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Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Comments

Surprised Brian Mazone never got any Triple-A hardware.

hate to sound sarcastic but . no matter what this kid does they're not gonna bring him up! according to amaro. "(he's just your classic overacheiver)" same with ruf! so what does he intent to do with all the classic underacheivers on the team?

Someone made mention of "Ruf haters" on last thread.

How can anyone possibly be a Ruf hater?

Ruf's problem is he has no position with the Phillies. The scouts say he can't play LF. He could be a below average defensive 1Bman, but Phillies got a guy there now.

I'd love to see Ruf get a chance, anywhere. I'll be rooting for him.

Congrats to Cloyd, kid has done everything he possibly can with the talent he's been given. Unfortunately he has no leniency whatsoever, so he'll need to continue this type of performance no matter where he goes (Fall League, ST, back to AAA) to be given a shot at the majors. The slightest blip and he'll likely be sent to the back of the list of callup-hopefuls.

FYI - In the past 10 years, only Victorino(05)and Johnny Peralta(04) ever had any MLB success after winning the IL MVP award. You'd have to go back to 1991-1993 to find any real promising IL MVPs in the bigs: Derek Bell, JT Snow, Jim Thome.

http://phuturephillies.com/2012/08/28/tyler-cloyd-named-ils-most-valuable-pitcher/

Cloyd NAMED INTERNATIONAL. LEAGUE. MVP

Posted by: Buy sell | Tuesday, August 28, 2012 at 01:12 PM
--------------
JW- I posted this nearly 2 hours ago on your prior blog and received ZERO comments or feedback

Let them come see if they can overachieve at the MLB level instead of running guys like Hector Luna, Pete Orr, and other out there.

I hate how if a guy isn't toolsy they don't get a shot, despite performanec to the contrary.

Take Ruf for example. He leads all of minor league baseball in homeruns, is 3rd in OPS, and is close to cracking the top 10 in RBI. He's done all this in the Double-A Eastern League that is regarded as having very fair parks (not hitter friendly like the Texas League or Pacific Coast League). Ruf is not considered a "prospect" because he lacks "tools". Tools are great, they helped build Noah's ark, but I could give two squirts of pee about tools when it comes to players, just as long as they produce. I'm not stupid, I understand that toolsy prospects have a higher ceiling than non-toolsy guys like Tyler Cloyd or Darin Ruf. However, it sucks that they get pushed aside because of this. You don't know what you have until you test it out. In other words, give the dude a shot. Maybe that's what the Phillies have in mind, since Ruf has recently been moved to left field, a position that isn't blocked at the MLB level like his old position of 1st base is (Ryan Howard).

Michael Schwimer is right--Triple A is for chumps.

How about that Carlos Rivero, named to the final International League All-Star team at third base. Pretty good season. .800 OPS, 10 homers. Seems like there's a lot of trash 3B in the IL. Trash in general. IronPigs roster is horrid.

I think Ruf & Cloyd are altogether different animals, for several reasons.

Reason No. 1 is that Cloyd's pure stuff just isn't very good, which means he has limited upside. On the other hand, if Ruf can learn to play LF, we have no idea what his upside is. Granted, posters like lorecore THINK they know -- just like they thought they knew that Erik Kratz couldn't play defense & couldn't hit major league pitching. But they don't, in fact, know & can't know unless Ruf is actually tried at the major league level.

Reason No. 2 is that Cloyd plays a position where we already have 4 good guys on the major league roster, plus a passable one in KK, plus two other guys in the high minors (Pettibone & Morgan) with considerably higher upside than he has. Ruf, if he can make the transition to LF, would play a position where we have enormous needs, and where our options at the major league level are a bunch of stiffs. Not to mention that the only RH one out of the whole lot is Mayberry, who is also a stiff.

Cameron Rupp named Florida State League(Clearwater)'s Allstar Catcher.

Austin Wright named Florida State League's Pitcher of the Year.

How about that Carlos Rivero, named to the final International League All-Star team at third base. Pretty good season. .800 OPS, 10 homers. Seems like there's a lot of trash 3B in the IL. Trash in general. IronPigs roster is horrid.

Posted by: J. Weitzel | Tuesday, August 28, 2012 at 02:59 PM

----------------

Jason - Irony - A castoff from the Phillies farm system - then signed by the Natnls

"Ruf's problem is he has no position with the Phillies. The scouts say he can't play LF."


clout, since I've never seen Ruf play, and have no idea how much athletic ability he has, I'll take your (or the scouts) word for it.


However, if somehow he does develop into a player who can hit MLB pitching, it begs the question:

Is he a worse athlete and potential LF than Luzinski and Burrell? Is he worse that Carlos Lee when he was still in LF? Is he a worse potential LF than Alfonso Soriano? Worse than Manny? (As knowledgeable as you are, I'm sure you know I could list many more.)

Granted, these guys all swung BIG sticks at the height of their careers, but the point is that very substandard defense has been tolerated in LF by a lot of teams for a long time.


IMHO, the question is really whether Ruf can hit well enough to break into the show despite bad defense, because it sure seems that defense won't get him there.

It didn't get the guys listed above to the show either.

May I presume the International League Most Valuable Pitcher Award is a bronzed statuette of the Kool-Aid Man?

Yeah, Cloyd isn't very good. When your upside is Kyle Kendrick, you just aren't going to force your way into a lot of conversations, and justifiably so.

Especially when the team already has Kyle Kendrick, who, to something of my chagrin, is quietly having his best season in the majors. Of course, I would argue that a lot of that is based on bullpen success, but it exists nonetheless.

So there. I said something nice about Kyle Kendrick. Who wants to talk about Ryan Howard's contract?

When Ruf's transition to LF is discussed, Burrell is often mentioned. Burrell in LF worked in spite of his terrible speed because (at least to my eyes) he was a natural as far as reading fly balls and had a strong, accurate throwing arm.

In Burrell, a plus arm, plus reads, and bad speed added up to a below-average defensive LF. A bad arm, bad reads, and bad speed just doesn't work for a major league OF, regardless of the caliber of the bat.

I hope Ruf can develop as a LF, but I suspect that if he could, he would have by now. I don't see it happening.

"So Schwimer and Cloyd for...? Im finding it hard to imagine that package netting anything that could be considered of value to the 2013 Roster to even worth dealing."

I'm not saying that they'd land a boatload for a package of Cloyd and Schwimmer, but it's pretty apparent that they have no role for Cloyd going forward. I could see them as throw-ins at least.

Who would have thought they would have acquired a useful arm for Valdez?

Tonight's Lineup: Rollins (SS), Frandsen (3B), Utley (2B), Howard (1B), Mayberry (CF), Brown (LF), Nix (RF), Kratz (C), Worley (1).

buy sell: I thought you had some work to do?!

A couple of things. Nobody has claimed that Ruf has a bad arm. Secondly, he's never played LF in his life, as far as has been reported. I'd give the guy more than a couple of weeks to find out if he can do it.

And Howard playing everyday at first base is probably the plan going forward. But going forward includes at least four more years. And with him being a big man, and his bat being in decline over the last few seasons, I would not make too many predictions about never needing anyone to fill in at first.

If the DH ever comes to the NL, Howard will be the first one in line to stay off the field, or at least he should be.

This sounds kind of weird, but I don't really think Ruf's numbers are all *that* impressive, once you consider the context of the hitter-friendly park in Reading and the fact that he's 26.

His line on the season is .317/.408/.622 for a 1.030 OPS. Those numbers are very good, especially the slugging, obviously, but they aren't really out of line for what you expect the top hitters to be in any given league. The International League leader in OPS is .960, the Texas League leader is .977, the PCL league leader is 1.058, the California League leader is 1.047. Now add the fact that he's 26, in a hitter-friendly park, and can't play defense, and you sort of understand why people around baseball aren't exactly talking nonstop about Darin Ruf.

I'm sure he's worked hard to get where he is, and I hope he's rewarded with a shot at the bigs. But it's not really hard to see why people are skeptical.

~~~~Repost from last thread after it closed~~~

Re: Team reaction to Schwimer etc.

I don’t know if this relates or not, but it is interesting nonetheless…

In early spring of 2012, as ever the Phillies reading-material junkie, I downloaded a book by then-Phils’ minor leaguer Eric Pettis. The book chronicled his experiences in the Phils’ system. Although the book received some blog press, frankly, I found it to be very poorly written and mostly unremarkable.

The book also included a tiny bit of whining about travel, team traditions, housing, fans, handling of minor leaguers, etc. Pettis also seemed to laud his own accomplishments and work ethic just a tiny bit much for someone just beginning a baseball career.

Lo and behold, in early April, not long after the book was “published,” Pettis was released by the Phils.

I do not know if there was any correlation between his release and the book’s publication. However, it seemed to me that perhaps the organization did not look kindly on someone who both challenged and exposed, even in a very small way, the “system.”

If anyone has any insight, please share. I’ve been wondering about this since it happened.

I’m not a company person at all, and have launched my share of challenges to powers-that-be. But my own opinion about both Pettis and Schwimer is that they are employees. For the public facade, tow the line, talk the talk, and unless you are a whistle-blower about unethical practices, leave the whining about behind-the-scenes stuff for private conversations. Settle your issues quietly and involve as few people as possible. And if the issues aren’t enormous, let them go. And feel lucky for being one of the few to do what you love for a living.

There aren’t too many major leaguers—even among the big names--who openly disagree with team policies and/or criticize day-to-day operations. The key word here is openly. Part of being a ballplayer, I think, is not only fitting the team needs in terms of talent, but also understanding that there needs to be some discretion involved with how one handles oneself as a member of the organization.

WillS: I understand what you mean, i guess I should have been more clear with the "not worth dealing" part.

In Cloyd, you have a guy who is basically as MLB ready as he'll be, having success in AAA. Having a 6th starter is just as valuable to the Phillies as it is any other team. I dont think Cloyd will have much success in the bigs, but hes serving the purpose as a 6th starter next year.

I do not believe you could trade him and acquire anything that would be more beneficial than a 6th starter.

If Ruf hits like Burrell, or Soriano, or ca-Lee or the Bull ...

And has better throwing arm than Pierre, I'd say give him a chance and put him in LF..

I heard he's going to the AFL this yr, to really learn how to play the position...

Imagine a home grown OF: Ruf- Gillies- Brown. Its nice to imagine or give your dreams a chance..etc.... but, RUBE will probably squish that possibility.


awh: There is substandard defense and there is KP "kaint play" defense.

Scouts currently rate Ruf KP in LF. Theoretically, he could improve, with enough experience, to "substandard."

FWIW, Luzinski was playing LF in the major leagues at age 20 and was considered an MLB average fielder. His glove got worse as he got older and he was pretty worthless by age 30, defensively.

i take a complete different outlook than awh. He is citing very poor defenders as reasons why Ruf could make it.

I see the many poor defensive players in the league and think it damns Ruf even more. If scouts think Ruf can't even play as well as the current awful fielders, then he's a monster longshot in my book.

Also, the idea of comparing any of those guys to Alfonso Soriano is laughable. Say what you will about Soriano and his defense, but the guy was an elite athlete at a younger age (he has four 30/30 seasons, and one 40/40 season from age 26-30).

He has virtually nothing in common with guys like Burrell, Luzinski, Carlos Lee, etc.

I have seen Cloyd pitch and think even though his pitches don't have the velocity that critics say he should have

He does have and uses what he has between his ears: he is a very smart, savvy & deceptive pitcher

He hides the ball well, but I think he needs to adjust better to the hitters as the game goes on, as they are probably adjusting to and reading him better.

A good pitching instructor could teach him that... know of any in the Phillies org?

buy sell: "Imagine a home grown OF: Ruf- Gillies- Brown. Its nice to imagine or give your dreams a chance..etc.... but, RUBE will probably squish that possibility."

Reality will squish that possibility.

Saw where "Orioles near deal with left-hander Randy Wolf - Randy Wolf | MLW"

Might have made sense for Phils to try him out for BP spot...i guess since we're really n0t in race, maybe not.

"Imagine a home grown OF: Ruf- Gillies- Brown."

True, that would be a great home grown OF for the Iron Pigs.

So long as Michael Martinez continues to not only occupy a roster slot, but receive regular playing time, there is no valid argument to be made against at least giving Ruf & Cloyd a look. Neither one could possibly fail as badly as some of the utter crap this ball club has trotted out on a practically nightly basis this season.

In fairness to The Bull - he was never an all-star caliber defender - but his defense did go down hill in a hurry after his knee injury. If I remember correctly he misstepped on one of those old astroturf drains back in the day - does that strike a chord with you Clout?

Before that he usually caught what he could get to and had a decent arm from an accuracy standpoint. Threw to the right base etc.

I'm not trying to make him out as a plus defender - but Luzinski circa 1979 was not the same as circa 1976.

I admit that I will forfeit every argument i can think of for a player being left off the MLB team as long as Martinez remains on it, and actually gets playing time. That's the one loop hole in all of this.

I hope Darin Ruf becomes a 30-home runs a year guy for the Phillies.

But it's a long shot. Why? Because it's a long shot for EVERY prospect and Ruf has taken longer to get where he is.

He's not getting the call this year because he's not even on the 40-man roster yet. I suppose there could always be some shuffling there, but for what purpose? A couple of RH PH opportunities?

Ruf will start next season at AAA where he'll have a chance to swing the bat against some fringe ML pitchers. We'll get yet another chance to see what he has to offer.

Why would we rush Ruf past AAA when even Ryan Howard, a more impressive AA performer, went to AAA first?

I had the pleasure of watching Darin Ruf play LF last Friday thanks to the local cable provider televising the game. Rueben Amaro, Joe Jordan and Dallas Green were supposedly in attendance and if they weren't watching Adam Morgan scratch himself after giving up another line drive to the outfield, they watched Darin Ruf make a couple of nice plays. One was a liner hit right in front him. He took a couple steps back (just as a little-leaguer is taught) and made the catch charging forward. The better catch was a thundering charge and stretch to nab one in left center. He made that catch without taking a divot or damaging the turf in any way. He also made another routine catch look very routine. He may have limited range but he made all the catches that day within his range.

KAS- That makes sense...

Damn..

clout, memory fades and all that over time, but I'll be darned if I ever heard the words "Luzinski" and "average fielder" in the same sentence that didn't include a negative adjective or adverb. Maybe a "passable" but never an "average". I'll definitely agree with "worthless" at 30.

Minutia alert: Luzinski didn't play LF in the majors until he was 21. His age 19 and 20 cups/pots of coffee were at 1B.

Agreed with the quality of fielding we get on a nightly basis is probably not going to take much of a dive if any at all if Ruf gets a call-up in a week's time. Experience is the best teacher, and we really need to see if this kid can give us power on the major league level. The "tools" argument is kind of an excuse IMO especially with knuckleheads like Rube, who signed KK to an extension and Cloyd seems to be his KK a year younger, except he has had a lot of success in the farm. If Ruf has the power bring his ass up and give him a chance damn it!! He can suffer in LF on the majors and make the adjustments.

Can: Good post. Given that he was a 24th round pick and doesn't appear to have latched on with any other team in 2012, I think it's fair to say that Pettis wasn't much of a prospect. Still, he actually did post good numbers in his 2 seasons, so it seems mildly odd that they'd just suddenly cut him loose. If he had been a top prospect, he'd still be here. Since he wasn't, I could easily see his perceived digs at the organization being a tipping point that led to his release.

re: Austin Wright winning FSL Pitcher of the Year

Not sure thats something to be proud of...this list looks much worse than Cloyd's group

2000 Aaron Harang
2001 Ricardo Rodriguez
2002 Taylor Buchholz
2003 Chadd Blasko
2004 John Connolly
2005 Tim Dillard
2006 Chase Wright
2007 Eric Wordekemper
2008 Dylan Owen
2009 Adam Bromberg
2010 Austin Hyatt
2011 Darin Gorski

Charlie is on the record, and in particular discussion directly about a potential Ruf call up, that for hitting AAA isn't much different than AA, and that a call up to the bigs from AA isn't that big of a deal anymore. I do think there's a chance we might get to see the kid. If that's the case, perhaps it gives Howard a chance to stay off that leg a bit more.

When you account for Herndon and Contreras both being on the 60-day DL, I actually see only 39 other guys on the 40-man roster. And that includes the likes of Galvis and Stutes (not sure if they can be moved to the 60-day to clear spots as well...), and Schneider (who should be DFA'd if there's even the option of adding the Clearwater bat boy).

The "tools" argument goes out the window when you consider that Polanco, Wigginton, et al, are all currently occupying roster positions. Call the kid up already.

As for Cloyd, he's intriguing in that he might be another Kyle Kendrick (spot starter/swingman with good control but mediocre "stuff"), which would be great if we didn't already have a Kyle Kendrick.

How graceful was Greg Luzinski in LF?

"Imagine a home grown OF: Ruf- Gillies- Brown."

True, that would be a great home grown OF for the Iron Pigs.

Posted by: Jack | Tuesday, August 28, 2012 at 03:42 PM
------------------------------------

1) So when Brown was with LHV,
Ruf and Gillies were still in Reading - never on LHV with Brown

2) Brown now with the big club and in 2013; Ruf and Gillies probably with LHV in 2013,

3) Jack- Given all of that; The group of Ruf- Gillies- Brown probably will not be playing together at LHV either.

(unless Brown is playing rehab there)

(BTW - I concluded that was sarcasm at work in your post) :)

·

DH, Ruf has played exactly 34 games in LF the last 3 seasons:

_4 in 2010
_6 in 2011
23 in 2012

They probably saw things they didn't like two years ago, but they sure didn't give him much of a chance to develop there until this season. Also, I don't know who else was on those teams with him (was he blocked in LF? Did they need a 1B?) who might have been blocking him, if anyone.

It seems to me that the sample size is really small, which is why I asked about his athleticism. I suspect his ability to learn probably also matters. ;)

Nice meme expansion, BiaCS!

clout, point taken on the "KP". as I've noted, I've never seen him play.

Bull: As graceful as me drunk trying to do the waltz with my wife, and I am a big, built guy, just to put it into perspective for you. Yes, we don't need another KK, one is plenty, and if that's what they feel Cloyd's ceiling is, I think he very well may get moved. But who out there is worth trading for? Do we trade for Headley, or even Olt? Get the hell out of here, we'd just clear out our farm system completely this time...

re: Ruf

I've never had the chance to see him play and I have no idea of his abilities would translate to MLB pitching, but his numbers suggest that he's at least worth a shot in the Matt Stairs or Thome-2012 role. There's no gamble involved other than a roster spot and if it doesn't work out, it's not like his replacement would be tough to find.

He could give Howard the occasional night off and pinch hit. If he can play a passable LF, all the better. Might as well find out if we've got gold or pyrite.

Funny thing about bulls and china shops. I remember when Mythbusters set up a makeshift china shop. They let the bull loose and he ran through the aisles with precision, not knocking over or touching a single thing.

So, judging by your username, he was very graceful. Which I don't believe is the correct answer.

re: Bull

Or better yet how graceful was Pence out in RF?

Worley is scheduled to get elbow surgery in the postseason. Why not let him get it in September, get an early start on recovery and give Cloyd a look-see.

The-Ax wrote: "Cloyd seems to be his KK a year younger, except he has had a lot of success in the farm."

I'm not sure what is quite meant by this. Kyle Kendrick was 10-4 with a 3.87 ERA at age 22 with the Phillies... in the MAJORS. Tyler Cloyd was still in high A ball at age 22.

Tyler Cloyd is wrapping up his age 25 season. Through age 25, Kyle Kendrick had 35-24 record in 83 major league starts.

Matt Gelb tweets:

Charlie Manuel: "Ruf's had a big year. He's had an extraordinary year. Ruf is someone who pops out at you. Ruf is trying to hit his way to the big leagues. That's what it used to be like. You had to do something to get to the big leagues. Evidently, Ruf is an old throwback.

"I want to see him whether it's at the end of the year or in spring training, whatever. I'm looking forward to seeing him. I was watching his swing on TV. He has a good swing. He has a strong cut."

"i take a complete different outlook than awh. He is citing very poor defenders as reasons why Ruf could make it."


lore, that's a complete mis-statement of my point.

The other players being poor defenders are NOT "the reason Ruf could make it". Rather, the other players made it DESPITE being poor defenders, including Soriano, who Jack has noted had other athletic traits which helped his cause (but, Jack, he's still a bad defender).

I think it's this simple:

Ruf is being given a chance to play in LF because he's blocked at 1B, and has probably hit better on his trip through the minors than the Phillies player development personnel expected.

To be specific, I posit that if they had really expected him to advance this far as a hitter (which is still only the AA level), they would have given him more playing time in LF a couple of years ago and forced the issue.

They probably never expected him to sustain his hitting performance this far up the chain (looks like he's always hit for decent average), and I'm sure never expected this kind of power surge. So, while the power surge may be temporary, it shouldn't have been completely unexpected given that he had a minor power surge last year in Clearwater

Frankly, Ruf's breakout is a bit of an indictment of the Phils minor league development team (who have, fairly, taken their fair share of knocks on this sight) - that is, that they didn't see it coming. Aren't they supposed to be the "scouts" who can predict these kinds of things?

Wolever and company get a 'D' grade on this one. WTF is a guy who's 26 years old being given an extensive audition in LF for the first time? Shouldn't they, the "experts", have been able to anticipate this?

FWIW: Kyle Kendrick is currently 45th on the Phillies all-time win list for pitchers. He's currently ahead of Tug McGraw, Vicente Padilla and Roy Halladay.

Next up on his hit list: Jim Konstanty, everyone's favorite Schoolboy Rowe, and Don Carmen.

"So long as Michael Martinez continues to not only occupy a roster slot, but receive regular playing time..."

GTown, so long as mini-mart is occupying a roster spot, it's an indictment of the entire Phillies player evaluation system. Period.

re KAS:

I meant KK's minor league numbers. I remember when he first came up and was quite successful. I meant Cloyd's minor league numbers were better.

Don Carman. Oh how I hated watching him pitch. Def. on my "Least Favorite Phillies" list.

The-Ax: Okay, I get what you're saying, but it's not a fair comparison. For example, Cloyd first made it to AA at age 23 when he had two starts and a 4.00 ERA. He had another 17 starts at AA at age 24 with a 2.78 ERA.

Kyle Kendrick 12 starts at AA at age 22 with a 3.21 ERA.

Cloyd's numbers weren't that much more successful and he was a year or two older when he did it.

In three seasons at high A ball, Cloyd had a 4.27 ERA in 21 starts (61 appearances) ages 22-24. Kendrick had a 3.43 ERA in 21 starts (22 appearances) ages 20-21.

GTown, so long as mini-mart is occupying a roster spot, it's an indictment of the entire Phillies player evaluation system. Period.

I agree 100%.

Kendrick may well be this franchise's Threepio (or R2D2, if you will), never the featured player but present for all the major events of a long period and chipping in where he can. Looking back in twenty or thirty years, we may see him as the thread binding together this great string of successful seasons rather than Rollins or Utley/Howard.

Sit down, sonny, and let me tell you about the Kyle Kendrick Era... .

Do scouts really consider Reading a hitter's park? I have never once thought that in all my year's of going to games there.

KK having more wins than relievers like Konstanty and McGraw or guys who relieved more than they started (Carman) isn't so impressive.

Not a KK hater, just sayin'.

Speaking of my hometown of Reading, I am making the 5 minute drive over there and going to tonight's R-Phils game.

KK having more wins than relievers like Konstanty and McGraw or guys who relieved more than they started (Carman) isn't so impressive.

Hmmm. Lemme try my hand at editing this post for reasons of increased accuracy & brevity ...

"KK isn't so impressive."

There we go. All fixed.

I take exception with the Luzinski argument for LF. The Bull was a football star in high school and a very high draft choice (11th overall). He was, in other words, a great athlete (who played LF for too long). Ditto Pat Burrell.

I love one thing Manuel said re: Ruf: "Ruf is trying to hit his way to the big leagues. That's what it used to be like. You had to do something to get to the big leagues."

Take that Mayberry and Domonic Brown!

Game Chat is up.

limoguy: Be sure to let Ruf know he's not very good, & has no future w/ a team featuring surefire first ballot HoFers like Michael Martinez & Ty Wigginton.

"So long as Michael Martinez continues to not only occupy a roster slot, but receive regular playing time..."

GTown, so long as mini-mart is occupying a roster spot, it's an indictment of the entire Phillies player evaluation system. Period.

Posted by: awh | Tuesday, August 28, 2012 at 04:42 PM

awh : Agree 100%

Also: MM must have some pictures

please dump howard - and put ruff at first - cant do much worse at that position then we're doing rt now and it will not get any better over next 5 years - anyone who thinks so hasnt been watching howards decline over the past 3 years - and i love the guy personally! - so i feel very bad saying so - but, u know what, the move would be good for him too - going to be way too much pressure and blame for him in phila! - and the bring hernandez and/or ashe and/or galvis and/or gillies up as it makes sense - and the 2 or 3 or 4 pitchers that make the most sense....

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