Part of

« Game 3: Cliff Lee looks to salvage one | Main | Game 4: Phillies open season at home vs. KC »

Thursday, April 04, 2013


Am I wrong or are we currently 1-0 when Kool Earl posts in a game thread? I'll drink to that.

Medlen looked very, very, very average tonight. In normal weather, he probably goes 3-4 and gives up 6 ER.

Remember, he's their new Ace...right?

From last thread:

Edge, to be fair, I don't think GTown was blaming Revere for the DP, just hoping that Revere would have stolen earlier in the count, thus eliminating the possibility of the line drive/double play.

Posted by: Fatalotti | Thursday, April 04, 2013 at 09:41 PM

That was a just a general joke, directed more in good fun to Jack. I figured GTown was following in gameday, not directed at him.

...all is well in Mudville,
for Cliff Lee struck Braves out...

Great effort by Lee tonight with some early season help from the elements late.

Phils runs were tough to come by this series but they won't have a 3-game series worse this season I bet with RISP (4-25, .160) min. 15 chances.

Papelbon had great location on his fastball but what the hell happened to the juice on it. It was regularly just 91 tonight. Not much of a margin of error with that velocity.

That's more like it! Couldn't pick up Phils locally, so caught some of Marlins/Nats. The Fish aren't exactly the gold standard, but Nats look as tough as advertised. Harper shaping up to be a serious beast. My dismay in realizing he will bash the Phils for a decade or so is tempered by realizing he's going to be fun to watch.

Everyone calm down about velocity. It was Pap's second appearance of the season, in miserable weather. The gun on TV said 92 a bunch of times and he had an easy inning. If it said 93 instead, how much better would you feel? How much would it really mean to his performance? How hard was Cliff Lee throwing?

Whew... Please, please, please sweep KC!

Good win , one of our aces looked good in the first series. Pap came back after last night's bad outing. Maybe we get to see Q catching tomorrow. Day game after a night game + travel.
Mike W. - your headline is misleading; we did not win the series.

The best thing about this game was the ability of Lee to get ahead of the hitters on the count. It all cascades from that.

Opening Series

- Utley es en fuego. Miss the Panamanian.

- Funny how Lee didn't struggle one bit with Kratz behind the plate tonight (yeah that was a backhanded shot at Halladay for that dig on Kratz last night).

- Howard had a terrible series and really struggled at times with some really ugly swings at pitches well outside of the strike zone. Hope that he doesn't start the season in one of his funks. Desperately need his power and him to knock in RISP.

- M. Young continues to not hit anything hard and left off right where he was in the spring training the last 3 weeks of spring training. That was my biggest concern this spring as he hit ground ball after ground ball and made very little solid contact. Really need his gap power.

- D. Brown continues to spring together generally solid ABs with a good approach at the plate just as he did all of spring training.

- Cholly appears to think Galvis is a better PH than Frandsen (used him last night and tonight instead of Frandsen). I hope this idea doesn't stick.

- If Hamels/Lee have pitched well, I expect Cholly is going to keep them on the mound until they implode or are completely spent.

- Papelbon is the biggest concern to me in the pen right now. His fastball has no life on it the last 2 nights & that is a huge red flag for a guy who relies on it so heavily without a great offspeed pitch to complement it (slider, changeup).

MG, on the Phillies postgame they said that despite the lower velocity that Pap's fastball had good movement.

He did have 2 K's.

Or, are you of the ilk that think velocity is the only thing that matters?

Mike - He was 92 all spring.

Throwing 2-3 MPH slower than he was in April '11 and even a bit lower than last spring.

awh - Hell yeah. Especially with a guy who lives or dies with his fastball. Papelbon used to rev it up 96-97 even 2 years ago when necessary with no problem and was routinely at 95.

Because I am a greedy b8stard, and want 1 more NL East title for this team. Just for good measure, I want the Gnats humiliated by a (barely) 3rd-place finish.

BTW, room service? Can you please wake up Mr. Howard? He's missing his daily ribbie dosage and really needs to show up. Tomorrow would be awesome.

"Howard had a terrible series and really struggled at times with some really ugly swings at pitches well outside of the strike zone."

But on the bright side, he seems to be carving out a future for himself in the sitcom world.

MG- I love how you give a 'backhand slap' to Halladay and then parenthetically say 'Oh yeah, that was a backhand slap!' You got him good!

What did Doc say about Kratz? I didn't see anything.

Throwing 2-3 MPH slower than he was in April '11 and even a bit lower than last spring.

Posted by: MG | Thursday, April 04, 2013 at 10:42 PM

MG - OK, that's true, but what's the problem? He was basically as effective in 12 as 11.

"He wasn’t happy about either home run pitch. Gattis’ home run came on a mistake, Halladay said. The Upton home run came on a 1-2 pitch that he was “not fully committed to.” Catcher Erik Kratz set up down and in on Upton. In retrospect, Halladay said he should have come up and in on Upton to set him up for something away"

It wasn't Kratz's fault that Halladay threw a meatball right over the plate and missed the corner by at least 6 inches.

MG- I love how you give a 'backhand slap' to Halladay and then parenthetically say 'Oh yeah, that was a backhand slap!' You got him good!

What did Doc say about Kratz? I didn't see anything.

Posted by: Iceman | Thursday, April 04, 2013 at 10:50 PM

He wasn't happy with Kratz for his glove set up on the pitch that Upton hit his HR. I blame it on the frustruation of once being the best at what you do and now serving up HRs to guys left and right. Or hes just an Ahole. Take your pick.

Here are the upcoming pitching match-ups for these next six games at home:

Friday- Davis-Kendrick
Saturday- Mendoza-Lannan
Sunday- Shields-Hamels

Monday- Harvey-Halladay
Tuesday- Gee-Lee (haha)
Wednesday- Hefner-Kendrick

Harvey-Halladay is the only real lopsided match-up there. 4-2 is a realistic goal.

Meanwhile, Washington goes to Cincy and then gets CHW at home- so they will actually have to play MLB-caliber teams over this stretch. The Braves get the Cubs and the Marlins. Ugh.

Atlanta could put together a nice 9-game stretch here and find themselves out in front by the end of next week.

EDGE - I thought it was Halladay kind of placing some blame on Kratz. He wouldn't have said that if Chooch was behind the plate and it was a terrible pitch (90-MPH cutter that didn't cut and was right over the heart of the plate).

That's a pitch that almost any MLB hitter can handle and drive it.

Oh, yeah, that line. Is that really that big of a deal that he said that?

I guess in MG-world, he might as well said "That stupid sh*t Kratz can kiss my a*s."

Halladay's demeanor on the mound and on the bench last night were almost as troubling as his command.
He looked like a young pitcher, frustrated and angry. Not like the imperturbable ace, whose emotion was limited to a glare.

Iceman - Is it a big deal? No but it is something I wouldn't expect a veteran starter like Halladay to say and blame his backup catcher either. Halladay made a terrible pitch and Upton did drove it out. Blame was on him.

I read Halladay's quote pretty much how MG did. 'Not fully committed' is blaming himself, and withholding any endorsement of his catcher - he means, "I knew I should have shaken him off. . ."

Phils will then be set up for Lannan-Hamels-Halladay against the dregs in Miami against (I believe) Nolasco-Hernandez-Slowey, avoiding Phillie-killer Wade LeBlanc (3 starts, 20 innings, 2.70 ERA

It's on MG's 'list' this year, but he's right about it: they absolutely need to beat the living crap out of Miami this year. They are ripe for the picking, and Atlanta and Washington (as they did this week) are going to beat them like a drum. It could very well be the difference between contending and middling around .500. Need to start here by winning 2 of 3 or sweeping.

Where exactly in that comment is Halladay blaming Kratz? Because he said he wasn't totally committed to the pitch?

MG- yeah, uh, whatever. I'm not sure why it's worth even mentioning.

And we can agree to disagree on the pitch. I didn't think it was that awful, actually. It wasn't great, but it's wasn't some meatball. Upton is a freaking beast and muscled it out to the opposite field.

How was Halladay blaming that on Kratz? The part about setting up wasn't Halladay being quoted, but rather the reporter putting the quote in a context that I don't think is strictly correct.

The "Halladay said he should have come up and in to set up for the following one away" bit seemed more frustration at himself for not throwing up and in.

Also, Howard did have a few bad ABs, especially in the first game, but tonight's looked mostly solid, and he had some pretty good ones too, even if he only managed a single hit out of them.

Think velocity doesn't matter? Tell that to the father of this kid.

Is it certain that Lannan will pitch Saturday? I thought there was a possibility of skipping his first start with the off-day we had Tuesday. I've been wondering which way the Phillies would go.

Why did we sign Adams if Cholly won't use in an April game in the cold? Did Cliff have to pitch the 8th? TV announcers made a big deal about using Adams to spell Cliff then Cholly uses Cliff in the 8th

If the Phils are in need of a 9th inning save, is Pap available Friday to pitch for a third straight day?

GBrettFan: I'm guessing with the way Halladay is pitching, they aren't skipping anyone else's turn in the rotation right about now.

Way to cut the big bad Braves down to size Cliffy. Maybe our other Aces will learn a thing or two from his performance. Lee didn't win his first game till July 4th last year - "hard to believe, Harry."

"Why did we sign Adams if Cholly won't use in an April game in the cold? Did Cliff have to pitch the 8th?"

Lee pitched an 8-pitch 1-2-3 inning. What on earth is there to be upset about?

A good of rule of thumb: if you've got a starter who's dialed in, and whose pitch count is below 100, you don't remove him. The fewer pitchers you use, the less chance there is that one of them will have a bad game.

Let's soak up a bit of Lee's performance tonight. On a very cold evening with a constant mist falling and a steady wind blowing, Cliff Lee threw 106 pitches and 78 of them were strikes. Wow.....

Cliff Lee is good at baseball.

Fish have scored 1 run so far (a HR today) in their first 3 games.

Fish have 3 games in NY this weekend vs Mets. If they don't win won of those games, they have a pretty rough schedule coming up:

3 vs Braves
3 vs Phils
3 vs Nats
4 vs @ Reds

Stanton has walked 3 times in his first 3 games. He won't get anywhere near Bonds insane '04 number (232 times and a record that will never be close to being broken).

I do wonder if he will get close to the high mark the past decade or so (132 by Bautista in '11). I have to think he will as long as he stays healthy and starts 150+ G.

Good thing Kratz has Internet poster MG on his side to take a bankhanded swipe at Roy Halladay. I'm sure he smiled on the plane ride home.

Didn't get to see the game last night as there were some real world issues going on but saw the highlights and lee looked dialed in. Great to see because with Doc becoming human we need Cliff to go superhuman again. And if we happen to fall out of contention it will make him a valuable commodity again should we be selling off pieces.

Cliff came up huge last nite. I think Fat mentioned this the other day, but when he's pitching I rarely, if ever, notice the velocity with which he's throwing. Don't know what Doc's issues are, if any, but his 10,000 yard stare when Dubee was talking to him can't be interpreted positively.

Phils wasted a bunch of opportunities to put the game away last nite. Hopefully that will change as the weather gets warmer.

So one start into the season and Halladay, according to MG has:

- blamed his catcher passive-aggressively
- yelled at the coaching staff when pulled
- refused to talk to Dubee on the bench

I think MG's new whipping boy is Doc.

Redburb: Don't forget:

---hiding some injury from the Phillies medical staff.

----Phillies medical staff doesn't give two shits about the injury.

That's the kind of win an ace needs to come up with. Very nice to see. And Papelbon was downright filthy last night. I really liked their approach in the early innings at the plate. Hoping that Revere being robbed by Heyward is a sign of him finally squaring some balls up. Jimmy is off to a nice start. I wonder how long the Revere leadoff experiment will last if Jimmy continues to stay hot.

Oh and sorry Erik for calling for Joseph before last night's game.

Somewhere in DC, Jack is deleting his "Phils can't overcome an 0-3" start post.

Ouch. The Phil's farm teams all lost opening day....being outscored 33-6 and out hit 53-21.

Cliff Lee threw 106 pitches and 78 of them were strikes. Wow.....
Wasn't he at 40 pitches after 2 innings? Lee is so much fun to watch when he's locked in.

Ouch. The Phil's farm teams all lost opening day....being outscored 33-6 and out hit 53-21.

Decade = Over

Anyone who saw this team's handling of Utley's knee condition should be approaching the Doc situation with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Cliff Lee may not be the best pitcher in baseball (though FanGraphs did project him to be), but one thing is undoubtedly true: when Lee is pitching as well as he can, there is no pitcher in baseball who can mow through a lineup with such ease. Lee is a special pitcher.

Very good win last night. Losing 2 of 3 on the road to a divisional rival is hardly a crime, will happen to everyone this year.

The Braves strategy of trying to work the count like they did vs Hamels/Halladay backfired on them since Lee just filled up the strikezone early and often. By the 3rd time through the lineup, they tried to adjust and Lee just buried thee deeper, averaging about ~10 pitches the last 3 innings.

lorecore, it was kind of working for them early, as Lee was at about 40 pitches after 2 innings. And it's a strategy that's going to work against most pitches, as Lee is a rare pitcher whose control doesn't come and go throughout a start.

When lee is hitting the corners, I'm not sure there's an approach to him that will succeed. But that just reinforces my belief that good pitching with always beat good hitting.

fatal: fangraphs actually had Yu Darvish as the best pitcher - followed by Lee.

lorecore, I think they had them both at 5.9 fWAR, but I could be wrong.

I don't know what it foretells for the rest of the season but a common theme on BL this off-season was the Phillies inability to work walks and how it would hurt them because they would have a tough time working up an opposing pitcher's pitch count. (And the inability to walk is an absolute legitimate gripe- not complaining about that)

In the first 3 games the opposing pitchers went:

Hudson-4.1 IP, 90 pitches (~18 pitches per IP)
Maholm- 5.2, 97 pitches (~16 pitches per IP)
Medlen- (~18 pitches per IP)

Not huge numbers but the Phillies did a good job of working deep into some counts and fouling off a lot of pitches running up pitch counts. If you can get pitchers into the 90 pitch range in 4-5 innings you should be able to win a good deal of games.

The Phillies have 5 guys in the regular lineup who are going to have BB% higher than the league average (usually ~8%)

Dom Brown: Career 10.3%
Ryan Howard: 12.0%
Chase Utley: 9.8% (has been ~12+ 3 of the past 4 years; doesn't consider his skill of getting HBP, either)
Carlos Ruiz: 10.4% (though, was only at 6.9 last year)
Jimmy Rollins: 7.6% (has been above average the least 3 seasons)

Mayberry and Nix are slightly below average, overall, at drawing walks, while Revere and the Youngs are abysmal, as are Galvis and Frandsen.

My guess: the Phillies will float around league average in terms of drawing walks this year. Won't be a huge weakness, but won't be a strength, either.

Cliff's the man, 'nuff said. It's great to have a brilliantly pitched win - especially by one of our aging aces -after the first two games.

For anyone who was hoping for Adams to go out there in the 8th, since Adams pitched Thursday night and Cliff was killing it, I say it was the right call. Better to let him rest a day so he'll be available to pitch as much as possible for the home series when KK and Lannan are set not to go 9.

Also, it was gratifying seeing BJ not catch that first fly by Jimmy in the 1st. It seemed completely catchable if he busted it a little to get to the ball, which is exactly one of the reasons I was against signing him. Glad it won't be happening in Philly.

Fata: I guess my larger point would be that even without the walks (again, something you don't really want) the Phillies should hopefully be able to get pitch counts up.

Whoops: *Adams pitched Wednesday

TTI, whenever I think of driving a pitchers count up, I think of it through either drawing walks or getting hits. I guess the other way is to foul balls off. I mean, presumably, a bunch of batters could work 3-2 counts every tie up, but that's unlikely.

I wonder if fouling pitches off for the purpose of working the count is a repeatable skill, and if it's been studied. I'm sure it has, but still an interesting question.

That being said, I'd still expect this team to be league average at driving up the SP's pitch count, in light of their overall ability to draw walks and gets hits.

Wade Davis getting the start tonight. I thought the Rays clearly showed that he is much better suited for the bullpen. He was a below 6 k/9 pitcher in 64 starts, and then an above 11 k/9 pitcher in 54 relief appearenes, with all of FB/CB/SL amping up 2-3mph harder out of the pen.

Here's to the Phillies bumping him back to then pen after today.

Courtesy of DPatrone, this is the absolute essence of a Beerleaguer post (the topic is Rube's offseason):

"What they were supposed to do was do better than they did. How? I don't know."

Mike: "Everyone calm down about velocity. It was Pap's second appearance of the season, in miserable weather."

Clearly you do not pay attention to posters here. Velocity isn't the most important thing. It's the only thing.

Yep, having watched Roy Halladay and Brad Lidge have notable decreases in velocity over the last few years, which signaled that they were injured and would be less effective going forward, we should not, in any manner, be cognizant of, nor concerned with, a notable decrease in velocity by our 32 year old closer who is absolutely reliant upon his fastball.

Fatalotti: I totally agree. Velocity is the only thing that matters.

Fatalotti: I'm sorry. Velocity and WAR.

Clout, honest question: can Papelbon be an elite closer with a fastball that sits 90-92?

Inciarte headed back to AZ.

Hope he enjoyed his one day in the bigs.

Fatalotti: Absolutely impossible. It's why, as you and others predicted, Kyle Kendrick could never have a major league career.

Gotta be at 94 to pitch in MLB.

I'm not concerned about Pap yet, in response to fears of decreased velocity. But let's say he does start to struggle: could he learn Dubee's infamous changeup? Of course it's probably difficult/unadvised to work on a pitch mid-season, but if he gets despearte enough...

Honest question: can Papelbon be an elite closer with a fastball that sits 90-92?

Posted by: Fatalotti | Friday, April 05, 2013 at 10:30 AM

Honest answer: yes, depending on his splitter. Plenty of closers sit 90-92 and are successful.

Fatalotti: Absolutely impossible. It's why, as you and others predicted, Kyle Kendrick could never have a major league career.

Gotta be at 94 to pitch in MLB.

Posted by: clout | Friday, April 05, 2013 at 10:36 AM

That's not what I asked, but avoid the questions, so you can keep trolling.

Here's an experiment: compare your level of confidence and anxiety going into Roy Halladay's first start a few days ago to today's game with Kyle Kendrick on the mound. I'm anxious that I'm significantly less anxious about Kendrick starting as compared to Roy. Scary

Fatalotti: OK, I was being a smartass, but to seriously answer your question, I'd echo Chris: Paps has a pretty good splitter and decent slider. If he can keep a separation between those pitches, say a drop of 5 mph to the split and another 8-10 mph to the slider, then I think he could throw 92 and be successful, assuming he hasn't lost any command.

I think it's the disparity between expectation based on skill and expectation based on role.

Kendrick is the #4 guy, and we expect him to be average-to-slightly-above-average (which is better than most #4s).

Halladay was our #2 guy, and we expected him to be below average (but hoped he could still be a #2).

The opposition plays into it somewhat too. We expect the Braves to mash, and we expect the Royals to be... The Royals.

Chris in VT: I agree that plenty of closers sit at 90-92 and are successful, I'm just skeptical that Jonathan Papelbon, specifically, can be elite, as in one of the top relief pitchers in the game, which is what we're paying him to be.

I'm sure he could etch out being a decent reliever, just like Brad Lidge finally figured out in his last two years here (when he was healthy). But being able to pitch at this level and being near the best are different things.

FWIW, Mariano Rivera's regular fastball sits around 90. Of course, he's got the greatest cutter in the history of the world, but it does show you a power-pitcher can be a successful closer without throwing 94.

Can someone study at what point in a thread's life it becomes most contentious? I imagine there is a consistent point in time (my guess is something like 6 hours of non-game action) where a thread devolves past a point of no return. When you figure this out pass it along to JW and company so they can get a new topic up there before things reach that point.

gobaystars!: Contentious=page views.

Fata: I don't know if fouling off pitches is a repeatable skill. i think what it shows is that guys have an idea up there of trying to swing at close 2 strike pitches which is something that you can sustain if you have quick hands through the zone. I think that applies to Utley, Rollins, Brown and Revere to some small degree.

Should be interesting to watch. They won't draw a ton of walks and thus it affects the OBP but on another level I think an inherent skill of strong OBP teams is that they get into opposing bullpens faster against lesser quality pitchers normally. For this team- there are a lot of good fastball hitting batters and the tendency in bullpens seems to be ramping up fastballs anymore. Seems like you could make a case that a key for success to this team is getting into bullpens quickly.

clout, I don't dispute that pitchers don't need immense heaters to be successful or to be among the best. Maddux and Rivera are clear cut examples of that.

But Papelbon has made a living out of relying on his incredible fastball. Papelbon losing mustard on his fastball is different than another pitcher who doesn't rely on his fastball as much losing mustard.

I'm not saying we should be gripped with panic about Papelbon yet. I'm willing to grant that it's early, but it's something that bears watching.

If he sits at 90-92 all year, I don't think he'll be one of the better closers in the game. Just my opinion.

Why wouldn't fouling off pitches be a repeatable skill?

Has Papelbon, like most Phillies "ace-caliber" pitchers, started throwing a filthy change-up yet?

Fangraphs says no, although he did notch a split-fingered over 20% of the time in 2012 (accompanied by a corresponding decrease in FB and SL). If he loses so much speed that his fastball is no longer effective (no evidence of that yet), perhaps he'll switch to splitter/changeup/slider?

BAP, my guess is that hitters are trying to put nearly all balls they swing at into play, so while the skill of making contact in and out of the zone is obviously repeatable, is the ball being hit foul repeatable?

BAP: If the primary goal was to foul pitches off, i'm sure players could become better at it then others.

However, hitting balls fouls is technically only a good thing when a player has two strikes on him and then incoming pitch is a potential 3rd strike that is less likely to be put into play for a basehit than normal.

Thats a whole lot of qualifiers before a foul ball can be considered something that players would actually use a skill towards it.

Fatalotti - That's why I said it would depend on his splitter (and his slider as well, to a lesser extent). Pap has had, at various times in his career, a nasty splitter that really worked well of his FB. If he can consistently harness that pitch, he could remain an elite closer.

But that's not to say that his declining fastball velocity isn't something to watch. Just that we should probably wait until it actually affects his performance to say that it's affecting his performance.

It appears, at first blush, that it is repeatable. Haven't read the whole thign yet.

BAP, my guess is that hitters are trying to put nearly all balls they swing at into play, so while the skill of making contact in and out of the zone is obviously repeatable, is the ball being hit foul repeatable?
Posted by: Fatalotti | Friday, April 05, 2013 at 11:05 AM

This is completely anecdotal, but I do recall many players with above average hand-eye coordination talking about how they have tried to foul off tough pitches to get a pitch they want...and I've definitely seen players throw swings at pitches that are obviously not intended to get a hit, just to poke the ball away to avoid a called third strike.

Study from '08 basically suggests that there is a strong correlation between high-average, low-power hitters and their tendency to hit foul balls...which would make sense.

Broadcasters often talk about fouling off pitches to "stay alive", like it's an intended outcome. Whether that's what some players are actually trying to do, I don't know...

BAP: I only said I didn't know because it I had never seen any studies on it and I didn't have the time or energy today yet to look it up.

I did feel though that in the Braves series the team seemed to shorten their swings up with two strikes. I wonder if that is a by product of the new hitting coaches in place.

"my guess is that hitters are trying to put nearly all balls they swing at into play, so while the skill of making contact in and out of the zone is obviously repeatable, is the ball being hit foul repeatable?"

I've always assumed that hitters (or at least those with good batting eyes) intentionally foul off a lot of tough 2-strike pitches as a way of protecting the plate. It's not that they're doing it to drive up the pitcher's pitch count per se. They're just doing it to get a pitch that they like.

lorecore -

The study I posted did include a separation between 2-strike fouls and others...and it does seem to suggest a connection with being a high-average singles hitter and one's ability to foul off 2-strike pitches.

"I only said I didn't know because it I had never seen any studies on it and I didn't have the time or energy today yet to look it up."

It would be a tough thing to study. It seems to me that the best way to get at the answer would be to simply ask a few hitters: do you intentionally foul off 2-strike pitches, or are you trying to put everything in play?

BAP: But then you have to take them at their words. I would think you'd have to wait until after they retired to get a reliable answer, since any time a pitcher knows more about a hitter's approach, they gain an advantage.

I think the studies pretty much show that a hitter who is good at fouling off pitches in 2-strike counts can repeat that skill going forward, and that, like Chris said, low-power, contact dependent hitters are more likely to be the type of hitter that fouls off a lot of pitches.

Now, whether the Phillies possess any of these types of players, which would lead to them driving up pitch counts by virtue of them fouling off a lot more pitches, is hard to say. I don't know if that data is available for teams.

I suppose you could look at % of foul balls on swings with 0, 1 and 2 strikes. But 2 strike swings might be more tentative, than trying to rake with 0 or 1 strike. It seems impossible to judge intent. I don't see how looking at the swing data could give you anything anlaysis that has any credibility.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories


Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel