Worst loss of the season? Too many to count

"When you're five games below .500 and eight games out of the last playoff spot with 29 left, it is a mathematical impossibility to suffer your worst loss ever," argues one reader. "Hell, it wasn't even the worst loss of the year on games ending on Chipper Jones walk-off homeruns."

Worst loss of the year? "I honestly can't even keep track at this point. There have been so many of them. The three that would probably stand out in anyone's mind are the Jordany Valdespin walk-off, the Cliff Lee 10-inning shutout, and the 15-13 loss on the first Chipper Jones walk-off. But discerning the worst loss is largely a matter of aesthetics." - bay_area_phan (who also contributed the summary quote)

Pap smear: "Papelbon is 31 for 35 in save situations (89 percent) this year. He also has come into a tie game four times and lost it by giving up at least a run. Also had another appearance where he blew the lead but the Phils game back to win (Thome PH walk-off vs Rays on June 23). So Papelbon has blown eight games this year where the Phils were ahead/tied when he appeared in 43 appearances. Need to see other similar numbers for benchmark comparison but that isn't terribly impressive.

"I don't know many Phils' fans who have taken a likening to him. On the field, he works at a crawling pace and combines it with his unnecessary theatrics. Off the field, Papelbon just comes out as your prototypical meathead athlete. Almost always think of Nuke LaLoosh when Papelbon speaks. It almost painful at times to watch him give interviews especially after a game." - MG

Frandsen's fatal error: "You can watch the play on video. It was pretty routine. It did take a bad hop at the end, which made it look like a tough play. But it would never have taken than bad hop if Kevin Frandsen had charged it and played it on the high hop -- which most third baseman would have done without any great difficulty. There was absolutely no risk to charging it. It was not a hot smash, but a slow hopper. It was not going to go down the line if he had misplayed it." - bay_area_phan

Comments

[Scotch Man]

I don't know why I was but I was seriously stunned after that game. I didn't move for a good half hour. It's the kind of loss that makes you want to enjoy whatever events are going on today and forget the Phillies exist for a day. I for one wouldn't expect a W today.

[clout]

Iceman: You missed the point of my previous posts. I am in no way defending Papelbon. A blown save is a blown save.

My point is that because of overriding agendas on BL, the Frandsen misplay wasn't even mentioned post-game until I brought it up. If Frandsen makes the play (as 95% of all thirdbasemen in baseball would) Paps never faces Chipper.

That's not a defense of Papelbon. It is a statement of fact.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I wasn't stunned at all; felt absolutely inevitable after Horst walked Janusch and Manuel waived Papelbon in the game. That's no knock on Papelbon. That game was the 2012 Phillies in a nutshell.

Oh, and I give up on MLB scoring. Phils defense has fallen off a cliff. 3 errors and 4 unearned runs should show in this morning's box score and, that's hardly a singular event.

[Jr.]

Told the wife: No way I pitch to Chipper. Don't care if he is the lead run,WALK HIM.That wasn't hindsight,it was foresight.
Whose contract is worse
A.Howard
B. Rollins
C.Paps.

[Chuck A.]

There can't even be any MENTION of any defense Papelbon. Regardless of Frandsen's handling of the play, Papelbon, as a highly-paid, PREMIER closer HAS to get the team out of that inning with a 4 run lead. It's that simple.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Chuck A. - he did. Got a grounder from Prado that Frandsen misplayed. Struck out Bourne and hte ump called it ball 4. If your position is htat he has to retire a future hall of famer after those two things happen, I like the fact that you have such high standards but . . .

[clout]

Hugh: MLB scoring is now a ridiculous joke. Even the most egregious errors are ruled hits.

[GM-Carson]

Labor Day is the "unofficial" end of Summer. The Phillies season "unofficially" ended in April.

[Chuck A.]

Hugh - I disagree. What he threw Chipper was a fastball...a hittable fastball...plain and simple. He didn't even TRY to make him chase. I agree with what Jr. said....walk him if it comes to that. You can't let a guy like Chipper beat you.

Yes, Frandsen muffed that play. And yes, Bourn should have been struck out, but you can't blame the umps when you come in with a 4-run lead like that.

[Scott]

The pitch to Bourne was slightly high. The replay showed that. I wouldn't call MLB scoring a joke, as jokes are supposed to be funny. I'd call MLB scoring a travesty. Also, it isn't Papelbon's fault that he's paid so much. That blame goes to Ruin Tomorrow, Jr.

[GM-Carson]

Clout- I complain about that all time. How are relatively routine plays that are misplayed ruled hits. It's bull. I remember a game earlier this year when a ball was hit directly at Howard, he literally didn't move his feet and the ball went under his glove and was ruled a f'n hit. Pitiful.

[RR]

1) 4 games under .500 and not 6
2) 7 GB the 2WC and not 8
3) holding 3rd place over the Mets insteady of tying for it
4) 4-game winning streak heading into CIN (and the Cloyd and Kendrick starts)
5) sweeping ATL in ATL
6) preserving the mega-millions starter's 15th win, a career high if he gets it
7) not having a lousy flight to CIN

If any or all of these things are important, how about not stretching rookie relievers and telling Papelbon early that he's getting the 9th, no matter what?

[Bert Wedemeyer]

Paps fastball ain't fast enough. It's also too straight.

[RR]

15 would tie CH's career high, not set a new high

[wes covington's ghost]

Magic number is 3......3 years until Papelbon is gone.

[EastFallowfield]

Of course, we had a totally awesome unexpected win just a few days ago against a better closer, so in that category we basically pushed in the series, with the Phils winning the less dramatic middle game.

[RR]

These guys aren't robots. Frandsen's error aside, generally speaking the manager and pitching coach have to put rookies like Horst and veterans like JP in a position to be successful. Who wasn't nervous each batter after Hamels gave up those last two runs and especially after he left with nine outs to go? I was. I couldn't imagine bringing Horst back out for the 9th. They have a legion of relievers on hand, almost any different look would have been better. They have to anticipate such scenarios before they happen. Creative imagination based on paranoid belief that something could go wrong. Now, if testing Horst is more important than winning, then that's a different story.

[The hook]

Should have swept the mets and braves. Would have loved teams chances going forward. Would have only been say 4 back heading into cini rather then 8. Cards and pirates and dbacks still giving it away and this team doesnt want to take it. Only thing that I question is. I didn't see game, but how come Cole was take out in 6th? Pitch count high. Backdoor trots? Just wonder that's all

[EastFallowfield]

Shoulda lost the opener when Kimbrel was into close the game...

[cut_fastball]

RR -- Charlie Manual's folksy "manage by gut" style has run its course here. I can't imagine him getting another contract. However, he's got another year to go, on a team that never squanders contracts. Regardless, this team was desperate for a smart and flexible manager that could effectively manage the bullpen. The adjectives “smart and flexible” might not apply to Charlie. There’s a reason he’s only reached #2 in Manager of the Year voting despite all the wins on his watch.

The signing of that pompous blowhard Papelbon has really scarred me. Yesterday evening was his for the taking; doesn't he know any MLB hitter can turn on a fastball? Especially after offering 2 in the same vicinity? This says it all about this clown:

…But, when you're evaluating the overall performance of your closer, you've surely got to factor in those 6 losses -- which is a downright ugly total for a closer. Among NL closers, only Axford has more losses, and Axford has been downright awful this year.
Posted by: bay_area_phan | Monday, September 03, 2012 at 12:42 AM

How is Papelbon "vested" in this team's struggles if he gets his $50mm, regardless? The "Cinco Ocho" B.S., and his cryptic interviews were old before they started. His is a contract I'd love to see dumped.

I once felt Cliff Lee’s contract should go, too. However, it's pretty clear Cliff came here to get a ring. Some of Cliff's comments after crushing losses have been pretty laissez-faire, but it's my guess that's his coping mechanism to keep himself from going nuts.

Finally, I hope the limited partnership is watching RAJ very, very closely this off-season. In my estimation, it’s flat-out impossible to rebuild and contend at the same time. Regardless – and Eric Kratz may have lighted our burden just a bit – we remain with needs at 3rd; back-up at 2nd; at least 2 outfield positions and heck, the whole freakin' bullpen. Finally, anyone really believe that JMJ is the right-hand bat in the 5-hole protecting Howard? I love Mayberry, but he comes up small way too often.

This team is a mess. I’d love to see a ground-up reconstruction, but they’ve committed way too much to aging players. And that’s on Amaro.

[Alberto Rossas]

Have you seen a pretty olé? My footwork was as sweet as any matador's, and my glove wave rivaled El Cordobés best pass.

[RR]

cut_fastball ... "This team is a mess. I’d love to see a ground-up reconstruction, but they’ve committed way too much to aging players. And that’s on Amaro."

It's difficult to disagree, particularly about not paying two managers next year. But at the same time, "going for it" in 2010-2011 was better than the boredom of managed contention, like they have in ATL: be in the conversation, but don't define it. This Phillies core was able in the past to cover for a variety of mistakes and omissions by management, by umpires, by individual players. Those days are clearly over, so time to tighten up the field operation, including in the dugout. Otherwise, more of the same in 2013.

[aksmith]

Clout - Saw your dick move on the last thread. Yeah, Frandsen has had nothing to do with winning a bunch of games since becoming the starter at third. Has a stinker and he's not starting material.

By that same metric, Papelbon should be replaced by "some guy" at closer next season.

It's very possible that Frandsen isn't the starting third baseman we all want. However, he's had a lot more positive plays than negative ones. And he's been better than anything the Phillies have trotted out there in at least a couple of years.

The Phillies generally had one game like this each season, even when they've been a very good team. This season, the Phillies have a pretty large number of these games. And they're not a very good team. Seems about right.

[HammRadio]

i wanted to see how many times Chipper has beat us with a walk-off... because it feels like its been 100.

He has 9 Walk-Off homers and 15 game ending Rbis. only 2 of them were against the Phillies.. This year.

Hard to believe.

I knew last night that he was walking off... said to the guys in the bar after my fantasy draft. "He's walking off here". Next pitch. gone.

If only I could pick my fantasy team as well.

You can't fire your team. but the frustrations of these crushing losses this season have to be boiling over in the clubhouse. Next year... I don't know when the team comes back for spring training would be happy if they see the same coaching staff. I wouldn't.

[Bake Mcbride Was Here]

I guess I've gotten used to seeing Papelbon around and all. But he still doesn't seem like a Phillie to me . . . well, except perhaps when he blows a save.

[CN]

Brown's back in the lineup.

Rollins, SS
Pierre, LF
Utley, 2B
Howard, 1B
Mayberry, CF
Brown, RF
Frandsen, 3B
Lerud, C
Cloyd, P

[Scott]

The "Fireballing Redneck" thing almost always gets old in these parts. See: Williams, Mitch, Wagner, Billy, Myers, Brett, and Papelbon, Jonathan.

[clout]

aksmith: Your lack of baseball knowledge and bad judgment speaks for itself and is apparent to anyone who reads your posts, but even you can't believe this: "And he's been better than anything the Phillies have trotted out there in at least a couple of years."

"A couple of years" ago, Placido Polanco provided a line of .298/.339/.386 in 602 PAs while playing near Gold Glove defense.

And yet you say Kevin Frandsen, based on 131 PAs and playing a position that he only started at in 42 games in his career prior to this year, is better than that.

This is why none of the knowledgeable fans on this site take you seriously.

[lorecore]

Glad to see DOM back in the lineup, when he's not in the lineup, there really isn't any individual worth paying attention to. i guess Kratz is a close second, and then the pair Aumont/DeFratus.

Everyone else has basically no chance to change their reputation/expectation for next year in these last 30 games

[lorecore]

Oh yea, i forgot Martinez and his 2 OPS+. One of the things to watch for is if he can it into the negatives, i think another 7-8 PA should do it.

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread

[mainerob]

It is incomprehensible to me that Manuel should even be considered to return next season. It would be like removing most of the arsenic from the groundwater supply to make it slightly less poisonous. By that I mean, if there are to be significant player purges and acquisitions for a do-over in 2013, the same philosophy has to apply to management to include the manager and his staff.

I don't see Amaro being fired, although one could make a strong case in that direction, but to return Manuel and his staff when they are equally culpable for this fiasco is ludicrous. Having lost out on Ryne Sandberg's Hall of Fame playing career, the Phillies cannot afford to let it happen again in his present capacity.

[Taggs24]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet in this chain, but Howard's ole of a ground ball back in the 6th inning of that Sunday game led to a 2nd and 3rd base situation for the Braves with two outs - and then Reed Johnson singled them in to make 7-3. I blame Howard for this loss and letting the Braves back into striking distance. If Howard throws his body in front of that ball like every professional ball player should do, we still win that game 7-5 assuming the next batter after Jones is retired. Point is -it would have been a 6 run lead in the 9th and not a 4 run lead.