« Game chat: Phillies teetering on brink of elimination |
| Breaking news: Howard breaks big toe, season = over »
Posted by J. Weitzel at 09:36 PM | Permalink
SEASON = OVER
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:39 PM
These late wild card teases used to be good seasons for us.
Then we got to the point where we'd disdain great regular seasons because we were all "WFCs or nothing".
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:42 PM
I feel like Lindblom has shown some ability and am hopeful he can improve upon it. On the other hand, he may just be one of those sometimes good-sometimes bad pitchers - - mediocre, in other words. Maybe my standards have simply been beaten down by the horrible BP performances we see this year. But I'm willing to give him more time (in 2013) before writing him off.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:44 PM
EF: As payroll & ticket prices skyrocket, so do expectations. It's not entirely unreasonable, esp. once the "overachiever" factor has been negated.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:45 PM
I feel as if "Kool Earl" has lied to us.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:46 PM
Mini Mart is listed at a plucky 175 pounds and currently hitting .176. What do you say, Beerleaguer, can he finish 2012 hitting his weight?
joe l |
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:47 PM
Well, that and when exactly would the season have "ended" in the old 1 WC system?
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:49 PM
Taking my Johnnie Blue to the Ben Franklin. Speak well of me.
Scotch Man |
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:49 PM
I think the answer to that is a week ago.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:51 PM
But I hardly knew ya, Scotch Man. Can't even write your epitaph.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:52 PM
Date of Final Game ('07-'12)
'07: NL East Champs (6 Oct. '07, NLDS Game 3)
'08: WFC (29 Oct. '08, World Series Game 5)
'09: NL Champs (4 Nov. '09, World Series Game 6)
'10: NL East Champs (NLCS Game 6, 23 Oct. '10)
'11: NL East Champs (NLDS Game 5, 7 Oct. '11)
'12: Mathematically Eliminated (28 Sept. '12, Regular Season Game 157*)
*Game 162 sched. for 3 Oct. '12
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:56 PM
I'm still amazed that Charlie pinch hit for Ruf, who might be able to hit the ROOGY, while leaving in Mayberry, who absolutely can't hit a ROOGY. Apparently, Charlie wanted to find out about that Nix kid because he's so important for next season.
Just because Howard hits lefties like Cliff Lee hits lefties doesn't mean Ruf can't hit a righty. Wouldn't it be nice to find out? And Nix would have been fine pinch hitting for Mayberry.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 09:57 PM
So, UC"s parting comment after the last home loss of the season is that we have to "try harder." Are you (s)hitting me? That's all he has to say about a failed season???
That's the kind of statement from this imbecile that drives me to drink. Actually, I'm enjoying a Newton's Folly hard cider at the moment, so it's not a bad destination. I digress.
If it's as simple as trying harder, no problem for next season. He sounds like a tired old high school coach who has way outlived his usefulness. I know it won't happen, but, please, RAJ, jettison the old hack and start the new era.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:01 PM
Not that they're that close anymore, but this whole second wild card only obscures the fact that the Phillies are 14 GB of Atlanta for what would have been playoff contention any other year.
Lots of work to do.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:02 PM
If Ryan Madson would pitch the 8th inning, I'd love him back. However, I suspect that he'll want to close.
With Stutes & Herndon (not right away but at some point mid-season) coming back, and with Bastardo, Aumont, Lindblom, Horst....Will RAJ go after a BP piece for the 8th inning, or will he take his chances with these guys?
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:05 PM
Charlie Manuel back.
Tom McCarthy back.
Michael Martinez back.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:06 PM
I'm all in on your criticism or UC for not letting Ruf bat in the 9th, ak. Reprehensible. What was there to lose by letting him hit in a clutch situation? Manuel is terrible both by the book and by his large gut. Either way, he's lost.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:07 PM
Born in 1982. Most disappointing season of my lifetime? Yeah, how couldn't it be?
Maybe 2003, when they got run off by the Marlins. But I don't think anything has been more bitter than October 2011-Now.
On to 2013. Pressure's on, Rube.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:07 PM
Please, please, please no, no and no, MR. If you could jettison only one of the three, who would it be?
For me, the greatest impact would be Manuel, of course.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:09 PM
Well, I can mute the tv...
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:10 PM
At least play for .500 or better.
After 102 wins, sub .500 is really a depressing idea.
Agree with aks , I want to see what Ruf can do. PH for him was by the book , but really short sighted & stupid. Let him bat, see what happens.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:10 PM
It was just a bad time to go by the book by pinch-hitting for Ruf. It was a great moment to shine the spotlight on the kid and see what he could produce with little pressure on him.
Just a silly percentages move by a manager that just doesn't get it.
This is one of myriad reasons I want to see UC gone. It's not going to happen, unfortunately, and we're going to have 2012 redux on 2013, I'm umhappy to predict.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:15 PM
Now we can get on with 2013. Glad Phil's put st chase 3rd base crAp aside.
Still think we should have got Chris Johnson on the cheap. Looking at list I would like to see league for the 8th. Upton in center and youk or Steven drew at third base. Wright out of idea and chase h. If Cody lights it up at fall ball then have to switch third plans. Ruf really looking like he has idea. Small sample size, but not bad. Wonder if rube package Valle, Julio r or Colvin and another PC for major ready. Just went with that trade off top. Or something to that order.
The Hook |
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:19 PM
Just remember this next year. It took til September 28th for the Phillies to be eliminated, in a season where they sucked more often than not. If nothing else did we at least learn that the season isn't over when they're 20-20 in May? Probably not but I can hope.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:26 PM
mainerob - Charlie said more than just that a vague "We need to get better." Which is true. But he had some specifics of how to improve.
From John Finger at csnphilly.com:
Needless to say, Manuel already has a laundry list of things that need to be addressed before next season. Recently he’s discussed the need for more power at third base or the corner outfield positions. With Shane Victorino and Hunter Pence moved from the opening day roster, Manuel knows he’s going to need some help in the outfield.
Maybe Dom Brown can hold down one of the spots? Maybe Darin Ruf will be ready after an offseason honing his swing in winter ball.
Most of all, Manuel wants the Phillies to improve their defense before the beginning of next season. If there was one facet of the game that bothered Manuel the most this season, it was the shoddy play in the field. Certainly the injuries and the fact that so many players were thrust into roles they may not have been ready for led to some of the problems. Be that as it may, Manuel says the Phillies have to catch the call better.
“We have to get better,” Manuel said. “You guys have heard me say this from the time I got here and if the guys we have here can do it, that’s fine. If not, we’re going to get a better offense and we’re definitely going to have to catch the ball better than we did this year. This is the worst we played defense. Mental mistakes, we had a lot of them and we had more errors this year than we had in the last five or six years.”
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:33 PM
Approx. 135 days until pitchers and catchers report.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:36 PM
Shred every go88damm 8- and 9-figure contract (yes, that Cole Hamels) and pray. Hard. That this treasonous act, and some extremely shrewd scouting and signing of a gaggle of young players does not keep us doomed to 10+ years of pointless Phillies baseball.
At some point, the (extremely) limited partnership has to hold that POS Amaro accountable for single-handedly obliterating a WS championship team. All the while, stripping the farm of talent. For whom?
• Roy Halladay
• Cliff Lee (Twice. TWICE. THIS IS INSANE)
• Roy effin' Oswalt. Yes. That Roy Effin' Oswalt.
• Hunter Effin' Pence. Yes. Hunter Effin' Pence.
How RAJ hold onto his job -- WTF; his condoning the long-term play of Martinez is a dischargeable offense on its own merits -- is one of the greatest mysteries of this God-given universe.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:37 PM
Somebody else may have hypothesized this already in the last thread, but I am calling bullish*t that the Phillies are already ending to the Utley at 3B experiment before it starts.
My reasoning is that who, exactly, is going to play 3B? The FA crop is useless (Youk is the "best," right?) and what are the realistic trade options? They should have overpaid for Headley a year or two ago, now you'd have to empty out the pitching in your farm system for him.
So if all the options at 3B suck or are not feasible, you tell everybody Utley is going to play 2B... meaning that hopefully, you can go under the radar to get an above average 2B while not driving the market up... and move Utley to third.
My reasoning might be off, but I don't think this is the last we've heard of this.. and I have nothing better to think about baseball-wise since this will be the first meaningless October since 2007. Never take the post season berths for granted....
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:38 PM
Thanks for the full assessment from Manuel, GBrettFan. That's being fair to him. I do tend to minimize his baseball IQ and you're right to point out that there's more to him than than meets the eye.
I just get frustrated with his in-game management. The Ruf snub tonight got to me and to others, as well: aksmith for one.
I also stand by my contention that the Sandberg era should start next year; otherwise, we may lose a fertile baseball mind and great manager in the making.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:46 PM
mainerob - Charlie has his strenghts and weaknesses, and we certainly saw the weakness with that Ruf move tonight. But I truly have no idea if Sandberg is a good or great baseball mind. I'd certainly like to see him coach in the majors next season then be in position if Charlie goes. But it's hard to tell who would be a good manager from the minors since most of us don't see much minor league ball (although there is a lot on TV these days). I think the best recommendation for a minor league manager isn't strategy, but how well they develop players. The way that fundamentals aren't really stressed anymore, it's more important than ever to teach at the major league level.
Anyone know if Sandberg is a good teacher?
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:52 PM
Who can we at BL adopt for the post season?
My vote is Baltimore and Jim Thome.
Assuming they get invited to the party.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:53 PM
Turned out I was right after all.Ruf got the shaft.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:56 PM
Bubba: I'm for Baltimore first, then Texas. The NL candidates are stomach-churning.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:57 PM
Dd the Victorino trade yield the long awaited T-Mac replacement disguised as the player to be named later?
The Dodgers sent Minor League infielder Stefan Jarrin to the Phillies as the player to be named to complete the July 31 acquisition of veteran outfielder Shane Victorino, the club announced Friday.
Jarrin, the son of broadcaster Jorge Jarrin and grandson of Hall of Fame broadcaster Jaime Jarrin, hit .209 with three homers and nine RBIs in 26 games for the rookie-level Arizona Dodgers.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 10:59 PM
Not the same team as before. Do they have the desire to win sure. Do they have the same intensity that special something that made them special anymore probably not. Uncle C said these guys dont have the same level of energy as Harper and Bryce. Well Duh you have a 19 yo and a 21 yo compared to the old men on the Phillies roster. Does anyone here over 30 have the same intensity/energy they did when they where 19? Basing all future success on past performances in a risky proposition. The core of this team arent the same players they where once. Both from a physical and mental standpoint. The blossoming of Werth and Shane along with that core made this team special. They still have some fight left in them but not nearly the same as previous years.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 11:16 PM
From what I have read about Sandberg, ak, he is an excellent teacher and has the uncanny ability to teach what he practiced as one of the best players ever at his position in the majors.
I was following the Phillies as avidly as ever during his prime with the Cubs and if Ernie Banks was "Mr. Baseball" in his prime as SS for them, Ryne Sandberg was very close behind.
I just would hate for the Phillies to lose out once again by letting him go to another team to manage instead of being the anointed successor to Manuel.
You do bring up a good point, however: I would be fine with Ryno joining the big club in a coaching capacity in 2013 with the understanding that he was the manager in waiting.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 11:16 PM
Since we are now (officially) on to next year... I will just some up the offseason moves now so I can just skip to April. :)
Mayberry is a tough guy to figure. He should remain as a platoon OF who can bat against lefties, be a power threat, is a quality defensive replacement at all three spots, and is a decent runner. A Mayberry/Schierholtz RF is not even league average. And Brown does not appear to be the superstar the Phillies lineup desperately needs.
I suppose Phillies try to get the best hitter they can to play LF (Berkman, Hunter, Scott?). Figure out who to keep from Schierholtz, Nix and Pierre. Then try to sign Victorino on the cheap and hope he can produce. Stick Brown in RF with Mayberry and a lefty on the bench.
For 3B, best option I can see is Eric Chavez (or Youkilis). Not sure if AL teams have better chances at both aging guys who have significant risk. Chavez should be much cheaper and used to be a great fielder.
Give Ruiz some time at 3B in preseason, give Frandsen the utility INF role. Maybe sign some old INF as well, like Freddy Sanchez, Ryan Theriot, or Macier Izturis.
Give Kratz the backup C job with Valle the callup if needed (and not traded). Fill in the last spot with some hitter.
Sign Madson to be the setup guy again. Not sure what else to try for the bullpen. Bunch of possibly good young guys but what if they all fail again and Madson is not ready? Signing any other high profile reliever will likely be a disaster.
Starting pitching I suppose just stays the course. Expect Worley and Kendrick as 4 and 5 with Cloyd and Pettibone in LHV.
Rollins, Utley, Ruiz, Howard, Berkman?, Victorino, Brown, Chavez.
Kratz, Mayberry, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Theriot (or a better bench hitter).
Hamels, Lee, Halladay, Worley, Kendrick.
Papelpon, Madson, Bastardo, Aumont, DeFratus, Pick-a-Lefty (Horst), Pick-a-Longman (Rosenberg).
C Valle, 1B Overbeck, 2B Hernandez, SS Galvis, 3B Kouzmanoff, LF Ruf, CF Gillies, RF Castro.
SP: Cloyd, Pettibone, Martin, May, VET (Jamie Moyer)
Pen: Whoever's left
Or Phillies could trade Cliff Lee for Olt, Martin, Perez, and Ogando.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM
@aksmith I'm puzzled how you or anyone on here can still start a post with "I'm still amazed that Charlie..." (insert any one of a number of dumb things he does on a regular basis).
I know most people on here probably disagree because you don't think he will (or should) do it, but I think RAJ drops the hammer on Chollie in the off-season. If you are RAJ and know deep down you have f&cked up and your job is probably on the line, do you hitch your wagon to Chollie? I don't.
Friday, September 28, 2012 at 11:31 PM
They've been worse every year Michael Martinez has been on the team. Coincidence? You be the judge.
Sil Campusano |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:02 AM
Sil- You have to give the devil his due.
MM did cover some ground in CF on a couple of deep fly balls , and did hustle out a hit on the Wiggy-dumb out at 3B play.
Not to say I want to see him back in '13, but at least he showed some hustle to cover for his lack of skills.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:16 AM
I was being facetious. But now that you mention it, hustle or not, the guy doesn't belong in the major leagues.
Sil Campusano |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:23 AM
I rather have Orr up then Martinez. At this juncture I imagine Rube will have no choice but to let him go. Once the season is concluded.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:25 AM
Pithy thread header. I'll be pithy, too. The Phillies sucked this entire season.
Lake Fred |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:26 AM
Everybody hurts . . . sometimes.
Bake McBride was Here |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:37 AM
I'm thinking Goodfellas.
He gone, and we couldn't do nothing about it.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 01:09 AM
I see nothing wrong with Lee's statement. What was he suppose to say? Every word is scrutinized especially with a player of his caliber. Yes its a simplistic safe answer. This is what they do. Did you want him to say the offense take a paid vacation day every time i pitch?
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 02:29 AM
Luis, right on, man.
Not Cliff Lee |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 03:48 AM
I have never seen such total lack of support for a single pitcher. I think it was Franzke who said last night that in the 205 innings that Lee has pitched the Phillies have scored only 74 runs! On ESPN I read this morning that Lee has the best pitching stats in all of baseball since the ASB, including a 2.34 era. I wouldn't be surprised if dude even garners a couple of votes in the Cy Young race.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 08:08 AM
Cholly and Rube would be looking a whole lot better if Doc had pitched the way we're accustomed to seeing him. There's a good argument to be made that the Phils would be in the playoffs if he had pitched as he normally does. And, with the way the team in general has played since the ASB, we would have a legitimate shot at another WFC. I know we put Charlie and Rube under a microscope sometimes, but they would be looking a whole lot better if Halladay hadn't had such an awful season (for him).
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 08:48 AM
For once, Beerleaguer publishes the season obituary on a Friday instead of a Monday.
Hugh Mulcahy |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 09:24 AM
1986: Today in wrong brother history, Greg Maddux closes out an abbreviated rookie campaign with his second win, scattering 10 hits over 7.2 innings to beat brother Mike and the Phillies, 8-3.
Sandberg and Moreland with first inning RBIs staked G. Maddux to a 2-0 lead he would not relinquish.*
*Glennbo Wilson with the rare 9-3 assist to rob Moreland of a hit.
Hugh Mulcahy |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 09:29 AM
See cardsfanboy comment [#6] at baseballthinkfactory thread about pitchers who pitched 190+ innings and 15 or less decisions: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/phillies_mathematically_eliminated_from_playoff_contention/
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 09:38 AM
"What do you say, Beerleaguer, can he finish 2012 hitting his weight?"
Wow, that's a tough bar to clear. You know, there's more than one way to win that bet, buddy! My plan: eat a couple of burritos that have been sitting on the counter for 2-3 days. Then, spend the next couple of days on the john. That should get my weight well below my average. Bet won!
Mini Mart |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 10:21 AM
I think it was Franzke who said last night that in the 205 innings that Lee has pitched the Phillies have scored only 74 runs!
And Lee has only surrendered 71 ER in those 205 IP. It's ridiculous.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM
That is ridiculous. Lee had a string of struggles, but outside of that, he has gotten next to nothing from the offense. Someone pointed out that he's frequently up against the other team's ace, so it hasn't been easy...but still.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 11:32 AM
Very frustrating to waste those good outings by Lee, too, in my opinion. Especially to see the 8th inning guys come in and let the other team score. I really hope RAJ is able to address the need for offense while still keeping pitching a strength - - and of course, that Doc comes back strong next year.
I agree that had Doc been able to pitch up to his own standards this year, we'd likely been in the postseason. At one point recently, I said that if we did not make the postseason, we could look to Doc's troubles, and that if we did, KK would deserve a fair share of credit.
I'm curious to see how Doc does today after having such a wonderful, spasm-free bullpen session.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 11:36 AM
dry leaves from promise
too many small deaths have passed
we await a spring
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:01 PM
1st and 3rd, no Outs
but no runners cross the plate
Charlie, Hitting Guru? Please.
So many ifs. If ...
... Doc had been Doc.
... the 8th inning hadn't been an unmitigated disaster.
... Lee got any run support.
... the Phillies don't lose 3 of 4 in f*cking HOUSTON.
... the team's defense isn't almost universally abysmal.
... any one of Mayberry (April & June), Rollins (April, May & July) or Vic (April) hadn't crapped the bed until Howard & Utley got back on their feet.
There are probably a hundred more, but you all get the point. This team simply never got its sh*t together.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:23 PM
And yes, that "haiku" is a 5-7-7. It's a 2012 Phillies haiku, which is to say, a prime example of failure to execute.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:25 PM
*Interesting stat- Doc has a 3.00 ERA with Kratz in 7 games, a 2.61 ERA with Schneider in 2 games, and a horrific 5.32 ERA in 16 games with Chooch.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:52 PM
Phillies shortstop Jimmy Rollins is just two runs shy of his sixth career 100-run season after accomplishing the feat in 2004-07 and '09. (from phillies.com)
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 12:58 PM
Defensively the team can't improve that much. Not with the core cast of characters back in the infield. Utley's lost range & his arm is below average now. Ditto JRoll. Both are probably still above average at their positions but aren't the defensive stalwarts they were 2-3 years ago. Howard's will likely be below average at 1B. Just hopefully not horrendous at 1B as he has been this year.
Brown's a below average OF. Mayberry's okay in a corner OF spot but below average in CF. Frandsen's a below average 3B because of his arm
Realistically, the Phils might improve in CF next year defensively depending upon who they sign but this isn't going to be a strong defensive ballclub next year.
Need to get some more offensive (largely come from OF FA signigns), nail a couple of secondary signings for the bench and bullpen (not a strong suit of Amaro's tenure here), and most of have good providence on the injury front (not optimistic on Halladay and well see with the rest).
Phils have the pieces to contend next year but will need a solid offseason by Amaro and good luck on the health front. Actually more optimistic about the offseason than I am the injury front. This is an old team for a lot of guys with serious health-related questions going into next year & a training/medical staff that has had very suspect performance the past 2 years.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 01:10 PM
PhxPhilly, Ruiz has played a grand total of two innings at third over the course of his entire professional baseball career (that includes his time in the minors), and you want that to eventually become his new permanent position? Uhhh, y'okay...
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 01:28 PM
"I'm still amazed that Charlie pinch hit for Ruf, who might be able to hit the ROOGY, while leaving in Mayberry, who absolutely can't hit a ROOGY. Apparently, Charlie wanted to find out about that Nix kid because he's so important for next season.'
Only in Cholly's World, Ruf wasn't ready...
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 02:42 PM
Nix is now just 4-23 (.174) this year as a PH with 3 RBIs with 1 BB and 11 Ks.
Now just 29-157 (.185) in his career as a PH with just 2 HRs and 9 XBHs with a staggering 51 Ks and 18 BBs
Nix is just a lousy PH option and this is the role they have for him in mind next year he is miscast.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 02:54 PM
I'm just giddy that there was a Sloppy Thurston reference. He and Cliffie shall be forever linked.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:25 PM
And here's the thing about Ruf being pinch-hit for.... If Cholly leaves him in ...and he fails....then everyone's criticizing him for leaving the young rookie in in a situation that he wasn't ready for.
Chuck A. |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:32 PM
Chuck: NOT ME!
Conway Twitty |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:39 PM
RT @ToddZolecki: Ryan Howard broke a toe when he dropped that led pipe he swings in the on deck circle on his foot. Manuel said he won't play again this year
Ruf should be the first baseman from here on out. Minus any unpleasent cameos from Ty Wigginton.
At this point I can't help but laugh.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:41 PM
RT @ToddZolecki: Tonight's linuep @ FLA: Rollins SS, Pierre LF, Utley 2B, Ruiz C, Brown RF, Ruf 1B, Schierholtz CF, Orr 3B, Halladay P.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:42 PM
Zolecki: "Ryan Howard broke a toe when he dropped that lead pipe he swings in the on deck circle on his foot. Manuel said he won't play again this year."
Gelb: "Howard broke his toe when he dropped a lead pipe he uses in on-deck circle. Won't affect his winter program."
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:42 PM
Conway - Just sayin'. You know how Philly fans can be....
Chuck A. |
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:55 PM
Was there any indication as to when the toe-pipe incident took place? Might the Big Piece have been playing with a broken toe just until the team was out of contention? Timing seems too coincidental.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 04:56 PM
It was the Big Piece with the lead pipe in the On-Deck Circle.
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 05:12 PM
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