Game chat: Year of the 'tweener' continues for Phillies

After 44 starts and 184 plate appearances, third baseman Kevin Frandsen is hitting .331/.383/.438 and the Phillies are 27-21 since handing him the hot corner. That's not to say he's the longterm solution, because the Phils have suggested he isn't. But that's not bad production, and .254/.309/.522 and 9 home runs is nothing to sneeze at from tonight's backstop Erik Kratz. The truth of the matter is that in the post-steroid era, the line between AAA journeymen and fringe major leaguer has been dramatically blurred and the Phils are discovering there's value to be had in trusting pre-arb tweeners. Just ask Laynce Nix and Ty Wigginton, or injured veterans Brian Schneider and Placido Polanco, or that total loser Chad Qualls. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[clout]

Iceman: Murphy had a pretty good column today which essentially boiled dow to this: The Phillies will have to choose between overpaying for an expensive, not very good free agent (i.e. Upton) or filling the holes in-house with cheap, young players you know can't play at the level a contender needs (i.e. Brown/Mayberry).

The Cardinals went the latter route a couple years ago with some mediocre prospects named Freese, Jay and Craig and wound up striking gold as all 3 outperformed their scouting reports. The Phils could try it next year with Ruf, Mayberry and Brown and wind up striking gold or striking out.

[clout]

GBF: I saw both in their primes. Both were great fielders, but Schmidt was clearly better. Brett was a better hitter, but, obviously, didn't remotely have Schmitty's power. Both were slam dunk Hall of Famers and fun to watch.

[clout]

BAP: Praising players who are clearly superior doesn't count. Praising (or damning) players for no rational reason is why you draw attention.

[GBrettFan]

Clout - I never saw Schmidt play (other than on TV in the '80 WS), but Brett was quite exciting to watch.

[Meyer]

Mimicking scouts that forgot Ruf remains a mystery to my eye.

[Bubba]

Why do they insist on interrupting Sarge's monologue on a Nats coach who got a manager's job; and T-Mac and Murph's riveting exchange on kids jumping up and down to get on camera with cut aways to baseball.
You're not a true fan if you want to watch the game during the really important stuff like that.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

GBrettfan - I was young but, I saw Brett frequently on TV on Saturdays (game of the week or TWIB). Loved watching him play - pure hitter with a great eye, extra base machine, dirtball, savvy player. Schmidt was more valuable offensively by virtue of his tremendous power and comparable strike zone judgment; he was easily among the best fielding 3B of all time. Struck out alot which fed a vocal faction of detractors. So, I gotta say Schmidt was definitely better than no doubt hall of famer George Brett but, I'm probably in the majority when I say Brett was an easier player to like. Oh, and as usual, the Phils had the wrong brother.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Heard the A's set an AL record for Ks against (1333+) and was wondering if the Pirates were closing in on one. Mild surpise, the Astros are worse (1314-1288). Pirates got K'd 13X by Dickey tonight and probably more by the bullpen. I think at least 6 pitchers have set personal highs in Ks against the Bucs this year.Phils have the fewest in teh NL at 1035. Not the most telling statistic since KC is best at 924, and Minnesota and Cleveland also have fewer Ks (and pitchers hitting).

[MG]

Say it has been more 'Year of the Pig' for the Phils. Here is a list of Iron Pigs (16) who have played for the Phils this year:

Fontenot
Frandsen
Pridie
Luna
Brown
Mini-Mart
Kratz
Orr
Cloyd
Rosenberg
Aumont
Valdes
Diekman
Savery
Schwimer
B. Sanches

Savery & Orr were on the Opening Day roster but still had most of their PT with the Iron Pigs this year.

[GTown_Dave]

So, that sucked. Ruf can hit, though. The smallest of sample sizes, blah blah blah. Still, it appears his fundamentals are solid. I'd like to see him get a legit shot at making the club in '13.

Any possible remaining lingering doubts about Cloyd have been addressed. If he is to have a baseball future it will be in the bullpen.

Morse's 2nd HR was insane. My first thought as the ball left the bat was that it would land in the Alley. Opposite field, too. Just ... wow.

Ballpark was fairly full, but mostly dead. Even the fans appeared to be there simply to play out the string. Some decent booing for Werth, who absolutely encourages it, but not much emotion either way otherwise.

Naturally, Rollins popped up in the INF to end the game. If only it had been the last out of the season.

Oh well. You simply can't expect too much from a team w/ the highest payroll in the league in a season w/ expanded playoffs.

[MG]

Maybe Gio Gonzalez would look sweet in a Phils' uniform right now. You always hear about Ferguson Jenkins who won 282 games in his MLB career after the Phils' traded him. Won 2 in a Phils' uniform

Floyd is now 61-61 since the Phils traded him to the White Sox. Gonzalez is now 59-40. That's 120 wins already for the 1 (yes 1) win the Phils got from F. Garcia. Considering Gonzalez is only 27 and Floyd is only 29 there is a good chance combined they get close to that 282 games.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

The San Diego broadcast has just shown a full minute of their bald announcer non-plussed by a little monkey sitting on his shoulder, resting his hand on his headset and making faces at teh camera. Phils need to copy this.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

The monkey just read teh mlb.tv promo with the bald guy translating.

[GTown_Dave]

Hugh: The Phillies already have TMac. An obnoxious, chattering monkey would be redundant.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

GTown, acknowledged. Also, while hte monkey is cute, it does not speak English, though it is enthusiastic.

[MG]

Speaking of announcers:

I think TMac's deal is up this offseason that he signed in Nov. 2007 (5-year deal). Imagine he signs another long deal this offseason that cements his as the voice of the Phils' on TV. Kind of resigned to the fact that he will be the Phils' announcer for the forseeable future.

What would be interesting to see is the Phils' TV ratings this year on Comcast. Last year they averaged 9.7 which lead MLB baseball and they had increased 9 consecutive years. Guaranteed they slipped a bit especially in the 2nd half. Haven't been able to find a single article on them but curious to see what they were.

I would venture they dropped somewhere around 8-8.5 given how poorly the team performed earlier this year & they whole they dug by the ASB.

[MG]

Phils TV deal is up at the end of 2015 and they are only getting $25M right now in local fees from TV.

I don't anticipate the Phils have any dropoff in payroll this offseason given several issues but it will be interesting next offseason especially if they have another year without a playoff appearance & the window is pretty much shut on his current core.

[Luis]

Nothing much to say. The Phils and Rube based the future on the past. I think Kratz is a ok backup but has come back down to Earth. I anticipate more of the same unless Howard, Utley and Rollins at least bear a reasonably resemblance to there former selves.

[can_of_corn]

My musings about the number of AAA (and AA) players on who have seen time—and had some success--with the Phils this year: Is it: (a) a testament to the excellence of minor league coaching, (b) an indictment of major league managing/coaching, OR (c) simply a random thing based on injuries/vacancies?

[jbird]

I think Ruf is going to have a hard time getting a shot next spring no matter how he does to close out the year because one of the few strengths of this year's FA class is outfield and that matches a team need for an outfield bat. I can't see a team with a $175m payroll going into next season with a still unproven Brown & Ruf manning both corners, especially if a clear 3b upgrade can't be traded for or signed. I think 2 FA outfielders (1 a CF) are signed by the team and Brown & Ruf duke it out for the other corner with the loser traded (Brown) or heading back to AAA (Ruf). Gillies ends up the starting outfielder of the future in AA/AAA. Mayberry and Nix will be the 4th and 5th outfielders with the big club.

[limoguy]

So, do they get an OF through free agency that costs less and/or plays better than Pence?

[lorecore]

Is the 2012 Phillies list of minor league call ups any different than all the other MLB clubs, specifically the ones who were sub .500 for the majority of the year?

I doubt it. It just seems odd to us because this team hasn't been under .500 so often during a season since 2002.

And they got rid of 4 players who had roles on the team - qualls blanton vic pence - who were all replaced internally.

[Sophist]

"I think TMac's deal is up this offseason that he signed in Nov. 2007 (5-year deal). Imagine he signs another long deal this offseason that cements his as the voice of the Phils' on TV. Kind of resigned to the fact that he will be the Phils' announcer for the forseeable future."

If this were going to happen, wouldn't it have happened already? Please say yes.

[jbird]

Limoguy: I liked Pence, so I don't know. Since I'm assuming one FA will be a CF, his salary/performance is moot because Pence wasn't going to be the starting CF. So for a corner outfielder, Nick Swisher is slightly less good (and has a more punchable face) but will come at a lower AAV (but longer deal) and Hamilton will obviously be more expensive but will probably be a better player. . .or maybe I'm wrong and the team will bring Juan Pierre back again. . .

[lorecore]

Mayberry's ability to play CF keeps him on this team next year. I am almost positive thats the only part of his game that keeps him on the 2013 roster. Corner OF defense and ability to hit for power vs LHP(with awful OBP) are not hard to find at all.

They are going to have 1 lame duck position next year, its going to be either 3B or a corner OF in my mind. I don't think they can fill CF and both of those spots because of their available resources and limited options.

[limoguy]

Jbird: Thanks. The Pence deal did not seem sensible to me at the time and looks even less so now.

[lorecore]

MG: solid tbag knowledge, signed 11/07 for 5 years. I can't find any info on talk of extension/renewal. Please god let this be the end.

Thinking tbag will get fired is setting me up for about 10000x more disappointment than hoping the Phils would make the playoffs this year.

[Sophist]

It does seem interesting that there hasn't been any news about TMac at all. Although maybe if they were planning on replacing him there'd be some discussion of how that would happen.

[Bob]

Well was that J Roll pop up not a fitting end to the home schedule?

I think we need to step back and take a breath. Extremely disappointing season. But this team has money to spend and hopefully will make the right decisions. Rube/Charlie get a pass from me this season. 2013 needs to be productive.

My guess, we land a bullpen piece, a 3rd to platoon with Frandsen Victornio comes back on the "cheap" and Ruf gets a legit opportunity to be the LF next season. Ryno is this team's bench coach also in what might be Charlie's final season.

[MR]

That team finishes in third, too, Bob. Or 4th.

[jbird]

Bob: that's a lineup worse than what we had this year. You'd have to be banking on Howard & Utley returning to their prime to be competitive.

[Bob]

@ MR,

The bench will also be retooled and if the health is better, this team is better than .500. No matter what they do, there isnt a guarantee they will overtake the Nationals.

They will be alot better next season, just with a healthy Halladay, Lee having better luck next season, a healthy Worley and a Kendrick that might be able to carry flashes into 2013.

[GBrettFan]

If only Ruf could play 3B, our problems there would be solved.

I'm curious to see how he does going forward.

[Bob]

@ J Bird

I agree it's not ideal, but what outfielder is available at the right price to be that impact guy? I dont think Howard and Utley have to be 2006-2009 versions. Howard is still an RBI machine. While Utley's power has decreased, he's still a solid bat.

They will be competive based off an improved bullpen and better health/luck in the rotation. I dont think the .594 ball since the All Star Break is all fools gold. Some of it might be, but with a better bench, healthier rotation this team is better than .500.

I also dont think the Nats are a lock to be 95-100 win good again.

[jbird]

I think this is an acceptable lineup:

Rollins
Upton
Utley
Howard
Swisher
Brown/Ruf
Chooch
Fransden/Galvis

Upton and Swisher aren't guys I love, but they are available and probably more realistic than the alternatives like Hamilton, who is the only guy out there that really transforms a lineup.

[Bob]

I could live with that lineup also but sounds like alot of money will have to be invested into 2 FA outfielders in that scenario

[MR]

Bob:
The odds that Halladay, Kendrick and Worley and "overall health" will be better is no higher than it being worse. Ruiz probably won't hit .320 and may not stay healthy. Hell, Halladay could retire at the All Star Break. Someone said, "Hope is not a strategy."

[lorecore]

If Gio and Zimmerman are legit 140 ERA+ guys, then we are in f'n trouble. I know they are very good, but that seems a bit lofty.

Adam laRoche blows and is a comlpete fluke, and I really have a hard time believing Desmond is the best all around SS in baseball going forward, but thats what 2012 says.

Nats will be solid team for years to come, but they had a ton of help this year that I do not think will come again. They have a ton of pieces and will be in the 90 win category more often than not - but they aren't the juggernaut they project to be from their 2012 campaign I don't think. Or at least hope.

[jbird]

Bob: They had almost $20m tied up with Victorino & Pence to start this year. Pence was always going to get a raise in arb. and Victornio was going to have to be re-signed or replaced at what was going to be more than the $9m he got for 2012 because there were no internal CF options because of Gillies injury issues. Like I said, I can see the team going with either Brown or Ruf. Just can't see the team banking on both considering the year the team just had.

[lorecore]

and my above post already conceded that Strasburg and Harper are studs, Zim is a top 3B, etc. Just pointing out that spots that I think will come down.

[Bob]

@ MR

I understand your point.

But I dont think blowing up your operation at every failure is a way to operate either. The Giants won the WS in 2010, missed in 2011 and are right back in contenton here in 2012.

There will be change to the roster from some outside this team, so it's now like we are bringing everyone back for 2013. I just dont feel it needs to be an extreme makeover as a whole

[jbird]

Only way I can see Ruf & Brown going into the season is if the team does a tear down and re-build. Don't think the team gives up on Brown unless Ruf tears the cover off the ball and/or the team can put Brown in a deal for a legit 3b.

[DH Phils]

Batting average fans won't be happy, but I'm a Swisher fan.

As for Upton, I'd be OK with him, but I think I prefer Angel Pagan.

If I were in charge, I think I'd go with something like this:

Rollins
Utley
Swisher
Howard
Ruiz
Pagan
Brown
Frandsen/Galvis

Hamels
Lee
Halladay
Worley
Kendrick

Papelbon
RH FA set-up
Bastardo
Horst
Aumont
Lindblom
Cloyd

Mayberry
Nix
Schierholtz
Galvis
Kratz

[jbird]

lorecore: I expect Rendon to be up by late next season for the Nats too, if he can ever conquer the injury bug. He should be a solid bat at 3rd and a great one at 2nd.

[Bob]

From the other Bob

Bob,

I agree the record in the second half isn't fool's gold. I do believe the Phils got hit with kind of a perfect storm this year, but the Braves aren't going away and the Nats (despite their pace this year) are young and probably going to get better. Think a maturing Harper for a full season and an unleashed Strasberg.

To be competitive, I do think they'll have to spend some pretty serious dollars for upgrades beyond Vic on the cheap, a 3B guy who is only capable of playing on a platoon basis, and a bullpen piece.

[MG]

Sophist - TMac is under agreement through Nov. Likely they are just waiting for the offseason to finish to sign him to an extension. I would be stunned if they went in a different direction. Announcers don't cause the casual fan to watch. Winning does.

As much criticism as TMac gets, he is a better announcer when he does college & basketball and part of it is the broadcast design where they try to cram so much other stuff into the broadcast.

One guy I would like to see them move is Sarge. Not a bad guy but still yammers on & on way too much especially about non-baseball stuff. That works on radio. Not as much on TV.

Other thing is glaring obvious is the almost complete lack of prep work that Sarge puts into a broadcast. Almost NEVER tells you something you didn't know or that was interesting about the opposing team. Just shows up, talks a lot for 3 innings, and leaves.

If they are going to replace a broadcaster, I wish it was Sarge but the Phils seem pretty content with their current broadcasting schedule on TV/radio.

[lorecore]

DH, ur list in $$:

$11M
$15M
$15M **
$25M
$5M
$8M **
$.5M
$1M

$25M
$25M
$20M
$.5M
$4.5M

$12M
$6M **
$1M
.5M
.5M
.5M
.5M

.5M
1.5M
1.5M
.5M

= $180.5M, not counting polly buyout and a bunch of 40man roster stuff. Obviously using rough estimates with FA's.

[DH Phils]

lorecore: Yeah, that seems a bit high, and $8M may be conservative with Pagan too.

I would go cheaper with the set-up man (say, $3M) and I guess I'd have to dump either Schierholtz or Nix on somebody, which brings me down to $176M or so, compared to the $172M this year. I think that is reasonable, assuming Pagan doesn't cost too much.

[jbird]

In my dream (semi-realistic) off-season the Phillies pony up for Hamilton (who goes on to be NL MVP 4 straight years before retiring to become a missionary in the Phillipines with Tim Tebow), sign Vic on the cheap (and he recaptures his former glory), Ruf proves to be a poorman's Howard who can play left, and Brown is traded for Chase Headley who goes on to putup his non-petco OPS of .832 over the life of his contract extension.

Rollins
Utley
Hamilton
Howard
Headley
Victorino
Ruf
Chooch
Pitcher

And they all lived happily ever after.

[lorecore]

Yeah, those are pretty generous 'ballpark' figures for FA, just putting in perspective. I like your options, i just think Swisher might be out of our reach. I think we can afford, but not as much as someone else may commit.

[jbird]

I will be underwhelmed if the Phillies big off-season acquisitions are Pagan & Ross.

[GTown_Dave]

r00b's gonna overpay Bourn as fast as he can, make a few meaningless statements about staying healthy & getting better production out of certain players, & call it an offseason.

[Sil Campusano]

Of the "big name" outfield FA's out there this offseason, Bourn is the guy I'd least like to have.

[GTown_Dave]

A couple of pics from last night's game. Nothing mind-boggling.

[GBrettFan]

Great captions for your pics, GTown.

[Edmundo]

Naturally, Rollins popped up in the INF to end the game. If only it had been the last out of the season.

On a 2-0 count, just to put a cherry on top.

[GTown_Dave]

GBrettFan: In contrast, the Phillies have actually sprung for a Michael Martinez "Lineup Card". I've had the misfortune of seeing it on several occasions. I think that says all that needs to be said.

Edmundo: What good would a BB have done down by 4 in the bottom of the 9th? In that situation you need to aim for the solo shot & get the crowd all fired up!