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Saturday, December 08, 2012


Amaro really did "get creative" to fill the CF and 3B slots after all.

Even if Young is terrible defensively, I expect the number of "mental mistakes" to be fairly low. That's a small thing to look forward to, but should be noted for all the hand-wringing about that sort of thing this past season.


Figures I had just started to warm up to this deal, then I see that the unnamed prospect turns out to Lisalverto Bonilla. Really liked this kid. I'm pissed off now.

Good, low-risk/high reward move. And Mick O is right: like everyone was pining for, Amaro did in fact get creative and is left with money to spend.

From the last thread: Is it really a surprise that BAP and GTown think Revere is garbage? They think 95% of MLB players are garbage.

Like I said in the last thread, I like the infielders we have with Young in the mix. I am good with Fransden and Galvis playing utility roles and filling in where necessary. Hopefully, this keeps Mini Mart in the minors where he belongs.

Looks like a rehash of the Polanco move three years ago. I imagine that Galvis will get some reps at third in ST. Perhaps, he can be a late innings replacement.

Quietly, the Phillies got better against LHP.

Now, how are we going to improve the middle of the lineup?

Ice-Man: The comment re: BAP and Gtown wasn't funny in the last thread. Less so seeing it a second time.

Basically, we added a second Chase Utley; a veteran infielder with a strong work ethic whose best years are behind them, but still may have something left in the tank.

For $6 million dollars, the Phillies plugged a hole, added a right handed bat and ensured that Lindblom will never pitch in Philadelphia again. All things considered, this is a pretty big win.

Beats the hell out of overpaying Youk for what will likely be the least productive years of his career.

Yes, he's exactly like Utley, except for the parts where he can't hit for average, hit for power, field, draw walks, or run the bases.

I'm annoyed that Bonilla was the throw in. Between this move and last year's Santana throw in, it seems Rube doesn't scout the minors much.

My guess is that there's no big money right fielder on the horizon, ala Swisher. Maybe he sees Mayberry and Brown holding down right, while Ruf gets a shot in left. Or maybe Mayberry and Nix hold down right while Ruf and Brown cover left.

Either way, he needs to get at least one impact reliever for the eighth, even if he thinks Pettibone or Cloyd or value village can be the fifth starter.

He's got some money to play with now. I suppose everyone who thought they were going to rocket through the luxury cap is wondering what hit them. Frankly, I don't care what they spend. I only care that they put a quality team on the field.

Giving up Bonilla -- this guy is good
giving him up STUPID!!!!!! Really Dumb

Smart way to handle the one corner that will be filled in-house is to give Ruf and Brown as much ST PT as possible. We already know what Nix and Mayberry give us.

Posted by: clout | Saturday, December 08, 2012 at 01:46 PM

Clearly you aren't familiar with the Phillies. Ender Inciarte is a lock to get 100 ST ABs and most of the OF playing time.

I'm resoundingly unimpressed by Young, & cannot even begin to offer an unbiased opinion. So here's my question:

How much, if at all, should fans be concerned by Young's extreme reluctance to don a Phillies uniform, for just one year, even after Texas made it abundantly clear that they would be thrilled to get rid of him? ("Get him out of here! We'll throw in $10 million! And take LindBomb! Just make it happen!")

Yes, I do realize Young's family is in Texas, etc. etc.

My admittedly biased view: Best case scenario is that Young remembers how to hit & stays healthy, but his defense is still awful ... &, considering last season, at the position which was absolutely most in need of defensive help. And that's assuming Young is as much of a professional as has been touted, & doesn't let an unwanted trade affect his attitude.

This guy is a season removed from a .338 BA and a career high in RBI, and we're going to get upset about Lisalverto Bonilla? Past his prime or not, Michael Young is a big deal. He'll be a presence on this team.

Third base at CBP: the place where old guys go to get older.

With this deal we offset the youth we got in the revere trade with the not so Michael young

Sad Bonilla was included, but I doubted Lindblom was enough.

I'm fine with the deal. There wasn't much in the way of alternatives and it's a buy-low deal. We're likely on the 3b search next offseason unless Asche is legit.

Now let's get Hamilton.

Pretty pist the Bonilla is in this. Regardless of what ppl may think Young could do in 2013, the Rangers had absolutely 0 intention of playing him next year. The fact that we're taking him off their hands means we shouldn't have to dip into our farm and actually give up an arm with mlb promose.

With Aumont and DeFratus already in the bigs, Bonilla was the Phillies best bullpen prospect, by a wide margin. With DeFratus's arm problems and Aumont's control, you could even argue that Bonilla was going to surpass them if he didnt get injured during "horseplay" last year.

3rd has been a spot where you just get a guy and put him there for a lot of teams for a while now. For the better part of the last decade it's been Wright, Chipper, Rolen, Sandoval and a bunch of nobodies. This isn't the worst option.

This not Polanco all over again. Not even close. It's a one year deal for $6M for a should-hit, weak-glove guy.

We needed a coffin... Er, a tree. There are no lots open on Christmas Eve. Lewis burned down my tree so I replaced it as best I could. VoilĂ .

Good move. Lindblom is a middle reliever but he wasn't very good away from LA. And Bonilla isn't one of the Phillies top prospects. So we didn't give up a lot for him, and we're only paying 37% of his salary.

We're getting a 3B with some decent power. Young's a completely different hitter at Texas vs away, he's great at home and league average away, so I doubt he'll produce like he did earlier, but for 6 million for just 1 year? He's also not an injury liability, he can play the corners, it's just that he's a defensive liability. For a 1 year rental, this is a pretty good trade.

That still leaves RH outfield bat, relief pitcher, and starting pitcher as needs. I'd prefer they get a RH reliever first, then worry about the outfielder. There are a lot of SP reclamation projects that can be had on the cheap, and they've got about 15-19 million to play with.

Apparently Young was enticed to agree to the trade with a 1.2m benefit to offset the difference in state income tax between Texas and PA...who's on the hook for that? If its the Phil's, does it count towards the luxury tax? And in that case people need to stop saying "for 6 million dollars" and start saying 7.2 million.

When Young will done with the Phillies in a year, i i believe Bonilla will be entering the majors...
1.64 era 46 k 17b

Why not give them JCRamirez Instead

Agree with godfather. This move and the Revere move are part of the big picture. The Phillies filled too spots cheaply. They will have to spend for a power bat. They are able to do that now. We'll have to see if it works out.

I'm disappointed it's Bonilla, but people are really going to get worked up about a reliever prospect who's not in the plans for 2013. If it were a starter prospect, I'd be pissed.

Now sign Swisher, a reliever (Myers?) and low-risk, cheap starter.

The last few winters the moves very much stood on their own. The team had fewer obvious holes. This year it is much more of a puzzle.

I contend that Upton has become Rube's White Whale, not Hamilton. But, the question is, does he have enough pieces to land him?

We're paying Young almost as much as we paid Polly. I gather his defense will be a drop-off from Polly's, that he'll (hopefully) play more games, and that he should hit better.

I have no idea how well he'll hit or how poorly he'll field. I hope he does a lot better than Frandsen would, since we're spending $6 million. (I also don't know what to expect of Frandsen at the plate in 2013.)

I'm ok with this. It's no sure thing to pan out, but I'd rather have Young for one year / 6 million (or 7.2) than the money and years given out to players like Scutaro, Keppinger, Chavez and soon to be Youklis. The Phillies shouldn't place a premium on relief prospects, and I'm fine with giving up Bonilla. There's a decent chance Young is below league average, but at the price, it's worth it to see if he can capture 80% of his 2011.

Why is Bonilla being called a "throw in"? He's not a throw in.

Keep this in mind:

The Phils won the WFC with Pedro Feliz [.249/.302/.402, 82 OPS+] manning the hot corner.

At the age of 36, Young should be adequate, and at least give as much or more value than Feliz or Polanco, mostly by just being on the field.

Remember, Polly only played in 90 games last season.

Bill "the Optimist" James project Young at .294/.343/.416 for 2013.

Wouldn't that be nice!?

Is Young tall enough to play 3B though? (Sarcastic tone)

The good news is they filled 3B and CF for $6.5MM - for ONE year.

Pretty shrewd, if you ask me, and I'm one of the biggest FO critics on this board.

Bonilla and May,check back in 3 years. Anybody left on the farm, for Rube to give away?
For 6 millon 7.2,whatever, he'll need to do alot to give more than the .300 + Fransden gave,even if he did over perform.
Looks like Texas outsmarted someone. Got rid of your old overpaid player,cut Lindblom and at worst have a potential closer for the forseeable future. Did I mention make 6 mill?

Young had the 2nd lowest WAR in all of baseball last year (Francoeur). I don't expect him to be that bad in 2013, but Young is far from a safe bet to be better than the slew of other crappy options out there.

Yeah I am going to get upset about a reliever who is not in our plans for this coming season. The kid has great stuff. We have seen what a detriment a poor bullpen is. Bonilla would have provided a long term solid option at the back end of our bullpen for years to come. IMO that is significantly more valuable than a 36 year old 3B who seems very reluctant to come here and does not want to resign.

With all of the genuine prospects that this team has traded away (most of whom haven't worked out), are we really concerned with the loss of Lisa-whats-his-name Bonilla?

He could work out to become a league average middle reliever at the major league level in a year or two. And if so, who cares.

Young has every bit as good of a chance to come back and have an offensively productive season as Utley or Howard, and looking at their career numbers, Young is the most productive of the three with the fewest injuries.

If this was a major investment in time, money or prospects, I'd be less optimistic, but for 6 million bucks (or even 7) and one season, you really have to get creative to see this as a negative.

If he boots a few balls at 3B and Frandsen comes in as a defensive replacement once in a while, I can live with that.

Did someone say "horseplay"?

YOung actually played every position in the OF last season, even loggin 33 innings at SS.

Should Freddie Galvis be worried?

Damn, should have said "...every position in the IF."

awh: The difference being that in '08 the Phillies had a a starting OF w/ OPS+ of 125, 107 & 122. Young's career avg. OPS+ is 104. And let's not forget Pete was also an excellent defensive 3B. I'll echo b_a_p's contention that filling roster spots on the cheap only matters if the players in question produce. Otherwise they're just cheap.

Don't know if this is a good trade or not, nobody does. But for all of you bitching, how many have actually seen Bonilla pitch? In person, for that matter?

Cheapness also matters if the money saved is used on a productive player elsewhere. This is the bigger question left to be answered.

Now we can do some signings now.

I think having Rollins, Utley, Young, Fransden and Galvis on the same team. It's an above average group of guys, some of whom play multiple positions. Howard will play almost every game at first and having Ruf as a natural first baseman who hits for power from the right side behind him means you can field a reasonably good or better infield every game. Mini Mart and Orr stay in the minors where they belong but can be called up for a short time if necessary.

could care less about Lindblom but from what was written about Bonilla, he's supposed to have a live arm and projected to be a good late inning reliever. Ruben seems to be paying full retail and then some for Revere and Young. Color me unimpressed thus far -- there better be some very signficant FA signings now

"It appears it will be Texas paying the $1.2 million in benefits to Young. The Phillies have also agreed to give Young a full no-trade clause."

Everyone keeps saying Bonilla is the throw in. I think Lindblom would be the throw in. Either way, who cares that they are gone. And stop already with "wheres the power coming from?" questions. Howard supplys 30-35 HRs, Utley and Rollins should both be in the area of 20HRs a piece, Chooch, Young, Mayberry, Brown, and maybe even Ruf should all provide 10-15 HRS each. Nix has potential off the bench, as do Brown, Ruf, whoever ends up there. I think we'll be fine with our power. Everyones crying that we're giving up prosects, but then they say sign hamilton or swisher. well there goes our highest draft pick in years. i just dont understand most people.

For anyone who hates grabbing Young, the options at this point are Youkilis, who's an injury liability, just as bad defensively, giving up the farm for Chase Headley (to the point where, in an incredibly weak 3B market, no trades have been even rumored), and maybe Izturis (whom you'd have to commit to for the same money and more years). And Young is definitely a better option than Keppinger or Chavez. Keppinger has no power to speak of, Chavez is the biggest injury liability in the market, and both are worse hitters for the past 3 years than Young.

I think he's the best option of everyone who was out there, and we're paying just 6 million for him. Plus we gave up a righty specialist in Lindblom who's not very good, and a relief prospect.

Say that to yourself again, RELIEF PROSPECT. Not a starting pitcher, not a touted everyday player. A relief prospect. And just about the easiest thing to find is a bullpen pitcher. It's not like this guy was being talked about as another bigtime closer. This guy was so far down the food chain he wasn't in the org's plans for the bullpen in 2013.


Source believes Phillies still primed to do something "big." Anything from pursuing Hamilton to a late Greinke run to trade for outfielder.

Is Raul Ibanez a big thing?

As a fan who was force fed MiniMart for two years, I am rejoicing as though it were nearly Christmas.

I'm with you, Ted. This pushes Mini Mart into the minors where he belongs.

Good trade - Michael Young probably was waiting for a no-trade clause to be added by Amaro rather than reluctant to leave where he was no longer wanted. Look for that 10 million dollar gift from Texas going to a proven 4th starter so KK can move to his natural #5 slot. Or maybe you use Young to convince Josh Hamilton to join the Phils....The team was going to be infinitely better by Howard and Utley starting the season healthy, but they improved on that already with these two trades, as long as an imprvement over Worley is procured.

"Apparently Young was enticed to agree to the trade with a 1.2m benefit to offset the difference in state income tax between Texas and PA..."

Since it appears every major leaguer is now worth at least $6 million, Texas and Florida teams would seem to have a large and growing advantage over Calif. and NY teams when it comes to acquiring and retaining ballplayers. At the very least the luxury tax limits should be on a sliding scale based on local taxation rates.

curt - unless your jersey says Marlins and they know you are immediately going to be traded away to a state with higher taxes as soon as the press release ink is dry....

Dam Rube Bonilla,WTF?

Yeah, death of Mini Mart on the team should be enough to get people cheering.

I think that Rube's going to make some key acquisitions now and make these trades really worth it. The big splash is yet to come.

I don't know much about Bonilla, but after all the talk about fungible relievers, unpredictability, some of the objections ring hollow. You have to give up *something* to get something, and people act like other team's are dumb and don't see our junk for what it is. Young may stink by he has upside and the Rangers are throwing over $10M for him to play for some other team. Guess that's what a fungible reliever and a hot arm, relief prospect are worth.

I'm glad FO took that gamble. Young has a 2/3 chance of adding value to this club.

I saw Bonilla pitch in person a few times in 2011 in Lakewood. I do not think it is necessarily easy, as some on this board may, to find a good bullpen pitcher at a low cost. It is important to fill bullpen positions with capable arms on low cost contracts in order to be able to allocate the funds elsewhere around the club. I like Michael Young. I like him for this year. But I would rather have a long term, solid, cheap back-end bullpen piece for years to come, especially with the great stuff that I believe he has.

Mav-erick: I was stating a fact. Not meant to be funny. They are two BLers who think almost every player is garbage and there's absolutely no gray area at all. It isn't funny- it's pathetic.

Ok, it looks like the Phils are serious about winning in 2013 and not looking too terribly far beyond that. The question is whether they feel they have enough now or whether they plan to do something bigger than they've done so far during this offseason.

In years past, Rube has made his big signing and filled in the other pieces later. This year, he's gotten creative in addressing two of the four big needs the club has, and barely paid 6 million doing it.

Whether or not a big signing is on the horizon, I'm glad he shifted his approach to make sure the littler things were taken care of before going after any white whales. It also explains why he only offered 5/55 to Upton: he didn't feel he had to overpay him to do what he wanted to do.

Now there is money left over to make a big signing without being left to cover other issues by signing the Ty Wiggintons or Chad Quallses of the world. I'm in the camp that believes a decent-sized contract will still be doled out by the FO before spring training, but even if they decide to spread the money out, they've kept their options open to improve the team. It's only a bad thing if you think they're done now.

As for the signings themselves, I think there's an argument to be made that new blood helps reinvigorate a team, though there is no statistic to measure this. More than any year before, last year looked like the Phils could really benefit from an injection of new blood. With Revere, you have one of the fastest and more exciting players in the game- a spark plug. With Young you have a veteran that was loved by his teammates and one of the most notorious 'good clubhouse guys' in all of baseball. At the very least, they've really changed things up instead of reshuffling the deck with a guy like Victorino.

"Ok, it looks like the Phils are serious about winning in 2013 and not looking too terribly far beyond that."

I'm really not sure how the acquisitions of Revere and Young suggest this.

No havent seen Bonilla pitch. Though i heard good things about him. Even if anyone of us did i dont think there are any pro-scouts posting on Bl'ers who could determine for sure if he was MLB material. Sheez not even the pro-scouts can. Let alone someone posting on a blog. I like Young though i think he will be a decent fit for us. Im Ok with this deal and prefer this than the Youklis cat. If we can secure that elusive 8th inning guy and a quality 3/4 guy i think we are good to go. Of course there is still room for Rube to make his big splash.

Wonder if Lee gave Young a call to convince him to come over for a year. If so, having a friendly face around could be a great asset to his woes about moving.

Surprised they didn't include Schwimer in that package instead of Bonilla.

I like both trades denfensive minded CF and a proven gritty SL/SF type hitter, but it is imperative that we sign a quality 8th inning guy. With all the "stuff" that went on last year, I think the BP is why we did not make the playoffs. Next step sign a setup guy and then go get Josh!

Setup man
4/5 starter

What if you can only afford 2 of these? Where do you spend the $$?

I say pitching.

Iceman: Pathetic is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I happen to think your toady-like, knee-jerk defense of every single thing the FO does is pathetic. To each his/her own.

(By the way, I did not refer to either Revere or Young as "garbage". You'll want to be wary of intruding upon clout's monopoly of lies & misrepresentations.)

"This pushes Mini Mart into the minors where he belongs."

limo, I ain't sure he even belongs there.

awh: I'm pretty sure you're sure he doesn't.

" long as an imprvement over Worley is procured."

Verdef, that may be BL fantasy on your part.

Look at my post earlier in the thread, and then find a FA SP who has the potential to be better than the numbers Vance Worley posted when healthy - who won't cost you a multi-year/multi-mil contract.

"Surprised they didn't include Schwimer in that package instead of Bonilla.

Posted by: Drsgon | Saturday, December 08, 2012 at 04:31 PM"

I'm sure the Rangers were clamoring for him!

"Surprised they didn't include Schwimer in that package instead of Bonilla.

Posted by: Drsgon | Saturday, December 08, 2012 at 04:31 PM"

"I'm sure the Rangers were clamoring for him!" - Bedrosian's Beard

Just making a little joke, my friend, try not to get so upset.

Cyclic, they have some good players already and they filled some obvious holes on the team with players who complement what they already have. But, just as importantly, you have to look at what they traded away and conclude that they are committed to winning in 2013. The question in my mind is whether the club thinks what they have now is enough or whether they intend to do a big FA acquisition to cement themselves as bona fide contenders.

Did anyone who rooted for the yankees care when they traded away all there prospects to try and win now. Come on guys we are an elite organization now so we need to win now. Who knows and cares at this point if May and Bonilla will be good in 3 yrs. There are guys younger than May making it to the bigs and he barely survived a AA season. I like Bonilla too but guys like Cliff Lee And Doc could care less. WIN NOW!!

Bonilla wasn't the throw-in. Bonilla was the real prospect/player in the deal. Thought there was a remote chance of him even maybe even making the club this year until he broke his hand fooling around before the Eastern League All-Star game.

Liked Bonilla a lot out of all the relievers at Reading last year. Better than Simon and certainly Knigge (classic flame thrower with highly erratic control) and Friend (pedestrian stuff).

Whether or not a big signing is on the horizon, I'm glad he shifted his approach to make sure the littler things were taken care of before going after any white whales.

We're whalers, Mr Ashley!

As for the deal, I look at Young as a $6M lottery scratch off ticket. Chavez was a $3M one but one that was had worse odds of paying out simply because he can't stay on the field.

If Young gives the Phils a .750 OPS and ~12 HRs without slightly below average defense at 3B, this was a good deal by Amaro.

If Young gives the Phils a .700 OPS or under with >10 HRs and poor/horrendous defense, then the Phils will have wasted $6M that could have been redirected to more productive uses.

I don't have a clue how this will all turn out but this has been a very interesting period for the Phillies. It certainly seems as if another shoe will drop but this is quite a departure for Rube. Rube has been the baddest cat in the jungle when all he had to do was write a check. We all knew that he had to go a different route this time and he has. If it works out, even the haters should be impressed. Pretty interesting either way.

This deal isn't like Wigginton redux either. Wigginton was a guy who was coming 3 consecutive subpar offensive years in a row where his road numbers outside of hitter-friendly parks (Camden Yards, Coors) were anemic.

Wigginton was also a guy with even worse defensive figures too.

Young is also a guy who is noted for being in good shape which can't hurt for a guy in his mid-30s.

TBF, Young's road numbers are no great shakes. No sure thing here, but this is a solid gamble.

Bonilla...interesting Rube.

The question is whether Young's BAbip drop last year is luck related or age related or if playing outside of Arlington is going to hurt his BAbip as well. But even if his road BAbip over the last few years (in tough parks) he can still be a solid player, and CBP is friendly for SLG.

Wow. People are upset at losing a guy with 33 innings in relief at AA? What kind of realistic chance does Lisalverto (as good as he's been) have of even making the majors? I'd love to see an actuarial table on that.

Of course, I'd recommend that our new third baseman be named "Michael Old" from now on.

Anyone who thinks that this trade has an upside other than Martinez staying down under is as pathetic as this trade is.

Oh yes Young getting a no trade clause? Is this a joke?

The NTC is meaningless. If he plays well, we wont want to trade him, if he sucks, we wont be able to.

If you go to Phuture Phillies, they're acting as if we traded Mo Rivera.

"Of course, I'd recommend that our new third baseman be named "Michael Old" from now on."

Andy, not to nitpick, but it's spelled Olt.

NEPP - That site has become sheer garbage the last year. Not even worth reading anymore.

Ever since the actual founder (cant even remember his name at this point) gave it up, its pure trash. THere's this a$$ that goes by "Larry M" who acts as a know-it-all in every thread they have and he's a freaking idiot. Every single one of our prospects is a future Hall of Famer in his eyes.

Its a shame because it used to be one of the best if not the best minor league site for a farm system in MLB.

donc, wasn't he making a joke about Young's age?

Cyclic: I believe he was. And I was making a play on words. I'm most certain Andy got it. Pretty cool to have two choices at 3B where you can go Young or Olt.

I liked the Revere move and was indifferent to this one.

Waiting for the other moves that Amaro makes because these moves were to set up those up. Not expecting another blockbluster move or even a guy like Swisher necessarily.

Phils do need a veteran RHP reliever (bummed that they didn't get Uehara) and another starter. Cloyd/Pettibone are okay options to have as necessary guys to slot into the rotation but I really don't want Amaro penciling them in for 28-30 GS out of spring training either as the 5th starter.

Ideally I would like to see a veteran starter, veteran RHP reliever, and a corner OF who bats RH or even LH who would be an upgrade over Nix.

BedBeard: Exactly right. Bonilla was the key to the deal. Lindblom was the throw in.

Heisenberg: Are you certain of that?

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