Sunday chat: Phils look to take a bite from Braves

The Phillies try to maintain their steady second-half ascent in a 5:05 p.m. tilt Sunday evening against the Braves. The Phils have taken two from the Wild Card leaders to climb to eight back.

De Fratus, Diekman promoted: As expected, the Phillies have promoted right-hander Justin De Fratus and lefty Jake Diekman from Triple-A Lehigh Valley. The IronPigs were eliminated from postseason contention on Saturday. De Fratus, 24, was 0-1 with a 2.49 ERA and 22/3 K/BB in 21 2-3 innings. Elbow problems cut his season season short right out of the chute in spring training. Otherwise, he would have been part of the bullpen picture. De Fratus, who appeared in five games with the Phillies last season, is considered a top prospect based on his ability to not only miss bats, but throw strikes. This will be Diekman's second stint with the club. The lefty showed flashes of promise over a two-and-a-half month audition with the parent club, but struggled with his command, posting a 29/15 K/BB in 21 1-3 innings. Diekman and the Phils should benefit from the favorable matches the expanded roster will provide.

Meanwhile, the Phils are keeping their names in the discussion for a miracle Wild Card berth and have played about as well as anyone in the current field of late. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[Buy sell]

Wither. Should be with

Frandsen been playing good 3B, he had a tough play there.

The real question to be asked is why did Charlie let Horst start the 9th?

[Murray]

Loss worth it if it helps them decide that Fransden isn't the answer at 3B next year.

[MG]

Not good when you have a tough time making a 'Top 3' crushing losses list. Several strong candidates including this game.

[can_of_corn]

I expected someone challenge my comment, so thanks. I agree it is not logical in some ways.

But I was musing that Papelbon had one job in that game for a very short period of time. The position player does many things--some good, some not-so-good--over several hours. That does not at all excuse a position player for a misplay.

Yet in terms of expectations for an appearance, Papelbon botched a bigger percentage of his role and his playing time. I know this makes no sense in terms of official baseball statistics. It just seems that a specialist in any field should be depended upon to handle that speciality.

[clout]

Frandsen been playing good 3B, he had a tough play there.

The real question to be asked is why did Charlie let Horst start the 9th?

Posted by: | Sunday, September 02, 2012 at 09:31 PM

I'd be embarrassed to sign my name too if I made a post this stupid.

[bay_area_phan]

When you're 5 games below .500 & 8 games out of the last playoff spot with 29 left, it is a mathematical impossibility to suffer your worst loss ever. Hell, it wasn't even the worst loss of the year on games ending on Chipper Jones walk-off homeruns. That honor would go to the 11-inning 15-13 loss back in May, where Halladay blew a 6-0 lead.

[Buy sell]

RR at 914 -- right on ---> BULLPEN MISMANAGEMENT

C of Corn at 9:14 last paragraph -- right on ---> Frandsen probably ( i think definitely) playing hurt..

[clout]

BAP: "Hell, it wasn't even the worst loss of the year on games ending on Chipper Jones walk-off homeruns."

Exactly right, once again.

[Will Schweitzer]

Valuable insight clout. I wonder if anyone would miss you if you disappeared...from anywhere.

Sad, sad little man.

[clout]

Buy sell: Was Frandsen hurt when he threw a ball into the dirt earlier in the game on a grounder that he had tons of time on?

[Chuck A.]

Love him or hate him you gotta admit that Chipper is a damn good player that has had lots of these big moments in his great career. I don't mind getting beat by these kind of players.

[Jack]

Although I obviously think it's laughably stupid to pay a closer even as good as Papelbon the sort of money he's getting, can we stop with the "he can't come through in a big spot" meme?

Almost by definition, every spot Papelbon pitches in is a significant and meaningful one. He only pitches when the game is in the balance. He does it successfully 85% of the time, and fails 15% of the time.

And just as BAP said that can't be the worst loss of the year, so you can't use it as an example of Papelbon "choking." A playoff game? Sure. A game in September when the team is under .500 and has virtually been eliminated from any playoff contention cannot qualify as a "big spot" to fail in. Sorry, just doesn't.

[MIKE FONTENOT]

Miss me?

Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha.....

Do you know how bad you looked HAHAHAHA..

[Chuck A.]

Is an 85% success rate good enough for a frontline closer?? I mean, I don't have the answer but that just seems like a low percentage to me.

I'd be embarrassed to sign my name too if I made a post this stupid.

===============

Ok Clout, why was it smart to let Horst start the 9th after pitching an out in the 7th and the entire 8th. How many times has he gone that long in game? How many times has he tossed over 30 pitches in a game?

He should have been done after the 8th. No questions about it. It was a poor move to start him in the 9th and let him in there for after walking the 1st batter.

Have more then enough pitchers in the bullpen now to let them start the inning, not letting a guy go longer then he has & do multiple innings.

So it was a bad move Clout

Oh that ball he threw to 1B should have been scoped by Howard too.

If anything Howard has been missing alot of scopes. Its like he is afraid to bend down ( which would angle his ankle ) lately.

[Buy sell]

Clout -- what we all do without you?

If it was after the 1b mishap, yes

If it was before the 1b mishap , nov

Hope that was a simple enough explanation..

Have a nice day off... /: !

[clout]

Buy sell: Sorry you didn't get to watch the game.

[CN]

Releasing Mike Fontenot was worth it for the versatility Mike Martinez brings.

[MG]

Papelbon is 31 for 35 in SV (89%) this year.

He also has come into a tie game 4 times this year and lost it by giving up at least a run. Also had another appearance where he blew the lead but the Phils game back to win (Thome PH walk-off vs Rays on June 23)

So Papelbon has blown 8 games this year where the Phils were ahead/tied when he appeared in 43 appearances.

Need to see other similar numbers for benchmark comparison but that isn't terribly impressive.

[MG]

Meant 9 times.

[MG]

44 games.

[bay_area_phan]

Worst loss of the year? I honestly can't even keep track at this point. There have been so many of them. The 3 that would probably stand out in anyone's mind are the Valdespin walk-off, the Cliff Lee 10-inning shutout, and the 15-13 loss on the first Chipper Jones walkoff. But discerning the worst loss is largely a matter of aesthetics.

For me, the two types of losses which have stung the most have been the games where I came away thinking that, in years past, we would almost certainly have won. These games fall into two sub-groups in my mind. The first sub-group are the games where we got off to a comfortable lead, only to have a supposedly reliable starting pitcher (usually, but not always, Lee) completely melt down. The second sub-group are the many losses where we fell behind, staged a comeback, but ultimately lost anyhow. There were more games like this than I can count -- although the three that stand out in my mind are the bullpen game where Valdes started, the game against Clayton Kershaw, where we came from 3 runs behind only to have Papelbon blow it in the 9th, and a particularly hideous loss to the Twins where we came back from 5 runs down, pulled within a run, but guys like Savery & Rosenberg just continued to leak away more runs until it ultimately became too much to overcome.

[GBrettFan]

I agree with BAP. How can this be a crushing loss when we're out of realistic contention? My hopes were crushed before the All-Star break. I suffered most of my baseball blues in May and June.

I'd blissfully forgotten all the individual losses - they all blur in my mind, melding into one big black cloud of bad baseball - But now that you remind me of it, watching Halladay blow a 6-run lead & losing in 11 was awful.

[bay_area_phan]

"why was it smart to let Horst start the 9th after pitching an out in the 7th and the entire 8th."

Because Heyward was leading off, he can't hit LHP, & LH hitters have a .506 OPS off Horst this year. Oh yeah, and Horst retired him. So, if he recorded an out against the first hitter, how on earth can one argue that letting him start the inning was an error that cost us the game?

It wasn't letting him START the inning which was an error. The error was letting him face the next 2 hitters, who were both RH. Again, though, on the list of things that affected the outcome of the game, this ranks pretty low. When you have your best reliever in the game with a 4-run lead in the 9th inning, I don't know how people can be harping on an earlier managerial decision as the cause of the loss.

[CousinIT]

T-Mac announced the Chevrolet player of the game was Cole Hamels before the game was over?

If ever there was to be scientific evidence that jinxes are possible, and in fact do exist, McCarthy would be it - he's uncanny.

No more discussion of playoffs after a loss like that. Playoffs?... You talking about Playoffs??

Don't think I'll ever really trust the 50 million dollar a year closer for how ever long he's here.

BAP: Nope. You don't let him start. You were up by 4 runs, you could have let one of the other LHP come in the game fresh.

OR if you HAVE to start Horst then you take him out after the first out or yank him after the first walk.

Was no reason to let him go out there, put up a high pitch count an walk two batters.

[Will Schweitzer]

Frandsen booted a play. Because it fits the character he has created for himself on the internet, this is the only flaw that clout is willing to accept. Everything else can be ignored, and anyone who discusses any other contributing factors for the loss is a moron.

Don't mistake this clown for a Phillies fan. He is a grown man who was bullied as a child, has no social life as an adult, and logs onto his computer to feel like a big, important man between shifts at the gas station.

[CousinIT]

Oh yeah, Horst shouldn't have been facing the RH batters - I'm not sure what the thinking was there - would like to here what UC had to say

[mainerob]

OK, bap, you've said it twice, so I will respond. It must be the fog in SF, or the mist on your lenses. Usually, I like and respect your posts. This time, not so much, so I'll respond: Where in my long-ago post did I say that I blame Manuel solely for the loss? If you care to look back, I put the ultimate blame on Papelbon. His job is to save games. He was given a very comfortable cushion, but...

...as I said about Manuel, his job is to put his players in the best position to succeed.
with a host of relievers rested and ready to start the 9th, he should never sent out Horst to start the inning. First bad decision. Papelbon is best suited to come in to start the 9th. Didn't happen. Second bad decision. I'm certain that Manuel felt he could never, ever put Papelbon in in a non-save situation. If he wanted to play the righty-lefty game in a non-save situation, he should have started the 9th with Valdez.

So, in conclusion, Papelbon blew the save and the game. Manuel was complicit in the process by mishandling his bullpen. If this were a trial, Papelbon gets charged with a misdemeanor. Manuel gets a lesser charge of being an accessory.

Don't need a response.

[Iceman]

A crushing loss is a crushing loss. I don't necessarily think it needs to be qualified because it of how back in the standings we are. It sucked, period.

Don't think I've ever disagreed with clout more than I have with his vigorous defense of Papelbon. Frandsen blew his play (though I don't think I'd call it routine, like some plays Fontenot booted earlier in the year). I don't think it's really relevant at all what kind of play it was, to be honest. Papelbon had to get three outs before giving up three runs, and he walked a guy and threw a fat fastball to a HOF hitter before getting them. He is paid a large sum of money to do a relatively limited amount of work. He's done OK this year, but has failed way too much to be defended on any level. Jack's argument that he's not a choke artist is particularly irrelevant and particularly hilarious. Whether or not he's 'choking' is beside the point. The point is he's not a pitcher that can really be depended upon because he isn't really that great. And he certainly isn't a guy that 'steps it up' when it counts (which I believe is a skill that exists, though some nerds won't agree because you can't put a number behind it). So what exactly are we paying for, and why exactly should we tolerate the douchebag sloth act he puts on every appearance?

JW mentioned this week (or last, I forget) that he watches Pap pitch and wonders how he gets anyone out. I agree with this assessment. Jones is a HOF, but it didn't take much for him to wait on a hittable fastball in that AB, because it's all Papelbon has. He doesn't have many bullets in the chamber. And he failed at his one job again today, with a four run lead. Not sure how you can pin this loss on anybody else. Nobody had an error that allowed the winning run to score without giving Pap a chance to finish the job or something like that. We could be paying a guy pennies to do the quality of job this guy has done this year overall. And I doubt his fastball will get better with age.

[Bubba]

GBrett-
I'd blissfully forgotten all the individual losses - they all blur in my mind, melding into one big black cloud of bad baseball -

This should be carved on the gravestone of the 2012 Phillies.
Well said.

[bay_area_phan]

maine: Not to go all lawyer on everyone, but an accessory is not a lesser charge. An accessory to murder is guilty of murder (unless you're talking about an accessory after the fact but never mind . . .).

If I were the D.A. in this instance, I'd charge both Frandsen and Papelbon with felonies -- though I'd seek a stiffer sentence for Papelbon since: (a) I have much higher expectations for him than I do for Frandsen; and (b) he is a habitual offender. I'd give Cholly a slap on the wrist, with community service, for not pulling Horst after he retired Heyward.

[can_of_corn]

So, per MG at 10:08, if we had won all the games in which Pap blew a tie or save, we'd be a wild card contender now. Makes me appreciate Pap even less.

[Iceman]

There are people blaming Manuel for this? Holy crap. There are no words.

They had a four run lead. Manuel would have to literally run out there and blindfold the pitcher to be the culprit here.

[cut_fastball]

Iceman: Au contraire, Mon frere. See LaRussa, Tony. Event: NL Playoffs, 2011.

Think different. Chollie sure as bleep can't.

[Bubba]

We discussed at great length a few weeks ago how the scoring rules for what constitutes a save drives managerial decisions and salaries for very arbitrary reasons.

This evenings game might be an example. If Paps was used to start the 9th would the outcome have been different?
Was Papelbon not mentally prepared or physically warmed up properly because a non-save turned into a save in a couple of AB's?
No way to know really.

What I do know for sure though, is that my hatred for Papelbon , which had cooled somewhat, is now again on full boil.

Rube, if you can find someone to take the RedSox closer and his contract please do it.
You will have the status of boy genius back if you can pull that off.

[MG]

Iceman - I agree. This was on Frandsen and Papelbon. Maybe he pushed Horst one batter too long but he pulled him after he walked Janish.

There are people blaming Manuel for this? Holy crap. There are no words.

They had a four run lead. Manuel would have to literally run out there and blindfold the pitcher to be the culprit here.
-----------------

Horst is a 1 inning pitcher, has been all season. That is why you blame Charlie. He shouldn't have been in their in the 9th. You had more then enough other pitchers to go.

Hell two were just called up that could have been used.

[MG]

As for Papelbon, I don't know many Phils' fans who have taken a likening to him. Maybe they would have if he had a better year this year & been more dominant.

On the field, Papelbon works at a crawling pace and combines it with his unnecessary theatrics. Off the field, Papelbon just comes out as your prototypical meathead athlete even a borderline d!ck. Almost always think of Nuke LaLoosh when Papelbon speaks. It almost painful at times to watch him give interviews especially after a game.

[Al Batross]

One of my favorite themes at BLer are the threads with post after post arguing about who is the most to blame for a loss. They lost. Assigning blame is inherently subjective.

Anyway, we all know who's really to blame.

I blame it on Wheels.

[MG]

Letting Horst start the 9th was the correct move. Heyward has pronounced LH/RH splits and the only other LH the Phils had available was Diekman. No way I want to see Diekman in that spot either given his propensity to walk hitters. Bastardo wasn't available.

Horst got Heyward on a routine fly to CF.
Maybe you can argue that Cholly should have pulled Horst after he gave up a base hit to Johnson or to face Johnson.

Cholly had Nix in LF and Schierholtz in RF and Polanco supposedly wasn't available to play 3b.

People harping on Cholly today are stretching. It stems from a lack of relievers he trusts. I also bet Cholly was trying to avoid having used Papelbon 3 of the last 4 days especially in a non-save situation to start the 9th.

[CousinIT]

What makes me nervous about Pap is that he's had mixed success, including at key times the past couple years in Boston, plus his velo has dropped from his early years.

Closers are so up-and-down anyway it's the argument for why you don't give them long term contracts and why the signing was controversial.

Charlie seems to be vacillating this year between having a quick hook and playing it by the numbers vs. leaving guys in - going with the hot hand. There can be valid arguments for both approaches but idk that Horst has earned the benefit of the doubt yet to leave him in.

Frandsen, well he's been a utility guy all along, he is what he is, and he isn't on a 50 mil contract.

[Bubba]

Polanco not being used for defense in the 9th inning must really indicate:
He's really hurting and is just waiting for Oct to announce retirement, or
Charlie was asleep at the switch.

Maybe both.

Lost opportunity in that game.
Papelbon jerseys are now on the discount rack for all you bargain hunters.

[Iceman]

"For three, even though it's hard to complain about 7 runs, the offense completely shut it down after the third inning -- as they do all too often -- squandering an opportunity to completely put the game away."

Missed this the first time through. Perhaps even dumber than blaming this loss on Manuel.

BAP had some pretty smart comments in this thread but as usual, he cancels it all out with a gem like that.

[bay_area_phan]

It's true that, when a guy only pitches in the final inning, then pretty much every bad outing he has is going to come at the worst possible time. It's also true that Papelbon's overall numbers are good, as is his save percentage. But, when you're evaluating the overall performance of your closer, you've surely got to factor in those 6 losses -- which is a downright ugly total for a closer. Among NL closers, only Axford has more losses, and Axford has been downright awful this year.

[Iceman]

I forget who said it, but there was a suggestion for Cholly to walk Chipper, and that suggestion was mocked.

I'm not so sure it would have been that stupid of an idea. He's a friggin' HOF that is surely looking to end the game in that AB. A first-team Phillie Killer. Sure, he's the winning run, but he's also a gimp, so it would likely take two hits to score him- and if Freeman hits a HR, his run is pointless anyway. And I don't think there's a doubt who you'd rather face in that situation.

I don't know. I can see both sides. But I wouldn't dismiss it outright. Before he even stepped into the batters box, I texted my buddy, "Just f*cking walk him."

[bay_area_phan]

I was thinking they should walk him too. It would go against conventional wisdom, but everything about Chipper Jones's career numbers against the Phillies also goes against conventional wisdom. As soon as he stepped up to the plate, you knew how it was gonna end because whenever he bats against the Phillies in a critical moment, it always ends exactly the same way.

[Bubba]

Chipper's retirement gift from the Phillies should be a ball on a tee mounted on a home plate signed by every Phillies pitcher that has served him up a walkoff HR.

[bay_area_phan]

Hypothetically speaking, if Chipper were to go back on his retirement decision, I believe he'd be a free agent. He has some sort of vesting option but it doesn't look like he'll play enough games for it to vest.

It would damn sure be worth an exploratory phone call to see if he might be enticed into playing one more year. Even if he put up Mini-Mart numbers, the sheer value of never having to face him again would make him worth whatever we paid him.

[Dragon]

Shouldn't have walked Janish (he's Atlanta's Mini-Mart), should have walked Jones, but most of all - the closer should have pitched like a multi-million dollar closer.

[limoguy]

I would take Galvis at third if he adjusted to it defensively as well as he did to playing second.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

That game was over as soon as Jones got to the plate in the 9th. Somehow, Papelbon was compelled by destiny to feed him 3 straight fastballs, until he got a hold of one. Blame the pitching all you want - no way Horst can avoid some blame for walking a guy hitting a buck ninety, either - my culprit in this game is poor fundamental defense at the infield corners.

Howard's ole in the 6th should have been the third out, but, scored teh 1st and 2d runs of the 7 run comeback. Frandsen backing up on the third out in the 9th (after Bourne walked on strike 3) was fundamentally poor. The fact that Heyward and Prado were credited with doubles on those plays shows how far fielding (and scoring) in MLB have eroded over the last 30 years. "Tough plays" that are played incorrectly by fundamentally poor fielders are not "doubles". They are errors in high school and legion ball. But, no longer in MLB.

[EastFallowfield]

Did anyone else get a bad feeling after T-Mac announced the Chevrolet player of the game was Cole Hamels before the game was over?

Think they did that because they wanted to immediately go to the formerly known as Jerry Lewis telethon without any kind of postgame show. I wouldn't know how long the postgame was as I was outta there after the ball landed.

[EastFallowfield]

Worst loss ever came in 1977. Worst loss more recently would be in 2009 or 2011.

[Sil Campusano]

Others have mentioned it, but it is worth repeating: Papelbon falls in love with the fastball. He constantly tries to blow hitters away with it, but it just doesn't work on good hitters (Larry unfortunately included). The split he throws isn't bad; I don't understand why he won't use it at least a little more.

[Will Schweitzer]

It goes against popular opinion, but I believe that closers, by the very nature of the position, are overpaid and unnecessary.

If we are to accept the conventional role of a closer, he is a man who is capable of pitching one inning, after the majority of those who he will face have already played 8 innings of baseball, and their psyche is so fragile that they're less effective if they don't come into the game with the lead. And all of this for the low, low price of $50 million dollars for 1/10th of the work that you get from a 4th starter.

There have been maybe 15 to 20 closers in the past 40 years who have earned their paycheck. The remainder are a waste of money. For how much a closer gets paid for such a small amount of work, he ought to be perfect or very close to perfect every season. Otherwise, it would be wiser to keep a second long man in the pen and use the savings toward someone who can score runs.