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Sunday, September 23, 2012

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Another Roob trade that didn't work out

With all due respect, Bill B., I'll take May 29th and October 6th 2010 alone as proof that the trade DID work out. What has the Blue Jays haul resulted in for them?

The end of the glory days may be near (here?) for Doc but it's been a lot "funner" with him the last few years than it would have been without him IMO.

I think he'll rebound next season but let's be realistic of what that means. He'll be good. He won't be what he was. I'm thinking he can hang around for a while in a Greg Maddux fashion where he'll have great games, horrible games, and he'll have an average of quality starts that he'll stick to.

As for the Phillies in the miracle that they end up in a playoff (a lightning strikes twice miracle at this point), there's a case to be made to hand the ball to Kendrick. Yikes!

Kendrick may as well start training Roy to take over his role as spot starter, long relief and late inning man. KK owes him that much.

On Halladay: In the post PED era, long contracts to aging pitchers do not end well. All the hard work and practice in the world cannot keep them at peak performance and eventually their best is not enough.
I had feared this would happen at the announcement of acquiring Halladay. I hoped we would get 2-3 good years out of him and then some OK years at the end. I never thought his ERA would practically double from last season. It seems so sudden. This off-season he will need to re-examine his entire approach. Next season we will likely see a very different Roy.

On the Team: The window is not closed, yet. They fought their way back to .500, which says a lot. Yes, there are many questions for next season. But they may have found some answers. Howard and Utley seem to be OK. Mayberry, Frandsen, and Pierre could be some more. Though, that second Wild Card is a big factor.

Wow...we're writing Doc's obituary

the 2012 Phillies obituary.

Cody Ross on philles radar. I would love him and upton with brown in outfield.

Halladay came to Philadelphia as the best pitcher in baseball w/ the expectation of bringing the franchise another World Series championship. That it was an unreasonable burden to place on the arm of a single pitcher is beside the point. Unless & until that parade happens, Halladay's tenure will ultimately be viewed as nothing more than an interesting blip in the history of the franchise, like the '83 Phillies of Morgan & Perez.

On the whole I'd still rather have a team more in the mold of the '08 Phillies -- decent pitching, solid defense & capable of mashing the crap outta the ball -- than this whole "stockpiling Aces" thing. It was a concept practically destined for a disappointing end, & that's what we're increasingly liable to get.

Speaking of obituaries, here's one for the '13 Phillies:

"Listen to manager Charlie Manuel, and you can envision a team with Chase Utley at third base, Freddy Galvis at second base, a big-ticket free agent playing center field, and at least one quality free-agent addition to the bullpen."

Full Column: Phillies Outline A 2013 Plan

I can't think of a bigger waste of money this winter than adding "at least one quality free agent to the bullpen".

I'd be in favor of a Ross-Upton-Brown Outfield as well. As for the bullpen addition...Jonathan Broxton? Dare I mention Ryan Madson?

Speaking as someone who is grounded in reality, the actual expectations put on Halladay when we was brought in is that he would be the best pitcher in baseball, and he met those expectations in the first two years of his contract (and, if possible, was better than advertised). Anyone that thinks one pitcher could carry a team to a title is a moron.

Considering he's a HOF pitcher that pitched two of his best years here, in his prime, pitched a perfect game and a freaking playoff no-hitter, if he never put on a Philly uniform again his tenure would be seen as much more than a blip for fans with an attention span greater than a fruit fly.

What the geniuses who run the Phillies are apparently failing to notice is that moving Utley to 3B does not address the failure of the position to generate offense so much as it transfers that failure to 2B in the form of Freddy Galvis. Besides which, there's no guarantee whatsoever that (a) Utley is even remotely capable of playing the position, or (b) it will help his health in any way. This is a cheapshit move, & I hate it.

Speculation that BJ Rosenberg will start if Halladay can't make his next start. For those who were hoping that Doc wouldn't have pitched yesterday, there's your alternate.

But Rosenberg brings the gasoline.

The season was lost for good & all in Houston. Halladay, Rosenberg ... it's all academic now.

Kind of weird that I'm a bit sad that Jones isn't in the lineup today. His last game ever in Philadelhia...bit strange to say that.

The Beerleaguer standard of excellence as it applies to Howard,Utley,Rollins,Halliday,Hamels and Lee:
Hall of Fame level production all game, ...every game. Anything short of that you're not worth the money you're being paid.

Watching some of the Yankees/A's game on TBS, and was looking at A-Rod's numbers this year. Didn't realize, but A-Rod is going to get to 3,000 hits next year and 2,000 RBI, even if he has a down season. Only need 107 hits and 51 RBI.

When he does that, he'll join only one other man in baseball history to have 500+ HR, 3,000+ H and 2,000+ RBI...Hank Aaron.

I can't wait for Thurs. night. This year's "Fan Appreciation Day" should really be a hoot.

That is the 7th time Utley has been hit by Tim Hudson. No other pitcher has more than 3.

Don Baylor who was hit the most of any player... Was hit by knuckleballer Charlie Hough 7 times.

It always bugs me that one of our pitchers hasn't drilled Hudson at least once.

Fatalotti: As far as I'm concerned, when A-Rod does it, there will still only be one man in baseball history to have done that. Pretty sure I'm not alone with that.

Lance- are you saying the BL peanut gallery has higher standards than your average 8 year-old sports fan?

... dumb to bunt Pierre with a man on second and no outs ...

Scott: Completely agree.

I agree RR: Even though the Pierre bunt "worked," I kinda wish they hadn't given up the out -- there have been far too Phillies hits so far this series to sacrifice your best contact hitter. On a positive note, at least they're now one swing of the bat away from tying it up. Assuming, of course, that anyone even makes contact again...

Now that Doc's arm is ruined, let's run up Cliff's pitch count in a game he's losing!!

8 IP, 2 R surrendered. Loss imminent. This is the story of Cliff Lee's season.

Gelb: "Cliff Lee sets a major-league record with 15 straight starts of at least 6 IP and 1 BB or fewer."

14 posts in 8 innings. That has to be a record.

Conway: Might well be. The weather is beautiful here in the Philly area, so I'm sure some are occupied with other things. Some might be watching football, others have finally accepted that the season is over. I'm sure someone will break out the "frontrunner" talk, but the fact is, even fanatics have lives.

Conway, would have to be a "modern era" record, because, Beerleaguer, like all sports blogs, probably had a period during its early days where it just wasn't drawing much, regardless of the Phillies position in the standings.

Whatever the reason, this "chat" has been deader than Roy Halladay's arm, & the Phillies bats even deader still. Enjoy what remains of your weekend, everyone.

Missed the game, but only getting one run off of Hudson? Sounds like it was another exciting game for the hometown nine.

Number one priority this offseason is the same as last year. Turn over as many positions as u can. This is more than just a one or two position player change.

I realize it is a nice day. I don't follow football, so I don't have a life. I've accepted the fact that the season is over. I'm going out for a nice stress-free meal, and hopefully a winning Cash5 ticket.

ow many times have we seen this same story by the Phillies offense?An offensive explosion (16 runs vs. the Mets) is followed by a 5 game drought.

It was too nice outside to spend much time on this game, and still too nice to watch the Eagles lose in Arizona...

A beautiful day in Southern Maine at the beach with Scott and LA...no need to watch on such a day.

Conway: Hope you get a winner!! I'll keep watching until the final out of the final game. I'm a junkie. Not much I'm able to do about it. As far as the posts here, not much more to say that hasn't already been said. Not that that ever stops anyone.

From the game today:

Lee wasn't dominant today but he pitched well overall. Wasnt hitting thd inside fastball on RHB and his curveball was inconstienf. Got hurt by some defensive shortcomings in the 2nd inning including his own brutal error to load the bases with nobody out.

Vintage Hudson today. Groundball after groundball out working over the lineup early with his fastball/changeup then moving to his curveball later in the game.

Howard's effort today was questionable. Made almost no effort for a grounder and didn't run at all today initially on a weak grounder to the 1st. Not sure if he is really hurting or not.

Defensively the Phils were charged with 2 errors. Easily could have been 4. This team has notably slipped defensively.

I mentioned Broxton name last year i believe on this blog. No takers...This was the guy Amaro should of taken a chance on not Qualls...Anyhow Doc shouldnt be written off so quick. Shut the man down let him heal and work on his issues in the offseason. Doc will be back next year.

Of course I will always remember Doc's Perfecto and No-no but thinking back on game 5 of last year-what a warrior. The guy did almost everything possible to win the game on the mound for us. A blip? I agree with Iceman he was fantastic for two years. I give him a pass this year because it is obvious he's been hurt all year.

Halladay is the pitching equivalent of Utley. Plenty of people wrote Chase off, figuring he'd never play again, or if he did, he wouldn't be productive. I told a few people I know that if anyone could find a way to overcome his knee problems, it would be Utley. If anyone can find a way to overcome his arm/shoulder woes, it's Doc.

Fun fact: Today's winning pitcher is two months younger than yesterday's losing pitcher.

"Lee wasn't dominant today"

Wasn't dominant? By what standards? Lee had 11 strikeouts and zero base on balls, had three flyballs misplayed into hits, had a couple of infield bleeders that got through - including one that Howard just doesn't have the mobility to field, a couple of bloops, and basically gives up one hard hit ball - the homerun to center field by Ross. Yet - another loss.

Sheesh....you guyz continue to be really hard on that dude for whatever reason!

Lovely day outside ignoring the Phillies.

Okay, I'm ready to say "season over". It was fun deluding myself for a couple of weeks though...

I agree, Brooklyn.
For a short period, I had that ol' nervous, gripping feeling in the pit of my stomach that I enjoyed during the last five years.

Three balls misplayed? It was one (Brown) pop-up where he looked like he froze initially.

Guess I should have meant to say that Lee was dominant early on. He gave a 3-0 pitch to Uggla that if the win hadn't been blowing in it would have been a gland slam.

Certainly pitched more than well enough to win and got stronger as the game wore on.

Something doesn't fit, MG:

1) Lee wasn't dominant today
2) Lee was dominant early on
3) Lee got stronger as the game wore on

Something amiss.

Lee's first 3 IP were rather shaky, but his last 5 IP were excellent. I was pleased to see Cliff didn't allow the HR, or the lousy defense (inc. his own), to affect him going forward. Of course he still got a big, fat "L" for his efforts, so I guess it wouldn't have mattered what the hell he did or didn't do.

It was a great August and September when the Phils could have packed it. Hope the Phillies keep Frandsen and Pierre. The Phillies need to get younger and I don't think Brown is one of the answers. The Braves have remained competitive after their run by blending young players ( minsalary) with veterans. The Phillies are spending twice the amount! We need to develop another round of players in the system like Rollins, Hamels, and Ruiz. Sooner or later the Phillies have to face the fact they are an old team that are subject to ore injuries. Maybe rather than getting retread players for your bench you use kids who will make mistakes, but have the possibility of developing into major leaguers.

Seemingly having found the Fountain of Youth on a contending team, what's the chance that r00b signs Ichiro for 2013? I bet he's at least looking a little enticing to him...

Hugh: Your old hangout, the Railroad House, was voted 2nd best bar, and 2nd best burger, in the 2012 Berks Restaurant Poll.

Just as I said 2 months ago. They played really well the 2nd half to give us all hope but really just gave some other team their pretty good 1st round pick. Charlie took a page from Andy's coaching book.

BTW...I didn't say it before because I'm a homer and I always hold out hope but I'm now officially waiving the white flag.

What a crappy day in Philly sports

Glad it was the RR house, and no the peanut bar.

"not"

What's up with Mayberry in center field? According to Franzke and Andersen, he misjudged a couple of balls that should have been fairly easily caught today. Looks like they definitely have to find a center fielder for next year.

Mini Mart: Lots of great bars and restaurants here in Reading and Berks. You should spend next summer here trying them out.

Off day tomorrow, depressing game today , depressing catching up on BeerLeaguer in less than a full page.

CT- Speaking or Reading/Berks Co. , is Stokesay Castle still open as a restaurant?

Bubba: Yes. A local businessman bought it at auction for about $1MM, and spent another $3MM on renovations. He added a private club for cigar smokers, and is now planning to build an upscale hotel on the property.

Thanks

Fat - Lee wasn't dominant early but it was the defensive miscues that really put him in a jam in the 3rd.

Great bars in Reading/Berks? Not really. Simply comes down to the fact that Reading is dirt poor and the overall area doesn't have enough younger people (40 and under) with discretionary income to support a diverse restaurant scene.

Why Trader's Joe/Wegman's won't open a store in the Reading area & most higher-end restaurant chains avoid it too. Open down 422 past Pottstown, up in the ABE area, or down in Lancaster instead.

Reopened Stokestay isn't bad but the food is hit or miss (been there three since they reopened including one Christmas)

What is really disappointing is that almost of all the Latin/Mexican places in Reading generally stink. Not even really a good Puerto Rican restaurant despite Reading have a notable Puerto Rican presence since the early 70s.

Plaza Azteca is a Americanized version of Mexican food that is bland, generic, and not much better than any mediocre chain restaurant. Ditto Alebrije. Just give you big piles of food for a reasonable price which is a Berks County necessity unfortunately. Quantity over quality. Cuban place on Penn St actually makes a pretty good Cuban sandwich though.

Tomorrow's thread:
"Does Hazleton deserve an Applebee's?"

The very first comment on this thread is plainly indicative of just how stupid some people can be.

Agree with Scott's comments about Doc and Utley being the type guys who will find a way to survive if remotely possible.

Don't know how it will shake down, but I think Doc will re-evaluate his approach this off-season and come back as strong both mentally and physically as conceivably possible.

How strong will that be? No way to tell now. But I suspect he will view next year as probably his last, best chance for a WC ring. I wouldn't be close to writing him off.

I don't know if Halladay will ever be what he was again (transcendent HoF producer), but I have little doubt he will put up #1/#2 numbers. low 3-'s era 15+ wins.

Phillies are interested in Ross?

As long as he isn't the solution in CF, bring him on board.

MG: My post about Reading was directed to Mini Mart's post. I was trying to lure him to Reading for next season, but you ruined it.

Iceman: There is room for Ross AND a CF. Some combination of Brown, Mayberry, Pierre, Nix, Holtzy should be starting at 1 spot everyday, not 2.

Now that the season is (un)officially over, I want to thank all you BLers for another great season. What can you say, through all the rough patches, the Phils kept it interesting until the second week in September. Hard to complain about that -- I mean, we still do, but it's hard.

Thanks again, and I look forward to weighing all the pros and cons of potential off-season moves with all of you.

Personal side note: I am 0-21 on the season (both home and away games). I have one more shot on Fan Appreciation Day. It would be nice to end my personal season with a win

R. Billingsly: so this season is your fault?

Other than the W/L record (and honestly just the Wins portion of that, Lee has had a typical Cliff Lee year. Even his ERA+ has basically normalized:

2009: 131
2010: 136
2011: 160
2012: 126

2011 was a career year, the other three are typical Clifton.

I imagine JW is holed up in the Comcast building developing an elaborate funeral photoshop for the next thread.

Agree on the Reading bar scene. As someone who grew up there and moved to Philadelphia 2 years ago after college, there are no bars I look forward to going to in that area when I am home. Places are usually trying to be a "club" or just aren't good.

"Another Roob trade that didn't work out"

LOL

Watched all yesterday; just had nothing to add to the discussion.

It is like having a great relationship (back in the day, at least for me) come to an end when the other person wants to be “just friends”, after months of highs and lows. You finally come to accept it and even appreciate it, but for a little while the finality of it all knocks the wind out of your sails.

Starting tomorrow we can start to watch for fun, a look to 2013, and just because it is baseball.

Thanks to the Phils for a good season, and to the many players who played their hearts out. It didn’t end the way we wanted, but it was a good season just because it is the Phillies and it is baseball!

jbird: I blame myself completely for the failures of this season, yes.

It didn’t end the way we wanted, but it was a good season just because it is the Phillies and it is baseball!

Amen to that.

Hope for the 2013 will depend on RBill attending all the games next June and counting on a reversion to at least mediocrity.

NEPP: I'd still say Cliff is a bit off of his "norm", if only for the way in which he allowed himself to be hurt by the HR ball this season. Too many fastballs right down the pipe in obvious situations, & opposing hitters took advantage. A fine season overall, though. Shame the team couldn't score more runs for him, but it seems like at least one SP gets screwed in a like fashion every year.

Personal side note: I am 0-21 on the season (both home and away games) ...

I usually mark the back of my ticket stubs w/ a "W" or an "L", & the final score. Seeing as how you're intending to be at Thursday's game, too, I suppose I can just fill in that "L" ahead of time.

I think he had a rough start to the year but he has been dominant for much of the 2nd half.

The HRs are flukish for hte most part.

Here's to hoping that Doc can come back in '13 as some semblance of himself. Can't help but think he's hurt juuust a bit more than he's leading on. Offseason surgery in his future? The absolute transparent spring of accurate information that is the Phils' front office would certainly let the public know, right? /s

Since July 1st for Clifton:

15 GS, 2.40 ERA, 106 SO, 9 BB, 14 HR allowed


If anything, he's throwing too many strikes.

GTown: It's a near certainty. Sorry.

If anything, he's throwing too many strikes.

Sounds entirely counterintuitive, but in Lee's case I think this is entirely correct. At the very least he might want to stop grooving a first pitch meatball right in the center of the zone.

R.Bill: Oh well. At least I've still got a shot at winning a lifetime supply of MAB paint, or some such nonsense.

I'd think the jury is still out on Doc until we see what he's like with an offseason and a full spring training. He just went 6 straight years (1414.2 IP) without any significant injury. 484.1 IP for the Phils in the regular season over the first two years.

He will be 36 next year, so maybe he'll never be a sub 3.5 ERA pitcher ever again, but his peripherals aren't *that* much worse and he struggled with arm strength (due to his injured start) all year.

I think it's more likely he bounces back next year with an ERA closer to 3 than 4.

does anyone think his insane workout regimen might contribute to his struggles? It almost seems like he alludes to that with the whole [the body doesn't recover as quickly] quote.

RE: Cody Ross, he isn't an upgrade on Nix/Schierholtz/Mayberry/Pierre in an outfield corner, and he can't handle CF on a regular basis anymore. I don't see the point given what we have already.

RE: Utley at 3B, he's giving the team additional options. They've indicated that Frandsen's not getting the starting job, which I think is the right call. If Frandsen can't continue to hit .330 - which he won't - his glove at 3B will cancel out any offensive contributions.

They'll look at free agents before settling for Galvis at 2B, but they shouldn't overpay with Galvis, Cody Asche, and Cesar Hernandez all waiting in the wings.

Available options at each position:

3B:
Jeff Keppinger (probably will re-sign with Rays)
Maicer Izturis
Brandon Inge
Scott Rolen
Placido Polanco

2B:
Marco Scutaro (probably will re-sign with SF)
Freddy Sanchez
Kelly Johnson (may re-sign with Toronto)
Keppinger
Izturis
Yunel Escobar (not a FA, but likely to be traded by Toronto, especially if Johnson re-signs)

Stephen Drew would be at the top of either list if he's willing to switch from SS.

Other than Drew, I don't see anyone on that list that I'd offer more than 2 years at $4-5M per (if that). I'd much rather see them spend money in the outfield and the bullpen than waste it on the guys listed above.

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