dangling him to contenders at the deadline... I'll be all for it."

I'll give you 3 reasons: Tyson Gillies, Phillipe Aumont and J.C. Ramirez.

So we get the crap version of Howard who's hurt and won't have the surgery until his knee literally explodes. Got it.

Dragon: Good point. Not to mention, NEPP is on record as saying the team will lose 85-90 games even if they don't make a move.

ak- I agree with most of your first post except for the fact that they can do well with revenue even by fielding a sh*tty product.

It's already started to fall off, and the only reason attendance hasn't fallen off a cliff completely is because many of the casual fans are still fooled into thinking the team is very good because of the marketable names on the team. Once they go, and success is just a fleeting memory, they will stop showing up completely.

I really think they could go back to the 90s as far as fan interest goes if Amaro continues bringing in the Delmon & Michael Youngs of the world, expecting to be competitive. And the revenue would dry up in a hurry.

Sorry, NEPP, didn't see your comment before I posted basically the same thing.

clout- so because of one God awful trade, they should just give up on trading altogether?

If you're inferring that you'd rather not have Amaro behind the wheel of a potential blockbuster deal, I agree, but he's who they are stuck with. I just don't see the point of keeping Lee around on a 75-80 win team when you could, theoretically, get a massive return for three years of him from a contender that feels they're a pitcher away from getting to the top.

As long as Amro eschews things like OBP in favor of "production" this lineup is going to suck...that's how you end up with the team hitting 16 straight solo HRs and having a team struggle to consistently score runs.

Can we trade Amaro?

Iceman: A trade is always a gamble. Even the infallible (according to BL) Pat Gillick once made a terrible trade.

I don't recall seeing a study on this, but my experience as an observer of this game for 40 years or so is that the team that gets prospects for an established star usually ends up with the worst of the deal. We remember the exceptions, but tend to forget the crappy prospects that never panned out and wound up yielding a quality player for a contending team (see Cliff Lee to Phillies for Donald, Marson et al).

***Dragon: Good point. Not to mention, NEPP is on record as saying the team will lose 85-90 games even if they don't make a move.

Posted by: clout | Monday, May 27, 2013 at 04:56 PM***

FWIW, I was referring to next year.

I wouldn't be shocked if they do it this year too though...they're prime for another death spiral like they did last June. I'm simply not predicting it.

Why are some calling this a 2 game series? It's a 4 game series. Who cares if the venue changes. Playoff series are 2-2-1-1-1. Do people look at those as 5 different series?

Amaro, Hamels and Howard to the Cardinals for Mozeliak.

Are all of Mozeliak's scouts included in that deal?

Are the Phillies gonna look as ugly as the other MLB teams today? I'm watching the Giants A's and they both look gross.

Jim Salisbury ‏@JSalisburyCSN

Sad guy's 67 year old mother with diabetes has good days and bad days w knee. Says surgery has not been discussed. That is worst case last resort she said. This is okay since she doesn't have a 25 mil a year contract to play professional baseball.

Man that Ortiz dude is scary good. Only one counter in the DH spot... Yours truly! Versatility™

Personally, I think Jeff Luhnow was really the person responsible for the Cardinals farm system. So how about Amaro, Wade, and Howard for Luhnow?

I know D. Young is atrocious in the outfield, but considering Howard's knee problems shouldn't he be DH'ing?

Chris Branch ‏@ChrisBranchTNJ 56m

Actual quote from Papelbon: "I don't think about a lot of things."

Jeff Luhnow is a nerd living in his mom's basement. How many times have Allen Craig, Jon Jay, or David Freese produced™ 100 RBI? Not as many times as Delmon Young!

Interview with Howard:

Q: How do you gauge the knee on a day-to-day basis?

Howard: I don’t know. It hurts, I let them know. If it’s too much for me to go out there, then I’ll let them know. if its bothering me throughout the course of the game, I’ll go to (Charlie Manuel) and say, ‘It’s kind of bothering me right now. If I get on base or something, you might want to get a pinch runner.' I usually do a pretty good job of letting them know. If it gets to be too much, I let them know.

Q: Is it beneficial to get a day off now and then, like yesterday? Ease the pain?

Howard: I don’t know. To me you want to be out there, you want to play, obviously. You play hurt, you play injured to the best of your ability. Guys go out and play hurt, play injured. That’s the part of your competitive nature. But it’s about being smart about it, too. If it’s something that continually bothers me to where it’s, ‘I can’t go right now.” I’ll let them know.

Q: Are you fearful this is going to go on all year?

Howard: Right now I’m just looking at it day to day. Sometimes it’s a little more, sometimes it’s a little less. Obviously that’s going to be something. Right now I’m looking at it day to day, and trying to run with the good days.

Q: Is it holding you back on how you perform?

Howard: I don’t know. I haven’t been one to make excuses. When I was going out there when my ankle was bad, I still feel like I could go out there and contribute to the best of my ability. In 2011, before the rupture. I don’t know, I don’t try to make excuses.

Q: Would wearing a brace help?

Howard: I don’t think so. I think it would feel weird.

Q: Did the cortisone shot wear off it you were hurting yesterday?

Howard: I don’t know. I guess. I don’t know how long it usually lasts. I just know if it hurts or bothers me a little bit, it hurts and it bothers me.

Q: How are you feeling today?

Howard: It’s a little bit better, but it’s still sore.

Q: Will you keep playing through it?

Howard: You get to the point where you have to be smart and make the right decisions. If it’s doing that, taking that time and getting it cleaned up or whatever or however long it is to be able to come back and have it not be a factor, than that’s what you do.

Q: You said you don’t make excuses, but wouldn’t it have to affect offensively being the back leg?

Howard: Obviously it plays a factor with it being my push-off leg, you try to get that extra torque. But if I’m out there I’m trying to do what I have to do. I’m not making excuses.

Q: Would being slotted as a DH help?

Howard: I’m sure you could, but I leave that up to Chuck. If he wants me to go out there, I’ll go out there. I’ll keep an eye on it. It’ll let me know. Trust me. It’ll let me know.

Q: Something that's going to require surgery?

Howard: That’s obviously the worst case scenario. ... I’d guess kind of if all else fails. You just try to continue to monitor it and try to stay in front of it and see what the next step is.

Q: Have you thought about how you’re going to get through this season?

Howard: No, not yet. No, not really. It’s been pretty recent as of right now. If it gets progressively worse -- I mean, some days are better than others. You just try to see where we are.

"my experience as an observer of this game for 40 years or so is that the team that gets prospects for an established star usually ends up with the worst of the deal."

I've been observing for about 40 years too and my experience is identical. On the other hand, it's a chance the Phillies have to take because they're on a one-way path to irrelevancy if they just stay the course with the current aging group. And spending money in free agency is not a remedy. All it does is get you into a lot of bad contracts with older players.

Cespedes with a big hit against the Giants. 2 run double to right-center. 50 years for me, but I'm getting forgetful.

clout- yeah, you're right, it's basically a scratch-off lottery ticket. Very low odds that the return will equal what they're giving away.

But they don't have much of a choice at this point. Keeping Lee and getting nothing would be useless and a waste of resources. The choices are either go for the scratch-off lottery tickets and hope one or two of them hit, or do nothing and remain poor for the foreseeable future.

I actually am in favor of keeping Lee. I think potential buyers will be few because of his salary. I feel like contending teams love going after second-tier guys because it makes everyone happy: you "make a splash" that the casual fan notices but don't mortgage the future. I wouldn't be surprised if teams looking for starting pitching are more inclined to grab one of those second-tier guys (Peavy, Garza, and Josh Johnson are three that come to mind) for a couple of fringe top-100 prospects than to trade a stud prospect for Cliff Lee. Really, this is what we did with Lee the first time, until we un-did it.

I also think a lot of (good) things can happen in three years, and I don't think this team is as bad as everyone thinks it is. It's probably a true-talent 75-80 win team, which while disappointing, isn't that far from being good enough to contend in a lucky year. Keeping Lee and Hamels prevents the team from ever really getting to Marlins- or Astros-level bad, and when you aren't Marlins- or Astros-level bad, you have a chance every year (e.g., 2012 Orioles and 2012 A's). People seem to underrate the probability of a mediocre team putting together a playoff run, and keeping Lee keeps this team a lot closer to mediocre than trading Lee does. I also think being Phillies-bad rather than Marlins-bad or Astros-bad is worth something in entertainment value.

That said, if you actually can get a blue-chip prospect for him, I might be more willing to reconsider. I just don't see a team like Pittsburgh dealing Cole or Taillon, or a team like Baltimore dealing Bundy or Gausman for Lee when they could stick 3 B-prospects together and get Matt Garza instead.

Who's this guy on here that keeps saying trade Cliff Lee. Are you crazy? Cliff Lee is one of the most popular athletes in Philadelphia in years. He causes Phillies fans to still stand by their team. He's one of the very top pitchers in all of baseball. There's no return we would probably get that would equal his value and we still have him for a few more years. Cliff Lee is totally a proud Phillie!!!!!

I love watching Cliff Lee pitch, but I don't think anyone would be more crushed by a Cliff Lee trade than occasional poster Phillies Dude / Phillies Guy.

You dont trade Lee because you wouldn't get anything close to his value in return. You suck it up and hope he continues to perform at a high level.

You keep Hamels and try to extend KK if possible. That keeps the rotation somewhat stable and you hope for guys like Pettibone and Biddle to develop into solid rotation options as well.

That allows you to focus on the offense and bullpen with the money saved from all the other moves you could make.

Well, I'm convinced. Cliff Lee is a proud Phillie. That's reason enough to keep him.

DH- I'm probably misrepresenting my position a bit by making it seem like they should unload him for whatever we can get. I don't think they should. He should be put on the market, though, and if possible get a bidding war going for his services. If teams decide not to pony up what it takes to get him, hang on to him.

I don't feel that should be the case with Utley, Rollins and Papelbon. They should be dealt to the highest bidder on or before July 31st.

So Young still batting 5t huh. This line up looks like a double play at the top, a pop up, a K and then something not useful.

I agree on Utley, Rollins and Pap. I love Utley more than any other Phillie and I dont think extending him is the best idea either way. You approach him and see if/where he wants to go before the deadline and try to make a good trade. Same with Rollins (who has 10/5 rights obviously). Pap, you trade before he turns into a pumpkin to whoever is willing to massively overpay for a "Closer".

You always hope for a Greinke/Segura or Blake/Santana type deal and if it happens, its a huge boon.

Even a Beltran/Wheeler deal would be nice.

I'm not a fan of the ugly uniforms tonight.
I'm also generally uncomfortable of MLB embracing all things military over the last decade.

Out of all the guys who have any trade value, Lee would be the one I'm most reluctant to trade, since: (a) I think he could easily have 2-3 really good years left in him; and (b) I share DH Phils' view that the universe of teams that could take on his salary is so small as to limit the value you'd get back for him. But I definitely wouldn't rule anything out. Hanging onto guys because they're popular is exactly the kind of thinking that has led to the Phillies being the losingest team in professional sports history.

Hollow pro-military gestures always annoy me.

And I'm a veteran myself. I equate this crap with the idiots that stuck a yellow ribbon on their mini-van to show "support" back during the height of both wars.

I'd also be okay with them nixing the whole "Good Bless America" during the 7th inning stretch thing too.

Nice swing by Jimmy.

I agree with both Iceman 7:08 and NEPP 7:11. Utley is my favorite athlete ever but I'm really concerned that they won't have the sense that the Cardinals had with Pujols, and they'll lock him up to some multi-year extension that handcuffs this team for a few years. I do not think it's realistic to expect Utley to start 100 games a year anymore. Same with Chooch - I love him but there is no sensible reason to extend him at his age.

I agree with NEPP, (Lee/Hames/Kendrick) and go from there. As bad a as Revere has been, thank god we didn't sign BJ Upton, look at his line 148/236/252/487 at $13 million per year

Howard would be better off just leaning into an inside pitch here.

Ive played little league fields with a longer corner

God does Howard look injured.

You know you are bad on D when you are the DH in a field with a short right field in favor of a poor defensive 1B with a bad knee that has no range.

What a disgusting organization. Just keep looping that AB by Howard, who cannot bend his back knee. Sickening.

Fenway is actually a pretty tough park to hit HRs in to RF...despite Pesky's Pole being 302, that fence quickly arcs out to 380 ft. Pretty tough to get cheap HRs for a LH pull hitter. You'd think Howard as a guy that goes the opposite way would love hitting there as he could play wall ball all day long off the Monster.

You know, assuming he could make contact. But then, a team that knowingly plays an injured guy gets what it deserves production wise.

I blame Amaro, UC and the medical staff for putting Howard out there. He's clearly being open with them about the injury and they're still running him out there.

Just stupid and short-sighted. Hopefully he doesn't blow out his knee RG3 style.

More cortisone!

The past few years this front office & medical staff has looked like interns when it comes to dealing with injuries.

***More cortisone!***

It worked out really well with his Achilles.

If Lee, Papelbon, and Rollins are not part of a sell off when that day comes then Amaro is not doing his job.

Why sell off Lee? WIth his contract, at best you'll get some minimal salary relief and nothing back prospect wise.

How could any reasonable person read Howard's comments as anything other than "Please put me on the DL I'm trying not to make excuses but I really can't hit with this knee and I feel guilty about my contract so I'm trying to fight through it but it really isn't working"? Add basic people-reading as another weakness of the Phillies' medical team.

This RedSox color guy (Jerry Remy, maybe?) sounds exactly like Cliff Clavin on Cheers.

@bap - maybe for the giles-monty era they were more concerned with keeping popular players around. But the history of the franchise was more about trading popular players for much cheaper ones... and that contributed MORE to the Phillies being the "losingest franchise" than anything

Kratz showing what a great defensive catcher he is with balls in the dirt.

This RedSox color guy (Jerry Remy, maybe?) sounds exactly like Cliff Clavin on Cheers.

Posted by: bay_area_phan | Monday, May 27, 2013 at 07:25 PM

Yeah, its Remy.

I'm waiting for the Jeopardy categories...Stamps From Around the World, Mothers and Sons, Beer Bar Trivia, Celibacy...

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