Game chat: 4th-place Phillies assume spoiler role

Just don't tell that to the team that just won two-straight series, is technically still in it and has been playing much better ball of late. The Revitalized Nine continue their homestand with the first of three against the Wild Card-leading Braves. First pitch is 7:05 with Vance Worley pitching and Domonic Brown batting second. Meanwhile, Erik Kratz gets the night off in favor of Brian Schneider. Three of the last four Beerleaguer posts have featured pictures of back-up catchers BTW. The Phils also made a roster move before the game, adding left-hander Raul Valdes off the disabled list and sending Hector Luna back to Lehigh Valley. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[gobaystars!]

Interesting thought:
Braves have an excellent bullpen but it's a double edged sword when it's a team's biggest strength because a great bullpen can easily be worn out. I'd say easier than a good rotation. And certainly easier than a good lineup. Rarely if ever, have I seen a lineup worn out the way bullpens can be come October.
With that premise as a starting point, would you rather have hitting be your team's strength followed by starting pitching with bullpen last? Does it matter?

[MG]

East Fallowfield - Yeah I noticed that too and it was classic Fredi. Worse bungler with the bullpen than Cholly.

Kimbrel though hasn't been used nearly as hard this year. Only on pace to pitch 63 IP in 63 G well done from his 77 IP in 79 G last year.

O'Flaherty's work load is also notable lower. Ditto Venters.

Kind of get the impression last year after those guys faded in Sept & Linebrink gave out really chastising how Fredi overused the bullpen that management really laid him into him about overusing his arms.

Fredi has been much better this year about not driving his bullpen arms into the ground. One of the reasons why I think they will end up winning the NL East (that and the Nats shutting down Strasburg right around Labor Day)

[lorecore]

Good to see DOM's HBP wasn't serious, he seems to be a magnet for injuries early in his career. All I thought was HAMATE! when he got hit.

If he were to miss time with an injury during this 3rd chance in the majors, it would just be too much.

[Conway Twitty]

bullit: When did Homer Fluff play? I can't find him on B-R.

[bullit]

lol. well played, conway.

[lorecore]

Outside major injuries, the absolute worst thing that could happen in these last two months of the season is Kevin Fransden playing well enough to win the job in 2013 a la AAABerry.

**blah blah, i'm dumb for thinking a guy playing good is a bad thing, im such a debbie downer, blah blah blah. There, i saved some ppl a few seconds of typing, your welcome.

[Iceman]

BAP- you have nothing to worry about. You'll be competing for grousing titles for years to come.

[MG]

Phils' defense:

UZR/150: 1.2 (12th in MLB)
DRS: -9 (17th in MLB)
RZR: .829 (18th in MLB)
Fielding pct: .983 (t-12th in MLB)
Errors: 67 (tied for 16th)

Basically a team that is around average to maybe just slightly below average defensively.

[gobaystars!]

I hope Frandsen does well but I'd hate to see him counted on at all next year for more than a bench spot, provided he plays well now or course. If he is given a prominent role it would be a result of Ruben screwing up, regardless of how well he plays now. Even if he hits .400 Rube can't let that sway him.

[GTown_Dave]

All I thought was HAMATE! when he got hit.

You mean "hambone", not hamate. I double-checked w/ Charlie, & he confirmed the former as the proper medical diagnosis.

[mainerob]

This game was eerily reminiscent of countless years of futility and boredom when facing the Braves machine during their 12 years of dominance. No matter what the Phillies brought to the table, one-sided losses were the outcome.

The Braves would dominate in every facet of the game: starting pitching, the bullpen, the offense and the defense. I fear that we're back in that era.

[MG]

Good news: Howard didn't K tonight

Bad news: Howard didn't have a hit and saw 9 pitches in 4 ABs

No XBH since July 23rd with 4 BBs/22 Ks over that stretch.

Painful to watch Howard scuffle so badly and limp around defensively and on the basepaths. Still think they would have been better off just shutting him down this year.

[coolhandluke]

The difference to me is that the Braves have remained good for very long stretches. The Phillies got good then crashed and burned.

[Iceman]

"Painful to watch Howard scuffle so badly and limp around defensively and on the basepaths. Still think they would have been better off just shutting him down this year."

Gotta get those one-legged reps. It'll make it all the easier to operate on two legs next year. (/Phillies training staff)

[Bob]

Very tough to be at the park tonight. I sense the crowd wants something to cheer about. Yet gets very little.

I see an average club giving effort, but getting average results. 12 10 since the ASB is a good reflection

[coolhandluke]

Do you really believe His pitch recognition will improve when he is healthy? Do you think he will hit lefties better?

[coolhandluke]

Pitchers have totally adjusted to RH and he is unable to adjust at all

[coolhandluke]

I just wish baseball had an amnesty clause like the NBA

[coolhandluke]

Or better yet,do away with guaranteed contracts and just waive players that don't perform like the NFL

[Conway Twitty]

Why are we harping on Howard the day after he got the game winning hit? You should be harping on Cholly for not dropping him in the order until he comes around.

[Bob]

Howard cant win with some.....

He tries to get more aggressive tonight and doesnt get a hit....he gets jumped on. He strikes out....gets jumped on. (no defense for that hilariously bad throw).

How about accepting Howard is 75-80% and working back to form. When healthy he is a 260-270 hitter, 35 HRs, 110-120 RBIs. Drives you nuts at times, yet is a HUGE anchor in the lineup. This is a better lineup with him, flaws and all

[coolhandluke]

if you say so Bob

[gobaystars!]

"The difference to me is that the Braves have remained good for very long stretches. The Phillies got good then crashed and burned."

Not buying it. Braves haven't won a division in 7 years and haven't won a playoff series since 2001. They also finished in 3rd or 4th 4 times. Imagine the Phillies going into that sort of drought. Would we be holding them up as some model of consistency?
Now to their credit the Braves won 14 divisions in a previous life. Good for them but even when that was happening Phillies fans openly asked would you tolerate that many playoff failures?

Nothing personal. I'm just calling that a pretty heavy rewrite of recent history.

[Iceman]

I think it was MG that continually said the fans would turn on Howard when he came back and understandably struggled playing on one leg. I thought there was no way the fans could be that stupid.

If BL is a fair sample of the fan base, MG was dead on with this one.

[gobaystars!]

Look how brave Utley is out there with his bad knees!

Look at what a stupid, lazy bum Howard is! He isn't even running hard!

[coolhandluke]

very astute gobaystars. I guess the 14 division titles does tend to stick in my mind

[Bubba]

Any news on Worley?

Watching him pitch and his demeanor on the bench after he was pulled, he looked physically ill or injured.
I know he is pitching with floaters in his elbow; wonder if that flared up?

Gotta question if he and Howard are doing the right thing by toughing it out?

[GTown_Dave]

Bubba: Stomach flu. Gotta be tough to pitch when you're trying not to soil yourself.

[cut_fastball]

coolhandluke -- clout's really a funny guy. Listen to him, and you'll learn a little about the Phillies' minor-league baseball. Where clout gets his scouting reports, I don't know. Regardless, he's 'real good' (my best 'Chollie-ism').

bay_area_phan's the smartest poster here. At time's his humor's "...off the chart's..." dry, and maybe ever obscure. You'll also learn a little about the Phillies' minor-league baseball from b_a_p, too. clout and b_a_p are good people.

GTown is the resident curmudgeon. If you can "out-carp" our Dave, "...you are the man...".

Seriously, no one takes themselves too seriously around here. Except me. Then I fight back, until I run out of facts. Which is early and often.

Then I realize it's just a blog. About a baseball team that fell off a cliff (pun intended).

[coolhandluke]

Thanks a lot for that fastball i really appreciate the info

[GTown_Dave]

I'd say the difference in wanting Utley to play & Howard to sit is that Utley's knees had reached a point where they were not going to improve any more than it already had. Howard, on the other hand, would certainly have benefited from a regimen of rest combined w/ increasing emphasis on strength & conditioning. Hell, he still very well might. The Phillies are doing him, & their own future, a great disservice by continuing to run him out there for no possible gain.

[gobaystars!]

Re: Worley
It sucks that he wasn't on but when it's a stomach flu type issue there's no time for a roster move to get a starter up and with the Blanton trade the only option was a straight bullpen start. Worley had to tough it out and he tried. There weren't many other options. That's baseball.

[coolhandluke]

By the way I never let facts get in the way of my posts lol

[Iceman]

MG also rightly pointed out the Phils' mediocre-to-poor defense this year (especially the OF), and he's right. All the more reason to go after Michael Bourn, who would be a significant upgrade defensively, along with the upgrade he'd bring on offense.

But hey, you have to overpay for top talent, and even worse, he's LH. So let's go with Angel Pagan and save some coin.

[gobaystars!]

I see the potential benefit of resting Howard but I can't say it would help for sure. I just think the slack given to Utley and not Howard is absurd.

[MG]

Iceman - Howard got booed loudly yesterday after some of his ABs.

It was kind of sad especially since it is clear that Howard isn't close to 100% yet.

[Iceman]

MG- they're definitely getting on him. I guess you can call it the product of just being fed up with the way the entire season has gone, but regardless, it's incredibly foolish and disheartening.

[MG]

gobaystar is right about there being a double standard for Utley and Howard. If Utley was struggling this badly, I would bet he wouldn't getting booed this loudly and this regularly at home already.

[gobaystars!]

If Howard had thinner skin, we'd have a developing Dick Allen situation.

[Bob]

@ cool....I will say so. Ryan Howard at 75% is better than any combination that Charlie can pencil in his lineup card. So I accept him flaws and all.

Ryan Howard was a huge part in a World Fucking Championship (channeling my inner Utley). He deserves to hear it at times, but he won us a game yesterday. Ill live with his bad night

[Bubba]

Hope the stomach flu doesn't become a clubhouse epidemic.
They are playing _____ enough as it is.

(Apologies to the board- everyone was thinking it, someone had to say it)

[MG]

Double Standard with Howard:

My sense is that it is multi-faceted why Howard gets as much/if not more criticism than anyone on this team.

Part of it is the contract he has. Part of it is the amount of time he strikes out. Part of it the kind of numbers he put up early in his career especially '06.

Part of it though is definitely race though even if it is somewhat directly overt or even conscious.

[gobaystars!]

Speaking of clubhouse epidemics, was it ever confirmed that the Phillies lost the 09 WS due to swine flu? That's the hidden story/urban legend I want to know more about.

[Iceman]

I'm not one to go on and on about who we should've signed that would've saved our season if our FO wasn't full of morons, etc. etc...

But what were our scouts doing when they allegedly saw Ben Sheets pitch? Were they playing Brickbreaker or something? I understand the offense had a lot to do with it, but in the two starts that he's pitched against the Phils, he looks like a really polished pitcher. And the Braves got him on a minor league deal!

I understand you can't predict these things a lot of the time, but I have a hard time believing he was looking a lot worse than this. And what he is now is a formidable pitcher that rounds out the Braves rotation nicely going into the postseason (which they'll be a part of without their annual September collapse).

[Jack]

I promise you that my criticism of Howard is not race-based. I find it absurd to even have to say that. And I could care less about strikeouts. Hell, I think he was a much better hitter when he was striking out *more*.

My criticism of Howard isn't even a criticism of him. It's a criticism of the front office thinking that he's a $25 million a year player, when he just isn't. He does two things well--hit for power, and hit well against right-handed pitching. Otherwise, he's average or below in every other single facet of the game. I have no doubt that he has worked his ass off to get where he is, and I don't begrudge him a thing. He came from an unknown college and was a nothing prospect-- I have no doubt that he's worked harder at baseball and been more successful at baseball than anything I will ever do in my life. And from what I can tell, though it doesn't really matter, he seems like a genuinely good guy. I absolutely am happy for him and his family that he's as successful as he is.

But I have absolutely no problem at all pointing out that his skillset is what it is, and that it was a stupid decision by the front office to pay a huge contract for that skillset. No problem at all.

[MG]

Surprised if you don't see more of these games over the final 2 months too on nights where the starter doesn't pitch well and deep into games.

Limited lineup that doesn't particularly do anything well and is going to miss Chooch/Pence/Vic offensively considering their replacements (Kratz/Schierholtz/Mayberry) are all downgrades offensively.

[Bob]

Ryan Howard = Donovan McNabb. If you just got into sports, you would never know that 1 has a championship ring. You wouldnt know 1 is argubly the best player at his position in his franchises history.

[coolhandluke]

yur comment on sheets is right on point,and shows that we have work to do in our scouting

[GTown_Dave]

Bob: It's an insult to Ryan Howard to compare him to a whiny slacker like McNabb. I have a lot of respect for the former, & not much at all for the latter.

[MG]

Sadly I do think Howard is going to end up somewhat like Dick Allen towards the end of his contract - a lightening rod for fan criticism who becomes embittered and negative toward the city & its fans.

Just don't see him being nearly as vocal as Allen was or having the fiery demeanor/temper Allen frequently displayed.

Howard though will certainly not have to endure the kinds of ridiculous comments and behavior that Allen did too during his tenure here. Society has changed since then & that kind of behavior at public forums today just isn't tolerated.

[coolhandluke]

I too believe that race is not even a thought when discussing RH. His contract demands a much higher level of performance

[Iceman]

Bob- agree with G-Town on McNabb v. Howard. McNabb was a total phony and proved that even more so once he left town. Nothing was ever his fault. Not once have I heard Ryan Howard refuse to take accountability for his own shortcomings/mistakes. Also works as hard as any player on the team (unlike McNabb). He's a class act all the way around. The antithesis of McNabb.

G-Town, something tells me you and I would agree pretty close to 100% on all things Eagles. I've got an attitude towards them that is not unlike your attitude towards the Phils.

[Jack]

And then Gtown Dave speaks, and you can understand why people think the criticism is race-based, superficial, and personal. The idea that McNabb or any professional athlete is a "slacker" is ridiculous.

Again, my criticisms will always be based on actual, on-field performance. I've never once said a negative thing about Howard's work ethic, attitude, personality, or anything to do with intangibles or off-field stuff.

Say what you will about my comments on players, but at least acknowledge that it has always been about stuff that *actually* happens on the baseball field, and has never once had anything to do with a player as a person (with the lone exception of Brett Myers, whom I repeatedly have criticized as someone who beat his wife in public. I don't apologize for having a problem with that.).

[coolhandluke]

I certainly hope the Phillies have learned that giving out huge contract extensions do not guarantee continued success

[GTown_Dave]

Iceman: I'd have to say you're probably correct.

[GTown_Dave]

Jack: Criticism of McNabb for not bothering to work to get himself into proper physical condition, & for failing to learn the damn playbook -- you know, pretty much the main thing for which a QB is responsible -- have occurred w/ every NFL team for which he has played. That has nothing to do w/ race, & everything to do w/ being a slacker.

[Iceman]

Jack- of course race is involved with both McNabb and Howard. But that shouldn't prevent relevant criticisms being leveled towards either.

McNabb notoriously did just enough pre-game studying to 'get by' and showed up more and more out of shape every year he came to camp. When he left the organization he was immediately ripped by the Redskins for not learning the playbook, which is why he eventually got benched. Then he got ran out of another city for similar issues. These are facts and legitimate criticisms.

[MG]

Howard/McNabb

Not a good comparison for a couple of reasons.

It is possibly fair game to call McNabb 'a slacker' in a couple of different aspects including the weight he gained in his final years/fitness & conditioning level along with the huge amount of criticism he got both in DC and Minnesota for his lack of preparation off the field watching game tape & learning the playbook.

Howard hasn't ever thrown his teammates 'under the bus' in public either nor said some of the stupid things that McNabb couldn't seemingly avoid.

[Jack]

I should amend that. Professional athletes could certainly be "slackers."

What is ridiculous is the idea that Gtown Dave or Iceman knows a single thing about McNabb or anyone else as a person. They have no idea what any athletes work ethic is like, nor his personality, nor his attitude. And I find it ridiculous to claim that you do, whether it's McNabb, or Howard, or Roy Halladay, or anyone else.

[Meyer]

Howard probably has worked much harder than Utley but will never get the credit he deserves.

[gobaystars!]

I've never understood the notion of booing a player because of his contract. OK a player is getting paid however much so now he should become a better player? Maybe it is a bad contract but what in the world does that have to do with Ryan Howard's performance tonight? Should he have said "No thanks, I don't think I can live up to that paycheck"?
Maybe I just don't think about money when I'm watching the games ever. It never crosses my mind.

[limoguy]

Another game that's hard to stomach within a season that's hard to stomach. It's to the point that none of the subplots seem to matter. Players getting hurt and going on the DL and then back off. Players bouncing back and forth between Philadelphia and Lehigh Valley. Signing marginal players as backups. Releasing/DFA'ing guys. It's all a big blur at this point with none of those things changing the results.

It's even hard to talk about 2013. There are question marks over so many guys and Lord only knows what moves they will make between now and then.

[gobaystars!]

The last logical discussion concerning McNabb was held sometime around 2004. It might be best to let that issue go.

[Jack]

So McNabb has some of the best numbers of any QB in franchise history during the most successful era in franchise history, but you guys know for a "fact" that he was out of shape and didn't try hard?

And I'm unfair to Ryan Howard. Right.

[Iceman]

"What is ridiculous is the idea that Gtown Dave or Iceman knows a single thing about McNabb or anyone else as a person."

Huh. I was unaware that a word like 'slacker' cuts so deep that you actually need to know the guy personally to label him one.

I was just basing it on what I observed from watching every game he played over a decade, reading countless reports on the guy from reporters traveling with the team, as well as first-hand accounts from coaches who all had very similar things to say about him (especially in Washington and Minnesota).

But 'slacker' is a loaded word, I guess. Maybe if I sat down and had a cup of coffee with him, I'd change my mind.

[GTown_Dave]

Jack: I don't care if you agree w/ me -- or the coaches, players & sportswriters who made the exact same criticisms in 3 separate cities -- but so far as many an Eagles fan is concerned McNabb did more than enough to sully his own image. As I wrote previously, I have a lot of respect for Ryan Howard, & not much at all for Donovan McNabb.

[Jack]

By the way, I get arguments in favor of and against McNabb. He had great qualities and serious flaws as a player. Frankly I was glad the Eagles traded him when they did.

What is absurd is the idea of criticism based on his attitude, or work ethic, or any other intangible that none of you have a single idea about. Again, I dare you once to find a single criticism of mine about Howard, or Kendrick, or any other player that's based on anything other than what they actually did on the field.

[coolhandluke]

The problem is,in the Nfl if you don't perform the team can dump you. In baseball the team is stuck with the terrible contract.

[GTown_Dave]

Jack: I do not agree that attitude &/or work ethic be considered "intangibles" when multiple published & reported sources -- including teammates & coaches of the player in question -- raise the same criticisms.

[gobaystars!]

I think it would be safe to say that McNabb worked hard in Phila and as he got older he became content and not so interested in doing the extra stuff that guys in their 30s have to do. During his Eagles years there were concerns that he worked out too much. He would come into camp muscle bound and top heavy. As he aged he couldn't maintain himself. Also after years of success with the Eagles he wasn't willing to start over in DC or Minn.
To say he was a slacker throughout his career is to concede that he must also have been the greatest natural talent in the history of the position to do what he did without studying or working out.

To bring it back to race and fandom, there was a time when asking "should McNabb or Garcia start for the Eagles?" (and before that Cunningham or McMahon) was a good way to find a racist without much prying.

[Jack]

Iceman: I try and make this point a lot, so I'm not just picking on you about the "slacker" thing (although it is a loaded word--when was the last time you heard a white player described as lazy?)

I don't like deifying guys, or tearing them down, based on a bunch of made up crap. You know why I love Chase Utley as a player? Because of all the things he does on the field. Not because of some crap about him being a quiet leader on the team, or because he's super intense, or any of that. Maybe that stuff is true and maybe it isn't. Maybe it's true, but it's also true that he took some steroids, at which point a lot of people's heads would explode from the cognitive dissonance. Who knows? I don't, you don't, and I doubt anyone else posting here does.

My point is simply that praise or criticism based on that stuff carries very little weight, to me, because it's just so flimsy, and so subjective, and so easily mainpulated to the point where it can reinforce dangerous ideas or stereotypes. I'm just not a fan of it.

[Bubba]

when was the last time you heard a white player described as lazy?

Joe Blanton, Vance Worley, Greg Luzinski, Ty Wigginton, John Kruk..........

[coolhandluke]

Good answer Bubba

[davthom73]

Another stellar game by Schneider at and behind the plate -- with the guy even hitting into a double play for emphasis. Terrible, terrible move bringing this guy back for the 2012 season. He is terrible -- and DONE! Put a fork into him.

[bay_area_phan]

I've always really liked Ben Sheets, but regarding the "What were the Phillies thinking" question:

1. They were probably thinking that even an inexpensive contract still impacts the budget and, with Halladay, Lee, Hamels, & Worley, they would be better off devoting whatever remaining resources they have to the bullpen & the offense; and

2. They were probably concerned that Sheets would suffer a season-ending injury -- which I'd still put at about a 60 to 70% probability of happening, even though there are only 2 months left in the season.

[Luis]

The funny part davthom theres been talk about bringing Schneider back. There isnt much next year in the (MLB experienced) back up catcher market. Im not on the Kratz bandwagon like most of Bl'ers but i rather take my chances with Kratz. This still leaves them with a need for a rd stringer catcher which i guess would go to Jake Fox.

[Dragon]

I actually hope Frandsen plays well and can help next year. Most of the holes in the Phillies lineup, bullpen and bench are fillable. Third base, however, is another matter. Don't see any FA's out there that would be an improvement. Most are washed-up, overpriced, overrated or no better.

[Buy sell]

Dragon, perfectly stated re: 2013 & Frandsen...

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Ryan Howard went to Missouri State, not an "unknown college".

[Will Schweitzer]

I know it won't happen, but I'd like to see if Napoli would move to 3b. It makes at least as much sense as speculating that Chooch take third.

[Edmundo]

Ryan Howard went to Missouri State, not an "unknown college".

There is room for confusion since it was known as Southwest Missouri State when Howard went there. :)

[Iceman]

These last 7 games against the Braves felt like what many told us the last few years were going to be like, with them being the better team and all. Oh well. It was going to happen sometime.

Just have to hope we steal their CF in the off-season and our pitching bounces back in 2013. I still don't think the 'torch has been passed' officially (though I do think the Braves are better than Washington, at least this year).

[lorecore]

My biggest fear of the Braves over the last 3-4 seasons is that their pitching prospects looked to be incredibly deep with incredibly high ceilings.

So far a lot of them are either coming up short when called upon or losing a lot of ceiling as they mature. Kimbrel has kept up his end of the bargain while Beachy has surpassed any projection ever given to him, but the likes of Minor, Jurrijens, Hanson, Delgado, Teheran have faded from their original phenom-type status.

Obviously producing guys like Kimbrel and Beachy is still impressive, and some of the guys I mentioned are still plenty young to turn into stars, along with even younger ones still behind them - but my main point is that about 2 years ago I thought the Braves would have amassed an extremely good rotation, but it ends up they are still having to win with guys like Hudson and Ben Sheets anchoring their staff.

Their future still looks impressive, but it could have been worse in my opinion. Glad to see guys like Minor and Hanson struggle.

[lorecore]

Highest BA Prospect rankings over last few years:

Tommy Hanson: #4
Julio Teheran: #5
Randall Delgado: #36
Mike Minor: #37
Arodys Vizcaino: #40
Jair Jurrjens: #49
Craig Kimbrel: #86

Ridiculous how good they draft arms, just nonstop influx.

[Jbird]

I think Braves pitching prospects also get a little extra glow from the team's glory years. Sorta like Yankee and Red Sox prospects get extra hype all the time. Also, not to quibble but Teheran was a big $ International FA, Delgado was also an international FA, Vizcaino came over from the Yankees in a trade and Jurrjens from the Tigers.

[ColonelTom]

Dragon - Frandsen's a 2B playing out of position at 3B. He'd be a solid replacement for Wigginton on the bench, but he's not an everyday solution (even as a 1-year stopgap) at third.

Maicer Izturis and Jeff Keppinger are solid options at 3B. Neither is a star, but both can hit a little and play the position. They also can play SS and 2B, which gives Cholly flexibility in case of injuries.

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread