Game chat: Worley eyes stronger effort in matinee

We're talking rubber match, and Cliff Lee, on this beautiful Sunday in Philadelphia.

Game chat: Vance Worley (6-7, 3.83) tries to rebound from his shortest start of the season when the Phillies wrap up their series with Lance Lynn (13-5, 3.52) and the Cardinals. First pitch is 1:35. Meanwhile, Saturday night proved to be more of the same for Cliff Lee and the struggling offense as sinkerballer Jake Westbrook took it to the Phils in a 4-1 defeat. Lee, who has been nothing short of a disappointment this season even though he receives generally less scrutiny than other stars, has yet to win at home and has yet to rattle off a dominant run of starts the way he did last summer. In Lee, the Phils were counting on a Cy Young caliber effort and he hasn't delivered anything close. Dating back to Game 2 of the NLDS, it's time for the Phillies to start asking "What have you done for me lately?"

Meanwhile, the offense has yet to discover its post trade-deadline identity. Saturday night was rough as Westbrook pitched his type of game.

Comments

[Scotch Man]

I hate discussing his W/L. At home they've won games he's pitched. That being said, he has been mediocre this year. He's certainly not my first choice to have the ball in a big game. He might be my fourth.

[aksmith]

If we think this is the Lee we're getting going forward, then Rube should have let him go on waivers for whatever he could get. Because if he continues to fold in nearly every tough contest, nobody will take on all that salary after the season.

If you think Lee is just having an off year, a possibility, then you grit your teeth and remind yourself that he's healthy and these games haven't meant anything for a while now.

I was happy when Rube re-signed him. But watching him flop repeatedly this season, I have to wonder if going in a different direction wouldn't be better. If dropping off Lee's salary with another team allows you to sign a couple of middling starters and a couple of better hitters to take two outfield positions, then I'd have to do it.

[Mini Mart Mike Martinez]

Just call me "Mr. Sunday".

I'm swinging for the fences today, bitches.

[salt]

I haven't heard that Lee's hurt but his almost refusal to throw the curveball suggests an elbow problem.

[aksmith]

He threw the curveball. He threw one in the first inning, it hung out in the middle of the plate and got pasted. He was lucky it didn't leave the park.

[salt]

Ok, but not well. That was a big pitch for him last yr...

[bay_area_phan]

"Meanwhile, the offense has yet to discover its post trade-deadline identity."

Unfortunately, I think it has more than discovered its post trade-deadline identity. Its identity is that it is one of the worst offenses in baseball.

[Joe Morgan]

2 wins in August? He sucks.

[RSB]

Worley is looking more and more like a J.A. Happ flash in the pan.

[coolhandluke]

I believe that both Lee and Worley are pitching hurt to some degree. Yet I would think Dubee and the training staff would be able to spot an injury.

[DH Phils]

As much as I dislike the sacrifice bunt, there are few plays in sports that I find more elegant than a bunt single.

[coolhandluke]

Utley was out at 3rd

[wes covington's ghost]

what an amazing slide by the saint !!

[bay_area_phan]

This is where Howard strikes out, Dom ground out weakly, and we end up stranding a runner on 3rd and never scoring again.

[bay_area_phan]

I like when my gloomy predictions turn out wrong.

[coolhandluke]

who could blame a guy for making gloomy predictions

[coolhandluke]

wonder why Worley shakes like he's having a siezure before each pitch

[MG]

Surprised that Schneider wasn't in the lineup today especially with Worley on the mound, RHP in Lynn, and no off-day tomorrow.

Just don't understand what Cholly is thinking at times. Treated Kratz like a contagious agent who was quarantined over 3 weeks (didn't play a single inning) in late June/early July and now he doesn't give him an off-day in a spot where it makes sense.

Harp on his roster management over the course of a season and his in-game pitching moves but this season has arguably been Cholly's worst here as a manager since '05 (first year). Much more often than not he has pushed the wrong buttons or made his share of perplexing decisions.

[MG]

Not surprised that Brown was in the lineup today but I was a bit at Mayberry. Seems like he is going to be a regular from here on out starting everyday.

He's been 'okay' since he was been a regular on July 31st:

.250/.333/.438 (.771 OPS) in 36 PAs over 10 G

SSS but imagine the numbers he put over the next 6 weeks will determine if Amaro deems it a priority to try to sign a part-time veteran RH OF bat or not this offseason.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: Kratz hasn't hit lately, but he can work the count, draw some walks, & hit homeruns. It would be pretty hard to fill out a lineup card which includes both Mini-Mart and Schneider, and expect to win the game.

[MG]

Worley is scuffling again today and struggling to find anything he can throw with consistency.

[coolhandluke]

Worley will never go past 6 innings. He has control issues and does not appear to be in shape.

[MG]

coolhandluke - He's pitching hurt so its hurt to take any conclusions but yeah he is a guy who appears he could benefit from a bit better conditioning. Hard to tell but it looks like he is a carrying an extra 10-15 pounds or so from last year.

[coolhandluke]

bad news bears

[Corn]

The Phillies way...pitching thru injury

[can_of_corn]

I never get tired of seeing the Big Piece do his thing. Thanks Ryan. It really does feel like old times when Ryan and Chase are playing well, and it is a comfort in the midst of this uncomfortable season.

But I’m still confused about whether the team’s primary objective is to win games now or to audition/prep guys for next year. On one hand, there is clearly a move afoot to assess roster spots for next year among position players and the ‘pen. Yet on the other hand it seems that some injured players continue to be trotted out or played longer than necessary. And roster decisions don’t make sense for either objective.

I understand the team needs to continue to fill the seats, but in trying to do both…win and prepare for 2013…neither will be done well. Trying to be “everything to everyone” would seem to result in being “nothing to nobody.”

[Fatalotti]

Just turned the game on: first player I see is Michael Martinez.

How is still hanging on? Even on THIS team?

[Chris Wheeler]

Hey, Dutch, I can hook you up with my toupee guy if you like.

[Fatalotti]

Mini-Mart has an OPS of .374. I mean, that's only 2 points better than Juan Pierre's slugging percentage. How horrendous. It's a mockery to the sport that this guy has a job.

PS, I don't know why I'm so upset at Mini-Mart today, but what the hell.

[Fatalotti]

Also, whether Worley is hurt or simply out of shape, it'd be nice if he made some adjustments next year, as his K/9 has been declining every year since he came up, while his BB/9 has been increasing each year, as well.

He's also not a guy who gives you enough innings as a starter. He's yet to average even 6 IP/GS in his career, usually floating around 5.5 IP/GS. I obviously don't expect him to be an ace, but on a team that will need its pitching very much next year, I hope that Worley gains the ability to pitch deeper into games, and remain an above average starter.

[MG]

More shoddy defense today. This lineup wasn't exactly a good defensive one but lack of focus.

From what I have seen from Kratz so far, he appears to have a hell of an arm but he isn't very mobile behind the plate. Struggles to block pitches in the dirt & field balls in front of home. Guess as long as he has that arm, it helps to make up for some of his other defensive shortcomings.

[bay_area_phan]

"I don't know why I'm so upset at Mini-Mart today, but what the hell."

Expressing outrage with Mini-Mart is like expressing outrage with Hitler. You do not need any excuse for it.

There. I just compared Mini-Mart to Hitler. Let's see if anyone can beat that!

[Jr.]

Another HR for the old man at Reading today. Can't let him play against those kids,it's just not fair. Get him moved up so he can be put in his place.

[Buddy Ryan in 2008]

That's the Schwimer I was expecting...

[clout]

Nice relayt by Mini-Mart.

[clout]

BTW, the frontrunners have cleared out as predicted, which means 50-post Sunday game threads are going to be routine.

[Buster]

It is getting really bad when almost have more errors than hits on the game. Our bullpen is awful, but our offense just can't hit good pitching. And I don't see how that changes next year with all if these contracts unless he blows the whole thing up. Including the manager.

[curt]

Should be an epic struggle for last place with the Fish this week.

[curt]

Another group who have disappeared are the Pollyannas who watched this crew fumble around for several months but insisted all was well, because this is a "second half club."

[bay_area_phan]

Woo-hoo!

[Chris Wheeler]

Goofy!

[bay_area_phan]

And I was just about to get on Cholly's case for burning one of his two viable pinch hitters as a pinch runner, thereby leaving himself with no one to pinch hit for Mayberry against a tough righty. It's an error he has made several time this year & it's an egregious one.

[bullit]

Kratz'n'jammer

[Conway Twitty]

This Paps guy pitches pretty quick. Where did he come from?

[MG]

curt - Their record is better this half since their pitching has been greatly improved. Offense has been pretty bad though and the defense has been mediocre at best.

clout - It is a summer Sunday in August on a team going nowhere. Not surprised the comments are really sparse.

[Bonehead]

Wiggy is simply coasting to retirement...has been all season.
$20MM is enough. He's too lazy and apathetic to even pretend to try.

[norbertods]

7 runs on 5 hits with 3 errors. A score line worthy of a Jayson Stark column.

[p to the p to the p]

Wiggy is simply coasting to retirement...has been all season.
$20MM is enough. He's too lazy and apathetic to even pretend to try.

Posted by: Bonehead | Sunday, August 12, 2012 at 04:50 PM

What a bonehead comment!

[clout]

MG: No surprise at all. In fact, that's what I just said. You do what "frontrunner" means, right?

[clout]

This is where we find out what Schierholtz is made of.

[clout]

This is where we find out what Dom is made of.

[clout]

This is where we find out what Mayberry is made of.

[Bonehead]

p-p-p
Haven't you been paying attention to Wig's ABs, fielding, and waistline this summer?

[clout]

Well. Now we know what they're made of.

[clout]

I'd pinch run.

[Luis]

Wiggy will be back with some team next year. He can still hit a few HR's, and someone will probably pick him up just for that. Just hope it isnt the Phils again.

[Meyer]

Kratzamadazzler

[kuvasz]

WTF? Again, stupid f#*king baseball.

[clout]

Bad decision by Kratz. Wiggy can still hit LHP. He should never face RHP, yet that's mostly what he does here.

[GBrettFan]

I'm not a frontrunner. I had a family birthday party.

I can't believe the Phillies caught up. When last I checked the score, they were behind 7-4 in the 8th, I think it was.

Gotta score now. Can't hold off STL offense forever esp. with our BP.

[GBrettFan]

What happened to the Kratz double? Did he make a baserunning mistake?

[GBrettFan]

Yes!!! I thought he'd be out for sure. Wow!

[clout]

Small ball!!!!

[GBrettFan]

That was great! I like Pierre. Good for Jimmy to get to 3B, too, as it turned out.

[GBrettFan]

I love Pierre's excitement. Must be a lot of fun for the team to come back. I like that they still have fun playing even though the games are "meaningless".

[bullit]

i'm so happy for juan. i want him here next year doing sarge's job.

[lolwut]

crushed that single to deep left center shortstop. great win.

[norbertods]

Good win. Let's go drink.

[Fatalotti]

Am I a frontrunner? Maybe to a bit of a degree. I watched the Eagles all through the late 90s when they were wretched. I've followed the Sixers very closely over the last half decade, even though I had no illusions they were going anywhere. And I don't really watch hockey, so...

As for the Phillies this year, I'd have watched a lot more games if it weren't for studying for my actuarial exams, but once they were out of legitimate contention, there is something about watching a team of old players, many of whom won't be here next year, or players coming back from injury that is not very appealing. In fact, now that Dom Brown is playing, I have a bit more of a reason to watch, as I'm legitimately interested in seeing if he can be a contributor at the major league level.

Not really been interested in watching the likes of Juan Pierre, Frandsen, Mayberry, a hobbled Howard and Kratz take meaningless at bats in a meaningless season.

[Fatalotti]

Very fun win, by the way.

[fooman]

It's ashame that Pierre has no spot on this team next year. He fits alot of niches that post season teams usually have on their roster.

[Iceman]

I wish I was a frontrunner. I've actually turned to BL more for comfort this year (you know, strength in numbers).

Their record after the break would actually be palatable if not for the fact that they were already 10+ games back.

[GBrettFan]

Highlights show some ugly defense.

[GBrettFan]

How did we win that game with 3 errors and only 7 hits? Guess we took advantage of opportunity, at least a few times.

[gobaystars!]

Missed most of the game but a few thoughts.
Big bomb by Kratz. Huge. He is earning a spot on this team next year. I like it and hope he keeps it up and isn't having a 2 month career.
Howard looks like his career is back on track. He is still obviously hobbled but he's hitting homers and his avg is creeping back up.
Juan Pierre should be an all-time favorite short lived Phillie.

[p to the p to the p]

p-p-p
Haven't you been paying attention to Wig's ABs, fielding, and waistline this summer?

Posted by: Bonehead | Sunday, August 12, 2012 at 05:09 PM

I see what any big boy who uses the big boy potty would see.....a player who is a marginal bench player who was pushed into a starter role for far too long. If his ability to excel in baseball is how we judge his character, then I guess all but a handful of people on this planet are of questionable character, huh?

[p to the p to the p]

I despised Juan Pierre when he was with the Marlins because he was such a pest. I really like him on the Phils and hope they keep him on the roster for the rest of the year if for no reason other than to be a positive influence on some young players. Again, he costs the Phils nothing so salary relief is not a concern. He would also get the Phils nothing in return. Keep him.

[Bonehead]

What I see in Wig (just my flimsy opinion based on observation) is a player who could be (and recently has been) playing a bit better, but no longer has the desire to make himself better. He's coasting to the end.

[MG]

Wigginton has been terrible this year. Offensive numbers have dipped and he been a butcher in the field. There is a reason he has been a bench fixture and non-entity the past month already.

Really surprised if he gets a guaranteed deal next deal next year from anyone.

[MG]

Cholly has definitely done a 180 on Kratz this past month. He was very enthusiastic about him after the game.

[davthom73]

And what is there to not be enthusiastic about? Manuel's complete non-use of Kratz for more than three weeks -- actually for almost a month while Kratz was active on the big league roster the entire time -- after Kratz had already demonstrated pinch-hitting home run power and an excellent throwing arm -- is not really excusable.

[Will Schweitzer]

Clout - posting or not posting on BL doesn't make anyone a front runner. It's just an internet blog, man. I stop by to read once a day, but frankly, there isn't a whole lot going on right now that's worth discussing that we all haven't said 100 times this season. At this point, it's just verbal masturbation.

[Bonehead]

Verbal is my second favorite kind

[Scott]

How did we win that game with 3 errors and only 7 hits?

GBrettFan: Don't let anybody here know it, as it would upset them, but statistics don't mean anything.

[Conway Twitty]

We traded last year's extra-inning hero (Valdez) for a scrub who pitched 2 scoreless extra-innings for his first ML win.

[can_of_corn]

RE: "Frontrunner"...I am more of a reader than "talker" but I'm still watching almost every game and reading every BL post. Just not much to say that hasn't already been said, and said a whole lot better than I could say it.

Some of the lack of activity may also be due to vacations. I personally check in to read BL when away, but it is much harder to type into a small iPhone.

Finally, I may be the only one, but of late, BL often causes Internet Explorer to stop working. (BL often is the only website that has this efffect. I work online much of the day, so I don't think it is my system.)

[clout]

Will: So you would say that the huge dropoff in posts is simply a coincidence? Or do you too not know the definition of frontrunner?

[Fatalotti]

Clout, do you consider the term frontrunner to be pejorative?

[clout]

Fatalotti: I'm pretty neutral on it. It describes a well known widespread phenomenon that is denied by posters on BL.

Hence the big dropoff in posts is described by the remaining posters here as due to summer vacation, family commitments, weather etc. and not the abandonment of interest in the team because it is losing.

[Scott]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

https://p.twimg.com/A0I5fPGCYAAw1wj.jpg

[MG]

Horst/Valdez trade

Horst had a really nice outing today. Had great command today and good fastball control. Did a really nice today working the outside corner on hitters with his fastball.

Got Holliday on a pitch that was knee high on the corner that is the kind of pitch a hitter just fouls off or hits a very weak grounder if they make contact.

Been surprised by how Horst has been able to locate his fastball on the outside corner this year. Also been surprised by his offspeed stuff. Articles on him when Horst was traded here said he had a mediocre slider and below grade changeup. Slider seems like it has been a bit better than advertised. Seemed closer to more of an organizational depth guy for a system that was really lacking LHP relievers.

Valdez has put up a line of .217/.246/.242 (.488 OPS or 31+ OPS) and has played poorly accordingly to every defense metric. Been better than Mini Mart but that isn't saying much. Basically looked like a 34-year old utility infielder who is going to be in AAA somewhere next year.

Even if Horst doesn't pitch quite as well down the stretch, he definitely has worked himself into the conversation for a roster spot next spring as the 2nd LHP reliever. Probably ahead of Diekman on the organizational depth chart due to Diekman's continued bouts with command issues.

One of the reasons to watch these games for next year besides Brown is the relievers (Schwimer, Horst, Lindblom).

[MG]

Even throw Rosenberg in that group too. In fact, if Rosenberg can get a bit more consistency on his slider I like his upside even a little more than Lindblom & Schwimer.

[MG]

Utley missed a few balls today that he used to turn into outs. Wonder if the Phils are going to consider moving him to LF next year just so they can get 120-130 GS out of him & keep his bat in the lineup.

Obviously has a lot more value playing 2B but wonder due to health concerns if they don't at least consider putting him in LF next year.

[Scott]

Did anyone else think Mike Schmidt showed more pure joy today launching a hot dog cannon then he ever displayed while playing baseball??

[Bonehead]

For all the new blood we hope to see for 2013, it really will only translate to a couple of roster spots:

The one opening in the SP rotation will probably be filled in house, or a dumpster dive spring training surprise (a RoLo, Elarton kind of guy)

6 of the 7 bullpen jobs are probably already in house.

4 of the 5 bench spots will probably come from Kratz, Nix, Schierholtz, Galvis, Mayberry.

One of the 3 lineup openings (3B, OF, OF) will probably be done cheaply from in house.

[bay_area_phan]

clout: Pointing out that there is a drop-off in posting when the Phillies are in last place is kind of like pointing out that there is a drop-off in swimmers at the local beach after a series of shark sightings. It's not exactly a bold or provocative observation.

[Fatalotti]

Or a drop-off in Schwimers during a winning season...

[NEPP]

Good win.

[NEPP]

A beautiful sunny day in mid-August? Not a tough choice to go out with my family instead of staying inside.

Oh, Cody Asche had another good day in Reading. He's been very solid offensively since the beginning of July.

[stocky vance]

Yep, Cody - is it premature to think he could be in Phillies pinstripes by 2014 or sometime in 2013?