Brad Lidge quietly announced his retirement from baseball on Sunday night. The World Series hero of 2008 saved 100 games during his four seasons with the Phillies.
Here’s something you might not know …
Following the 2008 World Series the perfect season, Brad
Lidge bought a Rolex watch for every member of the Phillies’ bullpen and had it
inscribed with a special message for each pitcher.
Essentially the message was even though Lidge received all of the glory for saving 48 straight games, including the last pitches to sew up the Phillies’ second World Series title in their 129 seasons, he couldn’t have done it without his teammates in the ‘pen.
It was a dream season for Lidge where everything he touched went beautifully. Better yet, it was an even better season off the field for Lidge.
The dream season of 2008 was followed by a nightmare in 2009. That’s where Lidge set a record for the worst ERA in Major League Baseball history for a pitcher with at least 30 saves. But as dreadful as it was for Lidge in 2009 with those eight losses and 11 blown saves, Lidge bravely faced the music with his teammates, coaches and media. That's a bit of a rarity these days. Better yet, not only was he consistent in demeanor, he has been accountable and kept his dignity.
In fact, Lidge has been no different in 2009 when talking about his performance than he was in 2008. No matter what, he would stand there for you and deconstruct every pitch of every inning all while indulging every question and reliving the horror—or the glory—after every game.
During the 2009 season, Phil Taylor of Sports Illustrated weighed in on how Lidge handled the season with great dignity and aplomb. As Taylor wrote:
It's like going to sleep as James Bond and waking up as Inspector Clouseau. "My preparation is the same, my intensity, my focus, my effort, they're all the same as last season, but the results just—aren't," the 32-year-old Lidge says. "There are definitely times when I wonder, What's going on here?"
The rest of us are wondering the same thing, but not so much about his pitching. What's going on with all this self-control? No athlete in recent memory has gone from being perfect one season to putrid the next, so if ever a player could be forgiven for snapping, it's Lidge. Yet he continues to handle his struggles with grace and civility, which is just so ... unfashionable.
Hasn't he been paying attention? That's not the way it's done at a time when rage is all the rage. If you're on the verge of losing to an underdog in the U.S. Open, you take it out on your racket and the line judge, the way Serena Williams did. If an opponent shows little class by taunting, you show even less by slugging him, as Oregon running back LeGarrette Blount did after the Ducks' loss to Boise State. If the kick returner on your team lets a shot at a season-opening upset slip away, you take your frustrations out by spray-painting his lawn, the way Bills fans did after Leodis McKelvin's fumble at New England.
Even with all of those angry precedents to follow, Lidge's stack remains unblown; not once has he had to release an insincere, intentionally vague apology for some embarrassing loss of temper. Manager Charlie Manuel pulled him in a save situation against the Nationals two weeks ago, the first time as a Phillie that Lidge had suffered that indignity. Some relievers might have grabbed the biggest bat they could find and done a little impromptu demolition work in the clubhouse, but Lidge stayed in the dugout, demonstrably rooting on his replacement, Ryan Madson.
Staring out at a light rain last week, Lidge matter-of-factly discussed his performance, his affable demeanor never changing even as he used words like "crappy" and "terrible." After a particularly galling blown save against the Astros, his former team, he had sat in front of his locker so distraught that a Phillies staffer told him it would be fine if he chose not to speak to the media. Instead of taking the invitation to duck out, he took a deep breath and relived the ugly outing for his questioners—facing things, as Manuel puts it, "like a man."
More than the 48 saves in 2008 and the goose-bump raising celebration after throwing the final strike to Eric Hinske, Lidge will be remembered in Philadelphia as a classy guy and a good dude who never big timed anyone. Hell, after getting a Rolex for his teammates after the 2008 season, many of them went out of their way to randomly bestow gifts on him. Before the 2010 playoffs, Scott Eyre had Rage Against The Machine guitarist Tom Morello send Lidge one of his custom made axes.
Pretty sweet gift.
And in the end, Lidge will most be remembered for how he treated others rather than those pitches he threw to win the World Series for the Phils.




Hmm... Actually I'm pretty sure he will indeed "most be remembered" for that sensational moment four years ago. And that's as it should be.
Posted by: fumphis | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:22 AM
First!! Just kidding... Brad... You will always drink for free in this town. Thank you!! 2008 was magical.
Posted by: @threwouttime | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:23 AM
Great write-up from JW and from the Sports Illustrated reporter Phil Taylor. I'd forgotten about Lidge staying in the dugout, after being pulled, to root for Madson.
Thanks, Lidge, for '08 and for being a man of dignity and grace. I was proud to have you on our team.
Posted by: GBrettfan | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:54 AM
@epicurian,
You must share the same sources as DPatrone...
Posted by: ChicagoPhan | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:55 AM
While lidge is a great pc of philles history. The nats are talking to rays about shields. Oh boy
Posted by: The hook | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 05:23 AM
GBrett: John Finger, who will be contributing to the site, wrote this piece.
Posted by: J. Weitzel | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 07:23 AM
Best of luck to Mr. Lidge. Thanks for the effort, which was always there even if the results varied.
Posted by: Edmundo | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 08:13 AM
Awesome post, JW. Thanks. Nice thing to wake up to.
Posted by: Fatalotti | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 08:13 AM
Like most things on the Phillies, 2009 Brad Lidge was mostly the fault of Ryan Howard bodyslamming him during the WS celebration and injuring his knee in the process.
Seriously though, Lidge was amazing in 2008.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 08:47 AM
Bet Adam Dunn or Ryan Ludwick wouldn't have crushed Lidge like that.
Posted by: jbird | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 08:54 AM
happy trails, lidgey-poo. hope you make the wall in the near future. Also, I expect the phillies to do a pre-game ceremony for you at some point this season.
"Here's the 0-2 pitch. SWING AND A MISS! STRUCK HIM OUT! The Philadelphia Phillies are 2008 World Champions of Baseball"
Posted by: nonamePHame | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 08:55 AM
Best Season Ever.
Posted by: lorecore | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 09:09 AM
Lidge will make the Wall...zero doubt about that.
He deserves it.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 09:11 AM
Thanks, Brad. You are a class act. I'll never forget the 2008 season and you were a huge reason why. Lights out, always.
Posted by: Outta Here | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 09:13 AM
Question for those who might know...How would Brad officially retire as a Phillie? Who takes the first step in that process?
Thanks, Brad, for the unique lessons you provided in terms of class and grace. Thanks also for the breathtaking and exuberant world-series-clinching moment** that we'll all remember as if it was just yesterday. Best of luck to you and your family, wherever you end up.
(**When you think about it, there are very few singular moments in the world of sports...or any world for that matter...that stick with us over time. I can't think of too many that have been more meaningful or more poignant.)
Posted by: can_of_corn | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 09:47 AM
***How would Brad officially retire as a Phillie? Who takes the first step in that process?***
He would have to sign a 1 day deal with them and then retire officially. This assumes he hasnt already filed his official retirement paperwork with the league office.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 09:49 AM
Correction: Thanks, John Finger, for the tribute to Lidge.
Thanks for correcting me, JW, to give credit where due.
Posted by: GBrettfan | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 10:40 AM
NEPP, would the 1 day deal be initiated by the Phils or by Lidge himself?
Posted by: can_of_corn | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 11:18 AM
I think either side could or would ask/start the process if they so wanted to.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 11:18 AM
Good luck to Brad in whatever he endeavors.
Posted by: awh | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 11:26 AM
So, Arod had surgery on his previously good hip (he already had surgery on his other hip in the past) and will miss 3-6 months with a return in June.
I think we can safely cross him off of the "possible 3B in 2013" list.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 11:45 AM
NEPP, I was just going to post about ARoid.
Yes, we can cross him off the list (not that he was EVER on my list).
This is from the story linked on the right:
"Rodriguez hit .272 with 18 homers in 122 games this year while apparently playing through a damaged hip, posting career-lows in slugging percentage (.430) and OPS (.783) at age 36, and was repeatedly benched in the playoffs. He’s still owed $114 million for the next five seasons, including $28 million for 2013.
OK, fellow BL posters: Which be worse, Ryan Howard's contract or ARoid's?
Posted by: awh | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:01 PM
In terms of length, pure numbers and age, ARod's contract is far worse. Prospectively, in terms of those elements, it's still worse.
Relative to their respective teams, though, I'd say that Ryan Howard's contract probably will have a more negative impact on the Phillies, given that the Yankees don't really have a budget constraint. Of course, the increasing penalties for blowing past the luxury tax threshold might change that, in which case, the ARod contract goes back to being worse.
Posted by: Fatalotti | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:05 PM
A-Rod's is worse because he's a douche.
Posted by: oogie urbina | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:18 PM
The only positive about ARod's contract situation is that it goes down to a relatively manageable $20 million blackhole for the final few years instead of nearly $30 million.
Its still about 10% of their overall budget but not nearly as bad as it could be if they had backloaded it.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:19 PM
To add to the above, I know that doesnt change their overall cap hit due to how its calculated by AAV but it likely still matters to their bottom line. They have been acting like they actually have a budget for the last couple years so I expect their days of unlimited spending are over.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:22 PM
Fatti, you're not correct.
Because of the new luxury tax penalties, the Yankees are trying very hard to get under the luxtax by 2014. Just check the New York papers, it's all over them.
Basically, it looks like the new luxtax is so onerous that even the rich teams aren't going to violate it year after year.
That said, I should have been more explicit in my question: Which contract is going to provide more value for the respective team in terms of the player's performance.
One could argue (or speculate,really) that a Howard return to 35-40 HR and 125+ RBI will provide more value than ARoid going forward.
Addtionally, the remaining 4 years on Howard's contract ends after his age 36 season.
ARoid is going into his age 37 season and still has 5 more years.
Posted by: awh | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:23 PM
5 years, $114 million to go...not counting those HR milestone bonuses.
That's pretty hard to imagine them even getting close to that much value out of him. He was a 2 Win player in 2012...so that's a return of -$19 million in value.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Granted, Ryan Howard was a -1.2 Win player last year for a return of -$26 million...so there's that.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:28 PM
Oogie nails it (or cuts right through to the heart of it, or sets it aflame): character matters, and Ryan would never agree to a self-kissing photo or centaur painting.
Posted by: Unikruk | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:29 PM
Exactly, recreating a Venetian estate complete with canals is one thing...centaur paintings cross the line.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:31 PM
NEPP, I suspect the holder of their stadium bonds ($1B+, and no that is not a typo) have something to say about their payroll.
Bond deals usually have convenants that pertain to use of revenues for debt coverage, so it may have something to do with that.
OTOH, it could simply be that Hal Steinbrenner looked at all their spending the last 12 seasons and sees little benefit to overspending when it comes to championships, the only one in that period being in 2009.
Posted by: awh | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:33 PM
True, true. Say what you want about Howard's contract, but Howard the man is involved in the community, gives back, and is generally a good guy.
ARoid: Douchasaurus.
Posted by: awh | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:35 PM
***($1B+, and no that is not a typo) have something to say about their payroll.
***
I think its $1.2 billion IIRC.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:37 PM
awh, I said that if the luxury tax penalties were so onerous as to constrain the Yankees budget, than the ARod contract is worse. So we agree.
Also, I don't see any reason to believe that Howard is, on average, a 35-40 HR/125 RBI guy over the next 4 years. My bet is he's closer to a 30 HR/100 RBI guy the next 4 years With is bad defense and laughably bad baaserunning, it's going to be hard for the Phils to really garner positive value out of his contract. And that's assuming he's healthy the entire time.
The Yankees have no shot at getting positive value out of the ARod contract going forward.
Posted by: Fatalotti | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:38 PM
Really good post, and vintage Beerleaguer.
Finger, Kaplan, and Seidman have so far been meeting the excellent standards established by JW here for years. The future of Beerleaguer seems safe.
Posted by: DH Phils | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:39 PM
Almost impossible on this site to speak of Howard's contract without someone assuming you're referencing Howard the person.
Ryan Howard seems like a really awesome dude, and overall, a great ambassador for the sport. His contract, which is RAJ's fault, not his, is less than stellar.
Nothing against Howard. I hope the guy hits 50 HR a year for the life of his contract, though.
Posted by: Fatalotti | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:41 PM
DH, Weitzel is still the best.
Posted by: awh | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:41 PM
Hey, how about that. I just assumed JW wrote this post. Didn't realize it was penned by a different author.
Posted by: Fatalotti | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:42 PM
awh: Agreed. No disrespect intended towards JW, who is one of my favorite sportswriters ever.
Posted by: DH Phils | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:44 PM
***I just assumed JW wrote this post. Didn't realize it was penned by a different author.***
As did I...solid compliment to say the least.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:44 PM
The general opinion amongst those that closely follow the Yankees is that Hal aint George. He doesn't spend like the old man. His father basically gave him a blue print on how to use their money to dominate and Hal is ignoring it. Apparently the Dodgers are ready to step into the void and become the new Yankees. I bet George is spinning like a top.
Posted by: donc | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:47 PM
Howard of Arod easily, I think.
Posted by: jbird | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:50 PM
Maybe Hal wants to actually make a ton of money instead of just a smaller, but still large, amount of money?
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:50 PM
When ARod opted out of his previous mega-deal, NYY should have bid him a fond adieu and moved on. It was a gift.
Posted by: jbird | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:51 PM
Very similar playoff numbers between Ryan and the Roid:
Ryno: .259/.357/.845 OPS 8 HR in 170 AB
Roid: .263/.369/.833 OPS 13 HR in 274 AB
Really thought Rodrigueaz would suck more since he has the rep of choking in the playoffs.
Posted by: oogie urbina | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 12:52 PM
jbird, I said so at the time.
The Yankees should have run a country mile from ARod at that point.
And to top it all off, they gave him a BIGGER contract.
It was really, really stupid.
Posted by: awh | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:01 PM
From MLBTradeRumors:
The Phillies and Giants continue vying for the services of Angel Pagan, tweets Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. Rosenthal notes that Cody Ross is an alternative for both teams, though obviously the two players don't bring exactly the same skills to the table.
Can we please avoid Cody fvcking Ross?
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:04 PM
I don't know if anyone has brough this up yet, but after the Nationals traded for Spahn, Michael Morse suddenly seems to be very available. He's not a good fielder by any means, but he'd be a 25-30 homerun right-handed bat to stick in the middle of the lineup who also makes good contact and doesn't strike out too much. Not to mention he can play some first base, which would allow the Phils to rotate some guys in.
I remember reading that the we were interested in him before his breakout 2011 campaign. It's unlikely the Nats would think about trading him to us considering it be an inter-divisional trade, but wouldn't it be nice if we could land a guy like Morse to play a corner spot for the next two years at a relatively cheap price (about 5 million)? I'd much rather have him than Hamilton.
Posted by: The Secret Weapon | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:08 PM
Hard to see the Phils staying very long in a bidding war for Pagan based on what they reportedly offered Upton.
Posted by: limoguy | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:13 PM
Weapon: Morse is only available if the Nats re-up LaRoche. Morse only has one yr left on his current deal. No guarantee you'd have him beyond 2013. Plus, who ya tradin' for him? The Nationals are looking for marquee SP..
Posted by: oogie urbina | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:14 PM
but after the Nationals traded for Spahn,
And after the Nats trade for a few more dead 91-year olds, the Phillies will be younger and healthier!
Posted by: Edmundo | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:21 PM
It's hard to believe that Warren Spahn is dead 9 years already. Lordy, time flies.
Posted by: Edmundo | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:23 PM
>> "Exactly, recreating a Venetian estate complete with canals is one thing...centaur paintings cross the line."
I actually thought about the canals before posting and, for me at least, there is difference. They are essentially just a bad case of conspicuous consumption, whereas the rumors about ARod occupy the space where intense vanity borders on the unhinged.
Then again, if Pat the Bat or his pal Wilson had a centaur painting at home, we'd chalk them up to a strange but delightful sense of humor.
Posted by: Unikruk | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:27 PM
There's no way the Nats are giving us Morse.
When we were looking at Morse, Rizzo the Rat's offer was Morse straight up for Brown, back when he was a prized asset.
Maybe we should phone him up and see if he'll still do that deal...
Posted by: Iceman | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:37 PM
Anyone else hear the Dodgers are talking about a $220M payroll? Yanks may be finished as big spenders, but they have a replacement.
Nats traded Langerhans for Morse. Unbelievable. Looks like they'll sign Laroche and flip Morse for pitching.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:54 PM
That $220 million is probably closer to $250 million once you factor in the luxury tax.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 01:59 PM
Without being sure if they went over in 2012 (I'm pretty sure they did but I cant access Google Docs at work), they're looking at a 30% penalty this year if they go over the $178 milllion. So if they go to $220 million, that's 30% of $42 million which is $12.5 million. So its not as bad as I thought...but still, pretty rough. That penalty would increase to 40% for the 3rd year and 50% for the 4th year over.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 02:06 PM
Shane's looking for a 3 yr deal at 10 mill a yr.. If Pagan is 4/48, Rube will have a tough decision, unless he's had enough of Vic. I like Pagan because he hits well from either side of the plate, and is probably a better fielder. Vic has the edge in power (before this yr).
Posted by: oogie urbina | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 02:36 PM
Reports are that Vic has one 4 year offer. Bet it would take at least 4/40 to get Vic. They must really be through with Vic, but I guess you have to trust them on that. Still hoping to pick up Youk and a power corner OF bat. Money saved on Vic vs Pagan would help there.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 02:39 PM
If we were to get both Pagan and Youk with AAVs in the $10-11 million range, we'd have a team salary of around $165 million going into 2013. We'd be up against the luxury tax once medical, bonuses and 40 man pay were put into it.
If they dont care about the tax this year due to the increase in 2014, they could still add another corner OF bat to that mix...and maybe a lesser bullpen arm.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 02:47 PM
Sophist: After hearing those Vic reports, what makes you think he is going to cost less than Pagan?
Posted by: lorecore | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 02:58 PM
NEPP - That's why it's more likely that they go cheap at either 3B or with the OF bat once they sign a CF. Another reason why you see Soriano reported as a good fit here (assuming Cubs pay his salary).
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:00 PM
Vic is getting a 4 year offer that Sophist is probably correct in being around ~40 million. If Pagan is 4/44-46, it is an absolute no-brainer.
Posted by: Iceman | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:02 PM
Hamilton, by himself, would likely take us to the luxury tax cap....which makes it bloody unlikely we sign him given that we'd still need to get a CF and reanimate a corpse to play 3B.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:03 PM
lorecore - Sounds like most of the Vic offers are 3-year deals. I'd guess they range from 3/27 to 3/33 or so. I bet the 4-year deal is no more than 10 AAV (why would it be higher - that's the point of the extra year). Pagan is definitely a 4-year commitment and the lower of the two between the Giants and Phils is probably 4/40 or so at a minimum. Pagan has more 4-year offers, so he's going to get a better deal. Bet the Phils could land Vic at 3-years and the same AAV.
All speculation of course.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM
If the salary/years are the same, I'd lean towards Pagan over Victorino.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM
iceman: Who do you think is the better player for the next 4 seasons? I am far from convinced that either player is that much better/worse than the other. Pretty equal to me.
Posted by: lorecore | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM
Why does this offseason kind of feel like the mid-2000s when the Phils had several clear holes they need to fill, can only fill some of them, and have to roll the dice a bunch of aging veterans via FA at moderate dollars?
Posted by: MG | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:06 PM
If we're splitting hairs over 1 year or a couple million, I think Ruben should completely throw out the contract part of the equation and just sign whoever he thinks is the better player.
I think I lean towards Victorino over Pagan, but I really can't argue with people who say Pagan.
Posted by: lorecore | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:08 PM
Pagan isn't completely neutered against RHP like Vic...so there's that. Vic has the edge defensively though. Pagan doesnt crush either LHP or RHP...he's a far more balanced hitter but Vic really does crush LHP so there's value in that.
Vic is a year older.
Both are pretty similar when it comes to overall skillset though.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:09 PM
It could be splitting hairs, but it also could be the difference between 4/40 and 4/45, which could be the difference between Uehera or no Uehera or whatever. Who knows.
lorecore - if the Phils are throwing the full contract considerations out the window, I sign whoever is likely to be better over the next 2 years.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:11 PM
A-Rod's contract is the worst in the majors. Howard is probably second-worst.
The fact that we're now defending Howard's contract by pointing to his house interior decorating and saying they are superior to A-Rod's interior decorating probably says just about everything you need to know.
Posted by: Jack | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:11 PM
I like Stephen Drew or Hiroyuji Nakajima for shortstops that might be able to convert to third. I think the Japanese player is a straight up free agent now that the Yankees didn't sign him last year. Apparently he has the offensive skills to translate to the MLB. I like Stephen Drew better than Keppinger also.
Posted by: AlexRosie | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:11 PM
When Pujols enters his Age 37 season in 2017, he'll still have 5 years, $140 million remaining on his contract.
I wonder what type of hitter he will be by then...
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM
I think it's fairly obvious that, if we get one of them, the other will will be the better player for the next 3-4 years.
Posted by: Cyclic | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM
" and have to roll the dice a bunch of aging veterans via FA at moderate dollars"
That's more the nature of the FA market this year. Not a great one besides Greinke and the Phils just extended Hamels.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:15 PM
Hamels is the better bet over Greinke anyways so we pretty much "won" that one mid-season.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:16 PM
"and reanimate a corpse to play 3B."
Oh great, here comes another Pedro Feliz debate.
Posted by: donc | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:17 PM
Just trade for Bourjos and sign Hamilton and Youk and let's do this.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:18 PM
That would put us at around $180 million before anything else for payroll but fck it, lets do it.
Make it happen, Rube.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:20 PM
"and reanimate a corpse to play 3B."
Or sadly Scott Rolen at this point too.
Posted by: MG | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:20 PM
Sophist: You like Bourjos? Interesting. Personally, I'm very skeptical of his ability to be a decent hitter.
I imagine you like that he's young and cheap and plays great defense? I'm interested to hear the case for him. I think I get that you could take a hit on offense if you signed Hamilton and Youk too--would you be willing to get Bourjos if it didn't come with signing either or both of them?
Posted by: Jack | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:21 PM
lorecore: three reasons I go Pagan:
1) He has been the better player 3 of the last 4 seasons
2) He hasn't sustained any type of drop-off in any aspect of his game, unlike Vic, who continues to get worse v. RHP, and has actually gotten better defensively in the last two years
3) He is not a glorified platoon player like Vic and can hold his own vs LHP
The only real thing Vic had going for him was his the chances of getting him on a deal about half (or so) of what Pagan is getting. That no longer looks possible, so I'm not sure why he'd be the better bet. I don't think it would be foolish like signing Ross and another corner OF and being done with it, but I think Pagan is the clear choice if the money is close.
Sophist has a point that the small difference between the two players could be the difference between getting Uehara, but that seems pretty unlikely, as Amaro consistently says they aren't working on a hard budget.
Posted by: Iceman | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:25 PM
You know what else sucks? Burnt arse popcorn in an office. How freaking hard is it to not burn popcorn?
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:27 PM
Yes, Bourjos is pre-arb, 25, has great AAA numbers in plenty of PA, and had a great season in 2011. At worst he's a cheap, plus defender in center (even with his bad production in 2012, fWAR had him as a 2 win player), and someone who could pick up the slack for whoever the future LF/RF are. I don't have problems with defense-first guys "up the middle".
At best he's all those things and builds on his 2011 season (116 OPS+). He actually has potential. I'm not really a huge believer in any of our prospects, so I'm not too worried about price.
But really in this context there's the avoided cost of doing the low-imagination sign Pagan move, which I am not really a fan of. I don't love the idea of patching together our 33-36 year old roster with 4-year deals to Pagan types. And, yeah, like you said it frees up payroll to add an impact bat this year or next year or whenever. But I think there is a case for bringing him in anyway.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:31 PM
***I'm not really a huge believer in any of our prospect***
I'd be shocked if any of our current "top" prospects become anything more than bench/role players.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:32 PM
NEPP: burnt or not burnt, one shouldn't pop popcorn at the office. If you do burn it, it stinks up the place, if you don't burn it, everyone else has to sit there and smell your delicious, buttery popcorn. So, unless you brought enough for everyone, no popping popcorn at the office.
Posted by: jbird | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:42 PM
Yeah, NEPP.
Two worst inventions...
1. Microwave popcorn bags
2. Juice boxes - EVERY TIME, a few drops of bright red stains end up on the car seat.
Posted by: Bonehead | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:42 PM
There is a person in my office that likes the taste of burnt microwave popcorn so she always burns a bag at around 2:30 to 3:30 every day. She has been spoken too on several occasions yet continues to do it.
Very, very annoying.
Every SINGLE day.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:46 PM
And there goes Pagan..... I think Hamilton is extremely possible now that RAJ missed out on his top 2 targets
Posted by: AlexRosie | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:49 PM
Microwave popcorn is a fantastic invention; it just needs to be prohibited from the office for the reasons that jbird explained.
Posted by: nokwurst | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:50 PM
Pagan back to the Giants....yeah, I think Hamilton, the white whale of the 2012 off-season, is incoming.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:50 PM
NEPP: Just start eating stinky cheese outside her office. It's the Chicago way!
Posted by: jbird | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:53 PM
Sure the contract is going to suck but how mad can you be at Amaro if he signs Hamilton. Our lineup would be elite once again!
Posted by: AlexRosie | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:54 PM
***Our lineup would be elite once again!***
I dont think Hamilton alone makes our lineup "elite" again. I think it brings us up to "above average". We'd still have complete and utter blackholes at CF and 3B to deal with.
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:55 PM
***Just start eating stinky cheese outside her office. It's the Chicago way!***
They bring a bag of burnt popcorn, you bring a block of Limburger. They drink your soda, you toss their lunch in the trash, THAT's the Chicago Way!
Posted by: NEPP | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:57 PM
Well I am assuming that Rube will not only sign Hamilton, I don't think anyone sees him as a centerfielder anyway. I think if he traded for Fowler and left third for Frandsen and Galvis, our lineup and defense will round out nicely.
Posted by: AlexRosie | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 03:59 PM
Glad the Phils didn't get Pagan.
Posted by: Sophist | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 04:00 PM
Rube is an evil genius. He's going around, making offers to FAs that other teams are more likely to sign, driving their prices up. Then, after all the other teams have overpaid for their guys, he swoops in and signs Hamilton after the market has dwindled.
/sarcasm (or is it???)
Posted by: Sil Campusano | Monday, December 03, 2012 at 04:00 PM