Game chat: Brown back in as Cloyd draws Cincy

Domonic Brown returns to the Phillies lineup against right-handed Cy Young candidate Johnny Cueto when the Phillies open a Labor Day set in Cincinnati. First pitch is 1:05. Right-hander Tyler Cloyd takes his second turn in the Phillies' rotation as the hometown nine tries to forget Sunday night's painful loss in Atlanta. Steven Larud starts behind the plate. Juan Pierre will be in left with John Mayberry Jr.'s hot bat assigned to center field. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[aksmith]

A couple of things:

Mayberry may just be a second half player. That Sanderg guy you've all been talking about was one of the slowest starters in baseball history. If you took the first month of every season in his hall of fame career, and knitted them together, you would never have considered him a hall of famer.

As for firing Charlie: This team is not the same type of team he has done well with. He has been forced to play a bunch of minor league replacements for injured, aging vets. He has been forced to play with a pitching staff that has lost starters and basically has one or two competent bullpen pieces on a good day. Which brings up the point about managing: Managing in baseball is not like coaching in football. In baseball, you have maybe one or two moves that can make the difference between winning and losing, and those moves are often made when making out the lineup. It's up to the players to perform, so a lot of what a baseball manager does is manage the clubhouse. And even there, the veteran players do a lot of the managing for him. But here's the biggest thing: Bill Belichik can beat your team with his players, and he can beat his team with your players. Baseball is different. Charlie can't manage a bad team to a good record. Francona sucked in Philly, then he was great in Boston. Not really, he just had better players.

So, is Charlie the right manager for this team at this time? Maybe not. Is Ryne Sandberg? No way of knowing. But there are major differences between managing in the minors and the majors. The minors is more about player development than winning. The majors is more about winning, so strategy is emphasized way more. Might be nice to bring Sandberg up to be bench coach for a year before Charlie moves upstairs. But if they're going to move Charlie upstairs now, Sandberg would at least bring some major league credibility to his duties.

[awh]

"...Hamels fared okay with a similar ailment at the end of last season."

CoC, "similar" is not "the same".

Different pitcher, different body and frame, different motion, and possibly a more serious case of bone chips. Plus, different players a re affected differently by "the same" injury.

To wit, some guys tear their ACL, rehab, and don't skip a beat, and some guys never make it back. It's the same with TJ surgery.

[Iceman]

It also shouldn't be taken lightly how the team is playing right now, and how much of that is a product of Manuel keeping them focused on winning.

This is the second time that upper-management has sold of players that were key contributors and the loss of them was almost sure to make the team worse. And this is the second time they have played better without them.

Say what you want about the team aging, not being what they used to be, or Cholly not being a great in-game tactician, but not a lot of managers would be able to get this type of year-round effort from his players so consistently, especially through a year like this. I don't think that is an insignificant 'intangible' that Manuel brings to the table.

[denny b.]

"I am of the opinion that Mayberry has to put up ~.850-900 OPS numbers over the next month to be given a lock for next season."

I think Mayberry is already a lock to be on the roster next season.

He's a good all-around player who can play multiple positions and doesn't cost much.

[The Hook]

Cholly said AAAberry good CF, but no on level of Bourne or BJ upton. Was cholly letting us in on whom the front office is going to target. Bourne hell no. Upton yes. I've counting down his days in tampa. Having a decent year and with facing al east pitching a lot. He would be perfect on team. Heymen said that philles like youk and could be on Inge in FA. I still would be good with youk. Two year and play 130 games. Frand could be solid fill in. And youk could be DH or play first when DH in effect. Or a trade could still be poss. But with the future prospects at third. Will they try and get a chase h etc....?

[Iceman]

"He's a good all-around player"

He isn't a good all around player. He has one true skill- hitting for power against LHP- and he is slightly above-average at all three OF positions.

He has stolen one base this year. He doesn't take walks. Doesn't hit for average. He mashes the Randy Wolfs and Pat Maholms of the world. Good enough to have a spot on the roster, I think, but not good enough to start, and certainly not a guy you necessarily want having ~400 PAs for your team.

I do agree with clout that we should give him another month to see where the numbers end up. Maybe he'll double his walks against LHP. That might convince me otherwise.

[Dragon]

Mayberry is fine as a 4th or 5th outfielder. Whether it be by trade or FA, I would like to see a lot more from the starting outfield positions next year. As for the starting pitching situation if Cloyd and Kendrick finish well and Worley comes back healthy, I see that as a major plus. Pitchers get hurt and you can never have enough good starting pitching.

[jbird]

Iceman: "the BL savior of saviors" is a comment. Personally I believe I always said that I preferred to keep Lee & Hamels but if one had to be traded or if Hamels wasn't going to se-sign, then Olt and others would be an acceptable return.

[aksmith]

I don't see what one more month of Mayberry tells anyone who's been watching. He's a backup and spot starter. If he's more than that, you need some on base skills and base stealing and count working from other parts of your lineup. He's a good, not great, fielder at all three OF positions.

You can survive with him starting if most of the rest of your team is above average.

On to another topic: I have watched every Phillies first baseman since the early 1960s. Howard is not the only who couldn't throw. Ricky Jordan may have actually been worse at throwing to second. But for overall play, I have never seen anyone worse. He's currently on par with Dick Stuart. Errors mean nothing because back then, an error was a more honest stat. But as far as fielding grounders, making throws, and most of all scooping throws, he's now tied for the worst I've ever seen. Maybe the Achilles is still bothering him and not allowing him to stretch. But if his play isn't better next year, he will have to be DH'ing during interleague play. So, if Youkilis DH'ing is the plan, I think we have to think again.

[NEPP]

As 4/5 Outfielders go, Mayberry is pretty solid actually.

People's expectations are way too high for bench players.

If Mayberry could hit RHP even a little bit better, he'd be a starter somewhere.

[Kendrick Appreciation Society]

I don't see the Phils moving any out of Cloyd, Kendrick or Worley no matter how successful Cloyd is down the stretch.

No team survives on 5 starters.

[Iceman]

Any way someone with more knowledge can run an analysis of the average slash line for the OF that gets the 4th amount of PA on every team?

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Mayberry will do just enough to make next year's team, only to frustrate us for the first 4 months of the season.

[denny b.]

"He isn't a good all around player."

You are clueless, Ice.

He mashes left-handed pitchers. He hits for power (XBH's). He is a good outfielder. He throws well (check out how many assists he has). He can play multiple positions. He has good speed. And he's cheap and under the age of 30.

I could give two craps how many walks he takes. I want him swinging the bat. Once he's got more aggressive at the plate and has quit watching so many hittable pitches go by, he has started hitting well. Let Utley take pitches. I want Mayberry swinging.

What is your definition of a "good player"?

[NEPP]

He'll make the league minimum and backup all 3 OF spots next year while hitting LHP.

He shouldn't be a starter and he likely wont be in 2013 unless something goes wrong.

[denny b.]

Ice-

Is Ryan Howard a "good all-around player"?

He has one true skill. He is a run-producer.

He can't hit lefties. He can't run. He strikes out more then a 1/3 of the time. He is a terrible defender. He can't throw. He can only play one position.

"All-Around Player" means being a well-rounded player. Being able to do multiple things proficiently.

Mayberry is not a great player. But he is a good player, who can do several things at least better then average. He is very useful and has versatility. He has "all-around" ability.

[denny b.]

And, no I am not comparing Mayberry with Howard.

I am just saying that you can be a "good all-around baseball player" without taking walks and stealing bases.

Mayberry does a lot of things to help a team win. He may not be great at any one thing. He may be below average at a few things. But he's good at several aspects of the game.

[Iceman]

dennyb- I was actually about to use Howard as an example. He is not a good 'all-around' player, but he is a very good player because he can do one thing extremely well.

You have to really stretch the definition of 'all-around' and 'proficient' to consider Mayberry a 'good all-around player.' He doesn't steal bases and he's not really a spectacular defender. He's slightly above average, and he can play all three positions. He does not hit for average or get on base. He hits for power against one type of pitcher. That is not a 'good all-around player.'

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread