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Monday, February 25, 2013


Stutes was pretty crappy even before the injury caused him to miss an entire season.

Stutes was overworked in 2011 and his career will likely never be the same. Charlie did his best Dusty Baker impersonation with him. It was clear in September of 2011 that he was running on fumes.

He only threw 72 innings in a 24 year old.

Nice eye on Inciarte, and that grab in the outfield was very slick. Not a bad rule 5 pick, if we can avoid giving up too much to keep him.

Joe D: Stutes threw 76.1 innings in 53 games in 2010 and 72 innings in 64 games in 2011 when he was "overworked."

Stutes threw 72 innings in 2011, after having thrown 76 in 2010 and 145 the year prior. Overworked, my ass. He's a fungible reliever who got hurt, as most pitchers do get hurt.

Charlie didn't overwork him.

Well he wasn't overworked but he was one of the only arms Charlie could rely on and by September of 2011 he looked done to me. At that point they continued to still run him out there.

It's funny how we only seem to notice that a pitcher was overworked, after he comes down with an injury

Alternative explanation: He pitched above his ability for a couple of months but started to get hammered in Aug/Sept (to the tune of a 4.44 ERA with poor peripherals) once teams got a book on him. Stutes was simply never that good.

Ouch. Cody, you're at least supposed to be better at D than Michael Young...

Stutes said he was over anxious and was overthrowing. I wouldn't take away much from his first outing at all given it was the first time he was on the mound in an actual game in 10 months.

NEPP, that's more accurate. I just remember him beginning to get lit up but Charlie just kept going back to him.

Stutes' struggles have me worried. Perhaps rube can reacquire Schwimer; a package of, say, Art Charles and an expendable arm should do it.

What's the record for errors in a season?

I didn't enter this spring thinking Stutes was going to make the team anyway.

Schwimer trade is exactly how I felt about the Valdez trade last spring.

It wasn't a big deal that they moved Schwimer. He's a mediocre MLB middle reliever at best with so-so command.

It was the simple fact that the Phils have little/no depth at the RHP reliever spot though organizationally right now at the upper levels.

Its Stutes and then a lot of flotsam like Rosenberg. Last year after they moved Valdez it was Mini Mart & Galvis.

Amaro turned out to be 100% right about Valdez who was horrible last year for the Reds & he got a useful prospect in return. The issue was that Amaro traded away something that took away depth from a very limited pool already.

Is Schwimer tweeting about Stutes' peformance yet?

I think he's too busy tracking down autographs sellers on Ebay to bother, Joe.

MG: I think Schwimmer's PIARLRP is in the negatives, so trading him away is no big deal.

(PIARLRP=Postive Innings Above Replacement Level Relief Pitcher)

MG: Yep, and,, obviously they traded a guy who has pitched in the majors for someone who will start an entry-level sales position very soon. I thought they'd use him as a throw-in to get a trade done this winter, but I didn't imagine they'd just dump him for nothing.

Papelpoodle got baked today. Stutes sucked. Valdes wasn't valiant.

Season = OVER!

They should've kept Schwimer!

My agent tells me I need to get more visibility in the media. His suggestions: before my at-bats, call my shot by pointing to the outfield (in the unlikely event I get the ball out of the infield) and when I am playing "versatile" CF, swipe at the ball as as catch it (assuming, of course, I actually do...)

NEPP - Stutes isn't that good. He's yet another Phils' reliever who has a fastball in the low 90s with mediocre/poor command and no MLB-caliber offspeed pitches.

"What's the record for errors in a season?"

Dunno, but I betcha I can top it!

Can minimart pitch?

Mini Mart update:

I loved how he came up charging the ball in the 4th inning and deciding instead of trying to hit the cutoff man (Betancourt) to hold up the runner he guns it home.

Ball skips 4 times in the infield grass with the runner scoring easily and the baserunner taking an extra base because Mini Mart didn't hit the cutoff man.

Mini Mart is a terrible player but the thing that infuriates me about him is that he is just such a stupid player who makes so many poor decisions with almost zero fundamentals.

He's the worst player to put on a Phils' uniform in a while.

Robin Roberts threw 315 IP as a 24-year-old.

"He's the worst player to put on a Phils' uniform in a while."

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Papelbon is the type of pitcher that should be prone to this type of outing in spring.

That being said, I'm terrified that eventually his injury-free history is going to catch up to him. Very few pitchers are able to sustain this type of durability over such a long period of time.

As for Stutes...I mean, the bar should be really low on the expectations for him. He had 29 innings in the majors after he was called up where he pitched to a 2.45 ERA with over a K per IP, only 2 HR and a 2:1 K/BB ratio (hitters had a BABIP of .210).

In his next 32 IP he had a 4.65 ERA with under 8 K/9, 5 HR, with hitters having a .293 BABIP. He followed that up by getting bombed last year while pitching hurt and is pitching his first innings coming off of shoulder surgery.

Taking the injury out of the equation, the hopes really shouldn't be high for Stutes. He had a limited run of success, and some good fortune during that run. Taking the shoulder surgery into account, and anything out of him on the MLB roster this year should be considered found money.

I get the feeling that by the end of Spring, we're going to understand why the Durbin signing was made. I understand not everyone was happy with the choice, but the extra veteran arm was certainly needed.

NEPP: "Stutes was simply never that good."

All the scouting reports I read on him as a prospect agree with that assessment. Fringe prospect, ceiling was middle relief.

Funny how Papelbon runs his mouth about leadership, then comes out and gets lit up.

MG- "He's the worst player to put on a Phils' uniform in a while."

Is the threshold just putting on a uniform, or is it a prolonged amount of PT?

If it's just putting on the uniform, you'd have a hard time making a case for anyone other than Pete LaForest.

Stutes is basically interchangeable with Rosenberg too.

Rosenberg throws slightly hard and has a terrible slider (hanger that is flat) and a below-average changeup.

Stutes has less fastball velocity but has slightly better command and a somewhat better slider.

Iceman - He was here and gone in a blink of an eye. I would set the bar at a player who had at least more than a cup of coffee over 2-3 years.

LaForest put up a -13 OPS for the Phils and managed a -0.2 WAR while getting no time in the field. One single and 2 walks in 13 PAs.

So if you extrapolated that and gave him 150 ABs as a pinch hitter over a season, he'd have under a -2.0 WAR without even seeing the field.

Overall, LaForest had a -0.7 WAR over 68 games in 4 seasons (3 teams). He had a negative oWAR and dWAR. Martinez has a -0.4 WAR for the Phils, but has played in almost twice as many games and PAs as LaForest and actually has a positive dWAR.

Mini-Mart > Pete LaForest (though it's closer than I thought before I looked at the numbers)

MG- fair enough. I'll keep digging.

To calculate LaForest's "suck quotient," you need to make an adjustment for the fact that all backup catchers are awful.

I always thought R.J. Swindle ranked pretty high on the "Worst Phillie to Ever Put on a Uniform" list -- especially since he actually generated a certain level of intrigue at the time of his call-up.

Of course, in fairness to R.J. Swindle, his 12.71 career ERA was probably the result of some bad luck. His career FIP is only 8.58.

Hahaha Swindle...I remember all the hoopla surrounding him when he came up.

MG: That's my impression, too. His slider is slightly above average. If he can command his fastball, he can manage in the majors.

"Mini-Mart > Pete LaForest"

*Swagger*. Oh crap, I thought you said "Pete Rose!" Dang...

BPro has 1 Phillie in the their top 101 and they wonder if Biddle isn't too high at 67 at the end of the article.

My, oh my, there are a lot of signs pointing to a mid-decade debacle, aren't there?

I think that the phenomenon that is Mini Mart's suckitude is actually a somewhat complex two-part dynamic resulting in almost universal vitriol and loathing.

The first, and very simple part, is that he has no business whatsoever being employed to play major league baseball, and probably is even miscast as a minor league ballplayer as well.

The second, and far more confounding, aspect of the whole ordeal is that he simply KEEPS GETTING MLB PLAYING TIME! There is not a single human being alive who has a valid rationale for this, either. I actually think somewhere after the Rule 5 requirement, RAJ came around to just trolling the entire fan base, just for his own sh8ts and giggles. I mean, it's absolutely unexplainable.

Anyway, the recipe is one part suck (which is straightforward), to several parts inexplicable continued overuse. It's probably more apt to state that Mini Mart is the least deserving player ever to wear the Phillies uniform when accounting for the duration of time in which he did exactly that.

At least LaForest and Swindle showed their a88 and were promptly shown the door.

MG- quick Fangraphs search with players over 300 PAs in the last 100 Phillies seasons finds this bottom 10 with WAR:

1) George Scharein
2) Tommy Thevenow
3) Del Young
4) Ted Kazanski
5) Jimmy Ring
6) Chile Gomez
7) Goldie Rapp
8) Kim Batiste
9) Chris Short
10) Putsy Caballero

To narrow it down, bottom 10 just in my lifetime (since 1984):

1) Batiste
2) Terry Mulholland
3) No-Hit Nunez
4) Desi Relaford
5) Kevin Jordan
6) Wendell Magee
7) Bruce Ruffin
8) Bob Dernier
9) Dom Brown
10) Mini-Mart

I think putting this into context, you have to give the nod to Batiste. He had a 2.0% walk rate, 17.5% K-rate, and had a -3.4 WAR in his last two seasons here (350 PAs). He hit .234/.250/.318.

The only positive value he had in any of tools that Fangraphs rates- Batting, Base Running, Fielding- was his fielding in 1991 when he played in 10 games. Every other value rating in every other year was in the negative. He had a -4.3 WAR for his career.

Mini-Mart, while a big negative with the bat, is rated as a positive base-runner and defender. Batiste was far worse.

Wendell Magee. Terrific. Where did Rob Ducey come in at?

I'll never forget when Swindle threw his 58mph curve in his first appearance. David Wright basically statred laughing before he even started his leg kick. Ball hit the seats before the camera shot even got to switch to the OF.

I rememeber that too lore. Wright took a hot dump on that pitch.

So, apparently, is Dom, according to that list. Well, maybe not far worse...

I didn't remember Wright was the first batter he ever faced, makes it even funnier. To my surprise, Swindle settled down after that inning and pitched 2 perfect innings afterwards.

Pretty good box score. Classic Mets/Phillies back then - Mets have huge lead and their bullpen tries their hardest to cough it back up. This one came up just short.

"Robin Roberts threw 315 IP as a 24-year-old."

clout, yes he did.

Ironically, Roberts is IMHO a classic case of a pitcher being overused by his team (because they mostly stunk). He led the league in IP for 5 straight seasons through age 28, was used as a strter and reliever, and his performance was erratic thereafter.

He was the best pitcher in baseball for that 5 season stretch (finished in the top 7 in MVP voting for 4 of those 5 years ((13th in the other)) and that included a bunch of guys who were around with names like Spahn, Ford, Lemon and Newcombe.

I often wonder how his career would have turned out if he had been on a good team during those years instead of one that was mediocre at best, and probably would not have been that without his presence on the mound.

4) Ted Kazanski

Whoa! The Unabomber was a Phillie!!?!?!

No wonder he sucked. He always skipped batting practice to work on his manifesto.

"Can minimart pitch?"

At least as well as I hit or field...

My guess would have been Bobby Wine to rack up the most negative value, since he stuck around so long, but i guess fangraphs likes his defense too much. A career 55 OPS+ hitter piled up 3500 PA in his career, thats a feat in and of itself.

Only two players in MLB history have more PA than Bobby Wine with an OPS+ lower than his 55:

Tommy Thevenow: 51 OPS+ in 4483 PA
Hal Lanier: 50 OPS+ in 3940 PA.

MG- "He's the worst player to put on a Phils' uniform in a while."

Challenge Accepted!

Im not to worried yet about Stutes. His first outing after surgery of course he is going to be rusty.

Iceman - Terry Mulholland?! I would definitely consider Eaton or Ashby on that list who were nothing short of disasters here. Eaton should be a Top 3 on any list of the past 30 years.

One name that instantly comes to mind to me is Jeff Brantley. He was completely done by the time he end up here and was a complete standoffish dick to the media & fans to boot.

Wow. Go back and read that game thread (July 7, 2008) if you want to have a good laugh and waste 15 minutes. That was the thread, coincidentally, that coined this famous phrase from PhillR, while arguing we should trade Vic for Burnett:

Victorino does not help this team offensively. He is below average in every meaningful stat but steals. He actively hurts the team. Odds are whoever they found via farm system trade would be better and would make up for the 10-12 runs a year in prevention he gives in the OF. Not to mention the rotation gains a true power pitcher.

Posted by: PhillR | Monday, July 07, 2008 at 09:06 PM

Stutes hasn't pitched a healthy inning since Sept. 2011, essentially. Lots of rust there I'm sure, more than the other guys. I highly doubt he's making the cut out of spring training anyway. There's very little to lose by keeping him in LV as your next in line.

The little storyline I don't quite buy is that Aumont is fighting for a spot along with the likes of Stutes, Rosenberg, Valdes, De Fratus. In my view dating to last season, he's in your bullpen end of discussion.

Last thought. I watch Ruf, Brown, Mayberry and whomever else they toss into the corners and I begin to wonder if Inciarte has a shot as the 25th man and defensive caddy to all these brutal outfielders. That's a better use of a roster spot than pretending that Mini Mart contributes in any facet of the game.

Hamels, Doc, and Lee all look great. And so does Howard. I couldn't care less about Stutes and Schwimer. Papelbon would have to stink all spring for it to raise concerns. Mini-mart's continued presence is a complete mystery.

I think Aumont would have to have a bad spring to not make the team. Really bad. They like what he did last year, and I don't expect the other guys mentioned by JW to outplay him to such an extent to take his spot.

Will I ever be able to change my name to Michael Martinez Was (*) Here?

* Emphasis on "Was."

Weitzel lives!

I agree about Aumont. The only question I have is about what role Horst will play. If he is the 2nd lefty, they need a long-man. Maybe Lopez sneaks in there with a good spring.

If they go with Valdes as the 2nd lefty, then Horst is the long-man.

Leaves the bullpen looking something like this:

1 opening which I think in large part depends on what role Horst is given. De Fratus and Valdes are at the top of what is a pretty short list that includes a bunch of names though includes Robles, Diekman, Savery, Rosenberg, and a few others.

I meant viable candidates. I would add Stutes to the list but he is behind De Fratus and Valdes at this point.

Terry Mulholland most definitely doesn't fit with the rest of the names on that list. The guy had 4 straight solid years with the Phillies, won 16 games once, and has a career Phillies record of 62-57 with a 99 ERA+.

Good postings today...made me laugh. Nothing brings BLers together like hatred for Mini-Mart.

The advantage for the last BP spot will go to an innings eater. In that sense, Rosenberg might actually be a front runner. It's certainly not Stutes at this juncture.

Ruf hit the ball hard his first time up on the ground right at the 3B. Then he got hit with runners on 2nd and 3rd his next time up (which preceded the Ruiz GIDP).

But lets focus on the 3rd AB, where he struck out on 3 pitches.

There were actually some hard hit balls today, that were right at fielders. Even Mini Mart hit a line drive right at the RF in his 1st AB. Ruf, Mini Mart, Young, Mayberry and Asche all had hard hit outs.

Mini Mart's throw to home was laughably weak. Even Happy Tom McCarthy made fun of it.

Not sure why the angst from some over bad performances (and why anyone would get real excited for good ones either). Its game 3 of ST. Lets get a grip here.

JW - That is why I like Lopez as a real darkhorse candidate with a good spring. This team is going to need a swing man to eat innings with a Halladay who won't spare the pen every 5 days and KK/Lannan in the rotation.

You make a good point about Rosenberg especially since he is on the 40-man roster already & has been a starter recently. Just really sucks and I hope the Phils don't take a dreg over someone who actually might help the team like a Valdes or De Fratus.

One other minor note:

- Galvis looked like he was ranging well and covering a lot of ground today. I am curious to see how he looks this spring given that he is coming off a fairly serious back injury.

I screwed up with that list. I left pitchers on it when it only is rating their batting, defense and base-running. Mulholland should be eliminated.

Oddly enough, the guy on the list behind Mini-Mart (since 1984)? Bruntlett. And they both have exactly 356 PAs right now as Phillies.

Gnome: .202/.273/.278- 2HR, 22RBI, 11 SB, -0.8 WAR
Mini-Mart: .188/.241/.272- 5HR, 31RBI, 3 SB- -0.8 WAR

Batiste was worse than both. Gnome checked in with a positive base-running value and Mini has (though small) a positive defensive value. Batiste has negative value in every phase of the game, and had -3.5 WAR between two seasons. I'm not sure you can get much worse than that. His walk rate for the Phils was less than 2%.

Pigginton and Helms are also in the bottom 20 of the last 28 years when it comes to WAR.

Someone needs to write an expose on the Mini-Mart affair. The Phillies have given a roster spot the last two seasons to one of the worst players to ever grace their field.

If he spends most of this year on the roster, he'll be arb eligible next year! He would be a Super-Two player, which is the sort of thing you just can't even believe until...well, actually you just can't believe it at all.

Even though nothing counts in ST,was a manager ever fired before the season started. Just wishful thinking.

Dontrelle Willis threw 7 pitches in a game today and left with an injury.
I don't know why but I have always rooted for him when he wasn't pitching against the Phillies. I hope it is nothing serious and he still has a chance to catch on some where. But I do not think it is likely, even before the injury.

I think some quantifier needs to be added to the Mini-Mart "suck quotient" in that he not only has amassed a great deal of playing time during his Phillies tenure, but somehow fell ass-backwards into a stupefying 234 plate appearances during the Phillies all-time winningest season in 2011.

That truly boggles the mind.

Kim Batiste's 1994 season- wow. I certify this is the worst overall season by a platoon and/or full time guy in the past 25 years. And it was strike shortened!

.234/.239/.278/.517 with 1 SB/1 CS, 1 HR and 13 RBI in 214 PA (64 games- 56 starts).

He had a 32:1 K/BB ratio. Yes, that's right- he walked one time. 7 XBH and 11 GIDP.

One would think that, since he started half the games for the Phillies that season, he brought something to the table OTHER than hitting. Wrong. He had 9 errors in 36 starts at 3rd, and 3 errors in 14 starts at SS. He had a -8.0 fielding value according to Fangraphs. And along with a paltry one stolen base, he had a -0.2 base-running value. This was all good for a -19.1 RAR (runs above replacement) and a -1.9 WAR overall- in just 115 games. B-R has him at a -2.1 WAR.

In 1995, he played for the Giants and put up a -1.5 WAR in just 136 PA (54 games). If he had that season with the Phils, he would be a top candidate for the worst player ever to put on a uniform in the city of Philadelphia.

Batiste was certainly wretched (both at the plate and in the field), but:

1. The Phillies, as a team, were wretched back then;

2. In the one year where the Phillies were good, Batiste was actually decent;

3. Batiste wasn't stealing a roster spot from a better player, the way Mini-Mart has been doing for the last 2 years; and

4. Batiste's career OPS+ was still 12 points higher than Mini-Mart's.

I can certainly see an argument that Batiste was even worse than Mini-Mart. But his presence on the roster wasn't as inexplicable as Mini-Mart's.

I was at a playoff game in '93. Shilling was the starter against Atlanta and I believe Batiste made the error at third that sent the game into extra innings before the Phils won.

I'd have to say that Batiste and Minimart are neck and neck. But there have been so many bad players over the years it's a wonder the team didn't just disband and go back to bagging groceries at the Quickimart. And even on the good teams there's been Bruntlet, Nunez and Minimart. I suppose that's proof that your 25th guy can suck as long as your other 24 are good enough. The trouble now is that there are at least 4 25th guys on the team.

Batiste was a good-in-the-clubhouse guy. Came to play.

"Mini-mart's continued presence is a complete mystery."

Rube. Barnyard animals. Pictures. 'Nuff said?


I was also at that game. If you remember, Batiste had the game winning hit that game in extras. Still sucked aside from that one moment though.

This is preposterously OT, but given the love this episode inspired to many on this blog, I thought this video was worth sharing:

RE: the Batiste game winning hit in extras:

I swear, the national TV broadcast called him "the player of the game" & used the slogan "from goat to hero"

dennyb: "Ruf hit the ball hard his first time up on the ground right at the 3B."

It was a solid 1 hopper right at the 3B for a tailor made DP.

RE: Batiste Game
Phillies carried him off the field after that hit.

"RE: Batiste Game
Phillies carried him off the field after that hit."

Should have kept carrying him to one of the cells below the Vet and thrown away the key.

If the question is who is the most undeserving of a roster spot, just because I don't remember what kind of roster depth there was for utility IF when I was 10, I guess Mini gets the nod there. But he's been keeping who off the roster, Pete Orr? How can the difference between Mini/Orr be any more than the difference from Batiste to whoever they had at AAA? His seasons ranged from poor to vomit-inducing.

If you're asking who is the "worst player to put on a uniform," it's Batiste, hands down, in the last 25 years. He might even be the worst in franchise history. Relaford is up there too, as is No-Hit, though he wasn't here as long.

The Editors should start a new thread Mini-Mart how I loathe thee. Im almost sure he will probably be cut sometime in the near future.

"It was a solid 1 hopper right at the 3B for a tailor made DP."

If its a couple of feet left or right of the 3B, its a solid basehit. It was hit on the nose.

Howard's 2nd base knock was also basically a one hopper at the SS, that took a bad hop. It was also hit well.

I agree with JW and Sophist that a bullpen spot is Aumont's to lose. Hopefully with the added depth, they won't need high-leverage innings out of him (although, to be fair, he can easily turn any situation into a high-leverage one in 12 or 16 pitches).

I like watching Aumont for the same reason I like watching Carlos Marmol. The range of outcomes for any particular pitch is absurdly broad. He could do anything from throw the nastiest pitch you've ever seen to throw the ball over the backstop. He is as exciting as they get.

DH: Funny you should compare Aumont to Marmol because, earlier today, I was thinking that Marmol probably represents Aumont's best case scenario: a guy whose stuff is just so filthy that he manages to succeed despite having absolutely no idea where the ball is going.

I love when Carlos Marmol comes into close a game against the Phillies. Really only two outcomes:

1) Phillies get embarrassed and strike out three times.
2) He walks the entire team and the Phillies come back and win.

Abe Nunez can't qualify for the worst Phillie list because he actually did play decent defense, so he brought something to the table. He also had a career OBP of .313, which, while not good, especially when adjusted for league offensive levels at the time, is far from the depths that guys like Batiste and Mini-Mart and Bruntlett plunged to.

To be considered the worst of the worst, which is what we're looking for here, you have to be bad at everything. Really bad at everything. So I think this comes down to a Batiste/Mini-Mart showdown. And what a battle it is.

At this stage, Aumont is on the closer-in-training glidepath Madson was on. I still remember when Madson was ridiculed constantly as a DITH reliever until he added 5 mph (with good movement and location) on his fastball during the 2008 playoffs and just started blowing hitters away. They're different pitchers, but at this point, they've got to get Aumont as much experience as possible at the major league level so he can step in after next year and be a candidate to close.

It's way early, but if the book is getting out on Ruf, and he doesn't adjust in the batters box and doesn't improve on defense, he's essentially going to be a placeholder for a RHB OF that will come during trade season (e.g. Corey Hart) if the Phillies are in contention.

Kim Batiste gave me one of his bats when he was a Reading Phillie. Therefore, Mini Mart is the worst player in Phillies history.

See how easy that was?

MiniMart's baseball "sense" is <<<<< Galvis. The baseball IQ of the Phillies infield with Utley, Galvis, JRoll and Young is off the charts.

TNA, and Madson blew those hitters away with a fastball that was, on several occasions, right down the middle of the plate. Most MLB hitter could kill that pitch. How did he get away with it? The absolute filthiest changeup in MLB, which for a couple of seasons generated a higher percentage of swings-and-misses than any other single pitch by any pitcher in MLB.

Aumont does not have Madson's control or anything close to his secondary offering, and that is a huge difference between the two.

BTW, I love the discussion of "Who be worse - Batiste or minimart"?

To add my two cents, I only vaguely remeber Batiste (repressed memory), but I find it hard to beleive that anyone could possibly be worse than minimart.

How is it possible that the Phillies FA cannot find a better backup?

If mini sniffs the 25-man this season, it will be the most stinging indictment of Amaro's tenure, bar none.

In case anyone missed it, Crashburn Alley has an interview posted with Keith Law about the Phillies system.

Just click on the link on the left.

Edmundo: "My, oh my, there are a lot of signs pointing to a mid-decade debacle, aren't there?"

Maybe yes, maybe no. Don't forget all of the following were prominently featured in BA's Top 100 prospects, thus heralding a great era of Phillies baseball: Colvin, Cardenas, Donald, Marson, Cosart, Carrasco, Savery.

The presence of lots of prospects on the list can be meaningless, just as the absence of same.

***The presence of lots of prospects on the list can be meaningless, just as the absence of same.***

Regardless of whether they pan out or not, having prospects make the various lists gives them trade value so it helps us that way.

Sure, Cardenas sucked but he helped us get Blanton, a key piece of the 2008 WS team.

Marson/Donald/Carrasco=Cliff Lee, etc etc.

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