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Tuesday, December 04, 2012


The money being thrown about this offseason is ridiculous.

Guthrie's contract, League's contract, Feldman, Marquis, Soto, Baker, Victorino, Russell Martin, Pettitte...

I'm scared.

Last thread, Thornburg: "Actually, I would be fine with platooning Mayberry in CF--but Rube just non-tendered the ideal CF platoon partner for RFD, Schierholtz."

This is a joke, right?

Gomez is still on ESPN blabbing about Lee for Upton.

"@Buster_ESPN: Rival officials believe that the Red Sox are laying the groundwork for a trade of Jacoby Ellsbury, for the pitching they need."

dun dun DUN

Nothing to be scared about as the Phils haven't done anything. And money is the crux of the problem. They only guy they've paid was Upton. They didn't and didn't get him. The only guy who's difference maker they should pay is Hamilton and they won't due to age, injury history & baggage. Let's face it, unless something totally unforeseen happens, we won't be good enough to win the East and that's they only way we make the playoffs.

Let's face it, unless something totally unforeseen happens, we won't be good enough to win the East and that's they only way we make the playoffs.

Posted by: DPat | Tuesday, December 04, 2012 at 08:47 PM

Breathe into the paper bag.

DPat- is that really you, and if so, why the name change?

If it's you, hope you're enjoying your vacation. You're missing some weird 60-degree weather here up north.

Willing to take a 'wait and see approach' until next week although Amaro's options in CF certainly have become very limited via FA.

If Amaro hasn't done really anything by the end of next week, that's a real issue because the option will likely have started to get real thing by thin in the FA market.

Rube has been dangling a couple arms to Boston for Ellsbury. But had to BoSox wouldn't budge until they got Vic. Now Rube makes his move ... Huge upgrade for us if this works.

Let the Red Sox trade Ellsbury to someone else. For all the angst about Bourn and a guy on the wrong side of 30 relying on his legs being a bad idea- Ellsbury is not that far off of that AND you would have to give up assets to acquire him.

In 2008 he swiped 50 bases and in 2009 he swiped 70. He was injured in 2010 and then in 2011 he saw his OBP jump to his highest as an everyday player and his stolen bases cut almost in half. Yes 70 was a hard number to hit, but he couldn't hit 50, even with getting on base more.

In 2008 he swiped bags at an 82% rate. In 2009 he swiped them at 85%. In 2011 that was down to a 72% rate. Seems to be going in the wrong direction. And the 32 home runs in 2011 screams of a huge aberration.

Phils should have re-signed Vic. Oh, well. Slim pickins this year.

Who goes to Florida and posts on an Internet blog?

My guess is that Mickey and Minnie are DPatrone's sources.

Ice~ Yep it's me. I'm using a laptop and I shortened the name is all. I read where they're in the mix for Scott Hairston. How does he make them better if they were to get him? See what I mean?

Truth Injection, you forget that Ellsbury hits free agency after this year--Bourn, we'd have to sign for probably five years or so. As a rental, Ellsbury makes a certain degree of sense, giving our various CF prospects (Gillies? who knows?) another year to develop and keeping us from having to tie up a lot of money long-term. I would move Worley for Ellsbury (who, incidentally, hits .292 vs. LHP and 250 vs. RHP, so his left-handedness wouldn't be a big issue--if someone explains reverse platoon splits to Cholly).

Just throwing this out possible would a three-way trade with BOS-AZ-PHI be that netted us Ellsbury and Upton? Something like:

PHI gets: Ellsbury, Upton
BOS gets: Cliff Lee
ARI gets: Brown, May, De La Rosa/Webster, Boegarts

I admittedly have zero clues how the prospects going to AZ are actually valued, but they get the SS they want along with Brown to 'replace' Upton, and pitching talent...Boston gets a front-line starter with 3 years left on his deal...Phils fill both OF holes, shed salary, and sign, say, Dempster, to replace Lee.

Maybe I've had too much scotch.

Whine and Cheese - Phils should have resigned Vic at 3 yr/$39M? Hell no.

I think Boston would just keep Upton as Boegarts is the centerpiece of that deal.

I would not give up Lee for a rental like Ellsbury--and I can't fathom the continual Upton obsession, especially from a poster (Iceman) who seems to think the very similar Hunter Pence deserves to be drummed out of baseball. Worley and a pitching prospect for Ellsbury would sound all right to me; I'd still try and pick up Youk for RH power and possibly get Ross or Hairston to help out in RF.

TTI~ You're such an A$$! Right now, I'm just waiting for people to get back so we can have some fun. Grow up. Just 'cause I'm on vacation, doesn't mean I'm not interested on what 's happening. Or what's not. Why I'm I even answering you? You're not even in my league as far as knowledge about this team goes. I was right about them last year and I may be right about them now. Unless they get impact players they'll go nowhere. I told you before, talk about what you know, don't debate me. You'll lose every time, but then you already know that.

Ellsbury's numbers are just so all over the place that it's tough to evaluate him at all. I don't even know what a fair asking price would be for him as he only has one year left on his deal. 92 games combined in 2010/2012. All-world year in 2011. Speed seems to be down slightly. Noodle arm.

Jbird- I'm not understanding Olney if BOS needs pitching NOW, or just want young pitching depth that will be good in a year or two. If it's now, I'd think they'd want Lee rather than Upton. But it's obviously all speculation. That's a trade a pulled completely out of my a*s.

I'm speaking for millions of Phillies fans. We do not want Cliff Lee traded - period!

If you trade Worely, don't you have to turn around and sign a new 4th starter? Not that I wouldn't do it, but it does kinda mitigate the savings involved in trading for a player instead of paying a FA.

Allen: And if you bring in a guy for next year and no center fielders take a step forward in the system you are stuck with another off-season of searching for a centerfielder.

If it were me (and keep in mind I have no idea what the guys will command on the open market when all is said and done) free agent wise:

I would try to sign Ross to play center and Swisher to play in right. Ross is a risky proposition in center but he can field the position and will be better than Mayberry out there and the slop he throws up. Ross in center would allow you some room for movement in 2014 and 2015. If a guy like Gillies takes a step forward then you can let a guy like Mayberry walk or make Brown or Ruf expendable for whatever help they bring.

Swisher can man right field and on days when Howard needs a blow he could slide into first and provide some pop there. Swisher and Ross would probably add enough pop too that you could deal with Frandsen/Galvis at third base.

(If we are mixing trades and free agency I would trade for Fowler and sign Swisher)

That would give you a lineup that consists of something like this:


If you traded for Fowler instead of Ross, I would slot Fowler first and move Rollins to the 6 hole.

(Two notes: 1.) I have no idea what the lineup tools say would be the best order of those guys. Just put up one way to construct the lineup. 2.) I readily admit I have always been a big fan of Nick Swisher and would love him on the Phillies.)

Why I'm I even answering you? You're not even in my league as far as knowledge about this team goes. I was right about them last year and I may be right about them now. Unless they get impact players they'll go nowhere. I told you before, talk about what you know, don't debate me. You'll lose every time, but then you already know that.

Posted by: DPat | Tuesday, December 04, 2012 at 09:11 PM


Thanks! I needed a good laugh. And you didn't predict anything about the team last year. You can say over and over again that the offense killed playoff chances this year but that will never make it correct. The pitching staff last year was the problem.

TTI - Ellsbury is a guy worth trading for but not that much as a 1-yr rental and a guy who will probably be at $9-$10M this year.

Agree his '11 season was a fluke but he still an above average defender who I think could give the Phils a .750 OPS or so with 10 HRs in CF next year.

I wouldn't worry that much about his production as his ability to share healthy though & on the field for 150+ G. Ellsbury had shoulder and leg issues almost all last year. Missed a lot of time 2 of the last 3 years too.

I would almost the Phils go after a guy like Willingham instead and slate Mayberry in CF if absolutely necessary.

And just to show you numbers so you can argue against facts.

2011 Phillies- 713 runs scored, 529 allowed

2012 Phillies- 684 runs scored, 680 allowed.

They scored 29 less runs with Utley and Howard for basically half a season. They allowed 150 more runs.

Can you imagine how bad defensively an OF of Ross in CF with Brown in RF and Ruf in LF would be?

I don't want this team to sign Ross to a 3-yr deal of any kind.

Cody, I mean Betsy Ross? Not a chance in hell. I'd give up my right field seats if the Phils picked up that idiot.

Can Ross play CF full-time?

MG: Which is why I said you would sign Swisher too. Ross/Ruf/Brown would be maybe something you see once a week.

Also- just a hunch on Ross- he may be able to be had on a 2 year deal.

Of the two scenarios I mentioned though, I am much more in the camp of trading for Fowler and then signing Swisher.

Sophist: He could, but it wouldn't be ideal probably from a defensive standpoint.

Yeah I hope they don't do that.

Ellsbury's 2011 season screams fluke at best, and cheater at worst. But we don't really know, and the mere fact that it happened is reason enough to make him a very interesting guy to look at. The risk is huge, but so is the upside.

Upton since 09: .286/.362/.485/.846, 91 HR, 77 SB/30 CS, 122 OPS+

Pence since 09: .282/.340/.464:.804, 96 HR, 45 SB/24 CS, 117 OPS+

Not sure on defense since metrics can be deceiving, but I can't imagine Upton being worse than Pence- and from what I'm reading he is actually pretty solid in RF.

The big difference, of course, is Upton being five years younger, and his age 21-24 age seasons have been better than Pence's 26-29. And he'll make less than Pence this year, and is under contract for three more seasons.

Never said Pence should be 'drummed out of baseball,' whatever that means, but if you think he's a better player, value, or bet going forward than Upton, you are smoking something.

Now I realize why RAJ sniffed at Vic... $13mm AAV is really rich for such an erratic player. I wonder if Vic settles down as he gets older?

Maybe JMJ is a platoon CF. He's not that bad.

But please, please NO Cody Ross. I can still see that little POS hopping like a go88damm leprechaun after at least 2 of the 3 HRs he hit in '10 NLCS.

Cody bleepin’ Ross hit 2 off Doc in the '10 NLCS. Makes my skin crawl just thinking of it.

Pass on Swisher and his wanting a 5 year, 75 million deal at 32 with his whopping career .169 ba and .589 ops and 8 rbis in postseason.

Rockies about to get Wilton Lopez.

Watch him be lockdown next year.

I'll officially go on record and say I would trade for Fowler and sign Swisher to play right. That to me gives you a nice mix in the outfield with Mayberry/Brown and Ruf to play left and fill in as bats off the bench.

A lot of names get thrown around as centerfielders.

FWIW, Schierholtz CANNOT play CF as an everyday player. Might have the arm, but not the range. Mayberry has the range, but hasn't shown the skills, but if he works on it he might be league average. Ross used to be an above average CF. He is now below average there.

The only reason J. Upton isn't in CF is because ARZ had one of the best in baseball in Chris Young. Upton would be an above average CF.

Rosenthal says Phils are kicking the tires on Dexter Fowler. Says he's a fallback option to Bourn..Wasn't aware Bourn was RAJ's first choice.

Marlins are all-in on rebuilding and I like a lot of the young players they've brought in. laytest is dealing Escobar, who has acharacter issues and is 30, for prospect Derek Dietrich.

Dietrich, 22, jumped two levels this year and his stats held steady. He's mostly played SS, but doesn't have the range to play it in MLB, so he'll be at 2B or 3B.

He's got some plate discipline issues, but he also projects 15-20 HR power.

There's noise on Twitter about Curtis Granderson being dealt. Am I nuts to think about a Granderson-for-Doc swap? Both guys are in the final years of their contracts, and the salaries aren't far off (Granderson $15M, Doc $20M).

If Lopez pitches the entire year without a DL stint and this team has a ton of issues regarding health this year again, this team needs to fire Dr. Ciccotti as the head team physician and get a new medical director.

Too many high-profile screwups for them lately.

"I'm speaking for millions of Phillies fans. We do not want Cliff Lee traded - period!"

Someone could write a fascinating sociological research paper on the love affair that Philadelphia has with Cliff Lee. I love Lee, too--I think he's an awesome pitcher, and seems like a cool dude, and I like that he wanted to be here.

But he's pitched here for 2.5 seasons. That's it. To hear some people, you would think he was a franchise icon like Mike Schmidt (who of course famously got booed throughout his career). Heck, Cole Hamels has been here his entire career and actually won a WS (as MVP) for the city, and you get the feeling people would rather ship Cole out of town than Cliff Lee.

None of this is to imply that I *don't* love Cliff Lee. I'm merely commenting on the nature of Philadelphia fans that they've taken to the guy like no other player in recent memory of the franchise, even guys who have played far longer and achieved far more with the team.

ColonelTom: If Tyler Cloyd is ready for prime time, that would be a smart move.

There's just one small problem with that, however...

Clout - there are still plenty of free-agent pitchers out there to replace Doc. Anibal Sanchez would be an intriguing option, and I think I'd sooner pay big bucks for him than Michael Bourn.

There's still plenty of time to make impact moves for Amaro.

But I think what's clear to most people is that Amaro can't do *nothing*. The team isn't good enough. I don't think you can go into the season planning to jump from 81 wins to 91 based on health and better luck, especially when Chooch is already missing for 25+ games (I say "plus" because I'm not sure he can do a rehab assignment while suspended--you'd think the team would have him play a few minor-league games before coming back).

It's still early--I have faith Amaro will make some moves. I echo someone above that trading for Fowler and signing Swisher seems like a logical series of moves at this point. And I've obviously been saying it's fine to play it more cautiously with the bullpen.

But you have to do something with the lineup--there's too many positional holes. If you're going to do nothing, then you need to just go ahead and sell and rebuild. Standing pat with the lineup is the worst possible move.

Ship out Halladay and bring in Sanchez to replace him. Interesting plan.

Amaro's doing what many of us said he should - he's waiting out the market. I like the strategy. We'll see if I still like it in a couple of months.

You know who I like a lot, that would be a good, affordable fit for RF here if they were right-handed instead of left-handed (and even still, I would take them)?

Will Venable, of the Padres. He's quietly got a very nice skill set, and I think he would have a big year in CBP, outside of San Diego. He's arb eligible now, and San Diego has a top RF prospect in Rymer Liriano who is knocking on the door out there.

I don't know what it would take to get him, but if it weren't much, he'd be a nice bargain pickup, and an upgrade over what we have now. Not a lot of power, I know, but it's tough to tell how much of that is Petco--he's slugged .455 for his career on the road.

Just a thought.

The idea, by the way, would not be that Venable is the marquee addition of the offseason. It was solely because I don't see the team spending big on multiple positions. So if you signed Bourn, and didn't have much money left, you could get Venable for someone like Worley (or less) and fill out your lineup that way.

Still leaves a hole at 3B, of course.

Per Jayson Stark:

Chase Utley's agent, Joel Wolfe, describes Utley as a man on a mission this winter: "If the season started in 2 weeks, he'd be ready to go."

Besides #Phillies CF void, they also need RF & 3B. Ruben Amaro Jr. told me the other day he can probably only afford one, not both of above

If that is the case 3B is a no brainer and Utley being on the field for a full season (~150 games) would be as important as any move the Phils make this offseason.

I love the idea of getting Venable, but I'm not sure what the Phils could offer in return. San Diego's quietly putting together a pretty good young team. They need starting pitching, which with San Diego's limited budget would probably mean the Phils giving up Worley - and I don't think they'll trade Worley unless they're getting a long-term CF or 3B in return.

Scutaro resigns with SF, 3 years, $20M. One more 3B option off the market.

Cholly's interview today had a few interesting tidbits:

- Strong insistence that JRoll could be a good No. 2 hitter 'because he is a switch-hitter' if they got Bourn
- How vehemently he insisted this isn't his last year coaching

MG - Interesting on Utley.
His off season regimen must be a tightrope walk between making sure he's ready and making sure he's not putting too much wear & tear on himself before the 162 game grind begins.
Here's hoping he finds that balance, we sure as hell need him with all the question marks elsewhere on this team.

Hats off to all of our posters exclusively using smartphones. What a chore!!!!

Do the deal for Bourn, Ruben. You get yourself a natural lead off hitter and an elite center fielder.

I agree with Delco Fan and limoguy - Sign Bourn and Keep Lee - good offseason....

If they trade Worley wouldnt they need another starter at more $$$. Not that i wouldnt be opposed to trading Worley for the right player. This is assuming Rube/Phillies wouldnt mind spending more money to sign another starter to replace Worley. Such a player probably be no better than Worley. I dont know that Cloyd is ready to take on the 5th starter or any other internal candidate that is ready.

At this point, they need to sign an impact player to get back in the NL East race - like it or not, they need to sign Josh Hamilton.

Emilio bonafacio available? Color me interested

Just hold out for Giancarlo Stanton, Ricky Nolasco, Logan Morrison and even Scum of the Earth Marlins' owner Loria's own son-in-law David Samson since all are available if Loria can find someone to fill the jobs cheaper to continue robbing the other 29 MLB owners through profit-sharing and the tax payers of South Florida with the stadium he promised he would fill with major-league caliber talent for a change....

Anybody know what exactly Colorado is asking for Fowler? I know they want pitching, so I guess they would want Worley, plus ???

Rockies like Worley. Not sure if they would trade Fowler for Worley straight up. The Phils might have to give them more.

***Chase Utley's agent, Joel Wolfe, describes Utley as a man on a mission this winter: "If the season started in 2 weeks, he'd be ready to go." ***

So he'll be worn down by April then?

***Besides #Phillies CF void, they also need RF & 3B. Ruben Amaro Jr. told me the other day he can probably only afford one, not both of above ***

That's some impressive long-term planning by Ruben. His non-fiction novel How To Run an MLB Franchise Into The Ground is due in bookstores next Tuesday in case anyone wants to pre-order.

You'd think a cost-controlled young starter would be a fair price for a guy like Dexter Fowler.

NEPP's book Gullible's Travels: I Believe Everything GM's say Word for Word is due in stores the same day.

It takes serious balls to white knight for Rube at this point.

Good job Ruben. You've learned patience; i.e., the ability to countdown before blastoff.

I suspect we wont know at least 1 of our starters until February or even early March at this point with Rube simply waiting until guys get desperate.

I realy hope that's what he's doing.

NEPP: I am not white knighting for Ruben at all. I am just saying that if you take everything a GM says at face value you are being naive.

GM's need to keep things close to the vest. That gets mistaken as being aloof on here.

Also, as Meyer pointed out (perhaps sarcastically) one of the main criticisms of Amaro on here has been that he is too quick to jump the gun. This off-season he has laid back and let the market set. There are still plenty of options out there and I believe he is working at something.

Also, reading between the lines of his comment he says they probably can't afford a RF and a 3B in addition to adding a CF. That to me says that maybe they can't free agent both of those positions but they might be able to afford that if they make a trade to fill a spot cheaply.

Why not deal Worley and Brody Colvin for Fowler then sign Brandon McCarthy? He may cost you 6-7 mill/yr which is half the cost of keeping Worley and adding Bourn. Fowler gives you right-handed pop, he's younger and his career OBP is .364-- a little higher than Bourn's. I realize McCarthy pitches in an extemely pitcher-friendly park. You have to make sure he's healthy. Unfortunately, that falls on the Phil's crack medical staff. Just a thought.

The Nationals and Braves are clearly the better teams and have made moves to keep themselves that way.

The Phillies are aging and haven't improved themselves at all.

As currently constructed, the Phillies are nowhere close to a playoff team and won't be unless some major holes are filled.

The Phillies "as currently constructed" are not the Phillies that will enter the season. They will add someone.

Forgot to add in Fowler's salary in the above example. He makes 2.7 mill which makes the deal cost around 10 mill. Bourn may get 15 mill.

TTI - Remember, the definition of running a franchise into the ground is guiding said franchise to a 373-275 record, an NL pennant and 3 NL division titles in your tenure.

Also didn't you know that whenever you criticize another poster you are automatically an FO apologist?


GM Carson - And yet the Phillies as currently constructed are basically the same team that made a run at the 2nd WC. Step off the ledge pal.

Red Burb- that was in 2009. Oswalt is gone. Victorino is gone. Madson is gone. Ibanez is gone. Werth is gone.

Not quite the same team.

Also, the remaining parts are older and breaking down and regressing. No denying that.

Sorry. 2nd WC = 2nd Wild Card, not 2nd World Championship.

RedBurb: Your invitation to join the White Knight Society should be in your inbox. Iceman and I will have to discuss your entry but it should work out okay.

Yes, having an aging, oft-injured roster with zero prospects in the minors, a maxed out payroll and coming off a .500 season is the pinnacle of success for any GM.

Also, that GM was handed a gift-wrapped WS winner and allowed to almost double its payroll over 3 years.

Yeah, an amazing job truly.

Wow. The "So-and-So is in the best shape of his life" stuff is starting a little early this year, huh? Usually, we have to wait until mid-February for that kind of talk.

Yup, because we've said that Amaro has been amazing. Keep bringing the strawmen.

I think TTI and I would agree that RAJ is not the best GM in baseball, but he is not the worst. The blind criticism for pretty much everything he does is a bit ridiculous though. But I guess that's the schtick for some posters around here.

RedBurb- congrats, you're in the FO/Amaro Apologists Club!

Apparently we have lowered our requirements for membership to simply refusing to say that Amaro has driven the franchise into the ground. But either way, you're in! Your packet and bumper sticker are in the mail.

I am 'wait and see' mode until at least the end of next week and maybe a bit longer. If Amaro hasn't made any substantial moves by then, he likely will be in a bit of trouble because most of the major chips will be off the table.

Most of the quality bats have been signed already with the obvious exception of Hamilton (think it is pretty much a lock this point he ends up back in Texas).

If Amaro really is going to use Worley as the key part of a major trade though, he better do it soon because decent starting pitching is going to go pretty fast after Greinke signs & the teams really start to scramble to sign the remaining decent starters.

I can see why Utley made that comment. Supposedly the issue was that Utley took off the vigorous daily stretching/strength routine he was on after the season ended in Nov in '11 and didn't resume it again until after the holidays.

I don't doubt that Utley is an ubercompetitive guy who will do what is required to stay on the field this year as much as possible. Utley is also in a walk-year too. If he really wants to get a say 3-year/$15M deal, he has to show he can play at least 130-140 G this year.

Howard is going to be the guy it is interesting to see how he comes into camp. He supposedly gained a little weight again after he broke his toe & he just got married on Dec 1st. Never know any guy who hasn't gain a little additional weight either.

He'll have at least 6 weeks before the start of spring training to get himself back into shape but I hope he doesn't wait until after the holidays to do so.

I'm in the MG camp here. There's a fine line between waiting out the market and not doing anything. I think most fans, myself included, are waiting for something to happen.

Yes, having an aging, oft-injured roster with zero prospects in the minors, a maxed out payroll and coming off a .500 season is the pinnacle of success for any GM.

Posted by: NEPP | Wednesday, December 05, 2012 at 08:48 AM

Also, that GM was handed a gift-wrapped WS winner and allowed to almost double its payroll over 3 years.

Yeah, an amazing job truly.

Posted by: NEPP | Wednesday, December 05, 2012 at 08:49 AM


Hard to bring that level of dopey within 60 seconds of each other. Nice job!

In Seidman's list of young pitchers above there probably shouldn't be any untouchables, but I'd try to hold onto Martin, Morgan, & Biddle. Worely, May, Pettibone, Colvin, & Cloyd would all be available. Trading Worely for cheaper outfield help causes the problem that then you have to turn around and sign a new pitcher, unless you really think Pettibone is ready (he did pitch well in LV)

All this bickering and not one poster has brought up that the picture in the thread headed is not Cliff Lee. I always thought the red text matched the picture. Right now, I'm more concerned with JW's intern vetting process than how much Amaro has destroyed this club.

All this talk of trading Lee for Granderson or Ellsbury makes no sense unless the Phils (1) don't send a bunch of cash with Lee and (2) use the savings to sign Zack Greinke. Granderson and Ellsbury will be free agents after the season. If they move Lee and don't get a pitcher, Doc and Kyle Kendrick are both in the final years of their contracts, and we'd be left with Hamels, Worley, Cloyd, and two lucky fans in the 2014 rotation.

"All this talk of trading Lee for Granderson or Ellsbury"

What talk?

I am not opposed at all to trading Worley either for a starter in CF or at 3B. Worley has some positives but unless he develops a good offspeed pitch & stop running so many deep counts, he is going to be nothing more than a backend rotation guy who usually gives a team no more than 6 IP.

There's value in that as long as he is cost-controlled & cheap which he will be for at least the next 2 years.

Did anyone respond to BAP's point in the previous thread? He noted that at some point, people were going to have to admit that Howard's massive salary was clearly blocking the team from spending at other positions. Now Amaro says he can really only afford one of CF or 3B.

If you remember correctly, people at the time said it didn't matter that we overpaid Howard, because "we're like the Yankees now."

Shockingly enough, it looks like that isn't true. Who could've possible imagined that?

TTI: Ha, nice job on NEPP's book. I believe 'pwned' is what the kids say.

I was 100% wrong about what Victorino would get in free agency. I nominated him as the best "value" in FA back in July.

For the Phillies sake, lets hope that the best value becomes Michael Bourn.

Guess what everyone: Jack doesn't like Ryan Howard's contract. News flash I know.

Even if you take Amaro at face value (a foolish proposition) and even if you think that spending money on one guy prohibits spending on others (again, not a cause/effect situation necessarily. Paying a guy heavily might mean you need to be creative) it is still hard to say it is solely Ryan's contract.

Yes- it isn't Cliff Lee's 25 million a year, or Cole Hamels 23.5 million a year, or Halladay's 20 million a year this season. It is Howard and his 25 million.

But Jack has to come on here and have people proclaim him as being right. Kinda weird that someone needs faceless Internet people to proclaim him king.

I think Victorino's deal isn't as terrible as most people are making it out to be. I think it's something of an overpay, sure, but Victorino is a solid player who had a bad year last year. Two years ago, in the midst of his great 2011 season, people probably would've been thrilled if Amaro had signed him to a 4/48 extension.

I'd expect a power boost for Victorino this coming season, which will get his offensive value right back in line with what it was before last year.

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