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Monday, October 29, 2012

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Picking up Polanco's option would be in the Top 5 for dumbest moves ever made by Rube.

I don't know if Polanco will be physically able to play in 2013. Can an option be picked up if a player fails his physical?

Ty Wigginton being picked up to replace Ryan Howard for a half of season was such an idiotic move. This is far from hindsight, as most any fan said the exact same thing the very day the move was made.

Top 5 dumbest moves by RAJ:

1. Keeping Mini-Mart on the roster for 2 full years;
2. The Howard contract;
3. Re-signing Brian Schneider;
4. A 2-year deal to Contreras;
5. The Hunter Pence saga.

I'm absolving him of blame on the Lee for Gillies-Ramirez-Aumont trade because I've always felt that ownership gave him an ultimatum as a prerequisite for signing off on the Halladay deal.

Exercising Polanco's option would probably move into 3rd place on this list.

Amaro can be tough to read at times but I am 100% sure that they don't pick up Polanco's $5.5M option.

Their might be a slim chance they buy out Polanco ($1M) and attempt to bring him back on an incentive-laden deal with a modest base ($1.5M).

Wigginton and Contreras are as done as MLB players. At best, Wigginton signs a minor league deal somewhere. Add Schneider to that list too.


Ty Wigginton being picked up to replace Ryan Howard for a half of season was such an idiotic move. This is far from hindsight, as most any fan said the exact same thing the very day the move was made.

Posted by: lorecore | Monday, October 29, 2012 at 02:58 PM


Really?

JW: but the bargain acquisition of Wigginton, who is owed just $4 million in 2012 in the second year of a two-year deal, solves the team's need for corner infield and outfield versatility.


Either way, upgrading the bench from Gload/Martinez to Thome/Wigginton is a nice start to the off-season.

Posted by: NEPP | Sunday, November 20, 2011 at 07:58 PM


I love this deal. Rockies are eating half the $4M contract. It also means the Phils won't pay through the nose for Cuddyer, who'll get somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 years $30M, which I want NO part of.

This upgrades the bench. Can spell Howard, Polanco, and even Utley if need be. I'd rather have Wiggy smacking a homerun playing in a game for Polly and Valdez grounding into a double play or Michael Martinez just flat out sucking.

Posted by: GM-Carson | Sunday, November 20, 2011 at 08:24 PM


Amaro has significantly upgraded the bench for the coming season. With Mayberry being a starter now (most likely) the first righty off the bench was probably Ben Fran with Valdez or Mini Mart second. Now we have Wiggy first and Ben Fran second which means either Valdez or Mini Mart has lost his spot. Adding Thome for Gload was a huge plus too.

Posted by: The Truth Injection | Sunday, November 20, 2011 at 11:22 PM

Amaro has significantly upgraded the bench for the coming season. With Mayberry being a starter now (most likely) the first righty off the bench was probably Ben Fran with Valdez or Mini Mart second. Now we have Wiggy first and Ben Fran second which means either Valdez or Mini Mart has lost his spot. Adding Thome for Gload was a huge plus too.

Posted by: The Truth Injection | Sunday, November 20, 2011 at 11:22 PM

Sorry about that. I accidently clicked enter before I was finished editing my post.

FWIW, Thome/Wigginton WAS an improvement over Gload/Martinez.

Mike G: Wigginton as a bench guy RH bat off the bench wouldn't have been so bad - but him starting at 1B day in and day out was a tragedy.

andersog: " Is there anyone left who will argue that Brown is a better prospect, and is more likely to contribute to the ML team, than Ruf?"

I feel that way.

Ouch. GMCarson on record as not only "loving" the Wigginton trade, but also agreeing with TTI. I don't know which of the two is the more embarrassing for him.

I can't kill RAJ for the Wigginton deal. Needed a three-month stopgap. Needed a righty bench bat. And he needed it to be cheap. RAJ was probably more disappointed in his glove than bat since he was already fading over a couple of years.

Side by side, it's startling how the Phils got basically the same poor production from Wigginton (85 OPS+) and Mayberry (86 OPS+). And Mayberry is supposedly in his prime. I wonder if the Phils just move on with him.

NEPP: I not disagreeing with that. Only pointing out that people did not say the Wigginton trade was an idiotic move "the very day the move was made." As the original post suggested.

For the record, I did not like the Wigginton acquisition much. I wrote, "Unfortunately, like many recent Phillies acquistions, Wigginton arrives a good 3 or 4 years beyond his prime . . . if the plan is for him & Polanco to share 3rd base duties, that strikes me as a less-than-stellar plan."

In between those 2 sentences, I did allow that he was better than most of the Phillies' bench players in recent years. I suppose I get partial points off for that -- although, as a hitter, he actually probably WAS better than most of the Phillies' recent bench players.

***Needed a three-month stopgap***

Though at the time, we were told Howard would be back in late Apr/early May...not July.

**And Mayberry is supposedly in his prime. I wonder if the Phils just move on with him.**

Though he can moonlight as a CF on a very limited basis. That alone might keep him around.

While outside the phillies PR world, known as reality, a player coming off achilles injury are usually not healthy for close to 12mo - they should have acquired a player to fill that role - not maku up stories about howard being back in early may.

How is resigning Schneider for peanuts(not literally), a worse move than trading 3 big prospects for Pence?

I honestly think Rube banked on Howard making an early return and planned his off-season accordingly. It would explain his idea to rely on Thome and Wigginton at 1B.

I'm with Bedrosian's Beard. The Schneider signing was so inconsequential that there's no way it could ever rank as a bad move. If that's on a GM's Top 5 bad move list, that's a GREAT GM. Relative to the payroll, he's a cheap, veteran backup catcher. That he ended up producing nothing had next to zero effect on this team.

Not trading for Josh Willingham after the Nats signed Werth was one of Ruben's worst moves ever. The chain reaction afterwards just kept getting worse.

BB/KAS: Re-signing Schneider may not have been as consequential as many other moves. But what it lacked in overall impact to the team, it made up for with its stupendous degree of irrationality.

How can not making a trade be considered a "worst move ever" when, (A) we don't know that he didn't try, and (B) we can't know what he would have given up to make the deal?

Amaro gambled that Thome could start at 1st occasionally (1-2/week) and that Wigginton still had something left & could give him some production for the first 2-3 months Howard was out.

Kind of easier to argue that assuming Thome could start games at 1B even 1-2/week was the assumption that required a much bigger leap of faith. If he couldn't start, Thome basically had no value on this team since his a poor PH option. Even Cholly said as much in the spring. Needs to get regular ABs a DH.

Would like to point out that the agent who instituted the buyout clause so all of these players get money for nothing belongs in the same Sports Hall of Shame as the marketing a-hole executive who invented PSL's. Yes, I understand the buyouts are necessary and often in place of an additional year and can be deal-sweeteners, but they are stupid nonetheless.

This is a totally different topic, but I read this on MLB Trade Rumors re:Shin Soo Choo

Choo will hit free agency a year from now, which means Cleveland GM Chris Antonetti has two chances to make a trade: this winter and at next summer’s trade deadline. It’d make sense for the Indians to trade Choo for a controllable, young player if possible, as a contract extension seems unlikely.

Anybody interested?

I'd do it if the price was right. Choo hit's for a little power (20 HRS), has decent speed (20 SBs) and he gets on base pretty well (.380-.390). He plays reasonable defense. Was making just under $5mil and is arb eligible. Ruben should investigate. He could help the team. They would still need a bigger impact bat but he's a good player.

All aboard the Chooch-Choo train.

It's official... Phils decline Polly's option, too.

It's official ... Phils decline Polly's option, too.

*sigh of relief*

Without considering it's the norm in pro sports, in principle it kind of sucks to spend $2 mil to pay 3 guys not to play for the team. Still nowhere near as bad as what they had to pay Eaton after he was cut.

Sil Campusano: On the other hand, have team options toward the end of contracts with relatively low buyouts is good business practice. It sure beats having to guarantee that last year and either being stuck with terrible production or paying them an awful lot to not be there.

KAS: agreed. And I'd much rather pay the $2M than have those guys on the team next year. It was just an observation, speaking from a non-sports perspective.

Polanco and Wigginton won't be back. What a shock! From reading BL, I thought at least one would be back, if not both.

Nice get from Mike G on the hindsight cops coming out on Pigginton. Reminds me of the hindsight view of the Blanton extension, which was loved at the time.

Choo is a very good player and would be a good addition to the team.

I really hope the plan is to bring two OFs. It doesn't have to be someone like Choo, but I hope Amaro doesn't settle for a CF and assume a bunch of mediocre spare parts will be able to carry the corners. I'd even rather them bring in another full-time corner OF than a 3B at this point- there are just more options out there, and I don't know if I can personally stomach another full season of Mayberry.

Nice get from Mike G on the hindsight cops coming out on Pigginton. Reminds me of the hindsight view of the Blanton extension, which was loved at the time.

I thought both were for crap. No credit from the Gotcha! Patrol?

Re: Polanco

Exercising the option makes no sense, but bringing Polanco back for less money may. Who would you rather play at third, Polanco or Galvis?

Re: Brown and Ruf

Brown has not earned a starting job yet, but it's too soon to give up on him.

Ruf has earned the right to get a close look in spring training, no more, no less.

Let Brown and Ruf compete for playing time if Ruf survives spring training. Start with a LF platoon, and then award more playing time to the better performer.

It would only be worth bringing Polanco back, even for less money, if there was a reasonable expectation that he could keep himself on the field. The Phillies need a 3B option that is neither Polanco nor Galvis.

People liked Wigginton because they thought he was replacing Mini Mart as the 25th man on the bench. No one thought he would be the starting 1B for half the season.

Anything on Schierholtz?

or Nix?

Choo wouldn't be cheap...but he'd be awesome...especially if we signed a good CF too.

We could get by with a crap 3B in that scenario.

Are we still basing Brown's potential on scouting reports from 2009?

Barring three OF acquisitions and considering our in-house options, a starting corner OF should be Ruf's to lose going into Spring Training.

This isn't a statement that Ruf is "the savior", but I have more faith in his building on a successful 2012 than I do in the quartet of Brown/Mayberry/Nix/ Schierholtz, even in a platoon role.

Hated the Wigginton and Qualls signings from the start. And I should have had a lot more company. Of course, everyone hated the Schneider signing. And by the end of 2011, everyone knew Martinez didn't belong on a major league roster. Except for Rube and Charlie. I also thought Doc was hiding an injury, as did others on the board, but we were advised that we don't know an injured pitcher from an uninjured one.

Didn't mind Thome, as I thought he would be an improvement on an unhealthy Gload. Maybe the new Matt Stairs. As it turned out, Thome had his own health problems.

But to be fair, I also thought Mayberry had figured out how to hit. And I didn't like the Papelbon signing. Still don't like the price or the length, but he was about what was expected.

I heartily applaud Rube Jr. for ridding the organization of a fallen warrior in Polanco, a guy who had amazing stuff when he was healthy in Contreras, and a guy who should have played on Denver's AAA team this year in Wigginton.

I was looking at Choo again and the numbers that he puts up are pretty much what I hope to get out of Brown. I'd still pursue him.

or Nix?

Posted by: DPatrone | Monday, October 29, 2012 at 08:57 PM

Isn't Nix under contract?

***Isn't Nix under contract?***

Yes, yes he is.

Another 2 year special by Ruben.

***I was looking at Choo again and the numbers that he puts up are pretty much what I hope to get out of Brown. I'd still pursue him.***

If Brown ever posts a 132 OPS+ (Choo's career average), I'd be ecstatic.


If Brown ever posts a 132 OPS+ (Choo's career average), I'd be ecstatic.

Posted by: NEPP | Monday, October 29, 2012 at 10:32 PM

I was thinking the same thing NEPP

I just don't think the Phils have the assets to start acquiring all star caliber talent, but a guy like Choo is someone they can get - a rental from a small market last place team.

Phils taking on his salary next year, likely around $8M, and stocking them with 1 cheap mlb player(most likely worley) and a couple mid teir guys around AA could be enough to get it done.

Choo is a pretty rare player - his ground ball, line drive, babip numbers look like a speedy slap hitter, but then he has K%,BB% and hr/fb% numbers like a slugger. In the end he gives you an all around type game with 20/20 potential - just a pretty odd way to get there.

David Wright for Dom Brown?

I mean more as a skill set/ceiling match. Brown has, or had prior to his hand injury, some power, I don't think 20 homers is out of the realm of possibility. Brown has shown a similar ability to draw walks. He just hasn't hit as well. Also, Choo didn't really come together until he was 25/26 which isn't the most unusual thing. Choo's OPS+ at age 24 was 94. Dom's is 90. Not a serious gap. I can't assure anyone that Dom will have a similar career path but he isn't that far off so far.

"Would like to point out that the agent who instituted the buyout clause so all of these players get money for nothing belongs in the same Sports Hall of Shame . . . I understand the buyouts are necessary and often in place of an additional year and can be deal-sweeteners, but they are stupid nonetheless. "

Sports agents didn't invent the concept. The buy-out/ severance clause has been a feature of executive compensation contracts for quite some time. It is part of the price of attracting talent in sports and out. Understand why people can't relate as at-will employment is the lot of most.

Sorry phans. I was thinking that Nix somehow might be released, but yes he's under cotract.

Nix has some value as a potential platoon partner, which seemed to be his intended role in '12 before injury derailed his season. Phils could potentially move him and/or Schierholz and/or Brown, depending on how they do in their search for 1 or 2 everyday outfielders, or as part of that effort. Lots of moving pieces but, having Nix under contract for $1.35M in 2013 isn't really a bad thing.

I'll agree with many that Choo is a good player...he is a good additional to the team.

Hugh~ I guess thay have to make choice between Schierholtz and Nix. They are essentially the same player. And they would have to eat Nix's contract if they were to go with Nate over him, so I guess he has the edge.

But you're right, Brown is the wild-card in this thing. But I don't think he has much trade value. He once did but not now. I guess he could be packaged with other players and that package might get a decent player back, but of course, it takes two willing teams.

Choo is sort of like a poor man's Bobby Abreu. I think I've been saying the Phillies should get him for at least the last year.

He does have a couple of glaring issues, though. The first is that he strikes out a ton. That's not a huge issue to me, but it might be to some -- especially since he no longer hits many homeruns. The larger issue to me is that he has been utterly horrific against LHP over the last 3 years -- and last year was the worst of all. I'm not sure that's a great fit for a lineup which already has Howard and Utley.

Re: Brown.
For a few years now everyone has been calling for the Phillies to get younger. Brown is waht getting younger looks like. Young players are by definition unproven. You don't know exactly what you will get. The only way to find out is to go and give him the ABs. Not a platoon. Not a battle for the starting job in 50 Spring Training ABs. That's the hard part about getting young. If everyone is expecting the youth movement to look like Mike Trout and Stephen Stasburg, get serious.

As for Contreras, he missed most of the season with a torn UCL in his elbow. At 40 56, his career is in doubt.

Fixed that typo for you, Jason.

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