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Wednesday, April 24, 2013

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So I guess the debate we had a few weeks ago about Halladay's like of Kratz as his catcher is settled.

Pretty clear that Halladay wants Quintero and Halladay gets what he wants from Cholly.

I don't know if it's because they don't "like" each other, but yes, it seems fairly settled that from now on Quintero, and not Kratz, catches Doc.

Doc is not a fan of Kratz's

So now we've got irrefutable proof that Phlipper is RAJ. Surely, there can't be 2 people on the face of the earth who believe that Werth & Burrell stunk because they drew too many walks & didn't knock in enough runs.

This is Cholly's most sensible lineup all season. I guess futility finally prompts some overdue minor tweeks.

Kind of like the kids who leaves his hand on the stove burner until he smells something cooking.

Philipper adamantly sticks up for Cholly and his decisions including his bullpen usage. He's not RAJ for that simple fact.

Pirates at +120 but the Phils have had some sucess against Rodriquez including M. Young and Halladay has mowed down the Pirates since coming over.

Rodriquez is a LHP so I will bet a moderate amount on the Pirates since the +120 is too attractive to pass up. Not nearly as enamored with Rodriquez though as some were in the previous thread.

"Philipper adamantly sticks up for Cholly and his decisions including his bullpen usage. He's not RAJ for that simple fact."

Yes, but isn't that exactly what you expect him to do to throw you off his trail? Smuckin Fart, I tell you.

Now, watch us get shut out and Manuel will never split up Howard & Utley again.

I didn't read much of the last thread, but BAP's comment prompted me to go back and look at Phlipper's comments. His argument that the version of Burrell and Werth that the Phillies had would be "marginal" upgrades over our current corner OF situations is one of the most laughably pathetic arguments he's ever tried to make.

And he's constructed some whoppers in his day.

Jack: I'm actually trying to have a discussion on here with intelligent people. Do you want to be a part of it or do you want to continue being a smarmy assho!e?
There were people in the thread talking about the Achillies injury sapping Howard's power. I posted what I did in response to that. I didn't "decide" that was the discussion. Concurrently there was a discussion going on about Howard overall. You responded to my comment lumping me in with that discussion. I didn't respond because it had nothing to do with what I was saying and I said- last night, LAST NIGHT, he looked like a guy pressing and that he seems that way this year. You again decided I was in the other discussion. I even said I didn't agree or disagree with you. And my what gives statement that you grandstanded against was part of my point of contention against the Achillies sapping power argument. Again- actually read my stuff instead of disagreeing reflexively.
You can't just decide my part in argument A puts me in argument B, and then try to chastise me for running from your point. If you want to troll find someone else and let me speak with the intelligent adults on here.

On the lineup- good splitting Utley and Howard.

Tonight really ought to be an easy win for the Phillies. Halladay has pitched well against Pittsburgh, & the Pirates have sucked at CBP. Losing this game would be an abject humiliation.

BAP:

Giles v California
Florida v Jardines
Jones v US
Bullcoming v. New Mexico

Reading Scalia opinions was one of the few bearable exercises for 3 years (this is not a political statement, but an aesthetic one)

I guess, on looking it up, RBG wrote Bullcoming. Whatever.

Sophist: I agree that the SP in particular has been good enough (post-game 10, especially) to win more games than they've lost.

However, of the 12 games they've lost, they've given up 4 or more runs in nine of them. If you want to limit it to games they've given up more than 4, then it drops to 7.

Do they have to score more runs? Absolutely. But it's hardly been exclusively the offense's fault that their record is where it is. Heck, in 25% of those losses they scored at least 4 (they scored 8 and 5 in two of them).

There will be days when the offense fails, and days when the pitching fails. Hopefully they don't come on the same day, and that even when failing, they do enough.

Hard to confuse Scalia with RBG!

Buster: The offense is going to fail far more often than the pitching.

Sophist - You a lawyer by trade? I heard Scalia speak once in person years ago in Boston. One of few justices that does that & a man who clearly loves to hear himself speak. I guess if you like what he is saying you can tolerate it but he comes off as a hyperopinated Italian a-hole who is never wrong. Maybe just not 100% right all of the time.

gtown: "Tonight really ought to be an easy win for the Phillies. Halladay has pitched well against Pittsburgh, & the Pirates have sucked at CBP. Losing this game would be an abject humiliation."


We had Hamels vs Jeff Locke. If that didn't qualifiy as "ought to be" a win, there is literally no game on this entire schedule that will ever oughttabe again.

Really glad that this lineup has taken form. One thing about the Young GIDPs is that at least Utley has a chance to help in that regard, whether it's by swiping a bag or helping to break up a GIDP by being aggressive and taking out the guy getting the out at 2B.

I don't think its that @Sophist is "joining the doom and gloomers" its that... we are really at a point where "doom and gloom" actually exists...

And not during 2006-2011 where it was doom and gloom every day here all the while we were watching virtually unprecedented success.

This year's team just is not very good.

MG: a supreme court judge with strong opinions. . . weird.

buster: "There will be days when the offense fails, and days when the pitching fails. Hopefully they don't come on the same day."

Actually if you think that there will always be days the fail and succeed due to probability/law of averages, then you actually want both to come on the same day.

Lose every third game 10-0, then win every game in between 4-2. Kind of like the Orioles in 2012.

This is one of those times, when you look at the lineup and say... "Wait did Charlie get fired? Is he dead? Is he away on personal business?"

I had a similar thought on Sunday night when Kendrick was struggling in the 6th and there was no one up in the bullpen... "Is Charlie dead? Kendrick is getting limit, he's nearing 100 pitches... What's going on?? He's going to let this happen??? "

Lorecore: Depends on how badly you think one of their failings will be.

If you give up 6 runs, you should probably assume you're going to lose, no matter how good your offense... Unless it's one of those days when your O is just "on," and yous core 13.

jbird - Strong opinions, certainly. Openly expressing themselves and involving themselves more directly in the political process? That's a rarity historically.

Justin De Fratus, two more scoreless innings today.How long until someone notices?
Ruf .227

I'm somewhat curious if Ruben has taken a look at Leesman. He rejected designation so he's a FA now, and he had some pretty nice numbers starting in AAA last year, even if he is recovering from a torn ACL.

I don't think anybody should be signing him yet, since he made it obvious he won't let himself be sent to the minors, but I wouldn't mind giving him the option of taking over for Valdes as our lefty long-man...

I like that lineup, relatively speaking. Rodriguez has only made two starts, outside of one he left due to a tight leg muscle so, not alot to judge from. However, in those two starts he pitched better than I've ever seen him pitch. He's had great command of his curve and he's using it to set hitters up with high fastballs that they can't lay off. I tend to think he's just ahead of the normal curve due to the work he got in the WBC and that hte old Wandy (who's not terrible) will be here by May. With the way this lineup is 'producing', it would be a good night, though, for him to get tightness in his calf, again.

John Jay was fairly political.

"Openly expressing themselves and involving themselves more directly in the political process?" Agreed. In the 'good ole days' they did it in private.

MG - Sorta. ... Scalia's personality/lack of professionalism has gotten worse with age. I imagine he was a really great professor back when he was one.

Little Ollie - True but that's kinda the point. Scalia was in the majority on that one, joined RBG.

Buster - I'm pretty sure more often than not they'll get what they need from the SP. The SP stats MG started with include the bad starts from Hamels and Doc, and I don't expect anything that bad going forward. Charlie's statement is puzzling given the performance over the last coupla weeks.

When the talent is this poor across the board, lineup construction is irrelevant.

i like this lineup. it'd really be something if dom or mayberry could assert themselves and earn that 5-spot. but oh well. delmon young!

I don't think Charlie really "called out" the SPs recently...

The only big quotes made recently where he calls out anyone, it seems to be the hitters, not the pitchers.

http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/frustrated-manuel-challenges-phillies-hitters-after-another-feeble

Humberto is the new Tim McCarver.

Phillies are the only team in the NL to not homer off a LHP per Stark.

Buster - MG posted a specific quote in the last thread. That was the basis for the discussion.

In a World Series-winning lineup, Jimmy Rollins circa 2013 hits 7th. Here's my attempt to build a line-up around JRoll in the 7 hole.

Utley
M. Young
Ruiz
Howard
D. Young
Brown/Ruf platoon
Rollins
Revere

I think you mean Howard/Ruf platoon.

RAJ: "How can you be so upset? On what grounds?"

Charlie: "I'm shocked, shocked to find out the lefties have been split and Utley is hitting second."

[clubhouse attendant hands Charlie a piece of paper]

Clubhouse Attendant: "Your lineup card, Sir."

Charlie: {soft voice] "Oh, thank you very much."

"John Mayberry, who has just 11 plate appearances vs. lefties this season..."

I'm almost shocked by that bit of info. almost.

I know the starters have been hurt by Durbin & others allowing inherited runners to score but as Cholly said the other night the reason they haven't won as much as they should is because they haven't gotten the pitching most nights they need.

This? I have to admit, I don't remember what quote this could be referring to, and going through the CSN Phillies backlog of news posts, I don't see anything that stands out as suggesting he's shaming the SPs (although the headline: "Galvis' versatility keeping him on the field" made me chuckle).

He didn't even have anything to say in the post-game of the 5-0 loss to the Cards.

Win or lose, just score some runs! I felt like I was watching a soccer match last night!

Shaming? I'm not sure I meant to imply that, just that since Hamels and Doc have settled down the Phils have gotten the pitching they need. They've just scratched out 31 runs in that time.

Er, I said suggesting he's shaming them or calling them out. I just don't see a comment about that recently, from Manuel.

So I was just noting that in 7/12 games they've held opponents to 2 runs or less. That's elite pitching on most nights.

This from the mlb.com writeup"

"Jaime Garcia and the Cards' bullpen limited the Nats to two runs in the series finale, finishing a three-game sweep in which Washington's offense was held to four runs and went scoreless in 24 of 27 innings. Yadier Molina's two-run single led St. Louis."


Seems our friends from the South have a bit of trouble scoring from time to time as well.

Right. But you said MG had a specific quote from Manuel that he'd felt the SP was not up to snuff. I didn't see anything specific in the post, however, and I couldn't find said quote...

I'm not saying the offense doesn't need help, just responding to your comment that:

"Charlie's statement is puzzling given the performance over the last coupla weeks."

Said statement doesn't seem to exist.

Buster - I was just taking the statement from MG. No idea if Charlie actually said it.

awh: Adams is absolutely a guy who should not be on this team August 1, if they're still playing like this.

Not really here not there anyway to the question of what this team's strengths and weaknesses are.

Sophist: Bullcoming was RBG, but Crawford, which is where Bullcoming comes from, was Scalia. Scalia & RBG are on exactly the same page when it comes to confrontation issues.

lorecore (from the last thread): I was not lumping you in with bridge-dwellers like BAP and GTown who have been complaining about the team for sport since 2009. They come on here to complain about the team. I think you actually come on here to analyze the team.

MG is right though that, especially during game threads, things have gone completely off the deep end and the bridge-jumpers have come out in full force. I thought last night reading the game thread might be cathartic with how frustrating that crap was- instead there is stuff like 'Rollins is a POS' and 'Revere is the worst acquisition of Amaro's tenure.' Complete stupidity.

I actually think the conversation during the day has been great for the most part this season. But game threads have become unreadable.

I dunno what it means, but I have the increasingly rare "good feeling" about tonight's game.

Finally, a reason to be optimistic!

David Murphy ‏@HighCheese

Good news! Humberto Quintero has the same # of RBIs as the rest of the Phillies right-handed hitters combined http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/Manuel-decides-to-split-up-Chase-Utley-and-Ryan-Howard.html

I actually find the gallows humor of the game threads to be some of the most entertaining stuff on here.

I agree the hyperbole gets a bit much, and the "this guy should die!" rhetoric is unseemly, but that's always been around on the fringes, from one-time posters mostly. For regular posters (yes, even including "bridge-dwellers"), the tone is usually civil and the jokes pretty funny. Sure, it's overwhelmingly cynical and pessimistic, but a) um, have you watched this team? and b) it's the internet.

Yeah, the best comedic release are the Game Threads. However, I will grant that those who either know nothing about comedy or have some agenda/hatred, tend to also be most prevalent then, as well.

It's a shame, because where else are you going to find so much snark in one place? What's that you say? Spell it. T-W-I-T-...

My opinion is that it's appropriate to complain about the Phillies on a forum dedicated to Phillies baseball, & a waste of time to complain about the opinions of other posters on any forum. At any rate I'm not going to start waving my hand in the air in an attempt to divine which way the wind is blowing before offering my take.

Sure, it's overwhelmingly cynical and pessimistic, but a) um, have you watched this team?

___________________________________________

Explain the negativity in game threads then from 2009-2011.

Iceman: Agree that the game threads are getting a little over the top, and then you mention it and the bridge jumpers gang up on you. I will say this though on GTown Dave. I may think he is overly negative most of the time but I do believe a lot of his anger comes out of really wanting the team to do well and thus it is frustration. I think some people just like to point and say "Look guys, I was right."

Ice, was your use of exaggeration and hyperbole such as "complaining about the team for sport," "bridge-jumpers," "completely off the deep end," and "unreadable" while condemning the exaggeration and hyperbole in game threads intended to be ironic? I think it might have been brilliantly subtle, but I'm not certain.

"a) um, have you watched this team?"

See, this would be a fine excuse if the same complaining hadn't been taking place from 2009-2011.

I mean, hey, if you get off by coming on the Internet and cursing/complaining about something you're choosing to spend your free time on, by all means, go for it. It's just kind of weird and basically unreadable.

It's no coincidence that the discourse becomes much more civil and substantive from ~9AM-7PM every day. Even the stuff with Phlipper/Burrell & Werth today was at least about something substantive. When you read the same "joke" (I use the term loosely) during a game for the 100th time about how much Hamels/Rollins/Revere/whoever sucks, it's not that funny anymore. It's sort of pathetic.

GTown_Dave: "I dunno what it means, but I have the increasingly rare "good feeling" about tonight's game."

It means your standards have changed. In the past, having a "good feeling" about the game meant: I think they're going to win. Today, having a good feeling about the game means: I doubt they'll get no-hit & I can even imagine a scenario in which they score a run.

Utley is perfect for the 2 hole. Your 2 best hitters should be batting 2nd and 4th.

Of course, you can debate about who should hit 4th right now.

"Of course, you can debate about who should hit 4th right now."

Raul Valdes?

Mick O: I actually don't mind the hyperbole when it's used in humor. But when someone says "Revere was the worst acquisition of Amaro's tenure," he's not trying to be funny: he's being serious. And if that's supposed to be a 'joke,' what's funny about it?

It's the relentless complaining about the same things over and over again, under the guise of "humor," that gets old, and it was a tradition even when the team was winning divisions.

TTI- yeah, I understand I'm fighting a losing battle here, especially when the team is playing like this. Feel like it needs to be said, though. This place should be above some of the stuff that is said on here during games.

b_a_p: Two, even. But not in the same half-inning.

MG: This is like nails on a blackboard to me, although it's a common mistake. His name is Rodriguez, not Rodriquez. Unless you're a native of a place that speaks Portuguese, this is not a mistake you should be making.

sophist: What about Jarndyce v Jarndyce?

Jack, as always, is being disingenuous. The negativity and cynicism in game threads with the current team is IDENTICAL to what it was on this blog in 2006-12.

Iceman: Well, ok, so let's say it was meant to be serious. I mean, personally, I don't think Revere was the worst acquisition of Amaro's tenure. That's a pretty high bar to clear, you know?

But there's a long and storied tradition of wrong and stupid things being said on Beerleaguer, and just as long and storied a tradition of other commenters self-policing wrong and stupid comments by showing how stupid they are.

You could've very easily put the person in their place by posting a (long and exhaustive) list of worse Amaro acquisitions. Instead, you chose to whine about how negative people are here. Sorry, not much sympathy.

Iceman: Yeah the over the top hyperbole stuff is best suited to philly.com. Some people (and some of them are the same that do the over the top stuff in the game threads) say how great this website is for the discourse and all that- and it is- but the game thread stuff can be a wasteland.

Iceman: You have to be familiar with the commenter. Some posters here try to be funny and their over the top comments are tongue in cheek. Many others are just plain stupid and their over the top comments are sincere expressions.

Ice, fair point. I respect your cogent response to my sarcastic query. I have nothing else to add.


Jack, to his credit, pretty much sums up the essence of Beerleaguer with this;

"But there's a long and storied tradition of wrong and stupid things being said on Beerleaguer, and just as long and storied a tradition of other commenters self-policing wrong and stupid comments by showing how stupid they are."

Great up to 3 hrs of wheels and tbag blah blah blah again. Love MLB network when they break to the games. Listening to other announcers is a breath of fresh air. Then I snap back to reality and realize I have to listen to these two stiffs.

"Some posters here try to be funny and their over the top comments are tongue in cheek. Many others are just plain stupid and their over the top comments are sincere expressions."

Precisely. Candidly, what makes BL so special for me is that I often know who wrote a post before even looking at the time stamp. I love the varying opinions and skip over those I know are likely to be a waste of my time.

"Jarndyce and Jarndyce drones on. This scarecrow of a suit has, in course of time, become so complicated that no man alive knows what it means."

Kinda sounds like some of awh's posts, actually. I kid, I kid.

Rather see Brown and Howard swapped

I honestly don't have a good feeling about tonight at all. Still haven't seen enough of 'good Halladay' to feel like he's likely to dominate, no matter how weak the lineup is, and Wandy has given up 5 hits the entire year. And he's left-handed. Back when I thought they could take 3 of 4, I assumed this would be the loss.

Speaking of unbearable threads? This one, right here. Bunch of people on this board post negative things? Iceman, TTI and clout don't like it?

What else is new?

"Rather see Brown and Howard swapped "

Rather see Howard and Ruf swapped.

"You could've very easily put the person in their place by posting a (long and exhaustive) list of worse Amaro acquisitions. Instead, you chose to whine about how negative people are here. Sorry, not much sympathy."

Who is looking for sympathy? Pointing out that a statement is stupid is, as you said, a long-standing tradition on BL. The problem is, the people who most often have these statements pointed out as stupid are thoroughly offended and think they should be treated with kid gloves. I know how it goes.

I'll declare BL Bankruptcy on this whole subject because, like I said, I know I'm fighting a losing battle here. And it's basically a waste of time to discuss the discussions. I just thought MG made a good point when he said people here were being especially ridiculous this season with their proclamations, and most of that ridiculousness is confined to the game threads.

Rather see Howard and literally anyone else in baseball swapped right now.

Speaking of unbearable threads? This one, right here. Bunch of people on this board post negative things? Iceman, TTI and clout don't like it?

_______________________________________

and board cop Fatalotti gets involved.

THIS IS BEERLEAGUER!!!

But you do see everything on this blog, including people complaining about what other people are complaining about, how often they complain about it, and the way in which they complain about it. It is surreal sometimes.

Board cop? No benefits? No overtime? No company picnic?

sh!t job...

Well I would like to see Ruff up and platooned but that will never happen.

I like the stat about Phils being only team not to HR of a LHP. When your right handed power bat is JMJ and only has 11 ABs vs LHP. Its easy to see why.

Really wish Frandsen would see more time.

It's too hard to get Fransden playing time when you need to get Freddy Galvis at-bats as much as possible...

For Iceman: I declare Beerleaguer Bankruptcy on saying that Ben Revere was the worst acquisition of RAJ's tenure. For that matter, I declare Beerleaguer Bankruptcy on anything I say in the midst of any game in which we're being shutout by the likes of Jeff Locke.

However, I reserve the right to terminate the Beerleaguer Bankruptcy proceedings re Ben Revere if, come mid-season, he still has an OPS below, say, .625.

Poor control early on.

It's early, but Doc doesn't look comfortable out there.

This place is as empty at the start of a game as I've ever seen it.

This is an inauspicious start by Halladay. Same old. Can't throw strikes.

BAP, I think you're being a little premature in exercising that BL Bankruptcy. Of all the things you say that create consternation and debate, stating the Revere is unequivocally terrible is right up there with stating that TMac is a bad broadcaster.

Also, why can't the Phillies find a guy like Marte? He's all over the place.

Hang on, umpires get vacation time???

Don't they only work 7 months out of the year?

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