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Wednesday, September 19, 2012


I agree that it's probably unfair to judge Howard by the AB's he's had when no one even expected him to be playing for virtually all of this season. And he's noticeably still hobbled. To pretend that's not having an impact is naive. He's a concern, but I'll save my frustration until he's putting up the same numbers next season when he's healthy.

Agreed that he needs more rest (and should arguably just shut it down once this thing is officially out of reach).

But JW, where's the real hard hitting journalism? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BRUNTLETT THREAD????

Rollins has had a pretty traditional career track, with his peak coming in his age 28 season in 2007. 2009 was a disappointing season followed by a down injury-fueled 2010.

But the last two years are more what we should expect based on his career path, assuming he's healthy.

All threads are equal but some threads are more equal than others.

re: jroll

20hr/30sb by a 33yr old shortstop is not rare, its unprecedented, without even having to factor in the SS being an above average fielder. You have to trim down the age and position criteria to move it back into just plain old "rare".

His rate states lag behind the level of a true "difference maker", but his power/speed combo at a premium defense position is undeniable value.

The Phils seem to be reckless with their property. i.e. ball players. Worley now Howard all playing when they should not be.

I don't get it. WHy risk future playing time for a decidedly unlikely WC finish.

But again this is Philly management style.

I hate feeling autumn in the air, minus the excitement. Damn.

It's surely debatable, but I think Worley and Howard were both cleared to play, medically speaking, without increased likelihood of further injury from doing so. While our chances weren't great for a WC, they weren't out of reach, either. So I submit that the reason Worley continued to pitch until it became clear he could not be effective was: Tyler Cloyd. And the reason Howard continues to play is: 46 RBIs.

I do think that since the debacle in Houston, and seeing how he's struggling, we could give Howard a lighter work load.

NEPP: 2+2=5?

Maybe it's only what I've read on here, but at this point isn't it basically all rehab for Howard? I agree he's been medically cleared and think I've read that his playing does not increase the chance of a reinjury. What good does shutting him down do unless it aids his rehab?

You know... if games were only 7 innings long...

STS: The Phillies rise in the standings have made Howard's rehab a secondary issue. The primary has became making the playoffs, so I understand why the clamoring for Howard to sit is getting louder.

However, except for an unproven Darin Ruf, they have no legit options since Wigginton sucks, Nix has sucked since returning from the DL and Mayberry is basically the only CF on roster so he can't play 1B.

Widely-held view on Beerleaguer around 3 weeks ago: "I don't care how hard he throws. When a guy goes 15-1 with a 2.26 ERA, he clearly knows how to pitch. What are the Phillies thinking letting this guy rot at AAA?"

Widely-held view on Beerleaguer today: "I don't care if he went 15-1 with a 2.26 ERA in the minors. If a guy's fast ball tops out at 86 MPH, he won't get big league hitters out. What were the Phillies thinking calling up this guy instead of Pettibone/Martin/Morgan?

Must have been a tornado, sucking up the Eric Brunlett rainout gnome thread. I fear he's gone forever to the land of oz.

bay_area_phan: Now, if I said Cloyd was old for his level, you'd be all fired up!

lorecore, Mayberry the only CF on the roster?

Maybe you've forgotten about a guy named Michael Martinez.

He can do it all!

b_a_p: Mixed feelings on Cloyd. I don't love what I've seen so far, but then again I don't hate it, either. And I'd have no qualms w/ him continuing to start if the Phils didn't insist upon doing just enough to around in Bud's annoyingly contrived Postseason race. Potential long relief candidate, perhaps?

"bay_area_phan: Now, if I said Cloyd was old for his level, you'd be all fired up!"

You better believe it!

Stubhub business is picking up. Sold 4 primo seats for Saturday in HOF Club behind home plate for net face value+ after the 15% cut Stubhub takes. Much better than July/August when you couldn't give them away. Will still be a sellers market if the Phils sweep the Mutts, but if not it'll be "Jack, sell 'em for less....."

BAP: A cinematic action shot of Tyler Cloyd drapes across the cover for this years issue of BAP's Scouting for Dummies: How to Search Baseball Reference for Minor League Stats Regardless of Age and Level of Competition, and Trust Them Over Thousand of Actual Scouting Reports

also a little bit of friendly advice, you should work on shortening that title.

GTown: I could see him in long relief and as a spot starter. He throws strikes and his "stuff" (such as it is) might play better out of the pen, because it contrasts so much with what the opposing batters have seen up to that point.

At this point, I think the jury is still out on him. He has had 1 very good outing, 1 very bad one, 1 so-so one, and 1 which can't really be counted against him because of the circumstances.

Tyler Cloyd or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

Cloyd's had 3 starts including one of those on 3 days rest which he had never done before.

Issues with him so far are the same ones in the minors - can he survive at the MLB level as a FB pitcher and can he improve his cutter enough to make it effective enough so that LHB don't tee-off on him.

He's had pretty good command and was pretty effective in his 2 first starts at spotting his 4-seam fastball on the corners.

NEPP - Thread winner.

Make that 4 starts. Sorry.

Moyer managed to win year in year out and I think compared to him Cloyd has a mean fast ball. SO maybe we just back off a little and give Cloyd a little time to adjust.

WOuld alsoliek to see Howard sit down and see what if anythign Ruf can do.

I'm not selling on Cloyd yet. The difference between Cloyd and some other wild card like Pettibone or Martin or Morgan isn't going to keep the team out of the playoffs. They did that to themselves in Houston. Might as well give him a look, because there probably won't be another opportunity like this next year (well, hopefully they aren't irrelevant).

That being said, starting Cloyd on short rest was one of the dumbest decisions of the season by the coaches/FO staff, and that is certainly saying something.

lorecore: I trust scouting reports for pitchers a lot more than for everyday players. Even for pitchers, though, my trust in scouting reports is not absolute. If a guy is 15-1 with a 2.26 ERA at AA and AAA, I want to see, for my own, if he can pitch at the major league level. I'm not going to take it on faith that he can't, just because scouts say so.

bay_area_phan: I also think that's his long term potential. He'd be a 5th starter on a bad team, or could be a long-reliever spot starter on a good team.

"That being said, starting Cloyd on short rest was one of the dumbest decisions of the season by the coaches/FO staff, and that is certainly saying something. "

I got the first "bullpen game" tops on that list.

Cloyd. total agree with lorcore. I think he would be more benifical out of the bullpen.Plus he could go extra innings if need be. Just as long as he doesn't go long enough to see batters twice.

Still think Jonathan Broxton would fit nicely. He has experience as a reliever and a closer. and not to shabby. I don't think he would cost that much. Plus I don't think he would want a long contract

lorecore: I think it's close to a tie between those two decisions. The reason I think the Cloyd decision was worse was that, first off, he'd never done it before, and he'd had 3 MLB starts before being thrust into the position. Making it even worse was the opponent- Houston- is a lineup that even our sorry bullpen could've shut down over 9 innings, actually making the BP game a BETTER decision in this case (although personally, I wanted to see a guy like Pettibone or Martin get a chance 1 or 2 times the lineup on regular rest).

If we're talking bigger picture, though, the worst decision is obviously Mini Mart being on the roster at all.

Ruiz catching Broxton would be pretty damn funny.

Let's try to avoid the Jamie Moyer comparisons. There's a reason there's really only ever been one Jamie Moyer. Also, being left handed makes a huge difference as well.

I'm going to work under the assumption that Cloyd posted those minor league numbers because he had some great control (clearly not based on blowing guys away with "stuff").

Control is also very important and can translate well in the bigs (even more so than stuff, actually). That said, he hasn't shown much of it since his call up. He's been prone to giving up the long ball and has a 1.35 WHIP (heavier on the hits, less the BB's).

I think he can be serviceable (I'm learning my lesson from the "Kendrick can't be a MLB caliber pitcher" mistake), but MLB hitters are a whole different animal than the minor league guys. He'll need to regain, then even improve on, his control.

[wondering if I used the word "control" enough in my previous post to trigger clout's Google alert]

willard: to correct you a bit and set of clout's google alert even more - you are speaking of 'command' not control. Control, the ability to throw strikes, to not enough for guys like Cloyd. Command, the ability locate within(or out of) the strike zone, is what cloyd requires for success.

On the other hand, a guy like Aumont doesn't need command, he just needs control.

lorecore, yeah, that's actually what I meant.

Thanks for clarifying.

Net/net, Cloyd need to be pinpoint accurate, which he may have been to some degree in AA and AAA. He needs to be as accurate, and candidly, even more so now that he's facing the big boys.

Zolecki tweets tonight's lineup:
Rollins SS, Pierre LF, Utley 2B, Howard 1B, Ruiz C, Brown RF, Mayberry CF, Frandsen 3B, Hamels P.

I like the start for Pierre, he was one of the few guys who looked good against Harvey last start.

Is Cloyd the new Kendrick?

Kendrick is the only Kendrick.


Cloyd is the new J.D. Durbin.

That wasn't supposed to mean anything. I just wanted to mention the name J.D. Durbin.


Real Deal Cloyd just doesn't the right ring to it.

Cloyd Condrey?

Is Cloyd the new Kendrick?

Cloyd is the poor man's Kendrick.

Kendrick is the poor man's Kendrick.

Tyler Roa.

iceman how is chooch catching broxton that funny?

The only reason Tyler Cloyd isn't an all star so far is that he's not allowed to pitch against the Phillies.

Damnb, can't believe I'm sitting the bench behind that stiff with the broken leg! FML!!!

Kendrick is the poor man's Kendrick.

Posted by: GTown_Dave | Wednesday, September 19, 2012 at 04:09 PM

GTown -- After too many looong hours, and a few more hours to go, that struck me as funny.

Yo, newer thread

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