Game chat: Phillies feed their veteran addiction

Placido Polanco replaces Kevin Frandsen, who played an incredible game Tuesday, when the Phillies play the third of four with the Reds.

Maybe I misread this, but Frandsen looked physically spent when they cut to a shot of him in the dugout following his second highlight reel defensive play Tuesday. So I'm not sure if that's behind Charlie Manuel's decision to go with Polanco tonight. If not, it's veteran loyalty; an addiction the Phils' probably need to break with their 36-year-old injury prone third baseman. Veterans are the crack cocaine of the Phillies, man. Meantime, Vance Worley searches for his first good start since Aug. 1. He's really been one of the weaker links of this team the second half of the season.

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Comments

[Stocky Vance]

WSG -- grand canyon -- & Lindbomb --> drew a picture of that in my mind
He probably couldn't ..

[NEPP]

UC needs to retire after this year. Rube & Co should figure out a way for him to go out with a little bit of dignity. He's an old tired man and we dont need a lame duck manager next year.

[mainerob]

@ Brooklyn Phillies: one "hones" his skills. One "homes" in on the target. Friendly correction. That's all.

[denny b.]

MG-

Agree on pitching Lindblom a 2nd inning. He hadn't pitched more then 1 inning since early July and only twice since June 1st. The last time he pitched multiple innings, he had an easy 1st inning and then gave up a solo HR to LH Jason Kubel.

Bruce is the only LH hitter you have to worry about in their lineup. And he has traditionally had trouble against LH pitching.

In a 1 run game in the 8th inning, you can't let their #1 power threat hit against a RH pitcher there. Or at the least, he needs to be pitched VERY carefully. Especially with a very old looking Rolen hitting behind him.

Just bad managing there...again.

And could Mini Mart at least pretend to steal a base? Chapman has no move to 1st base. According to the Reds broadcasters, you can steal against him anytime you want. Take off and at least try it. The chances of getting an XBH against Chapman are slim-to-none.

[R]

"I love Chase Utley, but the notion that he was ever as good as Brandon Phillips defensively is just wishful thinking."

Hahaha. Utley has always been better defensively than Brandon Phillips. But, hey, you saw a nifty play or two and that's what matters.

[mainerob]

Lindblom joined the Phils as advertised: flyball power pitcher with a tendency to give up home runs.

Perfect for CBP. Great pickup for Victorino. Martin does look good however.

[NEPP]

Its not that Lindblom sucks because of the 2nd inning, its more of the fact that with him, its pretty much just a matter of time that he implodes.

[MG]

denny b - It is just frustrating to watch Cholly manage the bullpen late in games. Has been since he became the manager here.

Yeah he doesn't have much talent back there but he has both Valdes and Schwimer available to pitch the 8th.

[denny b.]

Sorry R, but Phillips is and always has been a superior defender to Utley.

Phillips has much more range and throws much better.

When healthy, there is no better right-side of the infield in baseball then Phillips and Votto from a defensive standpoint.

And unfortunately, the right side of the Phils infield is seriously lacking on the defensive side.

[R]

"The official scorer actually credited Rollins with 2 SB last night...despite the fact that the 2nd one was by far pitcher indifference.

What the hell happened to scoring properly?"

Dude, they never score it indifference when it's a one-run game, nor should they, since it probably wasn't.

[NEPP]

Ethan Martin was the real value in that deal...hopefully he lives up to his original upside that got him drafted in the middle of the 1st round.

[Meyer]

Maybe Grandpa Amaro was Cuban?

[mainerob]

Right on the mark, R.

[MG]

Lindblom has been awful so far but the Phils did need to pick up another RHP reliever for next year with Stutes questionable status and Herndon already out until June.

Even if Lindblom is nothing more than a marginal reliever and Martin develops into a backend starter for a few years, it wasn't a bad deal for the Phils.

Only way it is a terrible deal is if neither Lindblom/Martin contributes in any way to the Phils over the next few years.

[CN]

Cespedes: 89 G, 330 AB, 100 H, 27 BB, 44 R, .303/.365/.512, 16 HR, 60 RBI, 17 2B, 2 3B, 74 K, 12-15 SB

Soler (Rk-A Combined): 23 G, 89 AB, 25 H, 9 BB, 18 R, .281/.354/.461, 4 HR, 19 RBI, 4 2B, 0 3B, 16 K, 9-9 SB

Why do the Phillies not want to spend the money on these guys? Lord knows it's not because they're afraid of wasting money.

[mainerob]

Mexican mother and Cuban father, Meyer.

[Stocky Vance]

So far so good with Ethan Martin

But it's still way to early to make a realistic judgement..

[NEPP]

Since 2005 (Utley's first full season), Utley has dominated pretty much every single defensive metric.

Phillips looks far slicker when he makes plays and turns DPs though...so on the sight test, Phillips looks superior.

[denny b.]

MG-

I thought Lindblom looked very good in the 7th. He made Ludwick look bad, with a fastball and then a hard slider.

But again, he's been basically a 1 inning guy since mid April. The last time the Dodgers tried to squeeze a 2nd inning out of him, the exact same thing happened as tonight. A 1 run game became a 2 run game when a LH power hitter took him deep.

With Cholly and Dubee, who knows what they are thinking. Last night, they had Aumont ready to pitch the 9th in a 1 run game. Tonight, did he even get up? Schwimer was pitching regularly there for a few weeks and now he has gone AWOL. Bastardo went almost 2 weeks between appearances. Deikman was supposed to be primarily a LOOGY and he rarely was used in that situation when he was here and then lost his confidence once he got thrown into some bad situations.

Just puzzling, what they are thinking many nights.

[DH Phils]

MG: I agree. I doubt Victorino had much value, and I think people are overreacting to 8 bad innings. The peripherals (and traditional stats) over a larger sample size suggest he is an average middle reliever.

[NEPP]

FWIW, the Phillies supposedly made strong offers for Soler and Cespedes...they were just outbid.

No idea about Chapman as I dont recall all the rumors back when he was a FA.

[Meyer]

Ah-so Main. Wicked combo.

[denny b.]

When does Chapman get his 50 game suspension?

One silver-lining...we probably won't see him tomorrow night. We'll get Broxton in a save situation instead.

Give Arroyo the credit tonight. He just kept throwing strikes and the Phils pounded the ball into the ground all night. Arroyo can do that to you. He can also throw BP some nights too.

[gobaystars!]

at the game tonight:
Good crowd but not the most exciting game so not much chance for them to get into it.
Brown is a ballplayer. He lost that one ball badly but made 2 excellent throws and a great diving catch in addition to his bomb.
Arroyo is usually a guy they hit. I don't know what was up tonight.
Rally late but not enough. Phillies have shown a good bit of fight late.
Utley looked over matched vs Chapman. A lot of people do.
Howard's ball looked like something live.
That's that.

[mainerob]

I never get excited about a Latin American high level prospect, because in my 70 years on this earth, I don't recall a single signing on the level of a Chapman, Cespedes or Soler. So when I read that so and so is on the Phillies radar, I don't pay any attention, because it will never...and I mean never...materialize in a signing.

The same is true of any foreign hot commodity. The next time the Phillies sign a Japanese hot-shot will be the first time.

This organization has always held up the rear in any race that involves innovation of any sort. The most glaring omission was getting on board with African-American players. Along with the Red Sox, an abysmal record. John Kennedy was the first one to play for the Phillies making his debut 10 years after Jackie Robinson. He played a grand total of five games for the Phillies. They were half a generation behind the Dodgers and, as a result, lost out on a lot of talent in the 50s. Quite an embarrassment!

[mainerob]

Correction: Cubans are foreigners. I meant Asians.

[denny b.]

Been pretty critical of Ruben's "big" trades in the past few years. A few of them have been huge bombs.

But I think he did pretty well this summer. Getting Simon and Lino for Thome was pretty solid.

Getting Joseph and Schierholtz for Pence was good. Not good, once you consider the haul Houston got from us for Pence a year ago. But good when you ignore that.

Getting Martin and Lindblom for Vic was about as good as you could expect to get back.

Getting O'Sullivan (who won in relief tonight with 2 scoreless frames for Clearwater) for Blanton was terrific value.

I wish he could have gotten something for Pierre at the deadline. And it would be nice to get anything for Polly and Wiggy before September 1st.

But the trades that have been made, I think, look pretty good to me.

[lorecore]

Its 10:30 and my DOM boner has not retracted. Anyone know the timeframe before I go to the hospital? I can't tell if it was the HR or the cannon arm so I can't tell the first sign of arousement.

[NEPP]

Ichiro is pretty much the only Japanese signing to live up to his billing. Kuroda has settled in as a decent #3 but nowhere near the star he was in Japan...Darvish has gotten destroyed this year after being the Japanese version of Strasburg in Japan.

[Fatalotti]

bbref stats for Utley and Phillips since 2005

dWAR
Year: Utley/Phillips

2005: 2.6/NA
2006: 2.1/1.2
2007: 2.1/1.6
2008: 3.5/0.6
2009: 1.6/1.4
2010: 1.0/1.0
2011: 0.3/1.0

Rdrs/yr (Defensive runs saved above average per 1200 innings)

2005: 20/NA
2006: 16/-7
2007: 19/8
2008: 26/13
2009: 11/2
2010: 20/9
2011: 9/5
2012: 6/9

Rtot/yr (Total Fielding Runs Above Avg per 1,200 Innings)

2005: 11/-16
2006: 6/-4
2007: 8/
2008: 7/-3
2009: 7/-3
2010: 8/0
2011: 12/1
2012: -4/3

And UZR/150

2005: 17.4/NA
2006: 7.6/-2.7
2007: 14.9/17.2
2008: 19.3/13.0
2009: 12.2/4.0
2010: 12.9/9.7
2011: 14.5/12.5
2012: 7.9/7.2

I just don't see how you can look at all of this without either admitting that Utley has been, on the whole, the better defender. Unless there are other metrics I missed which show Phillips in a better light than Utley.

[aksmith]

denny b. - I would agree that Rube has done as well as could possibly be expected in all of those trades. All I was saying is that Lindblom may be young, and he may be cost controlled, but I don't see him being a longterm Phillie because he's simply not very good.

[Fatalotti]

The Vic deal was proably made worse because they took on the dead weight that is Lindblom. CBP doesn't augment HRs, but it doesn't suppress them either. He will only be successful in places that suppress HRs. And if Dodger stadiums didn't do the trick for him, what stadium will?

[mainerob]

Disagree about Lindblom, aksmith. Despite the homers, he has a very live arm and adding another off-speed pith will help immeasurably, IMO. I'm not giving up on him.

[aksmith]

mainerob - Live arm? He has a straight fastball at pretty standard relief velocity. He has a fringy slider that tends to hang. That's it. That's why he's not a starter. He could never develop a workable third pitch.

I know we all want him to do well. We want him to become a valuable piece of next year's winning team. But the Phillies could get the same production from countless other fringy righthanders mulling around baseball in the offseason for the vet minimum or on minor league contracts.

Maybe he could develop a third pitch, but he hasn't been able to so far.

[gobaystars!]

I wouldn't say Ichiro is the only guy to live up to his billing.
Lately expectations have been more realistic. For example Kosuke Fukudome was a bust but Norichika Aoki has given the Brewers about what people expected (if not a little more). Sure he was much better in Japan but nobody thought what he did there would translate here. That said, Darvish is under performing a bit but it's early with him and he's still only 26 which is relatively young for a Japanese import.
On the same note, I wouldn't call someone like So Taguchi a failure. He wasn't expected to be a star and he had a solid career. Nor would I say Okajima or or Kazuhiro Sasaki busts. Kaz had a few excellent years as the Mariner's closer. I think the age at which some guys come over from Japan leads to shorter careers and thus we see them in a different light.

[lorecore]

Count me in on lindblom, I think he can be better than all of the phillies relief prospects outside of a healthy defratus. I also think he can out pitch kk as a 5th starter but admit that's just wishful thinking on my part.

[Dickie Thong]

the Phillies have never felt the need to spend big on Latin American or Cuban players

Philadelphia Phillies Land Phenom Carlos Tocci with Large Signing Bonus

[mainerob]

I'm with you, ak. No argument, but I will say that when he was acquired by Amaro, the expectation/hope was that he could slot into the 8th inning role, so the scouts saw something that we have yet to discover.

[gobaystars!]

To say nothing of Hideo Nomo who was a legit front of the rotation pitcher for a time.

[ODB]

gobay just loves the Japanese because of how efficiently they congregate in large metropolitan areas

[gobaystars!]

I do admire that (while admitting they have no choice in the matter as it is geography) but I don't admire how rural citizens are overrepresented in Japanese politics. It's even worse than in America. Mind boggling in a way that such an urban country like Japan would give a disproportionate amount of power to people in the country.

[Meyer]

Thankfully America is different. One needs only to make a trip to rural Ohio, Missouri and Florida to realize where the political reality lies. I just returned from a trip to rural Missouri while travelling through local radio Ohio and I would swear that that rural America also has some political clout.

[Iceman]

I've actually been relatively encouraged by these games so far.

I believe the Phils are 2-3 players away from competing with a team like the Reds, and with the lineup they are running out there (especially Monday and tonight), the fact that they are hanging with them just reinforces my belief that those players will make the difference.

If they can get a split tomorrow with Hamels v. Cueto, it's a job well done. Again, take a look at the lineups.

[Bubba]

The usage of Lindblom , while others in the BP sit idle, makes me wonder if Rube has given Charlie orders to use him often and see what we have in him.

I hate to jump to an overall conclusion on a relatively small number of outings, but Charlie has shown a unusual willingness to keep trotting him out there for a non veteran pitcher having repeated bad outings.

A simpler explanation is that Lindblom is the first RH reliever on Charlie's lineup card and he's going down the card in that order.

[gobaystars!]

Oh yeah, America has some bad overrepresentation issues as well. Japan has been basically rigged for a long time to allow the LDP (Liberal Democratic Party-conservatives) to hold down a disproportionate number of seats in parliament (The Diet). In recent years the DJP (Democratic Party of Japan-liberal centrists) has take over as the majority party but the LDP still is more clout than popular support.

Wasn't that an irrelevant late post-game post?

Anyway, Dom Brown looks good. I wish Pence was never acquired and Brown could have gotten some extra on the job training.

[CN]

Since he was mentioned...

Tocci (GCL): 36 G, 90 AB, .300/.354/.322, 27 H, 6 BB, 18 K, 0 HR, 9 RBI, 2 2B, 0 3B, 9-11 SB, .980 FLD% (49 PO, 1 A, 1 E)

[Jack]

I guess Dom Brown is good now?

[Meyer]

Dom Brown has proved himself to be the equal to a Pence.

[Fatalotti]

Jack, when Dom Brown gets his ISO over .100 this year, we'll talk.

Or when he gets his career ISO over .150.

[Fatalotti]

Dom Brown has proved himself to be the equal to a Pence.

Posted by: Meyer | Thursday, August 23, 2012 at 12:15 AM

Going to assume this is a joke. For all of Pence's failings (and he has lots), he's always been an above average hitter who posts WAR totals in the 3.2-4.7 range. That's an above average player. Not a great one, but a good one. Dom Brown has a long way to go before he is the equal to Pence.

[Fatalotti]

I stand corrected: Brown's ISO for the year skyrocketed to .115 after tonight's power display, and his wRC+ now sits at 110. He's officially on his way to being an All Star.

But if one good game can do that for him, obviously a bad one can bring him right back down.

Let's see him maintain it for a while before we proclaim he's arrived.

[bay_area_phan]

Are we forgetting Hideki Matsui? He may not have hit as many homeruns here as he did in Japan, but he was an elite player for a good 6 or 7 years. Takashi Saito was another guy who was quite good.

[Mini Mart]

Cholly told me if I am not in CF, I will be doing the catching. With Chooch out, he needs a power bat behind the plate.

[Dragon]

Next year: Dom Brown, yes - Frandson, yes - Kratz, yes - Lindblom, no - Mayberry, only if we can't find something better.

With regards to tonight's game: Arroyo is one of those guys you don't want to underestimate because, now and then, he is capable of cranking up a good one.

[aksmith]

I see people having a Lindblom wish list. He is NOT a starter. He was tried there and he doesn't have either the stamina or the pitches for it. He is a marginal major leaguer. That is what he is. We can hope and wish for more, but we have to face it. Some players are what they look like. At best he is mediocre. He will dazzle you one day, then make you vomit in your mouth for the next two. He is not an eighth inning guy, never never never.

And I see someone brought up Tocci as the big Latin signing. He looks like he may be a player. Somewhat makes up for the loss of Santana in the Pence deal. But while signing a kid for 759,000 may be a big deal for the Phillies, it is not a big deal for any other club.

This was the last year a team could get away with a big signing bonus for Latin American/Cuban/Dominican players and not have it count against their allotment. And the Phillies whiffed yet again. A few more million here or there in an offer, as in Soler, and they could have saved themselves a bunch of money down the road. But once again, penny wise and dollar foolish.

Here's my feeling. If you look at the major league payroll, the Phillies are big spenders. But they have never been big spenders in the draft or on foreign players. And when they had the chance to go all in on a major talent, such as Chapman, or Soler, they consistently "just miss." That is a pattern, not an accident. And you can bet that the Phillies were one of the big forces behind the cap on spending on these players, as well as the slotting system for the draft. They have never wanted to compete on these fields with the Red Sox and Yankees, and now they've gotten their wish. But the funny part? They've been losing out to lesser payroll teams who were looking for longterm bargains on players like Chapman and Cespedes. And they lost out to a woeful org on Soler. Not exactly like losing talent to NY and Boston.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I'm not going to go political but, Ohio is not a "rural" state. It is probably the 7th or 8th most populous state in the union and, has more/ larger cities than PA, save Philadelphia, including Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Toledo, Dayton, Akron, Youngstown, etc. Bitch about representation of the western territories, if you want to tear down the bicameral, federal system, but, let's not invent facts.
Hell, if you want to bitch, Puerto Rico is probably in the middle of the pack in terms of 'state' population but, its representation in Congress relies on migrants in the Bronx and Reading, PA.

Anyway, I didn't watch tonight's game. softballdoubleheader, bar, futurama, daily show - lots of stuff seeming more interesting lately. It's a good thing.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

"Are we forgetting Hideki Matsui?"

Glaring oversight.

History shows again and again how nature points up the folly of man . . .

Matsui.

[denny b.]

"Again, take a look at the lineups."

Without Votto (arguably the best hitter in the NL), Cincy's lineup isn't all that imposing.

They have Drew Stubbs (he of the high .220's average with just 30 RBI's for the year) hitting 2nd. They have Rolen, who has been late on about every fastball in this series, hitting 5th.

They don't have a true leadoff hitter (although neither do the Phils). Hanigan is a weak-hitting catcher and (without Votto) they are overly right-handed dominant with very little LH hitting anywhere. And their bench? Mediocre, at best. Miguel Cairo and Wilson Valdez are two of their 5 bench guys remember.

The keys to the Reds team have been how 2 rookies (Cosart and Frazier) have blossomed into top-notch players and the strength of their bullpen. And the fact that they have feasted on bad teams for the past 2 months. They have beaten up on the teams that they should have been beating up on.

In a very flawed National League, they might have enough (with Votto) to get to the WS. But about 4 or 5 other teams can say the exact same thing. The difference between a Cincy or a Washington or a Atlanta or a San Francisco? Very little. Will make for a interesting October, that is for sure.

[The Hook]

Quinn 2 for 2 three walks and 3 sb.

[Fatalotti]

denny, Votto is the best hitter in baseball. I think there are others that can make a case, (Trout, Kemp, Braun, Cabrera...), but Votto is, in my book at least, the very best. So, yes, if a team loses not only their best hitter, but the best in the business, they become a lot less imposing. But with Votto, I think they are probably the clear favorites in the NL.

They have a pretty good 1-2 punch in their rotation with Cueto/Latos with a decent enough back of the rotation (although i think Bailey and Arroyo are simply outperforming their true talent right now, but sometimes you need that to win a championship...the 2008 Phillies definitely got some overperformance). They have 4 hitters having fantastic seasons (Votto, Bruce, Ludwick and Frazier), and Hanigan is a league average hitter, which, for a catcher, is great.

They are certainly carrying the dead weight of Drew Stubbs, who, other than a pretty good SB total of 28 (with only 6 CS) has been pretty abysmal in every other facet of the game.

And of course, there is that bullpen, which is the best in the NL right now. ATL comes close, but Venters hasn't been nearly as good as in years past. Right now, I'd take Marshall/Chapman over any other combo in the game.

Put all that together, and I don't see how there are any other teams that would be the favorites over them in the NL, and with Votto, Cueto and that bullpen, they'll have at least 50/50 odds in any WS matchup they play.

[gobaystars!]

If the Reds do make it to the World Series, does Dusty Baker start to get some respect as a manager?

[Fatalotti]

gobay, I won't. I think it's quite possible, and happens more often than not, that teams either win in spite of their managers bumbling ineptitude or win regardless of who's managing them.

[Will Schweitzer]

I'm not calling out anyone in particular, but it seems as if the general consensus is that we're just about ready to give up on Worley and Mayberry.

I'm not expecting either to be a perennial all-star, but having a cost controlled 4th starter and corner OF/backup 1B with pop in his bat is not a bad thing. It beats paying the money for a Geoff Jenkins/Joe Blanton type to fill those roles.

I'm chalking 2012 up to a sophomore jinx.

[cut_fastball]

The prima facie case for a complete team rebuild:

David Murphy: For Phillies' next Retro Night, how about 2008?

To wit:

The biggest questions about the offense involve the players who are not trying out. While Jimmy Rollins continues to provide power and defense at a premium position, his production has not been that of a leadoff hitter on a contender. In the loss to the Reds, he went 0-for-4, lowering his batting average to .238 and his on-base percentage to .297. Chase Utley and Ryan Howard continue to improve, but is a month enough time to know exactly what to expect out of them in 2013? The two sluggers combined to go 0-for-6 with two strikeouts against Arroyo, a starting pitcher they have historically battered.

I know RAJ has “a plan”, but this team has so many holes that I believe it’s imperative that he flips at least one 8-figure contract (Cliff Lee, please?) for a solid, young position player and a prospect. Let’s get young; get the 2- or 3-years of losses out of the way and be a team on the rise again.

Yes, that’s probably not possible. Yet, after last night’s display, it’s clear. Time to start over.

[Iceman]

dennyb- I actually meant look at the lineups the Phils are running out there, which are half filled with players that won't be starting (or even on the team) next year.

[Fatalotti]

Wait, why are we giving up on Vance Worley?

He's been injured this year, and still has a 100 ERA+, is making $495 K and isn't arbitration eligible until 2014. Complete lunacy to even consider the notion of giving up on him.

As for Mayberry, he's been given ample opportunities, and he'll once again have a chance to win a 4th/5th OF spot next ST, but he simply needs to get on base, since his corner OF defense and backup CF defense isn't good enough to justify his paltry hitting ability.

And I don't have to chalk anything up to a sophomore jinx/slump/bad juju...it's baseball. Most players in the league are going to fail, or revert to league average players. A league average pitcher at the backend of your bullpen (Worley as it stands right now) making the league minimum has LOTS of value. We'll see about Mayberry.

[Fatalotti]

cut, after they signed Hamels to that mega-deal, they have no choice but to try to sap as much out of this core as they can. Re-upping Hamels like that, and then immediately starting a rebuild process would be dumb. They are going to try to contend next year, as they should.

[Fatalotti]

Meant "at the backend of your rotation" in regards to Worley from two posts ago.

[lorecore]

It looked like the Reds' no-doubles-defense saved Chapman a blown save last night. LF was playing on the warning track, only way he was going to get to Howard's liner was to be that deep.

[lorecore]

Mayberry's plus qualities are that he can hit vs LHP for power, and plays a good corner OF.

Unfortunately for him, LHP only make up about 30% of the league and corner OF is one of the least important positions to have quality defense in.

Cons outweigh the pros pretty heavily. If you need to fill a 5th OF spot, then he's surely a candidate, but not much else.

[RK]

Fat: "Rebuild would be dumb. They are going to try to contend next year."
You have a good point there, signing Hamels to a big contract begs the question where is the rest of the team to make it happen?

The idea that this team, even a healthy version (a stretch given the age of many of these guys)could come back and win it is "fan fiction".
These guys (utley, Howard, Rollins even Chooch) have seen their best years.
Its nice to wish but the handwriting has been on the wall for some time now.
The question remains what was RAJ thinking when he spent the money on Hamels? What is his plan? Does he have a plan?

[lorecore]

RK: Ruben re-signed Cole Hamels during his 28 age season. Thats exactly the kind of thing you are complaining about they need to do more of, isnt it?

[Fatalotti]

RK, there are certainly question marks and there are going to be difficulties in putting together a team that can stay healthy enough and productive enough to contend for the division next year, but regardless, after signing Hamels to that deal, going into a rebuild in the first couple years is simply out of the question.

[Bonehead]

It does often seem like Rube does not have a coherent plan.

But I am fully on board with one last hard push in 2013 with this group.

[cut_fastball]

Fata -- You're absolutely correct. I was just... well, I really don't know why I posted that.

There's a "sound bite" that I absolutley despise. Regardless, here goes:

"It is what it is."

[RK]

Not complaining at all about signing Cole and on this site I complimented the FO for sending the message we want a contending team . But the question remains what is the rest of the plan. It is not realistic to expect our vets to do significantly better next year.
Utley has been in decline since his 2008-9 peak years. It is not reasonable to expect him to come back to those levels again. His value is maximized for the AL and the Phils should be able to get good value for him.
Rollins is serviceable but basically over rated and I think we all agree he sucks at leadoff. He is lieklyto repeat this year's production (plus or minus 10%).
Chooch had a breakout year and we all love him I would love to see a continuation of his current production but it is an awful lot to expect from a guy who has never produced on that level before. I am fine with him but frankly I sure hope we retain Kratz who seems to have shown that he really is major league material but for some reason like Ibanez he couldn't find his way until he turned 30. I think a full year of Kratz and Chooch is very promising.
Howard is signed to such a big and long contract it's not clear what if anything can be done here. I think he can be a great player but he will need Hamels psychiatrist or something. Mainly I think he needs someone to teach him how to read pitchers. But he is staying.
So on further thought Fat is right that the bulk of this team comes back but without trading Utley and getting a significant for him, specifically a bonafide 3rd basemen I don't think this team can compete.

[jbird]

If only we could find a way to give more political clout to the cities. I mean think of how glorious our future would be if we could just get the whole country to be governed as efficiently as Detroit. . . . I mean Baltimore. . . . I mean Washington, DC. . . . I mean . . . . um. . . . New Orleans?

Sometime look at the red-blue breakdown of a presidential election map by county. It's pretty much just the cities and an immediate suburb or two. Democrats have won the presidency in 3 of the last 5 national elections. I think cities are doing just fine.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Code alert. "Cities"=___________?

[Iceman]

The team has been OK after trading two of their best offensive players away. If they plan on adding through FA, how is it hard to see them competing?

[jbird]

Cody Asche went 0-3 last night. He's dead to me.

[jbird]

Bed's Beard: an incorporated municipality usually larger than a town and remarkable for its densely populated urban core?

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I'm just looking forward to 2016, since Jack said the Phils won't compete the next 3 years.

[RK]

For me the answer to our prayers is in Boston-Middlebrooks-but we have nothing to give them for him. Ortiz is DH so no room for Utley and Pedroia is at 2nd. and they have no solution for third after Middlebrooks.
Texas on theother hand has the much admired Olt maybe something can be done there.

[Fatalotti]

A polite request to cool the political discourse. I personally hate politics, and I hope to not have to wade through it too often when I come to Beerleaguer.

[Fatalotti]

New thread.

[Jim]

Charlie's explanation of playing Polanco to see what he's got? Why, we know he's not going to be back next year, so why do you need to know?