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Thursday, December 06, 2012


Imagine if in addition to hitting .307/.351 Pierre provided 1000+ innings of elite defense in the OF. That's what Revere provided for Minnesota.

I'm skeptical to say the least and agree he sounds like a Pierre clone. Of course if he actually does become Juan Pierre in his prime we will all be very happy. I apparently value Worley more than most here. I get the Happ comp and I was positive Happ was no loss. He flamed out just as I expected. I'm not so sure on Worley though. I think he will make a very good middle of the rotation guy for years. In that regard I don't like the trade. Again if Revere does become John Peter it will be well worht it.

That fWAR, to be fair, includes him spending quite a bit of time in RF (70% of his innings actually) where he has a ridiculously high UZR propping it up.

He'll lose some of it moving to CF full-time.

The above post was me.

Freddy Galvis: True, but he should make a lot of it up in positional adjustment. If his range is as advertised (and his arm is bad), he may gain more in positional adjustment than he loses in UZR.

"lorecore: Great Range/Bad Arm. I seem to remember a guy like that patrolling CF for the phils for a the past couple years?"

I seem to remember Shane Victorino patroling CF for th phils for the past couple years.

Is Revere the only above average defensive player -- based on his range -- that would lose value moving to CF? That doesn't make sense to me.

Wait, someone is going to legitimately say that Victorino had a bad arm?

I'm just pointing out that he might not be as great a CF as he is a RF.

I was a pretty big fan of Worley's. I think his control was pretty fantastic and he'll settle into a pretty great middle rotation guy in the coming years. I would've traded Kendrick before i traded Worley but it is what it is.

The problem is the Phillies don't need Juan Pierre w/ good defense, they need guys who can mash. Otherwise it will simply be a repeat of station-to-station strike out, ground out, pop up frustration.

Also keep in mind it was 3B defense which killed the Phillies far more than any other position. Potentially acquiring Young does absolutely nothing to help that.

I think you have to withhold judgment in context of whatever else is done to the club, although the youth in the outfield should be a bit refreshing. This team needed a makeover to some degree, even if they are technically taking on lesser players. Clearly Amaro is going to take on salary in some form this off-season. Passing on Bourn allows him to go utilize the duckets elsewhere. I'm curious to see how. They say they want a right-handed bat, which could end up being Young, and then my guess is they go after a FA fourth-stater type and trade for set-up help.

Who's in next years FA class?

Worley will get eaten alive in the AL... great trade...

Lost in the Revere talk is the news Sophist posted about Uehara signing with Boston for a 1-year deal.

For all the talk about improving the 8th inning, that's a real miss by the Phillies, if he would've been willing to come here (which of course we don't know).

Seems more like a Bourn type, with better contact skills but maybe less power, than a Pierre type. Bourn had worse minor league numbers than Revere, and Revere had better numbers in the early going (first three seasons) than Bourn FWIW.

Another note on Revere: He did have a .383 OBP in the minors. So there is a lot of room for growth in his major league skill set.

"clout will always remind people of what a dumbass they were for regardless of how minor or long ago it was.

Posted by: MG | Thursday, December 06, 2012 at 01:29 PM"

"I going to disagree with a comment on the previous thread in which Billy Mac said "Bourn is a similar player to Shane Victorino."

Bourn is far more patient at the plate has a far better BB/K ratio. He also knows how to steal bases. He's at least as fast as Vic on the basepaths and is as good a fielder, although with less of an arm.

Bourn's career minor league OBP is .379, Vic's is .343. Vic has a little more pop .414 SLG to .393 for Bourn. But Bourn's SB and BB/K numbers are far superior.

Bourn, based on his skill set, minor league stats and age (24), is far more likely to be a productive everyday player (and leadoff hitter) than Victorino.

Posted by: clout | Tuesday, March 06, 2007 at 03:19 PM"

someone was commenting towards me, that wasn't me saying vic has a bad arm. His arm was great.

Smitty I think you're missing the point. Yes, Revere has a ton in common with Juan Pierre but why would you sign an old Juan Pierre who can't play CF at all to a 1 year deal when you could acquire a young Juan Pierre who covers a ton of ground and is controllable for 4 years? By that logic you take the young guy every time.

Why do people want Swisher? I can't stand the guy.

RSB: If Young is the right-handed bat we add, that's a problem. It needs to be Young PLUS a right-handed power bat in the corner OF.

"Wait, someone is going to legitimately say that Victorino had a bad arm?

That was my point TTI. That was possibly the least informed post I've ever seen on BL. Stunning.

Not surprised at all they dealt Worley, his name had come up consistently the past two season, whether he was going good or bad. As a pitcher, his best attribute is his makeup. If he isn't getting that call on the outside corner, he'll run his pitch count way up, flood his goggles with sweat, get hit fairly hard, and be gone by the middle of the game. A solid major league starting pitcher but expendable on a staff like the Phillies, even if that does mean that you're relying that much more heavily on Kyle Kendrick, who still has to prove he can stay in a major league rotation for a full season.

NEPP: I agree, from a UZR perspective. I was disagreeing with your suggestion that it's propping up his fWAR.

Here's a Ben Revere 2011 highlight video:

He says he's a friendly guy in the beginning, means he has no killer instinct. Not a winning player. Notice all the diving plays he has to make cause he runs bad routes. There's also that clip of him tripping while running out that triple, obviously can't run the bases. No power either. I thought they were going to get a CF who can hit 30 homers. Trade has disaster written all over it. May will probably be a 15-20 game winner from 2014-2024.

Jack, I agree, but they might be thinking that extra RH bat for the outfield is Mayberry.

I heard Ben Revere's girlfriend is ugly confidence.

Less and less quality late inning RP

Pittsburgh and Boston added to their corps

Revere's not a bad acquisition. You just can't use SABR stats to evaluate him, b/c his best attribute is "costs $70M less than Bourn."

Now I'm even more anxious for the other shoe to drop, b/c clearly this isn't all. Only question: will it be Hamilton or Swisher?

I wonder if this opens up the Alfonso Soriano discussion again. Would you take both Young and Soriano as salary dumps for non-prospects?


Is that enough?

len39: hah, nice work.

FWIW, the SABR argument actually works in Revere's favor precisely because of that cost-difference.

I retract my bad arm statement about victorino. I was remembering a couple of bad/awkward throws and sort of remembering him being more of a speed/range and catching more flyballs that asssits/putouts, but he had both.

Not keen on Soriano, I'd rather they give Ruf that share of ABs to see what he can do.

Hamilton, Swisher, or Greinke?

So Rollins will continue to leadoff?

I'm actually warming to this deal as the panic subsides that they aren't going to add anything else. Jack was just mocking the FO for missing out on the prime years of Michael Bourn's career last night, and they essentially traded for a 25 YO [at worst] poor man's version of Bourn for a fraction of the cost, without the risk of paying for his decline.

They've added (assuming here) Young and Revere for less than $7 million. That's two full-time holes that needed filled. They now have wiggle room to spend on corner OF, SP, and a set-up.

No real excuse not to fill at least 2 or 3 of these holes with people that will legitimately improve the team. I'm not expecting anyone here to be patient enough to wait for that to happen, but it will.

"Hamilton, Swisher, or Greinke?"

Yes please.

I think Rollins leads off as long as Cholly is around.

That's what I think too, Steve.

Would love it if Revere bats 8th, I've wanted a speed guy in that slot for years. Usually it's a slow C that can't make it to 2B on bunt attempts.

Any word if the proposed "Rollins Rule" was passed at the winter mtgs? You know, "Any team w/ Rollins on the roster must bat him leadoff."

Dave Cameron's thoughts on the move...surprise, he hates it.

Also, Rollins will leadoff...guarantee it.

Colonel Tom, you don't consider a year or two away from the big show as "close?" If that doesn't qualify, then there's that Pettibone kid...

Anyhow, perhaps you missed the corollary that was the mention of effective stop gaps like Cloyd or some other minor leaguer, FAs or waiver guys. Basically, Edwin Jackson or a like veteran. We're talking about the 4th starter position here.

People forget that Rollins didn't bat leadoff for the first month of 2012.

Okay, time to move on to who our new 4th or 5th stater will be....

Cyclic, but that was more so out of necessity.

Yo, new thread

It seems to me that Amaro is backed into a corner against the cap with all of the multi year contracts. Look at the ridiculous levels of compensation being paid Vict 3-39 etc.. The Phillies also don't have much if anything in the minors that someone might want. The Phils and Yankees are "bottom feeders" because of past sins. We have had our run and I am sorey to say that it is probably the Nats and Braves fighting it our in the NL east.

Cyclic- yeah and Rollins was terrible. He's the leadoff hitter while Charlie is here.

Colonel Tom, you don't consider a year or two away from the big show as "close?" If that doesn't qualify, then there's that Pettibone kid...

Not when your team's competitive window is closing. I doubt Cloyd will keep his ERA under 5 in the rotation. They will need to sign or trade for somebody to replace Worley.

My only thing is the Phillies continued affinity for left-handed bats. But from everything I read here and elsewhere, I'm good with it.

mayberry,brown,ruf,revere,nix,rule 5 guy someones gonna go my guess is brown for 8th inning guy goog news is brown is desirable enough prospect to get someone legit sign john lannon 5 starter spot filled 3b still troublesom

ruf in front of howard should be very productive at least until they figure how to pitch him that is the real gamble here if ruf is able to maintain numbers in the bigs you can make it work staying close to the top and have flexibility to fill needs

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