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Tuesday, January 22, 2013

Comments

Jack, see the headline?

I really need to get some of those goat pictures that Mini-Mart has of Amaro.

Meh...

Over/under % he will finish the season in red pinstripes.

For $750,000, I'll take the Winnebago, the living room furniture and that rusty old bucket over there, Pat. But I will most definitely NOT take the psychotic underachieving racist in right field.

Amaro just wasted $750,000 and made it that much harder to root for my boyhood team. I didn't mind that Bret Myers was a boor. And I didn't mind that Dickie Noles was an alcoholic. And I didn't mind that mini-mart had yet to face a firing squad. But after this move, I will have serious problems watching this team.

Put this stupid move together with TMac and Sarge announcing the games, and I think I'm going to find a lot of minor league games to watch this season. Yuck.

Do prison jumpsuits have red pinstripes?

That could affect that %...

oh noes!! aksmith won't watch the Phillies!

Of all the things to complain about with the Young deal I find it hard to get worked up over the 750,000 dollar number. It basically means Amaro signed a corner outfield 27 year old lottery ticket. He wanted low-risk/high reward. He definitely got low risk. I don't necessarily classify Young as a high reward but if he is a platoon guy he should be okay. If he starts in right I would wager his defense sucks but if he gives you something similar number wise to 2010 it might work out fine.

What's the over/under on Delmon Young pulling a Shawn Chacon the first time Rube (He of the Philadelphia Jewish Sports Hall of Fame) gets on him for something in the clubhouse?

5% 10%?

r00b's an Elijah Dukes signing away from being able to unveil the new Citizens Bank Home for Troubled & Wayward Ballplayers.

There seems to be a misunderstanding about Young's contract as seen in Godfather's post from the last thread.

The $750k is the MINIMUM he can make. If he gets enough ABs to hit 15-20 HRs, he will NOT make $750k. He will make $3.5M.

That just makes it all the more hysterical, clout.


Does anyone really think that a 70 year old UC will finally figure out how to platoon OFs? If Young has a decent Spring and/or first few weeks in April, he'll probably end up with 500-600 ABs this year. UC loves being able to pencil guys into the lineup.

UC is also a lame duck. If the team falters at all, would it surprise anyone if he gets canned?

No, not one bit. If they get off to a rough start, I almost guarantee that Rube pulls that trigger and goes with Sandberg.

clout: Where did you see the particulars of Young's incentives? I may be looking in the wrong spots because I only see roster and performance bonuses can raise the money but am not seeing the specific incentives.

Ironically, the Phils have shown their lack of confidence in platoons and young outfielders by signing another young, platooning outfielder. This situation is going to be a mess.

They are done. No way around it. RAJ will send Charlie packing first without a doubt. The next in line is him though. He torpedoed this franchise.

This signing might have as much to do with corner OF as it does with restocking the power supply with low-risk options in the event that 1B will become a sh*tstorm again. If Howard misses time again, they will be royally screwed out of power, which was their biggest issue on offense last season.

That's the only real appeal about this signing. Young, at the very least, can pop a few. At least two of the OFs can play first if the Phils need them to. Young hits lefties at a decent clip w/ XBHs and the Phils hope Ruf isn't a fluke. In an all-out platoon, the Phils might be able to bang at a decent clip. 2-1 losses become 3-2 wins.

Young doesn't walk? Jesus. You get what you pay for. They're paying him like he's a below-average player. Amaro basically admitted as much in the video.

TTI: Jeff Passan of Yahoo! Sports, the deal could max out at $3.5 million if he reaches all incentives based on plate appearances and roster bonuses. It's a pretty fair assumption that if he's got enough ABs to hit 15-20 HRs, as some has projected for him, that he will have met his PA incentive and roster bonus.

JW, great points.

What does a 'howardless' lineup look like?"


Rollins
MYoung
Utley
Ruf/DYoung/RFD?
Chooch
Brown
Ruf/DYoung/RFD?
Revere

Yikes!

clout, most understand that the total deal could be $3.5MM, but if one is assessing the financial risk to the Phillies, the number starts aa $750K.

If Young get cut in ST they still owe him that money.

It's a 1 yr contract and a fairly low minimum. They can cut him loose if they need to.
If he can contribute, there is some money in it for him. This might be motivation enough for him to check his baggage, at least for a season.
His career is in the hopper if he reverts to his evil ways.
Rube is dumpster diving, not just shopping at value village. But, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Low Risk- Moderate Reward from a dollar standpoint.
The real risk is that we abandon Ruf and he turns out to be somebody else's future star.

"Rube is dumpster diving, not just shopping at value village."

Buuba, LOL!

Thank you, rolo.
I'll be here all week.

I'm not sure if anyone answered my question earlier, but I was wondering why Young gets to be an everyday player, potentially, but Mayberry is relegated to a platoon role automatically.

Mayberry is the *much* better defensive player, and baserunner, and they're pretty damn similar offensively. Why do the Phillies seem to think Delmon is better?

For that matter, what does he bring to the table at all that Mayberry doesn't?

Much like John Lannan, if Young earns all of his incentives, the team will have been better for acquiring them.

What did MG said it cost for 1.0 WAR on the market this year? $6 million? So if he hits all his incentives and is under 0.6 WAR, or makes ~$1 million and is under 0.2 WAR, your complaints are justified, I guess. Otherwise, the uproar over this signing is baffling.

I understand the concerns about Young but anyone who says they were OK with Brett Myers but Young will put them off the Phillies indefinitely is just looking for things to piss and moan about.

And if the uproar is over his past indiscretions- specifically what happened last year- my suggestion is to get over yourselves.

People on here can climb on their soapboxes about how righteous and moral they are, but if we all posted the worst things we've ever said while drunk, I'm pretty sure what Young said pales in comparison. And I'm pretty sure nobody here would want it held against them for life. The guy did community service and paid his debt to society. It's time to let it go.

Some of you wanted the sociopathic Melky Cabrera. Are we really going to start getting indignant about what athletes do and say? Ninety percent of these guys are dicks in real life.

This Phillie team looks embarrassing. How the mighty have fallen very disappointing.

Things I don't get:

- How 1B/corner OF/DH averaged who has averaged just 16 HRs/162 games in his career and 14 HR/year since he became a regular is considered a power hitter?

- How Amaro can say with a straight face that Young 'feels more comfortable' in RF when Young hasn't played there with any regularity since '07 and has had 2 consecutive years where his right ankle (the one he just had microfracture fracture on this offseason) has notably bothered him?

- Amaro has said for 2 consecutive offseason that the Phils need to work counts and be more selective at the plate and then goes out and signs a pure hacker like Young who does neither?

Ok, MG, I'll bite:

1 - Young is considered by some to be a power hitter because he hit for some power in the minors and he had one year of 21 HR. That's all.

2 - Two thoughts here: One, it's wishful thinking by Amaro, and two, he said it to try to light a fire under Brown.

3 - I have no explanation other than the Phillies FO was desperate to get into the news cycle.

Best comment I read about Delmon Young on a Twins blog:

"Delmon Young is the Miracle Whip of baseball. He is terrible to begin with and ruins anything you add him to."

I also agree with this statement:

"Is it possible to sign a player for $750,000 with incentives and have it actually hurt a team?" The answer: Yes, if that player is Delmon Young.

"How Amaro can say with a straight face that Young 'feels more comfortable' in RF"

Could it be that Young told him he's more comfortable in RF? Or is it more likely that Amaro told him, "Delmon, I've decided you're more comfortable in RF"?

And wouldn't it be a good thing for an athlete that got surgery on an ankle that's noticeably bothered him? I mean, I know it's a huge risk because we just signed him to a $100 million contract, but if the surgery was to take pain away, I would think the chances are that it would help his mobility. If it doesn't and he's still immobile, I guess the team will just have to suck it up and pay him $100 million.

We all can agree with one thing: if he goes out there and physically can't perform in RF, it's written in stone that they'll keep putting him out there because they don't want to eat that mega-contract.

Iceman - You honestly believe that Young told Amaro he feels most comfortable in RF? Not buying it.

The microfracture surgery is more of an option of last resort. As for his defense, he's been terrible in LF/RF every single year.

As for releasing him, do you think the Phils will honestly release Young at this point given Amaro's expressed desire for a veteran RH OF bat this entire offseason? Yeah, me neither. The only way Young gets released I bet is if his mouth costs him a job.

Basically the question is do I think Young will be a worse option than Mayberry/Ruf vs LHP (yeah I do when you consider his defense and baserunning although I can see arguing that Young will be at least if not more productive than an unknown like Ruf) or a better full-time option than Brown.

The biggest concern I have is that because Young is a 'proven MLB player' that Cholly will make Young a default starter.

Easiest way to keep Cholly from running Young out there every day? Tell him that any incentives Young earns from PA's comes out of Cholly's pocket.

Poor Revere. He not only has to cover 80% of the OF, but do it w/o getting flattened by Ruf or Young.

Revere batting 8th, with Howard, Young, Ruiz, or Ruf on base in front of him = ZERO SB.

I dont think Brown is traded just yet. I could be wrong and i probably wake up tomorrow and read Brown was traded to the Astros for a minor league 3B. I suspect they would trade Mayberry or Nix for some low level prospect or something of the sort.

At least 3 different posters advocating trading Mayberry today. He's the only backup CF, can play late-inning D for Brown, Young, or Ruf, and can give Howard a break at 1B.

MG- you have no idea what would 'cost him his job' or if Manuel is going to run him out there regardless of performance and neither does anyone else. Everyone (myself included) thought Castillo and Fontenot would be started because they were vets- people fretted over it for weeks in both cases- and neither came to fruition. I think it's time to simply analyze moves for what they are instead of deciding "This is how things are going to go" based on speculation rooted in a precedent that isn't nearly 100% accurate. Try to use facts and statistics instead of assumptions for once.

Now the comparison to Mayberry is at least something that can be rooted in fact and not in speculation. I pointed out their numbers against LHP earlier and they are very similar, though Young has a much longer track record, and Mayberry fell off this year in his first full-year of MLB exposure. And keep in mind Mayberry had the pathetic distinction of not drawing a walk against LHP in 2012 til like late August.

Here are their numbers vs. RHP:

Young: .275/.307/.401/.708, 17.7% K/rate, .309 wOBA
Mayberry: .232/.302/.379/.680, 25.8% K/rate, .301 wOBA

Mayberry is embarrassingly bad against RHP and is very limited in his ceiling as a player. And Young, while most of his career has been a disappointment, has shown a hell of a lot more promise than Mayberry, and has put up a much higher ceiling (2010) for what he can do as an everyday player. For $750K, it is worth seeing if he can hit that ceiling again.

As for Mayberry's base-running and defense, color me completely unimpressed. He can play all three positions relatively competently, and that has value enough to keep him on the team. Last year's Baserunning Runs Above Average, Young was -3.0; Mayberry was -2.5. Fielding Runs Above Average, Young was -4.2; Mayberry was -2.3. They are both below average in those aspects of the game.

Mayberry has shown the ability to hit for power against LHP. That's why he's on the roster. He has never shown the capability, past two months in 2011, of being anything more than that- in the minors or in the majors.

Young has shown a much higher ceiling offensively, which is why he's getting a low-cost shot at realizing that potential again. I don't see what's wrong with that. I don't even think it will work out. I just don't find it as appalling at those that have made a habit of finding relatively innocuous things appalling.

Oh would I love to go back and read what was said about Jayson Werth when he was signed? I believe it was a common refrain to call him 'Werthless' for the first few months of his time here.

Conway I agree that Mayberry has some value and I dont hate him like most of the Bl'ers. I just think Nix/Berry seem to be the oddmen out. Lets not forget they also have the rule 5 kid.

I agree with Iceman. Phillies have almost no money tied up in Young and no reason to keep him around if he struggles. Young has every reason to tow the line because his career is on the rocks. Getting all worked up over this deal is just silly.

Whose next --
Urbina?

Look at the the mats ___

They are the phillies of 2008

The phillies are the - ______. Of 20xx

Fill in blanks

It wouldn't be BL without someone being up in arms about $750k to Delmon Young or MiL deals to Lopez and Cook.

Young for g. Stanton?

dyoung standing behind howie will tempt every lh hitter to pull the ball for all they're worth.

The Phillies had their road show run through Reading last night and the quote in the local paper that Amaro used was this:

"This signing is kind of a low-risk, high-reward type signing. We've gotten a proven outfielder, especially offensively. Whether he can do the job defensively remains to be seen."

Doesn't sound like they are anointing him anything just yet.

MG: Also, they said Biddle will start at Double A and highlight a strong pitching staff. I just want you to get your knives sharpened for when they say they have a good roster there. Spring training for you too buddy.

I smell a Cub coming this way.Are your bags packed Dom?

Can we stop using the low risk/high reward meme? Delmon Young is low risk/low reward; if the Phils get super lucky, medium reward.

I just smellllllllllllllllllllllllllll what the rock is cookin

Can someone explain to me what exactly Delmon Young has "proven"?

People are acting as though hes at least a weapon offensively, despite his terrible defense and baserunning. But hes not. He has basically the same OPS the last two years as Ben Francisco. He has a career .317 OBP.

His 98 OPS+ is slightly below-average for *all* players, let alone corner OFs who can't play defense.

What is the high reward here?

"As for releasing him, do you think the Phils will honestly release Young at this point given Amaro's expressed desire for a veteran RH OF bat this entire offseason?"


MG, that question contains a false premise.

"...at this point..."?

Of course they wouldn't release him at this point.

Let me ask you the question this way:

If, at the beginning of June, Ruf has put up a slash line of .275/.345/.440 with 10/40, and Brown has put up a slash line of .265/.340/.420 with 8/30, what do you think they'll do if feel they need another piece (maybe another backup catcher or a RP?)?

Under those circumstances what do you think they'd do with Young?

TTI, what miffs me about that quote is the "proven outfielder, especially offensively" part.

Young has a career 96 wRC+. Since he's awful defensively, and since a 96 wRC+ is passable only for a CF, I'm not sure how he's a "proven" anything. If anything, he's a proven OF failure.

Also, his power?

Yeah, his HR per every 40 PA is really a sign of terrific power. Since he came into the league, among qualified hitters, that would rank in 231st place, behind noted power hitters like Alexei Ramirez, Pedro Feliz, Chad Tracy, Russell Martin, Ben Francisco and Willy Aybar.

Can't wait to see this immense power.

He's a garbage player, and irrespective of the cost of the contract, it's a waste of time when we have a player on the roster in Mayberry who is better than Young in every way.

Jack beat me to it.

jack- the "high reward" is getting the .826 ops (124 ops+) out of Young that he put up 2 years ago again in what is usually a players peak age season. Will he get there? who knows. But if Young were a consistent 124 ops+ player, the team wouldn't have gotten him for $750k. Only 2 guys had more than 40 at bats with the team and ops+'d 124 or better last year. Carlos Ruiz (149 ops+, who will miss 50 games and is a catcher in his 30's) and Frandsen (124 ops+, unlikely to repeat).

jbird, under that premise, every player is "high reward" since if the chips all fall the right way for them, they can post unsustainably high offensive numbers (just like Frandsen did last year).

but if that's the case, then Mayberry is just as "high reward", if not moreso, than Delmon Young (remember, Mayberry was a first round pick, as well..might have #1 overall with Seattle), but not nearly as much risk, since he doesn't have incentives in his deal that could kick up to $3.5 M, and he can play defense and run the bases.

So again, why the signing?

I would have preferred the team sign Swisher, but this is a fairly innocuous deal to be generating this level of angst. If Young plays well, great. If he's a bum the team will cut him.

"At least 3 different posters advocating trading Mayberry today. He's the only backup CF, can play late-inning D for Brown, Young, or Ruf, and can give Howard a break at 1B."


Conway, yep, and they never answer the question I've posed to them:

Who, then, is the backup CF?

Shortsighted, to say the least.

Fatalotti: I understand what you're saying, I got upset when the team followed up the Halladay trade by trading away Lee. But the team already has Mayberry under control and will probably be paying him in arbitration pretty close to what Young is making. Mayberry is going to be on the team as the 4th outfielder and backup CF. If the team turns around and non-tenders Mayberry this week I might get a little upset. But till then, I'll reserve my fury for a truly stupid move. I'm sure the team will manage one soon. by the by, Iceman posted Young v Mayberry vs RHP splits above. They are not the same player.

Rolo: I'm not an advocate of trading Mayberry, but isn't the obvious answer to your question, the rule 5-guy Inca-whatshisname? I mean once you draft a guy in the rule 5 draft he has to stay on the roster come hell or high water, or MLB disbands the franchise or something, right?

hm, I guess Mayberry isn't arb eligible yet. He'll be renewed. Probably $550k-ish.

Yes jbird, Mayberry is 51 OPS points better against LHP, and only 28 OPS points worse against RHP than Young.

But since both should be platoon players, and given Mayberry's superior baserunning and defense, it only makes my case stronger that this is just a waste of time.

And can we cool it with this "people need to stop getting up in arms over this move" nonsense. It's friggin the middle of January and it's -30 degrees outside (or it feels like it). This is a baseball blog, and people are voicing their displeasure with what they view to be a wasteful move.

And, of course, who hasn't screamed anti-semitic slurs at strangers a couple times, you know?

It was -8 F at my house this morning.

Cold weather sucks...though not as much as Delmon Young.

Also, Iceman, I've never been drunk, nor have I ever yelled racist slurs at other people. Sorry to destroy your image of everyone being a complete and utter a88hole.

Fatalotti: I mean get upset if you want, but some of the histrionics are a bit much for such a small deal.

jbird, I'm not really upset. I think it's a dumb move. It could be dumber, believe me. I don't take exception with the low-risk portion of it. I take exception with the high-reward portion. I view it as low-risk, low-reward. Even if he repeats his 124 OPS+ season, he's just so terrible in every other aspect of the game, that he'll still likely be a below average player.

And his repeating that seasons is unlikely as it is.

Cold weather sucks...though not as much as Delmon Young.

Could be a new meme ...

Light beer sucks...though not as much Delmon Young.

Iceman - Castillo and Fontenot are apples and oranges and neither is a good comparison to Young.

Castillo got later spring invite and didn't get a guaranteed MLB deal. I did think the Phils were going to keep him over Mini-Mart but they designed not to. No real question of whether or not Young is going to make the Opening Day roster.

Fontenot was a waiver wire picker midseason and there wasn't younger player holding him back because Galvis had already gone on the DL.

As for Young getting released due to performance issues, I would bet strongly against that and put my money where my mouth is.

It's quite possible Young says something stupid in the clubhouse or otherwise that gets him released. Even possible if the Phils tank a bit that Amaro tries to move him at the deadline for anything in return.

You have this habit too of taking and twisting people's arguments or expanding it to statements/arguments they clearly didn't make.

I said Young isn't an upgrade vs. LHP compared to Mayberry/Ruf and isn't an upgrade as a full-time starter vs Brown. Stand by that statement.

Frankly, I wish the Phils had held on to Schierholtz instead of a guy like Young. Schierholtz would actually be a better fit for this team right now than Young.

I still don't understand how he's getting a shot in RF. He hasn't played there since 2007 and the team is giving him a chance to be the starter there? I mean huh?

Fatalotti: that's fine. If he's putting up a 80 ops+ in July and still getting full-time at bats, I'll be upset. I think guys like Young get opportunity after opportunity because he's a former #1 prospect and each team thinks maybe they'll be the one to finally unlock his 40+ homerun potential. It worked with Josh Hamilton for the Reds, though his circumstances were a tad different.

DO NOT WANT

Young makes Burrell look like a gold glover in the outfield. Young has zero range and also doesnt make the routine plays hit right at him. He's comically bad as a defender.

It should be "fun" to watch him play.

I'm a back up CF!

"league maximum"? I didn't know there was a player salary cap?

The often criticized top of the order for the 2012 Phillies helped give Hunter Pence the most RBI Oppurtinities in the entire MLB. In return, he was barely above league average in cashing them in.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-opportunity-of-rbi/

rolo:
In re: your line up above

Batting Revere 8th is the most insane thing a manager might do (which doesn't mean Manuel won't do it). When he gets on 1B, which his most likely none-out outcome by a huge margin, having the pitcher bunt him over to second will be the most ludicrous surrendering of an out ever. He should bat in a position where his one actual offensive asset is useful.

TTI - Actually when the annual article comes out from Mike Drago in the Reading Eagle/Times (I do like him as a local guy) saying how talented the RPhils roster is, it probably will have a bit more validity to it this year.

The bullpen is going to lack a killer talented arm but there are a couple of solid arms there including Knigge and Simon who might make the MLB club. Rotation though is what is going to be worth taking a look at especially if Biddle is there.

Morgan, Martin, and Rodriquez are the other starters with some question on who is the 5th starter.

As for the positional players, it depends alot on who opens the season there. Joseph will at C. C. Hernandez and Gillies too. Imagine Asche will too at 3B with Fields at Lehigh. Not a terrible group but no real high ceiling talent.

It should be a team worth watching though with an overall decent talent level.

You know 3 or 4 years ago I kinda thought Delmon Young would be a good acquisition. He still is young (no pun there). He's 27. His career might still be on the upswing. He could, actually, turn out to be a power bat.

That's it for upside, however. He has turned himself into an unstable and uncertain commodity. Maybe he's gotten his "issues" under control. But I'm not inclined to believe a rehabilitation has irrevocably changed the character of a guy who assaults umpires and drunkenly shouts epithets. And by every estimation I've heard (and the evidence of where his last team played his 27 year old legs) he's gotten worse in the field.

All that being said, the only way he earns the incentives in his clause is by earning them, which will be to the benefit of the team. I'd still rather see a beginning of the year with Ruf, Revere, Brown, and Nix and Mayberry as back-ups. The odds are against any of them succeeding. But at least none of them have pooped where they eat.

I will say this - this is the first season Amaro decided to pursue a completely different route going the 'quantity vs quality' approach.

Granted, it was almost entirely of his own making because of the previous contracts and moves he made but it will be interesting to see just how many 'hits' Amaro had this offseason.

- M. Young trade
- Revere trade
- D. Young signing
- Adams signing

For the Phils to make the playoffs, I think he needs 'hits' on at least 3 of those moves and for those guys to be productive/surprise a bit while staying on the field.

"So again, why the signing?"

Fatti, you're not this dense. I posted the reason several times yesterday:


Young is a $750K insurance policy in case of a Ruf Suckathon, and you can throw Nixberry and Brown into the potential Suckathon mix as well.

He's here because they're trying to reduce the risk of Brown and Mayberry putting up OPS+ that are below 90. Granted, Young really hasn't been any better than that the last 2 years, but he was obviously hurt last year (surgery) and maybe they think he has a shot to recover.

The problem with you and the other guys/gals who question the move is that you seem to think it's being portrayed as an upgrade.

It's not.

It's a depth signing, pure and simple, with the possibility that it could turn into an offensive upgrade, and a player who might be a nice trade piece come the deadline if Ruf and Brown do step up this season.

For people to get their panties in a wad over a $750K signing is beyond me. From a financial standpoint it's a low-risk move. Young gets a chance to prove he can be a good citizen and resurrect his career, and should have all the motivation in the world.

Besides, some reports say he won't be ready for the start of the season because of the surgery. If that's the case he'll be on rehab assignments, and the other four corner OF will get their shot.

In that scenario, if one of Ruf or Brown step up, then Young becomes a player who merely provides some depth and can DH in the 10 games in AL parks.

It works for Young because if he shows he can still play and be a good citizen he rehabs his career and can possibly catch on with another team in 2014 - ass-u-ming he isn't moved for the proverbial bullpen piece, PTBNL, cash considerations or some dudes.

From "The Team To Beat" to "MLB Halfway House": The Ruben Amaro, Jr. GM Story

MG, you left Lannan off your list. Is your assumption that Lannan is pretty much guaranteed to be between Meh and Somewhat Useful and there will be very little variance between expected and actual?

One other thing. Dates of birth:

Nix, 10/30/80
Mayberry, 12/21/83
D. Young, 9/14/85
Ruf, 7/28/86
Brown, 9/3/87
Revere, 5/3/88

There are lots of reasons to object to hiring Delmon Young. But age is not one of them. Giving "the young guys" a chance, in fact, would mean benching Mayberry.

(Until I did this, I had no idea how young Revere was. Despite his lack of power, he might not end up being a bad acquisition.)

rolo, I don't agree. And I guess if I don't agree with you, I'm dense. Makes sense.

Young is a low-risk, low-reward player. I think it's a waste of time/resources, and at some point, he's going to be taking ABs away from Ruf/Brown, so there's an opportunity cost.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I think it's a waste of time/resources, and at some point, he's going to be taking ABs away from Ruf/Brown, so there's an opportunity cost.

Well stated, & 100% correct.

awh: "Young is a $750K insurance policy in case of a Ruf Suckathon, and you can throw Nixberry and Brown into the potential Suckathon mix as well."

So you're saying that Delmon will be on the bench to start the season, while Brown and co. are given the chance to succeed first?

That doesn't seem to be what Ruben is saying.

"Rolo: I'm not an advocate of trading Mayberry, but isn't the obvious answer to your question, the rule 5-guy Inca-whatshisname?"


jbird, while Ender Inciarte is apparently a speedster, he's never played above High-A ball.

His slash line seems to indicate he has decent on-base skills, but do you really want to enrust CF to a 22 year-old who's never had an AB at AA?

"For the Phils to make the playoffs, I think he needs 'hits' on at least 3 of those moves and for those guys to be productive/surprise a bit while staying on the field."


MG, I'd add the Lannan signing to your list.

I also think it's going to take one of Ruf or Brown stepping up and taking a permanent corner OF spot.

Young is a depth signing but I have a feeling he is going to end up in more of a full-time role early on even getting penciled into the
#5 hole if he is healthy.

It's quite possible Brown sucks showing little offensive improvement & being a defensive liability and Mayberry is a mediocre 4th OF type.

This move does mean that Ruf will start the year at Lehigh. Young's a known commodity and I would have rather had the Phils given a shot to Ruf in a part-time role.

Too bad the Phils couldn't have stashed Young away to start the year at Lehigh on a minor league deal & saw what they had with Brown/Ruf/Mayberry for at least the first 6-8 weeks of the season.

That would have been the ideal scenario to me but Young likely was only going to sign somewhere where he was guaranteed a MLB deal and a spot on the Opening Day roster.

rolo - Completely forgot. I still stand by that 3 out of 5. Phils should be in contention this year and the sum of those moves is going to play a big deal on pushing the Phils over the top or holding them back I bet.

"I think it's a waste of time/resources, and at some point, he's going to be taking ABs away from Ruf/Brown, so there's an opportunity cost."


If Young opens up the seaosn on the Dl, he'll start the season in teh minors and won't take ABs away from anybody.

Here's a question: Have the details of his contract been published yet? Is there a clause that states he has to be with teh big club by a certain date or he gats an unconditional release?

If not, he's a $750K insurance policy that can be stashed in the minors, just like Lannan was $5MM AAA insurance for the Nats last season.

What I find amusing is all of the assumptions that "Young is going to do this, and Young is going to do that".

Guess what, B&G, you don't know what's going to happen or if Young will even be in the organization by the end of ST.

rolo: You keep harping on the $750K thing.

No one cares about the money. It's about opportunity cost, not financial cost. Stop bringing up the fact that it's cheap. We all know that, and no one is claiming the financial resources are an issue. We're all simply arguing that it's a waste of a roster spot and ABs/innings in the field, not a waste of money.

Guess what, B&G, you don't know what's going to happen or if Young will even be in the organization by the end of ST.

Posted by: rolo | Wednesday, January 23, 2013 at 10:26 AM

Don't puff your chest out too much. You might hurt yourself.

"That doesn't seem to be what Ruben is saying."


lorecore, please don't tell me you believe everything you hear that comes out of RAJ's mouth?

(See my post on this subject earlier in the previous thread 9:06 PM last night, as well as Will Schwietzer's 8:55PM.)

They're paying Young as the 25th man. Not that I like the move, but ask yourselves who would you rather have? 38-year old Mark De Rosa for $750k or 27-year old Delmon Young for the same money.

If he sucks, so what. They'll release him. Nothing ventured and nothing gained.

I've said, the past 2 off-seasons, RAJ neglected the off-season & he has. He could've done a lot better, for a lot more money (and that's the caveat here), but he didn't.

And I still believe there's another move coming.

"This move does mean that Ruf will start the year at Lehigh."


MG, based on some reports:

"Amaro said there’s a chance Young could start the season on the disabled list; the outfielder underwent microfracture surgery on his right ankle on Nov. 10, just after the World Series. Young, who has already lost 20 pounds on a healthier diet, continues to work through a four-to-six month rehab process in preparation for spring training."

Young may not be ready until May if it takes the full 6 months.

If that's the case he's taking PA away from no one.

http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/phillies-talk/Phillies-hope-Delmon-Young-can-start-in-?blockID=825999&feedID=693

"They're paying Young as the 25th man."

And if they play him as the 25th man, that's great. If, instead, he is a starting OF for this team, then that's terrible.

rolo: So your best defense of signing a player is now that the player isn't healthy enough to actually play?

That's certainly an interesting way to look at it.

Fatti, nice ad hominem attack.

Do you have an actual response to the point I made?

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