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Tuesday, March 12, 2013


FWIW, mid-game threads kinda suck.

Can I be worried about Halladay now?

Not offering excuses, but Halladay did say after his last outing that he was experiencing a bit of dead arm. Could've had an effect on his performance today.

Or perhaps this is the new Halladay. FIne performances sprinked with clunkers.

Really nice diving play by Howard. He looks spry.

"Or perhaps this is the new Halladay. FIne performances sprinked with clunkers."

That wouldn't explain the exhaustion or the Aumont-esque wildness.

Mid-game threads suck big-time and I can't imagine they really increased web site visits in a major way.

Maybe just a cheap way to increase page views.

RedBurb, if Halladay is throwing 84-85, the new Halladay is going to be closer to:

Clunkers sprinkled with fine performances, sprinkled with DL trips.

Gelb is right too. Most of the 'positivity' of the ST just got sucked away.

We have Aaron Cook, though, so we should be ok.

After praising Young's great play early on, he had trouble with a pop foul down the third base line towards the stands and failed to make the catch.

At least the fans will still come out to see Ryan Howard and buy his t-shirt jerseys. Right?


Sarge is atrocious.

Kyle losche is still on the market

Fata - That was only one scout. Other scouts were saying 86-88. Until that number is the rule rather than the exception, I think he was in the 86-88 range.

I have reached my Sarge 'safe exposure limit' for the day. Audio time.

I would love to see a list of TV color guys in MLB but he has to be bottom 5. Besides the fact that he seems like an affable guy, he's a zero.

Yes, it's true. Another scout had Halladay up to 88 on his gun.

Still not the low 90s we want to see Doc throwing, but 88 is a lot better than 84.

BAP (last thread): "Complete speculation on my part, but it makes me wonder if he's got some sort of undiagnosed medical condition. Not an injury but a medical condition."

Not really going to go into specifics here, because I have virtually no knowledge of medical-related issues (despite working in the medical insurance field) or diagnosing anything beyond a common cold. But a good friend of mine who is a medical professional has been convinced since early last year that this is exactly the case.

He is very specific about what he thinks is wrong, and I continue to think it's a far-fetched notion. But I am starting to wonder. Part of me wonders how much of the idle speculation is based on how otherworldly he was here for two years, and how hard it is to reconcile that with what we are seeing now, confirming that he is, in fact, human. Yet another part of me has seen pitcher's 'lose it' overnight before, and it has never looked like this, to me. It isn't just his stuff that's gone. It's his stamina, his endurance. You would think the guy never conditions, and yet he is a physical specimen that trains year-round like he runs decathlons.

Maybe he did have a heat stroke. I don't know. I'd like to think I can be objective about these things, but I'm starting to lean more and more towards this position that I once thought to be outlandish.

So Halladay was out pitched by Drew "Guy" Smyly. Big deal. I read in an earlier thread that ST games and stats don't count. At all.

Ok, Salisbury is saying that he topped out at 87. That is troubling that his velocity has dropped in every start this spring.

You guys can really be a trip sometimes, complaining about mid-game threads.

It isn't a ploy for pageviews. It's "Roy Halladay struggled big-time and that is more important than anything else that will happen in this game, so we're posting about it now."

Understand it maybe broke up conversations being had in the previous thread. But how is that a big deal? Come on...

"Kyle losche is still on the market"

Sadly, this is exactly what I was thinking. But if Doc is broken, I don't think Lohse will make the difference. At least not to the point of spending the money and the draft pick to get him.

The time to upgrade the rotation was December, and they instead chose to sign Lannan. The team basically has to live with that choice now, for better or worse.

Iceman - Kind of a poor spoof/parody of what I would post.

I would have to go back and look at what the Phils specifically said with Halladay's injury when he was shut down last year in Sept and Halladay's press conference at the start of spring training where he talked about his injury a bit.

I don't remember that much being disclosed though accept some very basic level information.

"Understand it maybe broke up conversations being had in the previous thread. But how is that a big deal? Come on..."

Completely agree, although there may have been some who found our discussion about the off-sides rule in soccer to be riveting stuff.

84-86 vs. 86-88 still doesn't change my point.

If Halladay is TOPPING OUT at 87 or 88, then he is not fully recovered from his injury.

Don't forget folks, the man is 36 and has thrown nearly 2700 innings in his career.

MG- if I was trying to spoof your post it would be better quality than that. I was unfortunately being completely serious.

Does anyone have any idea what his velocity was in previous outings?

I'm interested to what Doc will say postgame. Hopefully he won't downplay it too much.

Corey: If it's something you guys will do regularly, it's something the regular folks on Beerleaguer will have to get used to.

Until this year, there were no mid-game threads, even in spring training.

I don't think people look to Beerleaguer for the latest news so there's never been great urgency for new threads like this. In the past, it generally could wait until the game was over.

J.R. King: I don't think Halladay has hit 90 yet this spring. But generally a pitcher adds a few MPH to velocity as the spring moves along and, at the least, Doc has failed to do that.

Doc topping out at 87-88 is a very very very bad indicator of his health...regardless of the canine/equine extravaganza they pull after the game to say he's healthy.

Also, Kyle Lohse wouldn't provide what we need anyway as he's not a healthy Doc.

I didn't see that homerun but, on Gameday, it practically landed off my computer screen.

***Understand it maybe broke up conversations being had in the previous thread. But how is that a big deal? Come on...***

Why not just wait till the game is over and do the standard post-game thread with that as the topic always worked before.

Corey: Most of the people who break your balls on here regularly do it for one reason....they're jealous of you.

Horst with another solid outing. 1.1 perfect innings with a K.

Diekman, on the other hand, gave up 2 runs on 2 hits, including a HR. he did strike out 2 in his inning.

***I didn't see that homerun but, on Gameday, it practically landed off my computer screen.***

It actually landed at my desk in upstate at least I have a nice souvenir.

KAS: I hear ya. Just a spring training thing.

Here is a quick synopsis of Halladay's recent injury history:

Sept 25, 2012 - Halladay was knocked around and was dealing with tightness in his right shoulder and shoulder blade

Source: Zolecki (Twitter)

Feb. 13, 2013 - Undisclosed back injury which was origin of his shoulder issues last year. Altered his offseason program to compensate including lower core strengthening and improved stretching.

Source: Gelb (Twitter) and

Feb. 24, 2013 - Was 88-91 MPH on the gun according to Salisbury after his first ST appearance:

Source: article by Salisbury

March 1, 2013 - Again was at 88-91 on the gun after his 2nd ST start

Source: (Matt Gelb)

March 7, 2013- Was at 86-88 MPH on the gun topping out at 89 MPH.

Source: (David Murphy blog)

i got to watch a half inning of the game today. Michael Young got turned around, stumbled, and dropped a foul popup.

I don't see what value a mid-game thread has. Count me as one of the "nays".

Also had a question for those who have watched more than I. How has Utley looked this spring? I see he's only hitting .160 but I know he doesn't play in all the games.

Todd Zolecki:

"One scout said his velocity hit just 86-88 mph on the radar gun; Other reports had ... Halladay’s fastball a mile-or-two less than that.

That is going in the opposite direction of where he started. He sat in the 89-91 mph range in his first two Grapefruit League starts. He sat in the 86-88 mph in his third before his fourth start today. Halladay has said he can pitch with lesser velocity, but looking at the numbers it’s obvious he didn’t have any command, either."

Iceman - I have never posted half of the crap you had in the earlier post and plenty of pitcher's 'lose it overnight' unfortunately due to injury.

***Corey: Most of the people who break your balls on here regularly do it for one reason....they're jealous of you.***

To be fair, its the first time I ever complained about anything like that.

Corey's fine although I just don't prefer the mid-game updates. That's all.

Velocity is a concern, but if Doc's a guy who sits at 88-90, he can still be a very good pitcher because he's got a grasp of multiple pitches, many that can be weapons.

Today, his control was nowhere to be found. If he's hurt which has affected both is velocity and control, that's obviously a BIG deal.

His next outing will tell us an awful lot about where Doc is for 2013.

Zero control and a drop in velocity are big red flags.

It definitely bears watching.

Speaking of Chase...

Someone asked about Chase?

Two run bomb to RF.

KAS-- assuming there IS a "next outing"...

Chase should just do that every time so he doesn't have to run the bases and stress his knees.

Man, look at that big piece slide.

Howard nearly goes back to back and then dives into 2nd base head first just ahead of the throw for a double.

Actually a crazy slide from Howard I've never seen.

Like I said, he looks spry.

How was the Utley HR? Was it a classic short swing, pulled to RF?

Well, let's hope 2006 Howard is back.

Because if Halladay is going to look like 2012 Doc, we're going to need 2006 Howard, and 2007 Utley.

Wow, just saw the highlight of the Utley groundout to score Revere. Damn, that speed.

looks like diekman has smoothed out his delivery, with a very repeatable release point.

Looks like we can pencil in Aumont and Horst for the 5th and 6th BP slots. 7th spot looks to be totally up for grabs.

But whoever it is who just misses out and is the '8th' man better stay ready. Its just a matter of time until Chad Qua, er I mean, Durbin fails.

Did anybody else watching on MLB.TV suddenly have an audio outage, or is it just my terrible work computer up to its old tricks?

For any watching, don't they usually have Greg Murphy interview the starting pitcher after he comes out? I'm guessing that didn't happen today?

So, who here expects Doc to suddenly regain his form? Anyone?

Might just be that we have a former ace at the back of the rotation playing out the end of his career. Certainly not all that I hoped for, but I can live with that.

Still, we might just have to deal with the fact that we have the right handed equivalent of a post-1985 Steve Carlton.

Cyclic: Classic Utley HR. Short swing. Drilled over the wall. Out in a hurry.

Lets see what next start or two brings for good doc. Plenty of pitchers going out there with dead arm now. Jordan z was latest too have it. Throw a small flag up not the surrender flag haha

Re Doc: Until proven otherwise, I'm going with The hook's approach.

Jermaine Mitchell with a hustle double. Detroit LF must have figured there was no way he'd go for two. Mitchell showing good speed.

Thanks, KAS. Nice to hear.

The Phillies really ought to give a longer look to Jermaine Mitchell. Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . oldish prospect, I know. But it's not like the Phillies are overflowing with outfield options. They thought enough of him to invite him to spring training & he has looked good whenever he has played. Give him some starts.

Halladay said he was "lethargic, very lethargic." Said extra day of rest factored in, he threw a second side session between starts.

Was it smart for him to go out there on short rest after his side session?

Let's not forget Grenke is having "soreness" and problems as well.

Valdez with the 3 IP 1H 0BB 0R 4K line. I love the lefty depth we have in our BP.

The game ended 2 minutes ago. Where's the new thread?

Valdez for long man?

Looking like we may have 3 lefties in the pen this year.

Paps, Adams, Bastardo, Aumont, Horst, Durbin, Valdes

De Fratus heads back to AAA awaiting the first injury or the Durbin blow up, whichever comes first.

'Very lethargic' = season saved

Maybe Halladay was working on his changeup today?

MG- I want to reiterate that I wasn't trying to mock you with any post. Not sure what you're referencing exactly. Everything I've said about Halladay, and having a friend in the medical profession who believes there's something beyond 'getting older' wrong with him, is 100% serious. I think you'd know at this point if I was trying to spoof you, I'd admit to doing it.

And as for the 'I was legthargic' stuff, pardon me while I don't believe a word he's saying. Halladay has reached 'The Lidge Zone' with talking about injuries. He's not believable as long as the results are what they are, and when he has to go out of his way to say he feels fine, it usually means something is not fine.

I'm one of Halladay's biggest fans and basically thought he could do no wrong before last season, but when it comes to his health, the only thing I'll believe is what the results (how he looks, not necessarily the box score) tell me.

I hear Schilling needs cash.

Halladay is going through a so-called "dead arm" period. Said period is set to extend through the remainder of his career.

I just hope Chase Utley's moisture-proof bubble is ready in time for Opening Day.

I think Beerleaguer posters are perfectly right to make sweeping assessments of the season and Halladay based on March 12 in Spring Training. Can't see any flaws in that way of thinking.

Figures that Gtown would show his face at the first bad sign. Nice to see you keep up your tired schtick.

clout: Obviously Halladay both has serious arm, back and shoulder injuries that require surgery as well as a serious medical condition related to heat and/or cold that will kill him on the mound if he pitches in the wrong weather.

We should all be worried.

KAS and clout are right on the money.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to be concerned.

How vapid and naive of us.

Now's the time to start your cybernetic enhancement petition, Fata--we can't afford to miss a beat this season.

Muuurgh, I've already submitted that petition to the IOC and the POTUS.

Fatalotti: You don't think it's ridiculous some of the speculation regarding Halladay?

Of course we need to be concerned, but Beerleaguer excels at exaggeration when there is just the hint that something can be wrong.

But by all means, save your sarcasm for those mocking the hysteria.

Clout: What did you think about people being concerned regarding Halladay's health last spring?

Or Chase Utley's health the spring before that when he didn't start playing?

I've beaten the drums louder than anyone on "Spring Training stats don't matter." But health does matter. So if a guy who normally throws 92 is throwing 86, yeah, that's a red flag. Sorry, but it is.

There is a huge reason to be concerned but Halladay although I thought he looked good last time out even with the slight dip in velocity.

He wasn't in clear physical discomfort/pain either which was pretty evident by the 2nd inning today.

Just hope it was a flareup with his back that can be treated with some rest & adjustments.

Yes. The concern on Halladay is entirely based on today's start. It's not like it's been a year's worth of poor performance and progressively diminishing velocity.

I don't think there's reason to believe that season=over, but no one can blame people for being very concerned.

BAP: I like Jermaine Mitchell a lot as well.

He's sort of a TTO (three true outcomes) hitter, but without power. Meaning he walks a lot and strikes out a lot, and doesn't hit for much power.

Frankly, on this team, I think that's fine. I agree that for all the hand-wringing about the lack of a 5th OF, he may fit the role perfectly. I don't see why you wouldn't give him a chance, when the other options are Ender Incarciate or Yuniesky Betancourt.

KAS, there's been a bit of speculation, but no one has claimed that they're speculation is concrete, or that they know what's going on with Halladay.

It's a blog, and people have surmised what might be wrong with Halladay based on the information that they have available to them.

But please, by all means, mock those who are interested in the Phillies and concerned about the health of the linchpin to the team's 2013 success.

Fatalotti: More than one person has given a dissertation on the fact that Halladay must have an undiagnosed medical condition.

If that's not worthy of mocking... well... I'm on the wrong site.

one scout said halladay's fastball topped out around 49-50mph. it's ok though because his change-up is coming in at 20-25.

re: last thread

Whens the last time the Phils broke camp with the standard 5 OF, 6 INF, 2 C, 5 SP, 7 RP? I'm sure its happened before, but I don't recall any. I see the camp battles isolated to:

Ender/Ruf/Mitchell for 5th OF.
Yuni/Galvis for backup SS
Valdes/Defratus for reliever.

*didn't break camp with the standard

KAS, get off it.

BAP, Iceman and MG (I think) claimed that based on what Halladay has been going through, he MIGHT have an undiagnosed medical condition.

I know it's fun to distort the truth and all, but that's clout's territory here.

Fatalotti: Sure, man. Whatever. I didn't realize that some ridiculous speculation is not to be mocked.

That's my last word on the matter.

Can we get Iceman's buddy on here to give us an actual diagnosis on this undiagnosed medical condition? Then we'll really have something to work with.

lorecore: It's interesting that Mitchell is still here while others are gone, but I find it hard to believe he's in actual competition for that last spot.

Other than that, I think your analysis of the remaining fights is spot on.

Roy Halladay has osteoarthritis in his shoulder and the Phils are trading for Soriano.

Roy Halladay has osteoarthritis in his shoulder and the Phils are trading for Soriano.

Posted by: dpat's source | Tuesday, March 12, 2013 at 05:26 PM

Now we're talking!

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