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Wednesday, December 12, 2012

Comments

AWH, it does crack me up that you put Rollins at #1 in a nod to Charlie's habits, despite your founding of the J6 Club; but then you put the pitcher 8th, which is far more of a taboo for CM than moving Rollins down. That said, I like the lineup, except I'd go with Swisher over Upton.

fumphis, if it were ME filling out the lineup card it would look like this:

Revere
Utley
Upton
Howard
Chooch
JRoll
Ruf/Nix/RFD
P
Young

Swisher seems perfect and the only rumored offers so far have been 4/$48m. Has to be the draft compensation that gives the FO pause.

If it were me filling out the lineup card it would look like this

#1Martinez
LOL
wut?
11!!1111
&
[picture of a penis]
lolololol!!
Picher
#9Martinez hahah

bitches!

The other issue is that signing Swisher would cost the Phillies the 16th overall pick in next June's draft. The Yankees extended Swisher a qualifying offer, which he declined, meaning that the signing team loses its first-round pick (if that pick is after No. 10) and every team behind it moves up a slot.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If that's the case, why did they make an offer to BJ Upton? Wouldn't he have cost the draft pick also?

I would much prefer Swisher hitting .186 for the Phillies in the playoffs than having Utley and Rollins miss the playoffs for the second consecutive year.

I wonder why no one has asked anyone in the FO about this. I haven't even seen so much as a comment on Swisher from anyone in the know.

Mike G: It may be that the Front Office feels that losing the draft pick is more palatable for some players and not others.

It's a question of time. You'd have to sign Swisher for his decline years, 32-35, probably through age 36 if you wanted to guarantee you'd get him, and for 12-15 million a year. You're really looking at 60-75 million, not 45-55, and you've got more competition. If you sign him, and another FA reliever, you've left yourself almost little wriggle room in the budget for this year and the next. That's a mistake.

Ross, on the other hand, you can get for 2-3 years and he's the same age, plus more useful in the outfield since you could use him at CF if you had to (though it's obviously not your first choice). Yeah, Ross isn't a great defender, but he's decent, whereas Swisher is poor. But you've got room to add payroll if you sign Ross. You don't if you want to get Swisher.

Better defender, cheaper, and you're looking for a complimentary bat, not a centerpiece. Ross fits that better.

Don't forget his spot on the MLB's Most Punchable Faces list. That's also got to give some pause.

Though, to be fair, Cody Ross is probably higher up on the list than Swish. I don't know that we've ever really ranked them within the list itself.

Well, we've got a whilte til P&C, might as well get to work on the MPF list.

I've never accused anyone of being in the FO and/or an apologist (as I've been labeled as one myself for a few years now), but Godfather must be one of the people in the Phillies FO that 'covets' Ross, because damned if I can find anyone on Earth that feels that way, especially in comparison to Swisher.

Yeah I read Godfather's post and I still don't get how anyone can argue Ross over Swisher.

Does not compute.

Mike G.: The offer to Upton was so far below what it would obviously take that I think they just made it to get press and spur the Braves into upping their offer and spending more money.

Unikruk, here's the list as it currently stands. Personally, I put Cody Ross at the top, but the rest are in no particular order.

- Cody Ross
- Russell Martin
- Nick Swisher
- Mark Teixeira
- Dan Uggla
- Jonathan Papelbon
- Buster Posey
- Brian Wilson
- Yadier Molina
- Nyjer Morgan
- Jose Reyes
- Bobby Valentine (inactive manager)

Swisher is literally the perfect fit at this point. Every move they've made this season literally points to signing Swisher. And the fact his price is said to be somewhere around 4yr/50-60M makes it fit even more, since it allows enough $$ to still reasonably address 1 of 8th inning/5th starter.

Shouldn't Robin Ventura (current manager) be on the list. Science (and Nolan Ryan) have shown through actual experimentation just how punchable his face is.

@ Cyclic/Iceman/lorecore

You are not gonna get Swisher for 4 years, 50-60 million. That's the Indians offer at a minimum and assumes they don't increase it. You're gonna have to beat it. Plus you're competing against whoever loses out on Hamilton. So if they've got money for Hamilton, they almost certainly have the money to outbid your initial offering. That means a bidding war. That means the price goes way up. And you overpay, crippling your finances.

You target Ross, you avoid that nonsense. And you'll have time any money to see how Ruf/Gillie/anyone else who comes along develops. No outfielder you sign this year is gonna form a new offensive core after 2013. They'll be complimentary players.

jbird, you make a fabulous point. Even for all of the perceived advantages he had going for him (youth, athleticism, etc.), Ventura's face was unmercifully pummeled. He literally has one of the more punchable faces.

Someone mentioned it last thread, but Ben Nicholson-Smith of MLBTR was saying he'd take Hamilton at 4/100 over Swisher at 4/60 if he were the Phillies. How in God's name does that make sense? 10m extra AAV on a team with gaping holes in the rotation and bullpen, for a player who hits lefties worse than the other guy on a team stacked with left-handed bats, and a major injury/relapse risk to boot. No age difference or defense gap to speak of. What the heck?

Yadi's a marginal candidate for me, but then I remember his neck tattoos. Plural. Can the neck be used to make determinations about the face? I'd bet most people would consider ears and hair as contributing factors to a punchable face.

WP, you left ARoid off the list.

jbird, LOL!

Godfather: You bring up a very good point. The reason Swisher rumors have been so few and far between is because he is likely waiting out the Hamilton sweepstakes before seriously considering his options.

With that said, I still think your Cody Ross solution is nonsense. If you want wait around and see what our internal options can do, then why would you even want to sign any OF at all?

Swisher is likely Rube's top target ... it seems too clear a fit -- and he doesn't want to give player/agent leverage by declaring this. Clearly the Cliff Lee contract came out of nowhere; hope this is another one

Padrino, that may be why Swisher hasn't signed yet.

He may be waiting for Hamilton to sign in order to drive his own price up.

Agents "play" the market as well as teams.

Damn, lore, you beat me to it.

Godfather--

Most recent thing $$ and years wise from MLBTR on Swisher is...

"While the Indians are hoping to sign Swisher to a four-year deal in the $48-50MM range, his market has shifted and he might now command a four-year, $60MM contract, Jim Bowden of ESPN.com and MLB Network Radio reports (on Twitter)."

Yeah, good call on Swisher waiting on Hamilton.

@lorecore

Because we do need immediate outfield help. But that doesn't remove the need to see our prospects develop, which is just as important. Signing Swisher to a long term deal hampers that second goal.

Ruf isn't ready for 2013. He was in Double A last year, remember? He needs another year in AAA to see how he performs. That's enough time to see if Brown finally blossoms or not. Mayberry's a platoon player, not a starter, despite what others may think.

Yes, I'd rather see what Brown does in RF/LF full time with Ross as his opposite. But if BOTH Brown and Ruf play really well, we've tied ourselves down with an expensive, aging switch hitter who defends poorly, and thus would be hard to move. Ross at least has his defense going for him, and since he'd be cheaper he'd make a better trade candidate. Swisher, signed to the kind of numbers we're talking about, is impossible to move.

awh, fair enough on ARoid. I'm assuming no one would take issue with adding him to the list? Consider it done.

"Mayberry's a platoon player, not a starter, despite what others may think."

Funny you say this when Ross basically = Mayberry

If they can't get Hamilton or Swisher I would try to convince Lance Berkman to give it a go in RF for one more year. If he gets hurt at least we still have Ruf/Nix and Brown/Mayberry platoons to fill in. And I like the idea of leaving things somewhat open for Brown and Ruf to take over the corners close to full time next year if they show enough. To me it is similar to the Thome move last year, which although it didn't work quite as planned, still left them with a tradable commodity and no long term commitment.

@Cyclic

Check his stats on Baseball-reference. Ross is a .720-730 OPS hitter against righties. League Average. And he's incredibly good against lefties, career OPS .928, better than Swisher in fact. Mayberry is much worse against righties (680 OPS, and that's including 2011 which is before pitchers figured him out).

Ross also looks like a better LF and CF defensively, and Mayberry hasn't played much RF. So Ross is more versatile, even if he's older.

I like Swisher. I even like Ross. But, for my money, the only FA that brings this lineup to a par or better than Atlanta and Washington is Hamilton. Spend the money, Ruben.

One more thing:

Swisher's total Career WAR is 17.9. Ross is 10.6. Both are over 9 seasons, so Swisher's average WAR is 1.99, and Ross' average war is 1.18. We're talking about a win difference year to year, here. I don't think that difference justifies some 4-6 million a year extra and an additional 2-3 years more commitment.

"Better defender, cheaper, and you're looking for a complimentary bat, not a centerpiece. Ross fits that better."

Where exactly was it declared that the Phillies are looking for a complementary player & not a centerpiece? If you want to play the role of the guy who defends every last thing that management does, that's fine. But let's not make stuff up.

stick with the platoon's in the corners sign a starter and a reliever, can always trade for an OF bat at some point if they aren't cutting it..Cuddyer, Willingham, Kubel, etc

Godfather, as Ross and Swisher are both over the age of 30, it migh tbe more appropriate to use WAR for the last 3 seasons.

Swisher's bWAR from '10-'12 is 8.4. Ross' is 3.1.

Swisher's fWAR is 11.8. Ross' is 5.7.

I nominate Eli Whiteside for the punchable list.

@ awh

Good point, forgot about that. So it's a difference of about 2 games instead by bWAR (I use baseball-reference all the time, might as well stay consistent). I still don't think that justifies the 40+ million in money you'd have to pay Swisher.

BAP has turned into the Joe McCarthy of BL, accusing everyone who tries to defend the FO's rationale on any one issue, of 'defending every last thing [they] do.' For an otherwise intelligent person, he's embarrassing himself with accusations like that.

Godfather- thank you for explaining that Ross >> Mayberry, because I had already pulled up their stats on BRef preparing for the fifth time to explain how that is crap.

I'd like to preface my comments by stating I have an irrational hatred of Nick Swisher. I could make a rational fact based argument on why I think he's over-rated, or why I think he'll be a bad sign, but I don't need to. The years and salary it will take to sign Swisher will cross a financial Rubicon that makes it pointless to not sign Hamilton instead.

The conventional wisdom says the Phillies have ~20million left to spend on an outfield bat, 8th inning relief, and a flyer of a 5th starter. This makes it seem that Swisher is the ideal canidate at ~15mil a year, because that leaves you with roughly 2.5mil each for the pitchers.

The problem with this is that you're not going to sign Swisher at 15mil a year. He wants Werth money, which is 18mil or more a year. That's why he's waiting, to drive up his price.

If you have to pay 23mil a year for those last three pieces, you're over the cap limit. At that point it behooves you to spend the extra 3-5mil a year it will take to sign Hamilton because he's more than a few million dollars of an upgrade. With either player you're going to give up a 1st round pick AND have to sign them for enough years that they'll be here through the remaining time this core has to win a championship.

Which happens to be the same amount of time it will take for the new TV deal to be negotiated. A deal which will make cap related nickle-and-diming a thing of the past. Those negotiations however, will be significantly impacted by the ratings these next two years. Which means it's worth the cap penalties now to have the best shot at winning. A shot Hamiliton gives you far better than Swisher.

The choice isn't Ross or Swisher. It's Ross or Hamiliton. You either think we're good enough now and just plug the gaps for as cheap as possible, or you break the cap and go for the WS win. A Swisher signing has all the downsides of a Hamiliton signing with fewer upsides.

And that's why Revere and Young made sense to me as moves. Revere is youthful and cost controlled, Young is a temporary placeholder and an incentive for Hamilton to feel comfortable here. Josh has always been the end goal for this offseason.

You'll here a Phillies-related rumor about Swisher as a negotiating tactic right before RAJ signs Hamilton.

*hear

LH, in terms of fWAR, Swisher and Hamilton have been nearly equal over the past 2 years. In terms of production per plate appearance, Hamilton wins, but Swisher is a near lock to give the Phils 150 games. If you get 130 games out of Hamilton, you'll be lucky.

So the 20 extra games is what makes Swisher nearly as valuable as Hamilton.

Also, I realize the numbers I implied for Hamilton fall short of the 27ish mil a year he would get under the 3/80 contract rumor. That's because he's not going to sign for a three year deal. He'll get less in a 4 or 5 year contract.

Also, in terms of AAV, Hamilton could be as much as $7-12 M more per year, if he gets the reported $30 over a 3 year deal.

"BAP has turned into the Joe McCarthy of BL, accusing everyone who tries to defend the FO's rationale on any one issue, of 'defending every last thing [they] do."

Nope, only the ones who defend EVERYTHING they do. As it happens, there are quite a few of those on here. Most of them, however, wait until the Phillies actually do something stupid before coming to management's defense. Godfather has managed to stand out from the crowd over the last few days, by anticipating the worst possible scenarios -- i.e., doing nothing else, or signing Cody Ross -- and defending those moves or non-moves before they even happen.

Fata, those extra 20 games don't make or break getting to the post season. For arguments sake, lets assume signing either one assures us of a playoff spot.

Now, how do they compare in postseason production...

Hamilton > Swisher. The only advantage Swisher has is the side of the plate he stands on. Personally, though, I think Hamilton's splits negate that.

LH, you really think their postseason numbers are predictive?

And yes, getting an extra 20 games out of your starting RF is a pretty big deal.

BAP- yes, that's it. I'm sure it's not that he actually agrees with that strategy. It's that he feels it's his duty to get out in front and start doing damage control for the FO in the comment section of a website.

And I don't even agree with one bit of what Godfather is saying (other than that Ross is superior to Mayberry). But to claim that he's actually on here shilling for the FO is beyond ludicrous.

@BAP

AHEM. Posted at 4:56PM Today:
"Because we do need immediate outfield help. But that doesn't remove the need to see our prospects develop, which is just as important. Signing Swisher to a long term deal hampers that second goal."

I'm not an advocate of doing nothing. I have never said that. This paragraph explains my position quite clearly. Signing Swisher to a long term deal precludes seeing our prospects develop. Therefore, it is a mistake.

It's called logic. Try to make use of it.

Postseason numbers are as predictive as regular season numbers. If you mean do I think previous postseason numbers are predictive to future postseason performance specifically? Of course not.

That's why I didn't compare Swisher and Hamilton's actual post season stats. The problem with Swisher is not the postseason production you can predict for him, it's that you can predict he's not going to show up at all. Six years of playoffs tells me it's not a fluke.

Also ~20games of a starting outfielder is not insignificant, but I think if these Phillies miss the playoffs with Josh Hamilton on the team, to assume that a few more games with Nick Swisher instead would have made a difference is ludicrous. In that case the problems would be far more than a lack of one bat or glove for a dozen and a half games.

LH, the following are the OPS figures he posted in each postseason he's been in:

2006: .707
2008: .750 (only 3 games and had a .933 OPS through the first 2 games)
2009: .489
2010: .704 (had a .943 OPS for the first 5 games of that postseason)
2011: .618
2012: .469

He wasn't that terrible in 2006, 2008 and 2010. He was terrible in the other 3 years.

Still, at the end of the day, it's 181 plate appearances. I'm sure I could find a weird random sample of his PAs in which he was awful numbers and claim something like, "Swisher is just awful on odd numbered days in his 3rd AB of a game in which his team is losing. DON'T WANT!"

Also, in case you forgot, this team didn't make the playoffs last year. GMs should build teams to MAKE the playoffs, not to perform well in the playoffs.

Lastly, Swisher doesn't have a platoon split, as he's a switch hitter, making him worlds less likely to get neutralized by a certain handed pitcher in a postseason matchup.

Please add Harper to the face punch compilation

"Please add Harper to the face punch compilation"

Another one that I'll be shocked if there's any objection. I'll even second that nomination myself. Consider it done.

@ Fatalotti

Yeah, the poor postseason performance is pretty silly. It's a limited sample size ofr a number of years. That doesn't factor in to my arguemtn, at all, for Ross over Swisher.

He also historically hits very similarly from either side of the plate. One of the closer platoon splits, career wise, I've seen, so this is a plus. But I feel his cost, his poor defense, and the effect his long term deal with have on prospect development outweigh his offensive upside compared to Ross.

Fair points, but by listing his OPS by post season it helps obscure that he has a career postseason .589 OPS. The mediocre production of the first half of those years is more than offset by the wretchedness of the second. He's never been good in the playoffs, comparative to either the league norms or his own. The best you can argue is that in more distant years he was crappy, but not as crappy as now.

That's not someone I'd want to invest in, especially if he ends up causing exactly the same cap and draft problems as Hamilton. In for a penny, in for a pound and all that.

I agree that you build for the regular season. My argument is that if Swisher is good enough, so is Hamilton. I don't see Swisher being better at getting us to the postseason.

Why does anyone hate Bryce Harper? All the does is play the game the way we would want our players to play ... and he does it very well. Seems like a together guy for having just left his teen years.

Godfather: Swisher is by far and away the better player than Ross and fits this team much better.

I am sorry. I respect opinions of others but there is no legitimate case that can be made to me that Ross should be signed over Swisher. Nick's numbers I posted last Thursday morning in a thread and it highlights how impactful he has been and could be in this lineup.

Also, he can be had without going to 18 AAV a year. That was the report for him months ago. Now they are saying there is a market deal to him of 4/48. It could go to 4/60. I'd be willing to go 4/60 with a 5th year vesting option based on him continuing to be durable and hitting certain benchmarks. People can say, "he wants Werth money." Well I want to fvck Emma Stone but that isn't happening either. The market for Swisher has dwindled to a point that after Hamilton signs he is what is left. So of course he waits that out and maybe gets 16 a year. But if he is waiting for a 7 year deal he is most likely holding a losing hand.

What frustrates me, and I see is starting to frustrate others, is that the Phillies are not attached to him at all apparently. Why wouldn't a team want a team in need of a corner outfielder with pop want a corner outfielder with pop, that can switch hit, and is a high energy guy that the locker room could really use? It boggles the mind.

@Edmundo

Arrogance, even justified, rarely wins you admiration. He's also a classic example of the old Nike "Love the player; hate the player" ad campaign. It's the W on his cap that keeps most people from liking him. Switch it to a P and things would be much different. Victorino was like that. We loved him for all his goofiness, but fans elsewhere despised him. Here in NYC he garnered an inordinate amount of hate from Mets fans that I know.

Can we trade for Bryce Harper? Or better yet, both he and Mike Trout?

I'm sure Cloyd, Ruf and Brown can get it done for at least one of them.

"BAP- yes, that's it. I'm sure it's not that he actually agrees with that strategy. It's that he feels it's his duty to get out in front and start doing damage control for the FO in the comment section of a website."

Upon reflection, you are right. Throwing labels around is not the best way to express disagreement. I hereby declare Beerleaguer Bankruptcy on every time I have called someone a front office apologist -- or implied it to be the case. Including Godfather.

Amen on Harper, Edmundo. I can understand hating on a guy like Ross, who practically did a victory dance after his dingers in the 2010 playoffs--or ugly, freaky types like Molina, The Beard Wilson, or Tim Lincecum. There's absolutely no reason to hate Harper aside from the fact that he will undoubtedly be a Phillie-killer for years to come; he's a player that's fun to watch because of his skill and energy, and one it'd be a delight to root for if he was on our team. It's poor sportsmanship to hate rivals for being good ballplayers; as a Phillies fan, I want Bryce Harper to strike out whenever he's facing one of our pitchers, but I don't otherwise wish him harm--I felt the same way about Chipper Jones and other great Philly-killers of the past.

Harper has stupid hair= punchable face. This is a clown discussion bro.

If it truly was a choice between Swisher at 4 YR $60 and Cody Ross at 3 YR $27M, then it shouldn't even be a conversation. The answer SWISH!!!

And I agree with the majority here. A choice between Ross and Swisher is hardly a choice at all.

I'd say Harper is an "ugly freaky" type with his mohawk and red contacts, for example. Plus, he'll likely be hurting the Phils for years, so there's *some* reason to dislike the kid. He does hustle/bust his butt, so that's nice and all.

I'm not a big fan of Ross to the Phils, but he came out off the scrap heap to be a major contributor down the stretch to win the world series. I may be the only one who has some degree of respect for him for that.

I just wanted to get a rough estimate of what it would mean to lose Josh Hamilton for 20 games and be replaced by John Mayberry

Using Bill James' 2013 wOBA projections to generate a thumbnail wRC* projection for a ridiculously small 75 plate appearances

 
2013 woba wRC
josh 0.376 13.13
mayberry 0.325 9.31

So losing Josh for ~20 games might be losing ~4 runs over that span (just looking at offensive production).

Does that seem right?

* Using 2012 league numbers for wOBA, Runs, and PA

When did the punchable face list ever have anything to do with play on the field or wishing someone harm? Sometimes guys just have faces that evoke a sense of revulsion.

( To be clear the "wRC" in that table is just for 75 PA)

Apparently the Phils are still hard after Ichiro. Yanks look like they'll sign them, but special advisor Gillick is still lusting for him.

Why?

He's old and is no longer good.

That would be the weakest and worst outfield in the Majors next season if they signed him.

Harper belongs on the list, as does Larry Jones. I respect Jones - great player, Phillies killer - but he has a very punchable face, and that's what the list is all about.

Harper and Jones both belong on the list, and Freddy Freeman is starting to build up "Punchability Points" as well, though he might not have enough to make the list yet.

"When did the punchable face list ever have anything to do with .. wishing someone harm?"

I... don't.. understand..

And the back of the envelope calc is that those 4 runs would be worth roughly half a win over 20 games, Pythagorically.

And I guess that's makes some kind of sense, Half a win over 20 games = 4 wins over 160 games. And Josh is worth at least +4 fWAR more than Mayberry for a season (given Bill James optimism)

I think it's time for the Phillies to put Gillick out to pasture. The Phillies are a team which already has 5 outfielders, including 3 left-handed ones. They are also a team which needs both power & OBP. For them to be going "hard" after Ichiro is certifiably nuts.

MickO, I'm not that familiar with the "w's" so I'll leave the commentary to others.

There is one thing, though, that I've not seen any sabr guy account for, and I'm not sure it CAN be accounted for: lineup presence.

I'll put it in question form: With a Swisher in the lineup, do opposing managers, bench coaches and pitchers plan their strategies knowing they're going to have to face a particular batter later in the game? I would argue "yes".

For instance, knowing that Utley/Howard were in the lineup and likely to get AB in late innings, how many opposing managers would burn their LOOGY in middle innings knowing th eLOOGY might be needed late in the game?

That's just one possible scenario, but there are many others.

So, with Swisher lurking in the lineup as opposed to Mayberry - any team's lineup - it could possibly affect the overall strategy a manager employs in those games - that affects the outcome - that doesn't necessarily show up in their individual numbers.

I am on record here, though, taking the position that if money is no object I'd prefer that they sign Hamilton.

bap, this is pure speculation, but maybe they had a deal on the table to move Nix contingent on signing Ichiro.

Or, they are willing to cut him and eat the money.

They've shown themselves quite willing to Eaton money if they thought it would make the team better, and doesn't make nearly as much as Eaton or Jenkins.

Yeah I was just interested in the debate between Fats and Lincoln and the idea that losing a star outfielder (Hamilton) for 20 games wouldn't make any difference between the Phillies making/missing the playoffs.

I think it could be worth half a win. So, possibly significant. Or not.

"and NIX doesn't make nearly as much as Eaton or Jenkins."

awh: Needless to say, I would not be offended if they dumped Nix. But the larger point is that they need power & OBP, and Ichiro provides neither.

awh- I think they have a lot of things on the table, actually, contingent upon whether or not they get Hamilton. They don't want to take that possibility off the table by signing Ross or something else significant. Hell, they might even immediately turn to Swisher.

If they don't land Hamilton, I expect a lot of moves soon after. I think the next 'move' hinges on what he decides.

I haven't been reading the threads - but I'm going to go waaaaaaaay out on a limb and predict that some Debbie Downers in these here parts have actually been fretting about the possible acquisition of Hamilton - a freakin' monster/potentially season-changing player that could put propel the Phillies from being a pretty good team to being a championship contender.

Why people worry about the Phillies spending their own money to get players that are fun to watch is something I'll never understand.

Let's go back to the good ol' days when we had lousy players and didn't pay them any money, right?

Phlipper, read the friggin thread before lambasting the entire community. There have been lots of reasonable discussions about Hamilton vs. Swisher.

Phlipper: I think most of the people you would probably call "Debbie Downers" would actually love to see us get Hamilton or Swisher. Most of the fretting -- including my own -- is about the fact that the Phillies probably won't get the former & don't even seem interested in the latter. They seem more interested in guys like Cody Ross, Alfonso Soriano, and Ichiro (which utterly boggles my mind).

I thing you go to $15m with Swisher, maybe $16m per year, any more than that is lunacy. Jayson Werth money was always a fantasy. If the difference between Swisher and Hamilton is $10-$12m a year, and signing Hamilton means you go cheap on the bullpen and rotation, then sign Swish. If you are willing to say, "F it" and go big on Hamilton and still spend money on the bullpen, then by all means, spend the money.

bap: That last sentence made me cringe so hard. I'd rather roll the dice with what we have then add any of those pieces. Ruf/Brown 2013!*


*if Rube doesn't supply Hamilton/Swisher

Can't wait to see the Phillies unveil the Brown-Revere-Ichiro outfield on Opening Day! They should hold a preseason press conference together. It'll be like a bizzaro 4 Aces.

I don't really understand why this team would add Ichiro and what that would mean for the rest of the offseason. That said, I thought this article on fangraphs -- about how Yankee stadium could help Ichiro's career - interesting, and who knows maybe CBP would be similar (without looking at what CBP does for LH pull hitters).

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/home-of-the-ichiro-power-swing/

mlbtr: "The New York Times says the Phillies were hard after Ichiro and could push the Yankees to offer two years"

I know we joked about this all offseason, but it actually does seem like Amaro is "in" on all types of players for the sake of making sure any team who does sign someone doesn't get a steal.

That'd be a pretty sweet strategy if true.

Does Ichiro have 400 more hits in him? What are the odds that he sniffs 3,000 hits?

"It'll be like a bizzaro 4 Aces. "

jbird, funny.

Also, Ichiro has missed one game in the past 3 seasons. Really a remarkable player. Don't want him here, but he's definitely one of the great players of our generation.

In the bizzaro 4 aces scenario can we at least sign Hamilton to fill the Joe Blanton role?

In fact, Ichiro has missed 33 games in his whole career! And 16 of those came in 2009. I wish I had been able to watch more Mariners games during his heyday.

Pure speculation (and probably incorrect), but if they did sign Ichiro, I could see the plan being to turn around and flip Brown for whatever useful pieces they could get. Not sure why else they'd even bother with Ichiro.

I'm not repulsed by him the way that BAP is, and I think he can still contribute and be a useful player for some team, but not this one. Where exactly is the power coming from? It makes no sense unless they ditch Brown and sign another big stick for LF.

If Ichiro shares some of his "special tea" with Chase Utley, it might be worth it...

Ichiro WAS amazing, but no longer is. I hope he sticks around long enough to reach 3000 hits. In all actuality, probably only needs 3 more seasons to do that. Just don't want any of those seasons to be in a Phillies uniform.

Iceman -- Revere has already signed. Someone in the FO would have had to chomp down on a handful of mushrooms before they validated any interest in Ichiro...

Although, Michael Martinez has hung around like a chronic infection over the last season... who really knows with the Phillies of late?

Did they "flame out" and enter bizarreo-world when they signed Pence for pretty good prospects; then left him in the lurch in a hastily-constructed salary dump? How about “double-clutching” on Lee?

Damn. Too strange.

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EST. 2005

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