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Friday, April 26, 2013


They see Jack trollin', Phillie hating, typin' dumb sh!t always postin' dirty

typin' dumb sh!t, postin' dirty
typin' dumb sh!t, postin' dirty

I mean seriously, you are just making stuff up. I've posted over the past week how poor this team has been of late, and how sloppy they have played. I do think though they need to be given some time to see whether they turn it around though before you panic. i realize that a guy who has been calling them a horrible team since 2009 won't understand that, but other people on here are far more reasonable.

Posted by: The Truth Injection | Friday, April 26, 2013 at 11:25 AM

The problem with Mayberry is that he is kind of miscast in his role. Even in a strict platoon he is probably a little miscast. He is a 4th outfielder and I think that is his ceiling. He isn't a guy that is going to be, or should be, an everyday player.

It's hard to necessarily get on his case about whatever people are getting on him about when he is miscast.

Posted by: The Truth Injection | Friday, April 26, 2013 at 11:32 AM

Depressing stats, Corey. Let me sum it up: This team is not good.

On the topic at hand:

The stats themselves are correctable. That is sort of the nature of baseball. No one starts out in one direction and then gets stuck there.

I think the real nature of this team is that they need Ruiz back in the lineup. Even 2009-2011 Ruiz is an upgrade over Kratz/Quintero. Plus Kratz back in his backup role probably helps him out some. I can see him being Kendrick's catcher often.

I think the real test for the team is next week when the lineup is basically together (minus D. Young yet) and we have the Indians and Marlins. Problem is we could be 8 game sunder .500 at that point unless they man up over the weekend against the Mets. Losing that series, or a sweep, and BL will be a miserable place to be Monday morning.

Iceman: "Jack- do you think the numbers they've put up so far will be consistent all year- that is, where they are ranked now is where they'll be ranked at the end of the year?"

I think they'll end the year close to 23rd in the majors in runs scored, yes.

Where do you think they'll finish?

TTI: "i realize that a guy who has been calling them a horrible team since 2009 won't understand that, but other people on here are far more reasonable."

Yeah, this just isn't true, but ok. In fact, I predicted them to win the division every year since 2008, before this one.

What I did say was that the end of the run was coming a lot sooner than people thought, probably around 2012-2013, not like you who thought this team was built to win for the long haul. I've consistently maintained that I thought Amaro has done a terrible job of building anything for the medium to long-term, and that teams tend to fall off a cliff faster than fans expect.

That all appears to be true, so far.

"Seventh-worst record in baseball. Sixth-worst run differential. Eighth-fewest runs scored. Sixth-most runs allowed."

Yeah. Just not a good team, any way you slice it.

Trying to put blame on one portion of the team over the other is just a way of letting the front office off the hook. They failed everywhere (if you think the goal was to put a successful contender on the field, of course).

Team sucks.

Amaro sucks

I'm glad we're so bad that we're not going to 'go for it' again in July. We have a ton of veteran guys that have trade value that we can get some prospects four. Here they are in order of positive trade value:

1. Halladay (if he really figured it out)
2. Utley
3. Lee (eating some money will bring in a better prospect than Utley)
4. Adams (if he stays healthy)
5. Ruiz
6. Papelbon (we'll have to eat some money)

If we sell everyone and eat money for Lee and Papelbon, we could get 2-3 top 100 dudes and a few more top 10 org guys. Our farm would go from mid 20s to the mid teens.

Bloodsuckers suck.

I'm usually one of the last to bail - but I've bailed.

My posts on beerleaguer will be likely limited to gambling, the minors, and possible trade scenarios. I'll still be a DOM nuthugger, and maybe root for Revere since I really can't believe he's this bad - but other than that I just don't care anymore.

I don't know what's worse: the Phillies play as of late or incessant posters saying "I told you so!"

It's a shame that some posters have turned what was good baseball discussion into personal vindictiveness and dumb banter.

If it is a firesale, does anyone have much confidence in the ability of the FO to identify prospects worth having?

Also, I think some assets are more valuable to keep (I'm thinking Utley, in particular)

The longview is an important positive, Nik, but I caution you to consider our GM's dubious record of talent evaluation.

I should add, does anyone think the FO has the ability to id POSITION PLAYER prospects

Everyone here is going to feel dumb when Delmon Young comes back and hits 25 homeruns and sparks the team's drive to win the WC!

Jack- what do you mean 'close'?

I think they'll be in the top 20 in runs scored, and that many of the horrid splits they have (like the ones Corey posted) will improve. Sound like a bet to you?

Iceman: Yeah, I'll take bottom 10 in runs scored.

At least we're not the mid-2000s Cubs, right?

Jack spent the years 2009-2011 making one prediction in the prediction thread that they'd win the division, then spent the entire year sh*tting on the team. This was especially the case in 2011, when he laughed at anyone that thought they could come close to 100 wins.

He was either trolling or hedging his bets with his pre-season WL prediction. Either way, no one gives a sh*t.


Though I admit it's a matter of personal taste, I share GTown_Dave's view that the pathetic offense is even more annoying than the pathetic bullpen. Here's why: bullpens are very much subject to the vicissitudes of chance & are not easy to fix. Last year, Jeremy Horst and Raul Valdes were terrific. This year, they're hideous. 3 years ago, Jason Grilli was a AAAA journeyman; now he's an elite closer. 2 years ago, John Axford went 46 for 48 in save situations. Now he's terrible.

My point is: while our bullpen is awful, it's difficult for me to summon much outrage about the situation, because it's an inherently difficult problem to solve. Hell, RAJ has spent $19M over the last 2 off-seasons to acquire the best closer & best setup man on their respective FA markets. It's not like he isn't trying to solve the problem. If anything, I'd argue that he's trying too hard by throwing gobs of money at an area in which you never exactly know what you're getting, and in which solutions often spring up out of nowhere for far less money (this is the point Jack has been making since the off-season). But I can't say that RAJ doesn't recognize the problem, nor can I claim that he hasn't tried to solve it. He has tried desperately.

On the other hand, he hasn't done much to solve the problems on offense. And, unlike the bullpen, those problems are not insoluble at all. If you sign Josh Willingham or Nick Swisher, you pretty much know what you're going to get -- at least for the first few years.

Iceman: I did not think the team would win 100 games in 2011, mostly because I don't think predicting any team to win 100 games is ever a smart choice. I think I predicted them to win 95 games or so.

But you are right. I did not think they would win 100 in 2011, and I was wrong.

If the team does a wholesale dump (hey, let's include Michael Young), there's a real issue of the 40 man roster. 25 men must be on the active roster. That means 15 in the minors. In addition to High-A/AA guys, Amaro would have to get a mix of ready-to-play prospects to replace the traded guys on the active roster, as well as pre-roster guys (first 2 years, IIRC). That would 1st year PTBNLs, so that the team can sort those guys out for a year. What you absolutely don't want is Nate Schierholz type guys, who clog the roster for no apparent reason.

And kicking in money to offset salary in order to get better prospects should be a prime objective. Talent uber alles.

Unfortunately, I'm not very confident in Ruben pulling this off.

I don't understand how I was dumb enough to think the positives from spring training would translate to the regular season. For this, I hate myself. This team is so flawed...everywhere.

not like you who thought this team was built to win for the long haul.


Please find where I said this at any point. I mean I realize you finally get to come on here and gloat and say "I told you so" to everyone but stop making up nonsense.

I never had any illusions that the team would compete year in and year out for the playoffs for the foreseeable future. The closest thing I said was that the team needs to make trades while holding some prospects back so they can replenish as the years go on. I guess that is highly disputable to you, but there was a path to follow and to this point they seem to be way off that path and Amaro is the guy- as much as it sucks- to try and get them back. Don't know if he can.

Let's say hypothetically- 2 months from now we are still sitting well under .500 and looking completely out of it. (currently 4.5 GB of the second Wild Card so we have time).

You clearly are trading guys and we've discussed who you look to trade. My question is this:

What positions are you most worried about acquiring back in trades- be it prospects, young cheap starters, or fringe bench guys? What would you be looking to fill?

I'm worried about all of them TTI. All of them.

TTI: I wouldn't worry about positions at all, is the honest answer. I would want the best players being offered, regardless of position.

That said, if you tell me two players are equally ranked, I would probably take the position player over the pitcher, right now, depending on the skillsets (a position player noted for plate discipline and/or power would be a particluarly welcome addition).

The one thing I would not try and do (and I know this will get ridiculed) is search for relief pitchers. They have many more important holes, and should be trying to get guys who can ultimately be starters, either position players or pitchers. If a guy doesn't end up as a starter, then you might have a good reliever on your hands. But I don't advocate trying to actively find relief pitching prospects.

I'm in lorecore's camp. I bitch and moan all the time, but, like most of you, I live and die with this team. Mind you, I've been a rabid fan since 1950 when I was eight years old, having moved to this country with my family (of course) from Argentina and just learning about the game. So, 1964, the 23-game losing streak, etc. are firmly etched in my psyche.

All this to say that they are, at best, a middling team. At worst? Well, we're seeing it. I too want them to hit rock bottom and shed major payroll at and after the trade deadline. Otherwise, they will continue to be mediocre. We deserve much, much better.

If ownership were bold, Amaro would be gone with UC limping out the door behind him. Given his status of being a WS winning manager, he will last this entire season.

What I would like to see is, again, a purge of payroll and some very decent players along with it. They will have to eat portions of some contracts, as acknowledged.

Then get back AA and AAA prospects to reload the farm system and build a feeder system for the future. I am amazed at how bereft of everyday talent the farm system is. So far, while some averages are up there, there is little to no power up and down the farm.

With the payroll then much more manageable, they (hopefully, not Amaro) can approach free agency this winter with smart pickups and money allocated more evenly throughout the roster. For example, as we have seen, entire bullpens can be assembled for $5-10 million.

Maybe, with Ruiz returning and Delmon Young playing somewhat close to his top draft status, they can turn it around. I'm happy to eat crow, but I just don't see it.

TTI, that's the elephant in the room. Anointing the team as "sellers" is pretty easy, considering the veteran expiring contracts that will have value to other teams. The biggest question is "what do we get in return?" More so, do we really want RAJ to be the one to determine that (I'm convinced that it's almost a unanimous "no" on that one - BL would rather have to listen to 24 solid hours of TMac).

For instance, let's say that Chase Utley is a hotly sought after commodity, due to his positional value and flexibility to shift to DH in the AL. Trading him (taking the emotion out of it - it would suck) would leave a huge void at 2B. the void is not a temporary one, so are you okay with Galvis as your 2B of the next 5 years or so?

Yeah, I mean, no one wants Amaro conducting this rebuild. His track record for evaluating talent is pretty dismal.

Even giving him credit for the good moves earlier in his tenure (which he absolutely should be given credit for), those moves were trading for Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, and Roy Oswalt, and signing Cliff Lee. Doesn't exactly take a scouting genius to figure out those guys are good at pitching baseballs.

tti: "What positions are you most worried about acquiring back in trades?"

I wouldn't value positions at all, just best players available and future payroll flexibility.

I would say first most glaring pc would be a corner outfield pc. If Cesar and Cody keep doing what they are doing. Bring them up after the fire sale. One 7-10 game winning streak is all they need. Sad part is they can't even put 3 in a row to get something started. Just so frustrating that's all. We are used to clean crisp and fun baseball. Now we get dumb and dumber.

Exactly, Jack. All of Ruben's positive moves were either stone cold no brainers or the product of signing a fat contract. That doesn't make Ruben any better than anyone on this blog.

Here's the big difference between this year and last year (to me, at least): It's April 26th I've already accepted the fact that this team isn't going anywhere this year. Last year, I was a believer until they were mathematically eliminated. I'm sure they're worse this year than they were last year, but I don't really notice it and it doesn't sting as much. You all would be wise to join me in my 'f#@k it' attitude.

b_a_p: My reasoning is fairly similar. Everybody bitched about the 8th inning woes last season, & to his credit r00b attempted to fix the problem by signing an actual, MLB-caliber pitcher. Let's face it, that was the ONLY obvious upgrade made to the entire roster. Of course one can argue health, contract, blah blah blah. My feeling is, he tried.

Now look at the offense. Pence & Vic are gone. In their places are a LHB who is only good as a PH, a RHB who is great for 1 month of the season & sucks the remaining 5, & the weakest -- literally, "weakest", as in "lacking strength" -- hitter I have ever seen, & that includes most starting pitchers.

Brown was moved to LF to accommodate the eventual arrival of a fat, injured, racist, & has been even worse than his thoroughly mediocre prior performance. Howard stinks. Utley & Rollins have been about equal parts beneficial, & straight-up, what the f*ck retarded. M. Young has been better than expected, but he's still old, immobile & filled to the brim w/ GIDPs that are simply dying to escape. The Catcher situation I place entirely on Chooch, so r00b avoids blame there.

Meanwhile, the Phillies have 2 hitting coaches -- well, 3 really, because you have to include noted hitting guru Charlie Manuel -- & this team still can't figure out how to get a base runner from 3B to Home Plate w/out making the first Out of the inning at Home Plate. The glaring lack of talent mixed w/ a shocking level of sheer stupidity is maddening to watch. Honestly, 2-16 w/ RISP? Bowa would've killed someone by now.

Point being, r00b blew his wad on SP, a "Closer" & Ryan Howard, then filled the rest of the roster w/ whichever turds hadn't yet sunk to the bottom of the bowl (&, in the case of D. Young, one which already had). No GM in the history of the franchise has been permitted to spend so much money, & somehow r00b has used that opportunity to purchase what appears to be a sub-.500 team. It's pitiful.

They'll have a couple winning streaks that will have them around .500 at some point in the next couple months. No doubt. This starting pitching is good enough that you're going to win some games.

The question is whether that's really a basis for predicting the team will stay hot the rest of the season and end up with 90 wins, or whether it's just a sign that you're still a .500 team at best, and you should still make whatever deals possible for the future.

The Red Sox were at .500 at the trade deadline last year. They still recognized their flaws, didn't mortgage the future, and then ended up making the huge deal in August to get rid of their veteran players and bad contracts. Something to keep in mind.

I think the Phillies would be wise to take notes on what Boston did last year. This team has one incredibly strong asset. The starting pitching. That is the only thing that keeps them afloat. The rest of the team is a complete s**tshow with some aging veterans mixed in. Your young talent is just not blossoming the way that it should so they need to get better younger players. Not just younger players. Legitimately good young players.

Based on April 26, 2013 - here is my "trade value" rankings for the Phillies. The rankings are blended between how much player is worth vs the desire of a team acquiring. Such as...Cole Hamels controlled for the next 5.5 years is the hands most valuable player on this roster, but the desire of teams to acquire such a commitment reduces that value.

#1. Chase Utley
#2. Cole Hamels
#3. Cliff Lee
#4. Jimmy Rollins
#5. Carlos Ruiz
#6. Roy Halladay
#7. Kyle Kendrick
#8. Michael Young
#9. Antonio Bastardo
#10. Domonic Brown

I would only list Papelbon, Revere, and Mike Adams as having any significant value at all. Howard, Mayberry, Nix, Kratz, DYoung, Galvis, rest of bullpen/bench have either 0 trade value or negative value.

Yeha they have played poorly and yeah they have had issues everywhere.

Don't see the point in cr@pping on other fans though or lamenting who will be sold/etc. It's still way too early for that.

If this team is still really playing awful in June and 7-8 games below .500, then yeah it will be time to start to speculate on who goes/who stays.

More immediate area of interest is Cholly. If this team continues to sink further downwards in the standings, I think he gets canned in May.

Not the main reason (or even the 2nd/3rd) this team is really struggling but he is a lame-duck manager who has been the wrong guy to manage this team for the past 2 years.

I do think Cholly is a below average/poor game-day manager and that he won't ever be able to push a mediocre team really overachieve. It isn't his managerial acumen.

I don't think Rollins holds more value than Halladay. Other than that I can get on board with your list. Although I'm not sure what the market is for a guy like Brown who can only drive the ball 200 feet in a bloop fashion. I guess someone could bank on a change of scenery as being worth it.

... they need to get better younger players. Not just younger players.

Or players named "Young".

The reason Manuel has to go is because I believe his message just isn't resonating anymore in the clubhouse. The hands off and lax approach has led to incredibly sloppy play on the field.

I would put Adams higher on that list. I suppose if Kendrick continues to pitch very well, he could be a strong asset to shop at the deadline, but I imagine Adams would draw more buyers.

Maybe I'm wrong, though.

joed: yea i could be swayed a few people.

I could easily be talked into making Hamels #1, I could see Doc having another 4-5 starts and shoot up the list - still a big ? around the league in my opinion. I could see moving Pap/Adams above DOM, but Adams falls into same category as Doc and Paps is just a ton of $$ for a reliever.

joe d - That's possible and I am guessing that what Cholly says doesn't resonate that much anymore with the players.

Jack: My main reason for having Adams below the top 10 is because of the uncertainty of his health still. Yea he's looked relatively good so far, but I don't think he's done enough on April 26 to change the minds of people around the league form the offseason.

Hamels is probably the only guy the Phillies would and should deem untradeable.

Considering how he's been pitching, Kendrick could be a nice mid-season pick-up for any number of teams. He might wind up being one of the most tradeable players on the roster.

Hamels is probably the only guy the Phillies would and should deem untradeable.

So he can fulfill his Schilling-like destiny as the one decent player on a series of increasingly awful teams ...

If someone wanted to pick up the bulk of Cole's contract I'd trade him, too.

lore - True on Doc...we need a few more starts to declare him completely back but the last few have a very nostalgic feel to them. If I'm a GM Brown doesn't move my radar in the slightest. He has no appeal in the AL because you won't DH him because he has zero pop. You would think the AL would be a good fit because he can't play the field but his lack of defense is not made up for by abundant power.

MG - Charlie is just out of his element. He no longer has a collection of superstars that he just needs to coddle and pat them on the ass every so often. He has to motivate and get a few guys to play over their heads. It's just not on his resume.

Joe D's analysis reminds me why I don't listen to sports talk anymore.

"It's a shame that some posters have turned what was good baseball discussion into personal vindictiveness and dumb banter."

Screw you, jackass! Oh wait...

My analysis on what Red?


"If someone wanted to pick up the bulk of Cole's contract I'd trade him, too."

I mean, I suppose if some team offered us a couple of top 100 prospects and a young, cost-controlled everyday player, I might consider it. But short of that, I don't see the point. Ace pitchers are the single most difficult commodity to find. If you've got one who's young & under team control for many years (for a lot of money, no doubt, but he's still ours), I wouldn't be trading him away for the sake of rebuilding. I'd be looking to that guy as the first key piece to the rebuilding process.

I don't think it is Charlie's message getting lost. I think it is just a team of guys playing sloppily. It isn't charlie's fault that Utley forgets how many outs there are in an inning, or that Rollins makes a dumb baserunning mistake or can't get a tag down.

On the guys to acquire- I agree the point is that you want the best guys back but then the thing is are you filling holes through free agency and if so- who is out there? I mean- say we wanted an outfielder back- is there a good young outfielder that could be had as opposed to relying on the free agency list.

Oh cool, Red. Solid contribution.

BAP: Completely agree on Cole. To me is a foundation piece for a rebuilding project unless he asks to be traded somewhere. He would be a nice guy to anchor a rotation, council the young guys, and be shut down when we need it.

Probably should have traded Hamels last season for Mike Olt and some dudes when they had the chance.

Joe - Better than faux anger. But keep on doing what you do. WIP analysis at its finest from you.

Ruben signed Adams, which was great. The other night aside, I think he'll be a good pitcher this season (and hopefully next) and won't blow too many games.

The problem is he didn't try to fix the rest of the bullpen, unless you count Durbin. He counted on Valdes and Horst to repeat their 2012, Aumont to take a big step forward, and Durbin to be a MLB-caliber pitcher to eat up some innings. There were various other, higher-quality pitchers available (that myself and MG were calling for the entire off season) that could've been acquired at a relative pittance. Instead, he didn't try.

I loved the Adams signing. Still love it. But that doesn't constitute 'trying' to improve the entire bullpen. There are still 3-4 guys that don't belong on a MLB roster. All he fixed, in theory, was one inning.

faux anger? Ok then. You keep on doing what you do. Which is apparently not wanting to engage in debate and discussion on a blog that specializes in debate and discussion.

The Adams signing is of course good. Ruben and Charlie operate on the perfect script all the time though. Even idiots like T-Mac get off to it when it plays out as follows:

-starter for 6
-Bastardo in the 7th
-Adams in the 8th
-Papelbon in the 9th

Now how many games are realistically going to play out like this over a 162 game season? The stars simply don't align like that. They really don't when you have so many holes such as piss poor defense and an inability to score runs.

When will we see DeFratus replace Aumont? I still like Aumont's stuff but I'm really starting to lose faith. How long can he try to justify the haul from that deal before giving in and going with DeFratus instead?

b_a_p: I suppose I should have added the caveat that I fully expect Monty & the rest of the idiot brigade to either leave r00b in place, re-hire Ed Wade (as GM), or some other act of institutional lunacy which would render the "rebuilding process" a 10-15 year endeavor ... in which case Hamels would be the proverbial lipstick on the pig until his contract expired.

Kendrick still has an arbitration year left for what its worth.

I agree with bap/others about Hamels. The odds of acquiring talent in return and acquiring talent with the freed up payroll to match what Hamels can give you over the next 5.5 seasons is so incredibly low.

Iceman: Kind of puts into perspective the idea of "let the young guys have control of the pen."

When other GMs trade a guy like Cliff Lee, they get four of the opposing organization's top prospects. When RAJ does it, he takes what's offered.

"When will we see DeFratus replace Aumont?"

I acknowledge Aumont has been terrible. But why wouldn't DeFratus replace Durbin or one of Horst/Valdes first?

If I am Amaro, there is only one untouchable piece in this organization and it is Cole Hamels. Everyone else is in play.

BobbyD: You're misremembering. Amaro rejected the first offering, and demanded Aumont.

BobbyD, stop being such a WIP caller.

Jack, Durbin can't be moved. He is a veteran and was on the 2008 team therefore he is terrific.

Joe: So you're saying he's destined to end up on the Nationals or Marlins?

Bobbyd: The Mariners attempted to trade Michael Saunders to the Phillies for Cliff Lee.

In 2012, Saunders was a 19hr/21sb 110 OPS+ CF/RF, but I can only imagine fans wanting him exiled from the city after he did this from age22-24:

.196/.263/.306 in 635 PA.

For context, DOM was also called up in his 22-24 age seasons:

.236/.315/.388 in 492 PA.

Ruben told FoxSports' Ken Rosenthal yesterday that he expects to keep payroll constant into the future because of how important filling the stadium is to their bottom line relative to other teams. The new TV deal will help offset that, but his quote felt naive, as if he dismissed the possibility of this team bleeding gate revenue and seeing it cut in half in 3 years or less. How the Phillies plan to deal with this is the crux of everything. Look at the Mets. They haven't made the playoffs since 2006. That's probably what we're looking at, unless we get very creative this deadline.

The ludicrous element of us pulling a Crawford/Gonzalez with Lee/Howard is that even if we could find an org crazy enough for Lee that they wanted Howard's deal, we still don't have the near ready ML talent to replace them. Boston already had Middlebrooks producing, and Bradley Jr. ready to step in. The closest we have to position players are Ruf and Asche, both of whom scouts, with consensus, grade as 40 role/bench players.

We're much closer to where the Mets were in 2006. Overmatched GM, bloated salary structure and an empty system. It's probably going to be uglier than we imagine so the only recourse I see, barring a major turnaround, is to unload any and every player we have, short of Hamels, and stockpile young players with upside. The larger the pool of potential, the higher the outcome is that any of them turn into above-average major leaguers.

Essentially yes Philli, that's what I'm saying.

I can't wait until we can start sh!tting on non-enhanced Carlos Ruiz.

Probably won't even slug over .400.

Ruiz will add a new dimension of something to get angry about.

cyclic: thats why we should trade now, i feel like he's being set up to fail.

This team is so bad right now, I'm gonna just keep watching every single game.

sneed: That's exactly why I'd dump Hamels (if possible), too. There's no way this team turns things around in the next 5 years, & I don't believe r00b's payroll claims for a second. As attendance goes, so will spending, & Monty will let the situation become much worse before really caring about getting better.

Class train wreck scenario for sure.

Yeah because Matthew Lawson, Blake Beavan, Josh Lueke and Justin Smoak are the building blocks of the Seattle Mariners.

Smoak fell flat on his face.

Just dispels the notion that Cliff Lee got bigger returns from other teams. The fact is that he didn't. Kinda weird actually. Wonder why a top pitcher didn't have one impact player traded for him.

Cholly doesn't need to yell/scream at players. I don't think that would make a difference & it could quickly become a poisonious environment.

I just don't see the players on this team (especially some of the veterans) really taking what he has to say with a lot of candor either.

I'm not asking for Charlie to yell and scream. I'm not asking for Larry Bowa all over again. I just want a guy who can be a motivator.

MIke Olt - .139/.235/.236 (.471 OPS) in 81 PAs for Round Rock of the PCL. Could you imagine if he was doing that for LV or Philly after being traded for Hamels or Lee last year as many advocated?

Total WAR a team has gotten by players received in a Cliff Lee Trade

Bartolo Colon: 2.4 bWAR
Donald/Marson/Carrasco/Knapp: 2.9 bWAR
Gillies/Aumont/Rameriz: 0.0 bWAR
Lawson/Beavan/Lueke/Smoak: 1.3 bWAR

How long has thefightins been back? Wow. A little ray of hope.

in conclusion, even if it was a great trade, Ruben still paid more for Cliff Lee than anyone else.

I'm not advocating firing Charlie Manuel, but there has been good results for other teams before when firing the manager in-season. Now would that work for the Phillies? I'm not so sure. It might have a reverse effect and the players play worse because they've had so much success under Chuck.

And in-house candidate Ryne Sandberg isn't a lock to be a better manager than UC as some believe. The only thing he's got going for him in the fans eyes' is the fact that he isn't Charlie Manuel.

Boston already had Middlebrooks producing, and Bradley Jr. ready to step in.

Sneed, do you mean Will "54OPS+" Middlebrooks and Jackie "Pawtucket" Bradley, Jr.? :)

Just chain-pullin' a bit. Bradley may not quite be ready though.

gtown: while we're all entitled to our opinions, your view that the Phillies will be god awful for decades no matter what the ownership/FO do because everyone is so stupid makes your 'input' on what decisions should be made just a tad bit useless.

Lore, I think you need to subtract Grady Sizemore's WAR and Brandon Phillips' WAR from Colon's to be accurate.

And you forgot to include Ben Francisco's -1.6 WAR "contribution".

"Just dispels the notion that Cliff Lee got bigger returns from other teams. The fact is that he didn't. Kinda weird actually."

I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but there's actually nothing weird about it at all. All it tells us is that top prospects very often don't pan out. Justin Smoak was Baseball America's 13th rated prospect at the time of the Cliff Lee trade. He hasn't panned out at all, but his value, at the time of the trade, was far greater than the value of Gillies, Aumont and/or Ramirez at the time they were traded.

People that want Manuel gone just want change for the sake of change. We don't know if Sandberg is going to be better. No one knows that. What we do know however is that Manuel is not the guy to lead this team anymore and he definitely isn't the guy on a lame duck deal.

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EST. 2005

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