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Saturday, April 20, 2013

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The Indians have 19 runs in 6 innings tonight.

The Phillies have 18 runs in their past 8 games including tonight's...8 of which were in last night's game. They've averaged all of 1.43 runs per game in the other 7.

Sending down Kratz instead of Quintero would be idiocy in its highest form. I realize that Kratz has stunk so far, but his power alone makes him far more valuable than Quintero. If the Phillies are more worried about losing a .591 career OPS hitter via a waiver claim than they are about putting their best 25 players on the field, something is very wrong with the way they are operating.

Posted by: bay_area_phan | Saturday, April 20, 2013 at 09:59 PM

Kratz has a .477 OPS, bap.

The only NL teams with worse records are the Fish, Cubs, and Padres. Only NL team with a worse run differential is the Fish.

If one of their big names go down (Utley/Hamels/Lee/) for an extended period, it isn't hard to see the wheels completely failing off this team.

It is still way too early to think like that but I almost wonder if a colossal failure (say the Phils only win 72-73 games) is something that would cause the Phils FO to act and fire Amaro even with 2 years left on his deal. I think it might even take something worse than though.

playing out the string early this year. just don't try to make any deals before july 31. better draft picks finishing 4th

NEPP: Do you really believe Quintero will prove a better option?

NEPP: I don't care if his OPS is .000. He is better than Quintero.

I think both are atrocious and have zero business on an MLB roster.

I dont think it really matters which you keep though.

Well, things could be worse. You could be Phil Humber. This is how his first inning went: Out, single, single, double, double, walk, homer, double, single, double, shower.

Even more fun with numbers. Nick Swisher has twice as many hits as the Phillies did tonight.

4 for 6 with 3 doubles.

Quintero/Kratz is marginal. If the starters including Halladay/Lee/Hamels want Quintero, they will get him.

Well, things could be worse. You could be Phil Humber. This is how his first inning went: Out, single, single, double, double, walk, homer, double, single, double, shower.

Brutal to lose a Perfect Game after 1/3 of an inning like that.

While I don't believe Kratz is the stud that Gtown and BAP have been claiming since last year, he really can't be any worse than Quintero. Both are awful. Goosewurst would be better than either on defense and probably no worse on offense.

Considering Doc pretty much refuses to pitch to Kratz, that's a pretty huge strike against him.

It's time to try Freddy back there. Especially since he now has to be in the lineup somewhere.

clout: So you think the Phils should make a trade, then?

Dom Brown & Jesse Biddle for Tuffy straight up.

We might have to kick in some cash.

GTown: I think they should've kept Goosewurst. He would've been a better catcher and done a better Godshall's commercial.

Offense stunk again tonight but Lee gave them a poor shot to win this game with 5 IP, 5 ER. Lose most nights in the NL with that kind of outing form your starter.

The pitching on this team has had a few bright spots here and there but overall they've been bad.

For a team build around pitching & defense supposedly, the Phils haven't had a lot of either so far early in the year.

Its pretty clear that the window shut last year and it won't be opening again this year.

Be prepared for a massive selloff this summer and 60-65 wins at most. It's going to be an ugly few years but hopefully we get some good prospects back, some of our guys develop in the minors and Ownership stays willing to spend in 2015...

Also, hopefully UC and Rube are both gone by then.

NEPP - I don't know about that bad unless they are beset by a ton of injuries again and really bottom out.

It's pretty hard though to be positive about this team right except that fact that Hamels/Halladay are pitching better & Chooch comes back soon. Need to give it a bit more time.

If they only win 60-65 games and become a national laughingtock/embarrassment while playing in front of a ton of empty seats in Sept, that might be just enough to get Amaro canned.

I just don't see it though with 2 years left on his deal. Much more likely the Phils will scapegoat Cholly, fire more of the coaching staff including Dubee, and try to put a positive sheen on Sandberg.

I just hope the team is competitive this summer & watchable. There was a good 6-week stretch last summer where they weren't and really only when they got hot again in August was it interesting to pay closer attention.

Rebuilding fever--catch it!

GTown: I think they should've kept Goosewurst. He would've been a better catcher and done a better Godshall's commercial.

It's hard to argue otherwise, I'll give you that.

The Phils will have to go 7-2 to finish April > .500.

Remember all those early projections of an easy schedule leading to a positive start?
I'll leave it to MG set the odds, but there sure not good.

Counting on Chooch to save the '13 season feels a lot like counting on Ryan and Uts to save the '12. Fortunately 25 games is a lot shorter wait.

The only way the Phils win is if Hamels/Halladay really improve and the Phils start winning their share of Hamels/Lee/Halladay starts.

The team is built around that core principle (and the payroll reflects that) and the Phils are just 4-8 in their 12 GS so far. Why there record is a poor 7-11 overall.

In 2012, those 3 started 86 GS and the Phils went 47-39 (.547)

Hamels: 21-10
Lee: 12-18
Halladay: 14-11

In 2011, those 3 started 95 GS and the Phils went a smoldering 64-31 (.674)

Hamels: 18-13
Halladay: 24-8
Lee: 22-10

Thanks to MG and clout for providing the only glimmers of perspective/sanity in a sea of idiocy in that last thread.

They are pretty bad right now, though. It can't get much worse than this.

I'll again hand out an RX for xanax and zoloft to all of you ready to dive into the cliff into rebuilding. It's far from over, and not nearly as scary as last year.

So supposedly Howard is supposed to be available tomorrow. He's only 2-5 vs Westbrook but does have a 1 HR.

Nix is 4-11 with 1 HR. Yeah I kind of think Nix sucks and is limited. No reason he isn't in the lineup tomorrow night though and Galvis isn't on the bench.

Iceman - it can always get worse

$170 million for a .500 team will get Charlie fired...
Perhaps rube is shown the door too.

wow. watching replay of game and I just heard TMAC ask sarge if Freddy Galvis can play the outfield on a daily basis.I realize we were spoiled with Kalas but this current lineup is horrid. Spent 10 years listening to Mets excelent crew while living in Hoboken.At least larry Anderson is keeping it real on the radio.

I don't agree with BAP's normal daily idiocy, but I do agree that that was the worst game of the season to watch. The home opener at least had a few nice innings.

MG was right- Lynn was nothing special, and he dominated the whole lineup. That's embarrassing. Of course Mayberry did manage one hit, but he also hit into a predictable DP- he and Galvis, who shouldn't have been in the lineup, looked unsurprisingly overmatched. It was the regulars getting neutered that was the embarrassing part (that doesn't include Kratz's typical ineptitude, as he shouldn't even be a regular for the Iron Pigs).

I mean, they aren't this bad. They truly aren't. But this is as bad a stretch as I can remember the last few years. It kind of reminds me of 2010 when everyone here was giving up on them during that brutal May-June stretch.

MG was on point that if one of the big guys misses time, it could get out of hand quickly. Assuming that doesn't happen, though, Ruiz coming up will help a lot. But the entire lineup needs to get its collective head out of its collective rear first. It will eventually happen. But hopefully sooner rather than later, because this is sickening to watch.

Tomorrow is a pretty important game. Five games under 19 games into the season is a pretty big hole to dig themselves out of. Hopefully good Kendrick shows up.

kells - You don't have any of that level of foolishness on the radio. LA/Franske don't get completely critical of the team (they would get fired if they did and righly so) but if they see something that it isn't going well they will point it out. Especially LA as long as he doesn't go into hyperactive critical mode about a home plate umpire and his strike zone.

It's like watching two separate games when LA/Frankse are on the radio and Sarge/TMac on in the booth when things are going poorly.

Gave up on TMac/Sarge and will just turn them off if I am watching while going with a radio feed. It's only 3 innings.

Amaro just got a 4-year extension last March that I am sure if paying him a decent buck.

It would take a colossal failure (say the Phils only win 65 games) and become a national laughingstock in the process. Kind of got the sense that is what Amaro feared a bit last year but as they started to play better in the 2nd half he realized he could chalk it up to just bad year beset by bad luck/injuries.

Almost exactly how the Phils spun it, scapegoated the coaching staff by firing a bunch of them, and spinning it as a healthy team with a full year of Utley/Howard/Halladay with some offseason additions could contend this year for the playoffs.

If the Phils say win 75-80 games, Amaro is safe this offseason and he knows it. Cholly will fall on the sword and not be back along with Dubee. If things are really bad, the Phils will make Cholly fall on the sword before the end of the season but it would take a complete failure for that to happen like last year.

Amaro knows though that if this team doesn't make the playoffs this year that the chances they do next year are very slim. Basically becomes a lame duck GM in the process.

Mr. Glass

.218/.283/.345 with 3 XBHs in 60 PAs

It's a really small slice but a really ugly one nevertheless. Brown deserves a full year to start especially if this team isn't a playoff contender. Need to find out what they have with him over a full 150+ G season as a starter.

Still doesn't have a single SB though and defensively he has looked really shaky early on again. Tonight he almost misplayed a ball that he dropped on the transfer from his glove hand at the warning track. For whatever reason, he just gets lousy jumps on balls and doesn't take a good route on them. Pretty much given up hopes Brown is ever going to be even an average defensive OF.

Brown's only shot then to stay as a starter given his defensive and baserunning/basestealing limitations is to hit enough offensively. That means a line of say .260/.350/.420 this year with at least 15 HRs. If he posts another ~.700 OPS or so season while getting 500+ PAs, then the Phils have to consider him as sort of a bust and a guy who is only going to be a role player/PT player going ahead forward.

I really hope he isn't because it will make the coming rebuild next year just a bit more painful.

"Now is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." - Winston Churchill

I'm pretty certain, he was talking about the first 20 games of the baseball season.

Human Gnat

Revere:

.211/.253/.239 (.493) with just 7 runs. No 2Bs and only 1 triples.

Sadly he has had other months like this in his career:

July 2011 - .217/.280/.252 (.532) 115 ABs
Sept 2012 - .219/.281/.238 (.519) 105 ABs
May 2011 - .242/.265/.242 (.507) 33 ABs

When he is bad offensively, he is terrible. Anything under .600 OPS even for a utility-infielder or a scrub backup catcher stinks.

Maybe why the Twins are so readily and willing to part with him because when Revere doesn't hit for a decent AVG it is really ugly. 2 AM hooker ugly under the Frankford El

Just out of curiosity, which of our catchers does davthom73 support? Does he still post here? His support of Coste was so fulsome that, having forgotten his name, I was able to find it in 2 seconds on google.

Of course the best choice of all would be Nix, but he can't start because his bat is too valuable and will be needed for late inning heroics.

Well someone has to be available to save the day once Chase "Not Clutch" Utley screws everything up again ...

Posted by: GTown_Dave

Wow, Dave, you must have missed me. Turns out even when you're bending reality to suit your needs, you sometime can be prescient. Tonight was surely the night to conjure a false complaint against Utley, wasn't it? Nicely done!

I also, of course, never contended Nix (though he sucks) shouldn't be permitted to spot start. Fact is, playing Nix in right field is directly traceable to the loss of two games this season. He's a poorer fielder than he's credited for here. If in fact he should be starting (anywhere), as some posters here have argued for quite well, that's says a lot. He's a friggin' bench player on any semblance of a good team.

For the record: I found this place because I know Jason. The sleuthing skills of some posters here are second only to their baseball acumen.

This team is not this bad.

this team is not this bad.
Right. They are much worse

I really don't see this team as a 65-70 win team, but they certainly look like a .500 squad with very little room to be over that mark. This isn't the good old days when Howard would come alive for a month and a half, destroying the league.

Boston's move last year to dump major salary of aging players onto the Dodgers looks ingenious now. Sure wish that could have been us.

"Boston's move last year to dump major salary of aging players onto the Dodgers looks ingenious now."

Does it? I loved Boston's move at the time -- and actually still do. But, I'm not sure it looks ingenious as of April 21, 2013. Adrian Gonzalez has a .985 OPS & Carl Crawford .922. Of the 3 guys the Sox dumped, only Beckett isn't performing (0-3, 4.68). Meanwhile, Boston took the same money & sunk it into Victorino, Napoli, Dempster, Gomes and Drew, with mixed results. The jury is still out on that trade but, as of today, you'd have to say that Boston would be better off with Gonzalez & Crawford than with Napoli & Vic. Dempster has certainly been better than Beckett but Drew & Gomes have been worthless. The main reason Boston is winning is because they're getting huge bounce-backs from Lester & Bucholz & they finally have a healthy Ellsbury.

In short, I don't think it's clear yet that Boston is better off, at least in the short-term, for having made the trade. They're better off in terms of future flexibility, for sure. But that flexibility is only a plus insofar as it allows them to improve upon what they gave up in Crawford & Gonzalez. We know Gonzalez is a stud and, if Crawford's 2 down years prove to be injury-related anomalies, it's going to be difficult for Boston to spend their money in a way that improves the team as much as Gonzalez & Crawford would have.

As I was combing through those RedSox numbers, I came upon this statistical oddity:

In 71 PAs, Shane Victorino is hitting .311 with a .377 OBP, but with a slugging pct. of only .328. He has 1 extra base hit all year -- a double in the second game of the season. Seems he has turned into the very guy who is now replacing him in Philly -- except for the fact that he's hitting almost .100 points higher than the guy who replaced him.

BAP: i don't know, history seems to show that 100 million long term contracts are more a disaster than anythng else. A-rod, Zito, Werth, Teixeira, Soriano, Helton, Santana, Wells, Carolos Lee, and ahem Howard. I don't think it's to much of a leap to predict Pujols and Hamilton will be a disaster either.

Getting rid of them maybe all the gains needed.

I for one am grateful that we are not burdened with Vic's .377 OBP. Cholly might be tempted to bat him leadoff, in which case what would we do with Rollins (.274) or Revere (.253)?

Gonzalez I would bet ends up being a valuable piece, but his power numbers have been declining. Crawford is off to a hot start and will likely settle down probably in the .750 - .800 OPS range with decent steals numbers. Overall not worth the 20+ million he is owed for several years.

BABIP's for each thus far on the year:

Crawford - .412
Gonzalez - .389

I would expect those to settle down.

The way I see it, they took on $250 million in salary for three "big name" players, all of whom appear to be past their prime.

Branch: Long contracts are a double-edged sword. A-Rod had back-to-back .900+ OPS seasons, followed by back-to-back .800+ OPS seasons right after he signed his last contract extension. Carlos Lee's OPS in his first 3 years with Houston were .882, .937, .831. Soriano went .897, .876 in his first 2 seasons with the Cubs and was still at .821 last season. Santana had 3 excellent seasons with the Mets before injuries derailed his career. All of these contracts eventually became liabilities, as almost all mega-contracts will. But there is absolutely no way that their teams would have been able to find remotely equivalent production during the good years (and, in some cases, even the decline years) if they hadn't spent the money. It's a balancing test.

Of course, if you give a guy a superstar mega-contract which doesn't take effect until 2 years down the road -- and, by the time it takes effect, he's nowhere remotely close to a superstar -- then you have a serious problem. Not that I have any particular player in mind, mind you. I'm just speaking from a purely hypothetical standpoint.

squads: I don't disagree with you. I was just quibbling with your statement that the move looks "ingenius" right now. It might well look ingenius if Crawford & Gonzalez drop off as you predict, and if some of Boston's recent acquisitions start coming around. But, as of today, it's hard for me to say that it looks ingenius. And if Crawford returns to prior form and stays there for a few years, it might not look so ingenius even 2 years from now.

I wouldn't say Gonzalez is "past his prime". He's 31, and lots of superstar players have had fantastic years in their age 30-32 seasons.

Even last year, in his his down year, he still had a 116 OPS+ and was worth 3.3 fWAR. There's no reason to think that Adrian Gonzalez won't have a really good year for the Dodgers this year. He's a fantastic hitter, and he's not that old.

And that's not to defend the Gonzalez contract, but for this year, he's probably the 2nd best NL 1B behind Joey Votto.

Thanks to MG and clout for providing the only glimmers of perspective/sanity in a sea of idiocy in that last thread.
They are pretty bad right now, though. It can't get much worse than this.
Posted by: Iceman | Saturday, April 20, 2013 at 11:34 PM

I knew that the moment I declared to Iceman: “I love your posts…” I’d pay for it.

Face it Iceman, this team might be finished; no Utley, Rollins, or Carlos Ruiz heroics could possibly come into play to salvage this train wreck. Some examples:

• Ryan Howard could very well be finished as an everyday player. His impotence against LH pitching is well documented. At age 33, with a crippled left heel – his “push-off” heel – he appears doomed to an endless procession to and from the DL, as he scuffles to compensate for his lack of power. As they say in the NFL: “You can’t make the club in the tub”.
• The travesty of Ben Revere. Thanks, MG: .211/.253/.239 (.493) with just 7 runs. No 2Bs and only 1 triples. What Major League team has ever won anything with no walks and no power in the CF spot?
• Freddy Galveeeez, hitting .250/.323/.393 (.715 OPS), is seen as a bat that must find a spot in the lineup. Hence they play this career infielder in left field? Are you kidding me??
• Lannan is probably done for 2 months. And r00b has no options to replace his “OK” stats except to bring up Adam Morgan. Upon learning of Lannan’s injury, they run Morgan out and have him throw 100 pitches. That’s just brilliant player personnel management.
• The bullpen… “savior” Mike Adams appears to be not fully recovered from a serious procedure where at least a portion of his rib was removed. As usual, the team is mute regarding his status. The rest of the bullpen is totally hit or miss; how many years do we need to pray we are getting the “good” Bastardo?
• Last, but not least, the fragile state of Roy Halladay. Who can honestly say that he’ll survive this season? If he doesn’t, can the team win with Lee, Hamels and Kendrick?

This is a really sad time for this club. It has the same feeling as the mid-1990s. I’m also not heartened by the insistence that we stay under the luxury tax threshold – what better way to back-slide into a small-market mindset than the vicious circle of no wins/no fans/no money/no signings/no investment in player development/no wins… you get the idea.

It’s the dark ages again until I see an extended stretch of highly competitive baseball.

That's the thing about what the Red Sox did - they did get more long-term flexibility which should help them a fair amount but then turned around and signed a bunch of mediocre veterans to moderate deals.

Lucky that Napoli only get up getting 1 yr instead instead of the 3 yr/$39M deal he was really close to getting until his 2nd physical exam didn't go well.

I understand squads point though that now they have some real contract flexibility though that the Phils don't after even this year. After '14, Lackey's deal is up and even he looked good his first start this year.

If the Red Sox want to resign Ellsbury/Lester long-term after this year, they have the flexibility now.

What is going to be interesting is to see how the 2 highly-touted arms the Sox got from the Dodgers pan out. Sox just called up one of them the other day. Ditto Saltalamacchia.

The rising walk rate of Tim Lincecum:

2009: 7.5%
2010: 8.5%
2011: 9.6%
2012: 10.9%
2013: 14.0%

The declining strikeout rate of Tim Lincecum:

2009: 28.8%
2010: 25.8%
2011: 24.4%
2012: 23.0%
2013: 23.0%

He's basically turning into Jonathan Sanchez right before our very eyes. Kinda sad.

Fatalotti: I dunno. He'll finish his career w/ two World Series rings, both of which he very much helped earn, which is more than can be said of any of the Phillies "Aces".

Funny how all of the starting pitching depth the Dodgers had just 3 weeks ago has evaporated.

Greinke's shenanigans (I do think he met to hit Quentin and said something inflammatory to Quentin that caused him to charge the mound), Billingsley is back on the DL, they dealt Harang, and Capuano is on the shelf.

Now they are scrambling to come up with a 5th starter.

Yeah GTown, that helps lessen the blow. But he's basically pitched himself out of a mega contract, and it also kinda sucks for baseball when an otherworldly talent just kind of inexplicably falls back to Earth.

bittel: Who the hell is "Jason"? No one by that name posts here anymore ...

Before you bury the Phils, it's still mid-April and just about every team in front of them has their share of issues too.

Biggest issue for them going into the year was health and that remains the case. If they are healthy enough, they should stick .500 and stay in the thick of things simply because of the 2nd WC.

Fatalotti: In general, I agree. But I never liked Lincecum, so that lessens the blow considerably. More interesting to me thus far has been Matt Cain. He's been a roller coaster ride.

Lincecum's K rate is still plenty good. It's his walk rate which has been the source of all his problems. His last 2 times out, though, it has been much better, so maybe he has started to figure out whatever has gone wrong.

While a 23% K-rate is very good, it's nowhere near good enough to make up for a walk-rate above 10%, if you're a starter. Maybe a reliever can survive that, but not a starter.

Jesus, Bryce Harper has a line of .371/.426/.758 so far this year (221 wRC+) with 7 HR.

The kid's swing is just beautiful, and his hands are so friggin fast through the zone.

I would say he's going to terrify the Phils for the next decade, but seeing as we'll be cellar dwellers in short order, I'm pretty sure everyone's going to terrorize us.

Delmon Young is starting for the Threshers today, FYI.

RE: D. Young - I'm torn between hoping he sucks so badly that I never have to see him in a Phillies uniform, or that he's just called up already so we can get this farce over with.

What if he turned out to be very good?

I'd like him to keep his mouth shut, field his position competently, and smack some XBH on a fairly regular basis. I just want us to win more games than we lose, and anyone who helps us do so, I'll watch.

If he does suck, I do hope he's a short-lived project.

"I'd like him to keep his mouth shut, field his position competently, and smack some XBH on a fairly regular basis."

So did the Tigers.

Womp, womp...

An analysis of the Boston trade that relies heavily on the first ~20 games of the season and ignores all prospects involved in the deal. Pretty funny stuff.

Vexatious Troll: The contention was that Boston's salary dump "looks ingenious now." How would one go about analyzing what that move looks like "now" without heavily relying on what the players are doing "now?"

I see that Delmon Young has already managed to make an error in his very first start at Single A.

b_a_p: An analysis of D. Young's very first start at Single A using only stats from his very first start at Single A? Pretty funny stuff.

GTown: In fairness, to D. Young, he is not in Clearwater's lineup for defense. He's in there for production. And production, he has supplied -- with a sacrifice fly RBI. Better still, he has not had any useless walks.

b_a_p: Unfortunately for Delmon, there's no way of guessing how that's going to go over w/ Schizo GM ... Are Walks desirable today? Are they not? No one knows!

BAP, poor defense, no wasteful walks AND production??

You know that feeling you get when a plan comes together? RAJ has got that feeling right about now.

I could make a really distasteful Hannibal Smith-RAJ joke but I won't.

"You know that feeling you get when a plan comes together? RAJ has got that feeling right about now."

The last time a plan came together this well was when Hitler came up with the master stroke of invading Russia.

BAP offers irrefutable proof that Godwin's Law is unassailable.

Howzabout Napoleon invading Russia then?

Reductio ad Napoleonum?

Man, Mike Trout is a really good outfielder. That the Angels have him in left field is just a spoil of riches. He just made a beautiful diving catch, and made it look effortless (insofar as one can make a diving catch look effortless).

"Nate Schierholtz entered the weekend hitting .350 with eight extra-base hits and a 1.059 on-base-plus-slugging-percentage."-- Bob Brookover

Not saying I was a fan of Schierholtz, but those numbers sure would have helped the moribund Phillies lineup this season.

BAP- well, a rational person would not point to a 20-game span as being indicative of anything when it comes to who won/who lost a trade. But being as you are someone that can only form opinions in reaction to events that occurred five seconds ago, I'm not surprised you'd take the position that a handful of games somehow matters.

Not to worry; if Schierholtz was on this team he wouldn't be putting up those numbers; he'd be riding the bench watching Mayberry start against righties or Galvis playing the OF.

Per Matt Gelb:

The first batter hit a fly ball at Young and it landed for a triple. Young should have limited the hitter to a single had he taken a better route, said two people who attended the game in Lakeland, Fla. Later, in the seventh inning, Young committed a fielding error that allowed a runner to take an extra base.

(...)
Seven balls were hit Young's way and he misplayed those two. A scout who watched Young on Sunday said the outfielder moved better and without hesitation.

Here's the lineup tonight:

Rollins 6, Mayberry 9, Utley 4, Howard 3, Young 5, Brown 7, Revere 8, Kratz 2, Kendrick 1

LF - .218/.283/.345

CF - .211/.253/.239

It doesn't even matter how well D. Young hits once he comes up if that's how the rest of the OF is playing.

Zolecki: "RHP Jonathan Pettibone will start for the Phillies tomorrow. A roster move will be made tomorrow to accommodate him."

Pettibone, didn't expect that.
Delmon mislay RF? Did expect that.

Pettibone has only a 9.63 ERA and 2.143 WHIP this year, so he was clearly the best choice.

The argument that the Miguel Cabrera at 3B experiment has not been a failure is akin to the argument that because of his bat, you could probably stick Cabrera at SS, and it wouldn't be a failure.

Because based on his defensive ability, the Miguel Cabrera at 3B experiment has largely been a failure Watching the guy play third today, he may actually have less range than a catatonic patient.

And new thread.

Just for s&gs, where would the farm system rank if the phillies simply resolved to extend Lee's contract in 2009 and never traded for Halliday, extended Werth, and never traded for Pence. Oh and waited a year to extended Howard.

The farm would have a lot of potential, but again who have we traded that has had real MLB sucess.

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