Game chat: Cards in town as Lieberthal immortalized

Mike Lieberthal will be inducted into the Phillies Wall of Fame tonight before the Cardinals and Phillies open a weekend set at 7:05. Former Phillie Kyle Lohse and Roy Halladay are slated.

Beerleaguer: Lieberthal's "homegrown" era never lived up to "home-spun" hype, but crack open the Phillies' media guide and he's right at the top of most franchise catching categories, well ahead of the pace maintained by fan favorite Carlos Ruiz, who will also be on the wall someday. A two-time All-Star, he's the all-time leader in games caught (1,139) as well as home runs and hits. If ruinous knee injuries hadn't derailed his career, right in his prime, he would have produced much more. Even so, he enjoyed a very productive 14-year career, 13 with the Phillies, finishing with a career OPS of .783. Not shabby. He's the third backstop to be honored on the Wall of Fame, joining Bob Boone and Darren Daulton. One can make an educated case that he had a better career than either one, even if he's less beloved.

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Comments

[Corn]

Schierholtz starting in CF. 1st game in CF of career.

[J. Weitzel]

Weird to see a player I routinely bitched about at the beginning of Beerleaguer make it onto the Wall of Fame nine years later.

[NEPP]

Tells you a lot about the "standards" of our Wall of Fame.

[e]

Nice of Kevin Stocker to clear his busy schedule

[NEPP]

Also nice that the local Safeway gave him the night off...

[Dickie Thong]

Should have picked Mike Mussina instead.

[aksmith]

Offense from a catcher is nice. But he has to take control of the pitching staff. Boone, Dalton and Chooch all did and do that. Lieby was not the take charge type of guy you need back there. Nice guy. Nice enough player if he'd been anything but a catcher. But not a "wall of fame" type of player.

This merely points out how bereft of talent the Phillies have been for a large part of their century plus of baseball.

[bay_area_phan]

Not that I have anything against Mike Lieberthal, whom I always liked and who is as deserving of Wall of Fame honors as any other catcher in Phillies history. But when you see these Phillie Wall-of-Famers introduced one after another, and you stop and realize that the honor is reserved for Phillies icons, it really hits you with full force just how awful this franchise has been over its 129-year history. I mean, I'm down with Mike Schmidt and Steve Carlton and Greg Luzinski and a few others. But Juan Samuel? Tony Taylor? Bob Boone? Daren Daulton? If these guys represent the greatest Phillies of the last 129 years, I couldn't possibly be more underwhelmed.

[GTown_Dave]

Note that it's a Wall of Fame, not a Wall of Most Talented. Considering how much time I alone spent complaining about the guy -- coining the name "LOBerthal" was one of my finer moments -- it's not an entirely inappropriate choice.

[MG]

One of the things that always gets overlooked is how underwhelming Lieberthal's numbers were in the minors before he came up.

Remember a lot of the talk about how small he was, unnecessary reach in the draft, and doubt he would be a quality starting catcher.

All things considered, he had a quality career here.

[Chesty Morgan]

How long before Cholly puts Schmidt and Maddox in tonight?

[GTown_Dave]

"Lieberthal Stumbles Accepting Wall of Fame Award, Injures Knee"

Honestly, none of us would have been surprised.

[Edmundo]

More like the Wall of Cromulence. Bad teams and their fans tend to blame their best players for the problems of the team.

[bay_area_phan]

15 years from today, I expect that Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, Roy Halladay, and Ryan Howard will all reconvene at Citizen's Bank Park to commemorate the induction of the newest Wall of Fame member: Michael Martinez.

[MG]

Always kind of wondered too if at some point Lieberthal didn't roid up/take something to add more muscle once he got to the MLB.

Guy who had almost no power at Reading in '92 (2 HRs in 309 ABs) at 20 and was really tiny. Maybe 175 pounds at the time.

Lieberthal had little power until '97 when he suddenly hit 20 HRs in 455 ABs at 25. He had hit just 28 HRs in 2081 ABs before that in his minor league/major league career.

[Dickie Thong]

He made over $53M during his MLB career.

[coolhandluke]

All the negatives are a bit rude and over the top.

[coolhandluke]

Remember it's the wall of fame,not the hall of fame.

[GBrettfan]

I wouldn't mind if Charlie put Schmidt and Maddox into the game for an inning.

[The Hook]

Really starting to worry about some of the young guys getting a lot of attention in AA, and lower. Rube might be excited and trade some for veron wells or some pile of crap. With jon p in aaa and wright biddle and if may ever gets it together the future staff looking pretty nice with Cole and lee anchoring it. May and colvin might be better suited for pen if they can't lock it in soon. Just like we are starting to develop a few pitchers that will allow us to fill in spots. The more I read about bourne the more I want to tell rube foget about it!!!!! I would rather get upton or melky. I prefer Bj with age and sPeed and just a new place might be better suited. I know rube wants a third guy. Let's not go crazy rube. If u just want d go with Inge or that halo guy.

[bay_area_phan]

"Remember it's the wall of fame,not the hall of fame."

I get that. But Juan Samuel?

[GTown_Dave]

Samuel shouldn't even make a Wall of Cromulence. Never enjoyed watching him play.

[coolhandluke]

Samuel was a better player then coach thats for sure

[GTown_Dave]

Samuel was a better player then coach thats for sure

Talk about damning w/ faint praise. That's like saying Katie Holmes is a better actress than Kristen Stewart. Or vice versa.

[Dickie Thong]

Way to run out that grounder JStroll.

[coolhandluke]

Hmmm Loesh is in his walk year

[NEPP]

I wouldn't give Lohse a big contract...this year screams fluke.

[coolhandluke]

and here we go

[Stocky Vance]

BEL. TRON

Halliday -- a hanger huh?

[coolhandluke]

big time hanger right down the middle

[GTown_Dave]

I figure it's only a matter of time before TMac's boobs make the Wall of Fame.

[coolhandluke]

right next to Wheels rug

[Chesty Morgan]

Schierholz looking pretty damn smooth on that Yadier pop up. CF problem: solved!

[bay_area_phan]

If you read Juan Samuel's profile at the Phillies' website, you learn that, before he joined the Phillies' coaching staff, he worked as the Orioles' "infield instructor." That's kind of like a drug addict hiring Charlie Sheen to be his sobriety coach.

[coolhandluke]

wow did you see RH flying around first for an easy double

[coolhandluke]

downtown Dominic Brown

[GBrettfan]

This is hilarious:

Mark Ratcliff ‏@AmishFlyers66
Pat thought they said "Will you carry a Babe?" "Sure!" #oops RT .@lesliegudel Totally! RT @bg527 was Pat uncomfortable holding that baby?!

[MG]

'First time in a long time the Phils are experimenting in August' . . . that statement is loaded with all kinds of innuendo.

[MG]

Wheels feeling a little randy tonight.

[coolhandluke]

wouldn't schneider have been a better choice catching tonite?

[mm]

not to divert away from the game but to try and talk about how bad Lieberthal was handling a staff, please name one good pitcher besides Curt Schilling that Lieberthal caught during his career in Philadelphia because i certainly don't remember one?

[bay_area_phan]

"wouldn't schneider have been a better choice catching tonite?"

Why? Schneider is NEVER a better choice to catch.

[MG]

coolhandluke - Yes. Schneider is 4-13 with 1 HR and 3 2Bs vs Lohse

[Chris Wheeler]

Whatever!

[bay_area_phan]

mm: And all these Phillie pitchers turned into superstars when Liberthal wasn't catching them?

[MG]

Paul Byrd is one guy who instantly comes to mind who was notably better after he left Philly.

[Clay Dalrymple]

Why is nix buried on the bench?

[MG]

Curious to see what Phils' starters were with Lieberthal behind the plate and Pratt. Always thought Pratt was a slightly better defensive catcher who called a better game.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: And then there's Randy Wolf, Brett Myers, Vicente Padilla, and Robert Person, who all had some of their best seasons with Lieberthal as catcher. It kind of leads one to suspect either that Lieberthal was just fine at calling games or that there really isn't a huge difference in game-calling skills from one catcher to another.

[coolhandluke]

JPOP

[MG]

Schilling ERA:

Lieberthal: 3.27 in 94 G
Pratt: 2.01 in 7 G

Myers:

Lieberthal: 4.54 in 109 G
Pratt: 3.70 in 22 G

Wolf:

Lieberthal: 4.34 in 136 G
Pratt: 3.25 in 16 G

Person:

Lieberthal: 4.33 in 68 G
Pratt: 2.23 in 5 G

Padilla:

Lieberthal: 3.68 in 103 G
Pratt: 4.80 in 27 G

Millwood:

Lieberthal: 4.44 in 45 G
Pratt: 4.09 in 16 G

Duckworth:

Lieberthal: 5.59 in 33 G
Pratt: 4.34 in 29 G

Daal:

Lieberthal: 5.08 in 12 G
Pratt: 7.59 in 4 G

Those numbers don't exactly paint Lieberthal in a favorable light.

[MG]

More vintage Halladay tonight. Best curveball since he has come off the DL.

[Jack]

Its almost like Roy Halladay isn't a terrible pitcher.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: Agreed. They don't. But to really get a read on whether there was a meaningful difference between the 2, I'd want to know the 2 catchers' overall numbers for all pitchers.

Must admit, I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to catcher's ERA.

[MG]

BAP - I am too. Just surprised by those numbers.

Always forget that in between Daulton and Lieberthal the Phils had a pretty good year of Santiago in '96.

Phils have generally had pretty good catching though over the past ~20 years. Daulton/Santiago/Lieberthal/Chooch. Not a bad list of starters. Even some of their backups have been decent including Pratt and Coste.

[MG]

More important to have speed to get a good jump to play CF. Sarge is in rare form tonight.

Earlier he said you need your legs to drive the ball.

[MG]

I would be pretty surprised if this Cards team doesn't overtake the Pirates by the end of Sept.

[Jack]

MG: Agreed. I would be shocked if the Cards didn't make the playoffs.

[MG]

Howard is still really shaking anytime he has to throw to his right. Been a weakness of his since he came up & never really improved it.

[bay_area_phan]

Sort off off topic, but it's kind of funny that we've got a GM who valued Laynce Nix so much that he gave him a 2-year deal, and we have a manager who values Nix so little that he has resorted to no fewer than 3 different alternatives (Pierre, Schierholtz, Mayberry against RHP) during the course of the season.

While giving Nix a 2-year deal was ridiculous, the idea that flavor-of-the-week Nate Schierholtz is a better platoon option might well be even more ridiculous.

[Jack]

Manny Machado with two homers tonight for the Orioles in his second career game as a 20 year old.

[MG]

BAP - It was a questionable lineup by Cholly for a couple of reasons.

Schneider has good numbers vs. Lohse yet rides the pine.

Pierre is starting yet Nix rides the pine.

[norbertods]

Benito Santiago. Wow. Haven't heard that name in a while. Had one the best arms for a catcher I ever saw.

[MG]

Nice bunt by Frandsen. This has been a really well pitched and well played game so far.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: Those Schneider numbers are based on a small sample size. As far as I'm concerned, keeping Schneider on the bench is never a wrong decision.

I agree, however, that Nix should be starting -- not just today, but any time we face a RH pitcher.

[MG]

Things I remember most about Santiago - really distinctive catching style and throwing from his knees and the Oakley shades he always wore.

[MG]

Little ironic that Bowa is talking about how Lieberthal changed the culture here and yet Lieberthal was one of the guys who was accused of criticizing Bowa and his managerial style.

[GTown_Dave]

I liked listening to Harry saying "Benito Santiago". Otherwise, meh.

[coolhandluke]

Pierre draws the walk. we could use more of that

[bay_area_phan]

There is just no way that Pierre was safe there. And the very idea of trying to steal on Molina was nuts.

[MG]

Chooch is a nice catcher but he doesn't have nearly Molina's arm strength or accuracy.

[NEPP]

How was he safe there??

[NEPP]

Nice slide.

[GTown_Dave]

Looked like a really bad attempt at an easy tag from the angles I saw.

[NEPP]

That was just terrible by Howard.

[coolhandluke]

looked like he pulled his hand back away from the tag. Not sure if he tagged him

[NEPP]

He looked safe from the angles they showed.

[MG]

Nice play by Frandsen. Arguably the best Halladay has looked all year.

[NEPP]

Not arguably...this is the first time he's really looked like Doc all season.

[GTown_Dave]

Tonight is like the NLDS, only the Phils actually managed to score a run tonight. What this club needs is a name Closer.

[Iceman]

Doc has looked like Doc ever since he gave up that HR to Chipper in Atlanta early in the game.

MG- this is great! What do you think we could get for this guy in a trade?

[MG]

It is a privilege to watch Halladay to pitch when he is locked in like he is tonight.

Plus curveball, changeup, and a really good cutter.

[MG]

Iceman - A lot.

[cut_fastball]

Ward, I'm worried about the Doc... 27 of his throws to that little man with the funny headgear have missed that funny-shaped plate that all these men swing wooden clubs over.

Ward, what's a "ball", anyway? Ward, Ward?

[EastFallowfield]

Rollins stinks.

I thought Halladay looked OK last time he pitched when he went 7 IP, 0 runs.

[MG]

Obvious balk call.

[MG]

Can't remember the last time the Phils have bunted this well in a game. Been 4 quality bunts tonight.

[NEPP]

That's when having a great bunter is nice.

[MG]

Utley!

[coolhandluke]

WTG Chutley !

[GBrettfan]

Really nice bunt by Pierre.

And Utley - Niiiiice!

[3r0ck]

How's Doc's velocity?

[bay_area_phan]

There's another difference between this year & the NLDS. I guess that means this year's Phillies team is better than last year's.

[NEPP]

The Man.

[GTown_Dave]

There are worse ways to end an 0-13 streak.

[MG]

8 HRs now in 122 ABs for Utley. Power always notably fades as the season goes on but a return of Howard to 35-40 HRs and Utley next year to 20-25 would do wonders for this offense.

[coolhandluke]

followed by a RH K

[coolhandluke]

foolowed by a RH K

[EastFallowfield]

Utley's done. Halladay's finished. Rollins doesn't care. All those memes look good tonight.

Coatesville on the HR payoff!

[The Hook]

Chase drove that ball. Makes you think it's such a shame last three years chase has lost. The numbers he could have had and career.