Game chat: Road to Wild Card goes through Houston

Tyler Cloyd (1-1, 4.24) and the Phillies bring their playoff hopes to Texas for the first of four with the lowly Astros. First pitch is 8:05 p.m. with right-hander Lucas Harell (10-9, 3.83) on the mound for Houston. Of note for the Phillies: Kevin Frandsen returns to third and bats seventh. The Phils are riding a season-high seven-game winning streak. They trail St. Louis by just three games for the final Wild Card spot. Elsewhere, St. Louis begins a four-game series in Los Angeles tonight at 10:10 p.m. Lance Lynn and Josh Beckett are scheduled. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[Buy sell]

rfd leaves his bat on the shoulder for a strike and swings on non-strikes

Good work

[gobaystars!]

Running for Howard makes no sense his run doesn't matter. It would be a waste of a player.

[GTown_Dave]

Clutch, Dom. Clutch.

[Sil Campusano]

Fitting end to an ugly game.

[Sophist]

Dom hit it right in hole, but they weren't holding Howard.

[Bob]

Oh well, pound those Budweisers tonight and get em' tomorrow.

[SLO Phan]

That sucked.

[scruf]

It's not over but that was God awful. At least tomorrow is Friday.

[Iceman]

Yeah, I would replace Dom with either of the guys we traded away. Or some guys we have sitting on the bench, for that matter.

[GTown_Dave]

To quote the late, great Harry Kalas (& from a similar situation), "Oh no!"

[gobaystars!]

Tough loss. Gotta win tomorrow.
Scoring few runs and relying on a young bullpen wasn't going to work every night. They needs run and a long outing by Cole tomorrow.

[NEPP]

Domonated!

[Sophist]

Root for the Dodgers.

Aumont threw about a dozen balls in less than 20 pitches.

[DH Phils]

If they weren't dead two weeks ago, they aren't dead now.

[Sil Campusano]

No excuses not to score any runs against thr HOU bull pen. Yet another one of those "score a few runs early, forget how to hit for the rest of the game" nights, of which we've had too many this year.

[Pblunts]

BAP, why is Diekman supplanting anybody who was previously more effective a surprise? We're talking Chollie here.

[clout]

sophist: 12 balls, 5 strikes

[HammRadio]

what's troublesome about this loss... is not the loss itself... its the way they lost... tons of guys left on bases... and a bullpen collapse...

sounds like June.

Just terrible. you can't win'em all... but when the Phillies lose... this year...its exactly like this...

ugh.

[Iceman]

I will be interested to hear Cholly's comments on why he used Diekman there instead of Horst. Horst has to be hurt, or something. Cholly has been hesitant to use him lately, which is kind of inexplicable considering the alternatives.

A dirty little secret on BL is that Diekman is god awful. Some people want to pencil him into a BP spot next year. I'm curious as to why this would be a good idea.

[mainerob]

Long, long night with naught to show for it. I have the Pack in my nfl pool, so all is not lost.

Despite the vitriol that I spew, iceman, I don't take these painful losses to heart. I have a full life, so, no, I don't think I'll seek counseling.

Thanks, however, for the suggestion. Look inward, my man.

[GBrettFan]

It's not over. Get 'em tomorrow. Our strength is SP when the BP isn't needed for more than a few innings. We need to win the rest of the series, I think - if for no other reason than because it's the Astros, dammit.

[Buy sell]

That was ours for the taking.. Reasons file loss

1 - RISP

2 - overuse of Aumont and non use of DeFratus

[Bob]

I wonder about the concept of playing down to your opponents' level, seems like it might be over analyzing. I could see them perhaps taking a deep breath for a second against a team they feel they should beat and then having a problem.

No need for overreaction, but it wouldn't hurt for them to emphasize that they simply cannot again leave 11 runners on base. Simply can not.

[Not Cliff Lee]

Wow, all of this sh*t with 2 out. Bite me.

[bay_area_phan]

It's not the fact that we lost; we are going to lose a few between now and the end of the year (though it can't be more than a few).

And it's not that we lost to Houston. This is baseball. Even wretchedly bad teams sometimes beat good teams.

It's that we lost game where we led by 4 runs and where we scored early, then shut it down for the rest of the game. We have lost a ton of similar games this year but, when you need to go something like 16-3 down the stretch to have any realistic shot, you simply can't afford to give away 4-run leads.

[Iceman]

The 'playing down to your opponents' argument would make more sense if they didn't just win seven games in a row against cellar-dwelling teams.

They lost a game to a team that is very bad. It happens. No need to psycho-analyze why they lost. They are still a flawed team. But they are certainly capable of coming back from this and taking 3 of 4. They had a small margin for error and used it tonight. Can't afford any more slip ups, unfortunately.

[Jason]

Not a diekman fan. Wish they threw in pap to get 4 outs.

[Bubba]

Went to the well once to often with Aumont.
He has been used a lot and just had little control tonight.
Only good news is that Papelbon was not used, Cole going tomorrow gives a good chance to rebound.
Win 7, lose 1 is not so bad.

[EastFallowfield]

Cole Hamels career ERA vs Houston: 5.02.

[GBrettFan]

I didn't need to know that, EFF.

[Iceman]

While I'm not always a fan of arguments that cannot be explained by hard facts and statistics, I think there is absolutely something to be said about playing this friggin' team, in this friggin' park.

It is year after year with this crap, and you always think 'well, I know they have had trouble with them, but Houston is AWFUL this year.' And then every game is like pulling teeth, win or lose, and when they lose, it is always like this- the junk kick loss. Losses that shouldn't happen. And it has happened this way for years now.

I hate to say it's in their head, but it's in my freaking head, so I can't imagine it escapes the guys that actually live it out on the field.

[DH Phils]

BAP, Iceman, Jason, and Bubba: I agree with each of your successive posts.

Playoff odds are down from 5.5% to 3.0%, for what that's worth. Better than they were during the period from July 3 through September 11, and even with what they were before yesterday's game.

[Dragon]

"Even Napolean had his Watergate." -- Danny Ozark. I fear, as I said before this series started, that if they play down to their opponent, the dregs of MLB that are the 2012 'Stros, and fail to win at least 3 out of 4, they will meet their Watergate (so to speak). Not a good start.

[GBrettFan]

Jim Salisbury ‏@JSalisburyCSN
Thurs night's Phillies' loss was the 7th time this season they lost a game in which they were one out away from giving Pap a 9th inning lead

[Phillies Dude]

Just a couple of thoughts:

I wish some sportswriter would find out what is the story with Jeremy Horst.

I wasn't at the time too thrilled with Phillipe Aumont coming into the game. I wanted de Fratus as I thought that they had used Aumont too often of late and de Fratus has also looked pretty good.

I really don't see Domonic Brown as a future star to count on for years to hold down a corner outfield position on a winning team. There's something about his looping swing that doesn't result in as many line drives or power as I would expect. I hope I'm totally wrong as the Phillies seem to be investing a lot of hope that he will be a solid+ contributor to the team for years to come.

[Iceman]

For weeks I've been looking for a standard to illustrate the amount of games they absolutely should have won if not for the bullpen (LATB is a good stat, but when it comes down to it, every team has its share of these), and I think what Gbrettfan posted is that standard.

Even if you are generous and say Pap would've blown 2 of those saves anyway, that's five losses that absolutely should not have occurred. How many games back are they again?

[MG]

8th inning has been the Phils 'witching hour' this year. All kinds of trouble and misfortune.

[fastpuppy]

Nope they just couldn't bring that team with them. As I posted before they have been leaving to many on. They had the bases loaded 3x in one game and couldn't get 1 of them home? Then last night had them loaded 1x and what ended up stranding 6 total. You just can't do that against poor teams little own against good teams.Was hoping they could get that thorn out of their side, it just must be in ther so deep

[R.Billingsly]

Brutal loss last night. Most figured this would be the toughest game in Houston for both baseball and non-baseball reasons. But, the way they lost was infuriating. Shades of June, unfortunately.

But, the loss is out of the way. Now they have to win the next 6. A 6-1 road trip is a success, so it's still not out of the realm of possibilities.

Keep on believing.

[Not Cliff Lee]

I agree with the observation/frustration wrt putting up a quick 4-spot and then... (crickets chirping)

[pblunts]

I'm a card-carrying member of Chollie-bashing club, so take this with a grain of salt, as I can find a way to blame him for almost every close loss when his lack of managerial skills come into play.

But let me make sure I have this right. Chollie can throw a rookie with three weeks MLB experience in Aumont out there for a third straight day (after he also apparently warmed up earlier last night-is this accurate?) but he can't bring in our $50M closer on a third straight day to get a four out save? As usual, there was no anticipation on his part in that 8th inning. As soon as the second guy walks, really before that, Pap should have been up and warming. And if you needed extra time for Pap to get ready, bring in a body to throw one pitch and get him out of there.

Chollie needs to get creative and manage like his hair is on fire. It's not over, but we just lost our margin for error last night in this series. We simply can't lose another game this series.

You can give all the bad loss examples you want from this season, but last night was to me, by far, the most aggravating.

[MG]

Saw the 8th inning. Hard to tell whether Aumont tired or just the guy who can't throw a strike. Generally happened to him at least once a week in Reading if he appeared in 4-5 G.

Not surprised that Aumont was out there in the 8th despite probably not having a rested arm. Cholly will use the same reliever over & over again until he hits a rough patch. Apparently either Cholly doesn't trust De Fratus or think he should pitch in high leverage spots.

Understand why Cholly turned around Lowrie but not sure why it was Diekman. RH hitters have hit him a pretty healthy clip & simply BBs too many hitters.

Didn't see the post-game commentary on why it was Diekman and not Horst or Papelbon (who has seen a lot of innings himself lately though).

Utley will get a pass but he came up short in two critical ABs last night. Oh well. This was the game I figured they would lose this series. Now have to win the next 3.

[MG]

Imagine Chooch is still playing hurt to some degree given how infrequently he is starting.

Really miss his bat in the lineup right now especially with Kratz really slumping the last 2 weeks & Howard not hitting a lick this month either.

[johnnysanz3]

Season = over.

[lorecore]

The Houston Astros have 1 good player on their entire roster, and its Jed Lowrie. How we let him beat us is just a shame.

[dons]

The Cards have such an easy schedule the rest of the way 6 vs hou 3 vs cubs 3 each vs reds and nats who will be resting their best players for post season play. no more nle div for phillies. nats rule in every phase of game

[R.Billingsly]

pblunts: If you're a card-carrying member, then I'm the president. Thank you for saving me the trouble. This team is in "must win" mode and it doesn't seem like he manages that way. And as far as June is concerned. Go look back at some of those June games and tell me he didn't cost them a few. 9 one-run losses (and one extra-inning 2-run loss). Got to find a way to win some of those.

I'm expecting the statheads to come back with things like "our bullpen ERA was X," and "the team's OPS was Y," and so on. All true and valid points. But when a good team is struggling, a manager should find a way to win a few games here and there. Not all of them, mind you, but a few. Put the players in positions to succeed. Sometimes, they won't come trough. Admittedly, that's not on the manager, that's on the players. But, that's not what happens more often than not.

It's been his M.O. since he's been here. And was last night, too. How many runners was Aumont to walk/hit before he was taken out in a "must win" game? Apparently three.

[R.Billingsly]

To clarify: I don't "blame" last night's loss solely on Charlie (nor any of their loss, really). But, the ultimate nail-in-the-coffin situation was managed poorly and cost them the lead.

[Jack]

I agree with pblunts. The logic of being willing to overuse Aumont in a close game with the season on the line, but not Papelbon, is just mind-boggling.

The Phillies have been bad in a lot of different ways this year. One that has been consistent has been Charlie's complete inability to properly use his best pitchers in the biggest situations of a game.

[Buy sell]

Jack -- what you said times 10000%%%%

[Hbgphan]

Blaming this loss on the Sal Fasano picture in the previous post. He's been a thorn in the side of the Phillies ever since he left.

[Buy sell]

I know I posted this last nite a couple times. I watched Aumont in Lv a couple times this past season, 2 appearances - maybe 3 - he does the job,

3 or 4th in consecutive days is a crap shoot at best, more likely... He will melt down after a few pitches, resulting in. Multiple deep counts, BB's, WP, HBP, etc.. He had no business in that gm last night, given his MiLB past, dubee, Manuel, etc should have known and put Defratus or Paps ior Horst in,,,

Even my cat knew that

[MG]

http://www.csnphilly.com/09/14/12/Fatigue-catches-up-with-reliever-Aumont/landing.html?blockID=773097&feedID=693

So Cholly knows he is tired and out of gas and still thinks Aumont was his best option out there in the 8th?

Pardon my language but Cholly f@cking sucks at managing a bullpen and making in game decisions on how to use and when to pull/insert a guy.

[Bonehead]

I hate the 8th inning

[pblunts]

@ R. Billingsley- I somehow blocked Aumont's HBP out of my mind.

What is even more puzzling about him using Aumont (I guess it is lack of options) is that he generally pulls this kind of stuff with his veterans in terms of leaving them out there, showing trust maybe when he shouldn't, etc. The problem is, you have to be astute to recognize when the wheels are coming off and react accordingly.

While you can't give Pap a free pass for some of his blowups this season, (or any other player who has performed poorly in spots, it's part of the game) you can make the case that Chollie's misuse of him throughout the season might cost us a playoff berth.

[pblunts]

MG, I don't want to even open that link, it's going to aggravate me even more, if possible.

Honestly, this kind of sh*t is why he shouldn't be managing next year. I know he will be, but in a normal world, that kind of ineptitude screams "Fire Me."

[MG]

If De Fratus had blown it in the 8th or Papelbon had blown the game in the 9th, that's on the reliever for not executing and not the manager.

[RK]

Why not just say Cholly is not a strategic manager. It has been a problem throughout his career but very noticeable this year because he no longer had a stacked team.
It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback and say after the second out and before he HBP he should have removed him but the fact was that Aumont was ineffective why wait till disaster strikes. He often shows his loyalty to players by keeping them in when in fact as a manager he should know better.

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread

[pblunts]

MG, exactly. There is some degree of truth, even though I hate when Andy Reid says it, about putting your players in a position to succeed. That was clearly not the case with Aumont to start the inning, let alone once it started to go sideways.

[Sil Campusano]

I, too, want to know what is up with Horst. I figured he'd get a turn yesterday for at least one inning after the 3 inning Cloyd outing. Furthermore, figured that with Aumont pitching so much lately, that Bastardo would have the 8th inning.

Others have brought it up, but I don't get it either (bullpen management). Aumont was tired. Neither DeFratus or Horst got into the game, despite not having pitched the day before. I don't understand going with the tired guy with control problems. He got the first out, but after putting on the next guy, Aumont should've been out of the game (if they had to use him - I'd have preferred they did not).