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Friday, August 31, 2012


From the last thread, re: corner OF.

Jack, I'm not saying I agree with the plan. I think at least one OF should be brought in as a contingency, with both Brown and the planned LF platoon being relatively big question marks- if not a legitimate bat (Swisher) that would scrap the platoon idea entirely.

I don't want Mayberry playing a significant role on the team this year. But unfortunately, I think it's already been decided.

I really don't think this would prevent the team from contending, as you seem to think, though. It will just make it a bit more difficult.

re: Pierre clearing

good take JW, Ruben probably put word out that he'd be recalled off waivers if anyone claimed, so if you want him, you better let him clear and then make an offer.

Lorecore: It's a theory and awesome if he pulled it off that way. The part that's tough is convincing a team from putting in a claim just to block a rival. Maybe the current ordering worked out since many of the teams that really need him are the ones on the playoff fringes.

Nice take on a topic that has already been beat to death with nonsense on both ends of the argument (JRoll is lazy/doesn't hustle to the Cholly is an imbecile for benching JRoll yesterday/people who criticize JRoll are racists).

Per Twitter: If the Phillies score 6 runs and win tonight's game, Papa John's online will accept 50% off food orders with the promo code PHILLIES6

If that doesn't make you realize the greatness of Twitter, I don't know what will.

Problem with a lack of hustle is poor "optics." It's what the customers see. It's unprofessional and makes people assume that the players don't have good a work ethic (something much different and more important).

Manuel is clear--not running makes him look like a weak manager. I think Rollins' point is more pride than work ethic. I believe that he plays the game the right way and is focused. He needs to swallow his pride and listen to the peanut gallery (and Charlie) for a change.

JW: I think that theory only could work with a player like Pierre...someone a lot of teams could use, but someone who no one really needs/needs to block.

Lorecore: Right - and his contract is peanuts.

I was at the game yesterday and am finally caught up on the threads. A few comments:

- The real game: From the stands--out of range of radio, television, and the blogosphere--it was nice to watch the game unfold as a game, not a drama about one player. It was a pleasure to watch KK settle in, handle himself with confidence, and sustain the low pitch count. It was fun to watch Frandsen continue to get on base. It was gratifying to see Lerud presumably catch a good game and get on base one time (we enjoyed his .500 avg after his first two at bats.) Not that anyone was anointing him as next year's backup to Chooch; it is just fun to see someone's debut.

- Jimmy: When Jimmy was pulled, the first reaction of the crowd was hope that he wasn’t injured. But he was pulled, the game went on, and the focus was what was happening on the field. The fans groaned more about the pop ups than the baserunning. Yet, the press likes a storyline. Without playoff drama, there needs to be manufactured drama of some kind. (Editorial: My personal opinion is that Jimmy should hustle out of respect for his employer, teammates, fans, himself, and the game itself. But the whole issue is incredibly magnified, and not what fans cared about at the bank. And the race thing is crazy! Just the day before JRoll got a lot of positive press for his work with the Ugandan team) But the story seems to take on a life of its own.

- MiniMart: I bash him as much as anyone, and wasn’t happy he was starting on the day I had tickets. Yet I had a chance to watch him a lot in person versus on television when the cameras catch only certain moves. The guy seems like an excellent athlete in terms of how he moves, runs, judges the ball in the field, and hustles (sorry to use that word.) One wonders how difficult it is for someone who is a good athlete in general to learn a BIT about batting.

- The crowd: The gorilla and rabbit were two folks having fun in the corner 300 section way above the right field gate. (They must have been drenched in sweat under those costumes…it was hot in the stands) They were with a group of young adults…maybe college age. The Jumbotron kept showing them, mostly because the rest of the crowd was subdued. It wasn’t as if the crowd was bored or negative, but it was more like back in the Vet days when people came just to see a game instead of the tense energy of last year when every play seemed critical.

- The attendance figures are absolutely inflated. There were sections that even by mid-game still had more blue seats than people.

- Personal beefs: I know I sound grumpy, but I detest it when people come and go from their seats during at bats. It is also annoying to have the guy in front of you take pictures holding up an iPad, totally blocking the line of vision.

- Running the bases: After the game by 12-year-old ran the bases. Parents got to escort the kids down and wait on the warning track as the kids walked around. I must admit, it was a thrill for me to be down on the field, looking up at the empty stands, gazing into the dugout, and getting a view from the very lower seats.

- Fun observations: (1) A lady in my section said that Kevin Frandsen was doing so well because before the game she had seen him share a long passionate kiss with his young lady. (2) Many fans were seen in the parking lot after the game changing from their Phillies red to Eagles green.

bay_area_phan: We can all believe the Phils "need" 3 starting OF, but you and everyone else knows there is no way they bring in 3 FA OFs. At most, they may sign 2. But they have Brown, Mayberry, Schierholtz and Nix on the roster already for 5 OF positions. I'm not saying they all survive, but at least one of the starting OF spots will come from either one of them or a platoon of two.

I suppose it's nice & all if r00b engaged in such cleverness, but he might have just as easily have avoided the need by trading Pierre before the non-waiver deadline. I find it difficult to believe the market has changed this past month to such a degree that interest/return would be any greater.

This team needs DOM to start next year, they can't afford to go another year without any pre-arb position player making an impact. I know this team is contending, but you just have to give him a year in the corner somewhere and hope for the best.

can of corn -

I was at the game as well and share a lot of the points you make. I went to the Eagles game as part of a "doubleheader" of sorts but just wore what I had on for the Phillies game which was my Halladay t-shirt. Saw a lot of Phillies fans at the Linc last night with the same sort of attire.

Great day. Beautiful night. It was fun...and relaxing.... to be a Philadelphia sports fan yesterday.

Gtown: It's changed quite a bit. Look at where the Pirates are compared to the deadline. TB has risen ...

I've been wondering this: is the waiver process simultaneous or sequential? If the Phillies waive Pierre, does Houston have to say yes or no, and then Chicago, and then Colorado, etc? Or does every team simultaneously see Pierre on waivers, and the priority only comes into play if multiple teams have claimed him?

We need to sign Swisher so we can settle the wet/dry debate once and for all.

Signing a FA corner OF:

Guess it depends on how much cash they have left over after signing a starting CF. If they sign Bourn though, they blow their wad and are looking at cheap options who are a questionable upgrade over what they already have.

I would have to look at the list but I wouldn't an additional RH bat. Mayberry has a been a complete zero vs RHP pitching. Doesn't help that he has been pressed into more action though and exposed with 218 PA vs RHP and just 137 PA vs LHP.

Mayberry's power though against RHP is awful impressive this year though (.256 ISO/.541 SLG) with 18 XBH including 8 HRs.

***Or does every team simultaneously see Pierre on waivers, and the priority only comes into play if multiple teams have claimed him?

This is how it works.

Meant vs. LHP pitching.

canofcorn: Couldn't agree more about the tablet camera users. They hold it right in the line of vision that the surrounding people are using as well. Only one time did I sit behind someone who used it enough to be a nuisance, who also held it somewhat up as they edited/uploaded.

This team isn't doing anything with the direction Rube is leading them

"The period a player is exposed to waivers is 47 hours. If you can imagine a secret ballot, that is the waiver claim process."

If I ruled the world, there would be cell phone blockers installed at all MLB include using their non-wireless features like cameras.

I saw stuff like hustling all the time in front of the coaches called "eyewash" in a recent book about a pitcher in the minors. Stuff that is done to look good, but really has no impact on the outcome of a game.

I'm old school enough to think that it's part of being a professional, you play the game the right way, and sometimes that means applying the eyewash f/b/o the FO or the paying customers. I don't mind Jimmy or anyone else taking care of themselves and understand its a long season, and that I'd rather have a player ease off on a meaningless play rather than pull a muscle or end up on the DL. Personally, I don't think it's that hard a line to draw for the players. I think the Phillies, by and large, have it figured out and comport themselves pretty much as consummate professionals on the field.

FWIW, I imagine that most people on this board have to do this to some extent in their day to day work lives. It can be a simple as an attorney needing to wear a suit to court as opposed to showing up in casual dress. You could make the same opening statement in flip flops and a Hawaiian shirt, but you can't do it. You have to show respect for the arena you have chosen to work in sometimes.

"Do people actually care about the frontrunner comments?"

For how often it is discussed both here and elsewhere, I'd say that it wasn't forgotten and I don't expect it will be. It's at least as cared about as "Good game; lets go eat".

As for whether or not he was right, I still haven't heard a clear cut, universally accepted definition of what a "front runner" is, nor am I sure what he had in mind when he made the comment. They're jackass comments no matter how they're interpreted. The Phillies are an entertainment product, and when it fails to deliver entertainment, its fans will spend less money. Am I a Star Wars "front runner" because I won't by those god awful prequels on Bluray?

In any case, I really don't care personally, but I certainly won't question why he is booed when it happens. Words have consequences, justified or not.

If it means that they take him out of the leadoff spot, I hope Jimmy never "hustles" for the rest of his career. A non-hustling J-Roll is still better than most SS in baseball.

DH Phils,

That's an interesting question; information is quite different in those two scenarios. It's probably a wash on whether more players clear under simultaneous or sequential. (Winners' curse effect is balanced out by no more blocking.)

Nepp, thanks for answering. That's the way it should be in my opinion.


" If they sign Bourn though, they blow their wad and are looking at cheap options who are a questionable upgrade over what they already have."

What exactly is 'their wad'? Do you know what it is? I don't think any of us do.

Amaro knows what needs to be done to improve this team (CF, bullpen, 3B). We don't know how much money he has to play with. So I would caution saying "He shouldn't sign this guy because he'd blow all the money." You don't know that.

JW: Pierre is a singles hitter who also happens to be a big liability in the field. Maybe I'm underestimating interest, but I really don't expect much. He's like an old nickel. If you dropped it I'd pick it up, but I'm not gonna go out of my way making change just to acquire him.

/poor analogy

Iceman - I've read a couple places recently that Swisher is said to be looking for the "Werth contract". If that is even close to true, count me out on Swisher as an option.

Why would an interested team pass on a claim for Pierre giving the phillies some more leverage to deal to any team?

Well, Alex, if the other team believes Rube is credible when he says he'll pull Pierre back if anyone makes a claim. Then the choice is make a claim and have no shot at Pierre or pass and have a shot.

You see, Rube is playing three-dimensional chess while all the other GMs are playing checkers.

NEPP, he did go to Stanford, after all...

And yet I read on BL yesterday that Pierre could not possibly clear waivers.

"I've read a couple places recently that Swisher is said to be looking for the "Werth contract". If that is even close to true, count me out on Swisher as an option."

Oh Lord. Well, if that's true, count me out on him, also.

I know I come across as a guy that doesn't put any merit into trying to get value at players for a cheaper price. That's definitely not the case. Massively overpaying a nice player like Swisher when a much, MUCH cheaper addition can be had, and make a similar impact, is extremely wasteful.

People like Bill Baer though are so obsessive about value that it's ridiculous, especially considering we're talking about a team that is willing to go near $200 million with their payroll. It's like some fans want to root for a cheap franchise after arguing for years that the ownership was too cheap. It boggles the mind. If you search for 'value' at every position, your team will have very little chance at contending.

If the Phils are going to 'shoot their wad' this year, I'd rather it be on a player whose skill set is exactly what the team needs (Bourn), rather than 'shooting their wad' on 4 or 5 bullpen arms, 'shooting their wad' trading for Headley. Or on Nick Swisher.

But then would stop a competitor, who isn't interested in Pierre, to make a claim, absolutely knowing that Rube withdraws him.

Will: "The Phillies are an entertainment product, and when it fails to deliver entertainment, its fans will spend less money."

Are games only entertaining when the Phillies win?

Cousin: "But then would stop a competitor, who isn't interested in Pierre, to make a claim, absolutely knowing that Rube withdraws him."

This: Teams that do a spite block might themselves need a guy to pass thru waivers someday. And they will be blocked because of it. It's happened before.

clout: only casual fans spend money when they win (look at team store after a win at home - esp when team leading division). The real fans are always around.

If I ruled the world, there would be cell phone blockers installed at all MLB include using their non-wireless features like cameras.
Posted by: NEPP | Friday, August 31, 2012 at 01:40 PM

I use my cell at the games to communicate with friends watching the game at home to clarify close calls, injuries, the death of Osama Bin Laden, etc.

Ron Jones: Exactly right.

Just because a guy is looking for a huge contract does not mean he has any realistic chance of getting it. Nick Swisher is a very good player but he's not a superstar & I'd be pretty surprised (though not completely shocked) if anyone pays him as such. On the other hand, if we could get him on a 3-year deal, we should jump at the opportunity.

I think the Dodgers have shown that they will be a huge Wild Card in free agency. Nobody knows what they will be willing to spend. I don't even think they know. Hamels might've gotten $200 million from them.

They certainly seem to have enough outfielders, but they did before dealing for Crawford, so who knows? The fact is, if the Phils want the type of impact player the lineup will need next year, they're going to have to overpay. Period.

Stark writes about the Dodgers:

According to computations by, they're already on the hook for $181.3 million in salaries to 17 players for next season -- meaning they're $3.3 million over the $178 million threshold right now, before they even add in benefits payments and fill out the rest of their roster.

Dang, now I know what I've been doing wrong! I keep hearing if you 'do PEDS', it will help your baseball skills and you can succeed better. I thought they said 'PEZ', and I've been pounding down those stupid-ass candies! Damnb!

Most ridiculous steroid user:

Manny Alexander whose car trunk had anabolic steroids in it during the '00 season when he hit:

.211/.261/.325 (46 +OPS) in 209 PAs with the Red Sox.

Galvis's .226/.254/.363/.617 (64 OPS+) isn't much better than Alexander's.

Iceman - Good point and the reason I don't want to see Galvis given a starting job next year.

The surprise in Galvis' power overlooks the fact that he was a hacker who chases way too much pitches out of the zone, swings too often on the first pitch, gets overpowered by fastballs, and almost never takes a walk. He also had horrid numbers vs RHP too.

Galvis has a nice future as a utility infielder ahead of him as long as his back issue doesn't affect his fielding. No contender is going to consider him a full-time starter at 2B/SS.

MG- imagine if they do move Utley to 3B to put Galvis in the lineup. On nights against LHP you've got Mayberry, Rollins and Galvis, three players who would sooner walk on hot coals than take a walk.

Amaro said that they needed to focus on getting on base this season and his acquisitions didn't really reflect that, nor did the team's overall approach. They need to get guys that can draw some damn walks in the off-season. That's why Youkilis would be a nice target. Even Bourn gets on at a ~.350 clip. Pagan would be a weakness in that regard. BJ Upton has a traditionally decent walk rate but not this year (although all his numbers, except HRs, are down across the board).

Iceman - Youkilis is the guy I want but the issue is how many years/money he gets among what is a horrendous 3B class and what is shaping up as a weaker FA class too.

clout: Of course not, but for the seasons when the Phillies refused to spend money, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the fans, likewise, refused to spend money. That doesn't make then "front runners". It makes them savvy consumers who aren't suckered out of their money.

Scott Rolen may get booed when he comes to town, but he was absolutely right at the time.

Was also at the game:

-No way 43,000 showed up. Not an indictment of the fans, but definitely a fact. I can say it wasnt as far from that number people would think, probably 38-39,000. It was hot, I had tickets in section 309. Never made it to the seats. Walked around, eventually stood 3rd base side and moved towards the field in the final 2 innings.

-Definitely not a typical Phils-Mets game. Much fewer Mets fans, expectedly. And everyone got along. We seemed to more accept we are both bad teams.

-Crowd got into it at points, but the game itself wasn't the world's greatest.

-People were more upset with Jimmy's 2nd popup, rather then his lack of hustle on that play

Drawing walks is great, but the problem with Youkilis, at this point, is that drawing walks is pretty much the only skill he brings to the table. The guy is not only in pretty steep decline, but he also can't stay on the field. He's a guy I really hope the Phillies don't target. He just screams "Disaster!"

"...for the seasons when the Phillies refused to spend money, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the fans, likewise, refused to spend money. That doesn't make then "front runners". It makes them savvy consumers who aren't suckered out of their money."

This is such a crock. The idea that the way fans approach how they spend money on their favorite team is 'savvy' is complete garbage. Take note of how GTown Dave said he's not going to renew his season tickets next year in part because of the money the team spent on Hamels. What a boatload of savvy!

I think what people are missing is that there is an enormous difference between people who are baseball fans, and people who are merely Phillies fans. The cavernous gap between the two is where you get the 'front-runner' label. Some people truly enjoy the game of baseball, will watch it no matter who is playing, and will support and watch their local team through years of losing because they enjoy the sport. Others like the Phillies because they live in or around Philadelphia, could not care less about the sport once they're eliminated from contention, and will be all 'savvy' and stuff in the years they are not competitive.

I don't think anybody is criticizing those who are either type of fan. But stop with the high-and-mighty 'we are being savvy' crap, because it isn't true.

On the Galvis/steroids topic, I wonder if Kevin Stocker hung with Dykstra during the 1993 season - it was the only time Stocker was any good, of course then I would wonder why he didn't continue to use them.

Attendance figures are paid attendance, not gate attendance. Been that way forever.

"No way 43,000 showed up."

Yeah, no sh!t. When are people gonna realize that the attendance that's posted on the Jumbotron is PAID attendance???

"Drawing walks is great, but the problem with Youkilis, at this point, is that drawing walks is pretty much the only skill he brings to the table [...] he also can't stay on the field."

Kevin Youkilis, since being traded (53 games):

.250/.368/.474/.842 (124 OPS+) with 12 HRs and 38 RBI. Projects to a 4.5 WAR over a 162 game season.

From a quick look at his game logs, he's missed 3 games since the trade. He's on a 600 AB pace.

Other than pretty much everything you argued, BAP, you're spot on.

Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki

Rollins is playing tonight. Went into Manuel's office to apologize.

For those of you wondering if our friend John Bowker has been tearing it up in Japan:

.182/.258/.284, 3 HR, 9 RBI in 176 AB


Another one of interest:

Scott Mathieson: 2-0, 10 Sv, 1.80 ERA, 46/11 K/BB in 40 IP

I am officially stating Jimmy Rollins "issues" may indeed be a figment of my imagination. For the sake of the Phillies, one can only hope. The reason for my dire, earlier posts arose from the chronic nature of his transgressions, and Manual’s insistence that lack of hustle will not be tolerated. Looks as if Chollie wins again. Good for him.

What a miserable season. Maybe Rollins is acting out just how everyone else feels at this point. Like it or not, I'm pretty sure that Jimmy will be viewed as the team leader as long as he wears the red pinstripes.

Another post from Twitter that may or may not fit the narrative:

Matt Gelb ‏@magelb

Rollins initiated the meeting to apologize. "He walked in there and manned up," Manuel said.

Scott Rolen may get booed when he comes to town, but he was absolutely right at the time.

Out of all the ex-philly villians, I never 'got' the Rolens hate. His beef was with mgmt's commitment to winning, not with the fans.

I'd rather have a GG and near all star numbers at 3rd than Dale Carnegie.

Iceman: What part of my argument did you just refute with those 53 games worth of statistics?

He doesn't hit for average, he can't field, and he can't run. Ok, I guess I'll give you that he hits for decent power. Certainly not great, but slightly above average. So, by next year, he'll be a 34-year old .240-hitting 3rd baseman who can't field or run, has missed between 40 and 60 games three years in a row, but has slightly above average power & knows how to draw a walk with the best of them. Oh yeah, and who will command a 3-year contract. No thanks. We have enough declning players with big contracts.

On the Rolen subject, I never understand the Werth haters - he took the big contract/money that Philly didn't offer, what did he do wrong except help bring a championship to Philly?

I'm not exactly sure of the details but Werth signing with Nats somehow must be tied to Mini Mart's long term contract with the Phillies.

Gelb reports only Schierholtz will join the team when rosters expand tomorrow. Both Reading and Lehigh Valley are in the playoffs so no reason to raid their rosters with nothing on the line for the big league club. Amaro was non-committal on any further callups.

BAP- he has a friggin' 124 OPS+ since the trade! That is really good, especially considering the alternatives. The numbers project to 36 HRs and 114 RBI over a full season. Your only legitimate gripe is his '.240 average' (which is actually .250). The 11% walk rate in that time is not insignificant, either. I don't understand your disgust with walks. They matter.

You also claim he can't stay on the field, which hasn't been the case since the trade. So, yeah. You whine constantly about the offense, yet bristle at the idea of getting a player that would really help.

Given that there's nobody else available that wouldn't be in the bottom 3 of starting 3B in all of baseball, I'm curious as to why anyone would think it's all that big of a risk. It's more of a risk to go into the season with garbage at 3B like we did this year, and that's the only alternative here.

Good on J-Roll. It was the right thing to do, & I'm glad he took the initiative.

Now when is Martinez gonna apologize for being the single worst Phillies player of the past 75 years or so?

Cheap 2012 Philadelphia Eagles Season Tickets - No Waiting List!!!--->

I thought with Wig's speed , (/s), he would have caught prado's BA hit

BTW Another great crowd in ATL.

Katz has the cannon!!!

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