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Monday, July 30, 2012

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Saw a tweet that Baltimore is currently looking at Joey' B's medical records. One nurse is reported to have been heard saying "dios mio!".

I'd be okay with trading Blanton, Vic and Pierre for salary relief and keeping Pence/Lee for 2013. Both are still very good players and we want to compete in 2013.

Staying under the cap in 2012 means its far easier to go over in 2013 due to the penalty structure in the CBA.


Also, from the last thread: paying for the 2012 version of Bourn with his .781 OPS will big a huge mistake when he really gives you his career averages (in the .720s instead)

Eskin is just reading the same twitter feeds from Jayson Stark and Ken Rosenthal that everyone else does.

Repost from the last thread:

Slocs, IMO Eskin is very reliable when it comes to Eagles rumors, and utterly incompetent with regard to anything concerning Major League Baseball - especially understanding the game and evaluating players.Total b00b.

MG (from the last thread): I got it now. I keep forgetting he passed on Bourn. You weren't saying it would be a mistake to sign Bourn, just that it would be fitting since he's the guy they passed on to sign Pence. I agree with you there.

Still not sure who you're getting to step in for Ruiz, though I agree that obviously his value will never be higher.

Dunkin Donuts franchise prices in Baltimore double. TastyKake cutting production in half.

BTW - Baltimore also interested in Kevin Millwood.. Fat Joe looking good in that comparison

I've been saying for awhile that I'd be shocked if Lee was dealt.

The Phils snuck in at the last minute to even swipe him, as Lee clearly wanted to be here. The whole "he left money on the table to come here" meme has been beaten to death. At the end of the day, yeah it's a business, but RAJ would be setting a bad precedent by dealing Lee. He's still already wiping the eff off his face with his bait-and-switch with offering a deal to Chan Ho Park and a "chance to compete to start."

There is something to be said about being "talent-friendly." Philly has become a destination for guys partly for this reputation.

Salisbury has his source says that the Phils "are going to unload".

Trading Blanton and Victorino isn't "unloading". That's just throwing a few deck chairs off the titanic.

"Unloading" means that a Lee and/or a Pence or even a Rollins is going.

What is more important? Salary relief for 2013 or getting prime A prospects? Sounds like Rube is trying to do both. Just because Wade fleeced him for Pence and Seattle fleeced him for Lee, doesn't mean he has to do the same now.

Eskin: "What about Blanton going to Baltimore?"

RAJ [from the team hotel in Washington]: Well, he's very heavy and almost there.

I wouldn't count on Eskin as a credible source for anything.

RAJ was misquoted. Blanton is actually en route to Baltimore Crab & Seafood on Spruce Street.

All Joking aside, Fat J, key piece for 2008. As much as we joke, he was no Adam Eaton, Freddy Garcia or Kevin Millwood.

I wish him the best. If RAJ finally starts to pull triggers.

@JWeitzel, are you insinuiating I am not a credible source?

Posted by: DPatrone | Monday, July 30, 2012 at 03:36 PM


@Dpatrone

DPatrone - when we see Blanton/Pence go to SF like you said earlier - you will gain some credibility but if also the Lee trade happens and we get Olt +. you will be god-like.

Then if the phillies can move Vic/Pierre/Wiggy for prospect and put together a package for Choo. I would be pumped.

Posted by: Slocs | Monday, July 30, 2012 at 03:51 PM

JW & SLocs~ The above-refereced post @ 3:36 was not me. I promise you that. I was trveling back to Richmind from NJ.

Let me say this: Hey A$$Hole: Don't use my name again. Have the balls to post under your own name!

And for the record, I'm just catching up. I am not hearing anything that anyone else isn't.

"At the end of the day, yeah it's a business, but RAJ would be setting a bad precedent by dealing Lee."


Why? Rube's "precedent" might end up costing him his job soon, if he doesn't seriously retool this team.

Lee has won 1 more game, then The Phanatic has this year. He looks like a pitcher that has past his prime. He still has good value to other teams. That value might be even less at this time next year.

Why not deal him, if you get a proper package in return?

Lee is getting paid 20+ million dollars a year. That won't change no matter where he pitches. Nobody put a gun to his head to sign here. All you can promise a guy is you do everything you can to win. They tried to do that and for various reasons have failed.

He can basically dictate wherever he wants to go anyway. Its not like the Phils can trade him to Kansas City or Tampa.

Its a business. And the Phils better get their finances in check, or their on-field and off-field business is going to go down the toilet.

Even if the Phils are considering "unloading," and even if "unloading" means all the players you mentioned are up for grabs, I still find it hard to believe that all those players could possibly all get swapped. Too many moving pieces for it all to line up.

MLB Network - Pence likely, intimate but big problem is money. Rosenthal: "Dodgers have been waiting for weeks for Phillies to make up their minds abouth their OF, it has arrived"

Kick in cash, make it happen, get value. Remember how much Astros kicked in financially last year

imminent not intimate :-)

dennyb, an off-year and you're declaring Lee "past his prime"?

I dunno. you could be right, but it seems to me that players have bad years from time to time, so I wouldn't quite write him off just yet.

dennyb - people exaggerate all the time. salibury's source's definiation of unloading may be Blanton, Pierre and Victorino, or even just 2 of those 3. The Phillies haven't sold since '06. Getting rid of 3 vets could be seen as unloading even if you don't get your wish of Lee being one of them.

Iceman - Yeah that is what I meant about Bourn. A year ago Bourn was a guy Amaro wasn't apparently interested in (want a power hitting RH bat instead) and now Amaro would pay a premium price this offseason to get him?

***Kick in cash, make it happen, get value. Remember how much Astros kicked in financially last year***

They should pay his salary for the rest of 2012 and get good prospects. They were already planning on paying it anyway. In 2013, they're on their own.

denny, it IS a business, and let's be realistic about why this team has been competitive for the better part of the last 1/2 decade. It's a desirable place for big name players to come and play (Halladay, Oswalt and Lee all WANTED to be here and even gave up a few $'s to do so). When your GM starts getting a reputation for selling off those very guys, that whole dynamic changes and quickly.

It's also a big reason that everyone's favorite other lightning rod, Cholly, is still here. Players like to play for him.

***Yeah that is what I meant about Bourn. A year ago Bourn was a guy Amaro wasn't apparently interested in (want a power hitting RH bat instead) and now Amaro would pay a premium price this offseason to get him? ***

Once you accept that Rube has no long-term plans, these types of moves make a lot more sense.

Does any have an idea of what RAJ asking price is for Pence. I was listening to WIP this morning for as long as I could on my way back, and it was said that we'd get a Catcher prospect in return. Is that it. One would think we'd get more than that for Pence wouldn't we?

I wouldn't use the adjective 'unloading' to describe trading a 5th starter (Blanton) and a part-time/bench OF (Pierre).

re - Vic - who could Phillies get from SF, LAD, Os or Reds - realistically - he is still a rental... Sounds like SD wants a boatload for Headley so unsure you can put together enough from moving Blanton and Vic to get Headley.

Great idea, let's trade Lee during a down year, realizing the minimum return and salary relief you could garner for him, and try to patch holes in hte offense with untested prospects while creating a gaping hole in the rotation, while praying that Halladay is going to bounce back. If Amaro is seriously considering this, I'd be shocked. Fielding calls is one thing, but, this has the makings of a move that is followed by Amaro parking in his garage and leaving hte motor running. Not realistic.

"...this team has been competitive for the better part of the last 1/2 decade."

I have to nitpick with this statement. The team has been beyond competitive over the last 5 years. They've been winners for the last 1/2 decade. No better part of it. They've been competitive for the better part of the last decade. Dominant over the last 1/2.
Sorry, back to trade talk.

"It's also a big reason that everyone's favorite other lightning rod, Cholly, is still here. Players like to play for him."


I think the word "used" to play hard for him, is more applicable.

The players seemed to have tuned out Cholly. He admitted as much this weekend in Atlanta. I think Cholly's time here is probably down to about 60 more games. He can walk away at the end of the year and it will take them about 10 minutes to name his replacement.

gobay, no argument here. I used that verbiage only because I know my audience (several here define "success" in WS rings only).

denny, I don't know which way the wind is blowing with Charlie. I'm sure he's not been as much fun to play for this season now that they're well sub-.500.

My entire point is that it's bad business to be the team who signs Lee for less money than he'd have made signing with Texas, only to trade him to Texas a little more than a year later. For that reason alone, I'd be shocked if Lee is traded.

Pence, Vic and Blanton are entirely different dynamics, though. Trade 'em!

So is "very heavy" not a pun?

I have inside info that the Phils have made catcher Carlos Ruiz available for the right price

I could see Rube moving Vic, Pierre, Pence and Blanton and then also getting a Chase Headley back as well (not sure how, but...)

Then he can say to his fanbase, we are reshuffling the deck and punting on 2012, but we are still trying to add quality for 2013. Keeping Lee also would be a indication of this.

That would be more in line with Rube's way of doing bidness.

I do think Lee is showing his age. He isn't the same pitcher he was, when the Phils first got him from Cleveland. His stuff isn't as good. His command not nearly as good. He still can be effective. He pitched a lot of great games in the first few months of the season and got nothing to show for them. But he looks nothing like you'd want a 20 million dollar starter to look more often then not.

Just another awful contract that Ruben will have to take blame for soon and one that will make it that much harder to construct a team in the next few years.

Has anyone heard which team is favored in the Carlos Ruiz sweepstakes ?

My sources say this grass fed burger is locally sourced.

Cliff Lee just threw 8 two-hit innings at the Dodgers 12 days ago and, one of htose hits was a high fly ball that Mayberry should have caught, but instead bounced off the top of the wall for a homer. He's had a rough year but, it's a little early to declare his signing a mistake. Cliff Lee has looked like this as recently as August 2010.

Rich - interesting that your "inside source" said Chooch is available but you don't have a clue who is interested.

my source claims only that Ruiz has been made available, not who was interested. I'll post more details when things become clearer

My inside source with the Phillies says all players are available for the right price.
My sources with 29 other teams say the same thing.

This really is a good time to move Chooch. Sell while he is playing his best. after all, he is getting older andmore injury prone

My sources have informed me that Chooch, Vic, and Pence are NOT in the lineup tonight.

Hugh-

Since May 30th (a 2 month sample-size)-

Lee is 1-4. In roughly 67 IP, he has given up 78 hits, 36 ER, given up 9 HR's and walked 16.

He has as many walks in that 2 month span, then he had the entire 2010 season.

Anyone who watched him pitch here after he came over from Cleveland and even last year, would say he doesn't look the same. There is a lot of tread off of that tire. All of those 200+ inning seasons do take their toll.

My sources are telling me that this joke format is a bit worn the hell out.

My Source has Meek Mill on da cover and features on NAS and Frank Ocean.

Phillies say they have enough confidence in kratz and schneider, that dealing Chooch is now possible

Rich - bawahahahahaha

On Vic:

Trade Vic, sign Pagan next year. Use the money you save (2-3 million next year) to bring in a good middle reliever, preferably under 35.

denny b - Or Lee could have come back prematurely from that oblique strain in late April & not been 100% (or as close to it as a veteran can be at this point in the season) since then.

Much more likely the case especially given how lingering oblique strains can be for pitchers.

Haven't we heard chicken little stories re Lee before?

Amen Preacher

Trading Lee would have the same effect as not re-signing Hamels. $$$ be damned.

sources say the reason Lee hasn't been moved isdue to injury concerns

Injury concerns holding up Lee deal sources say

MG: Wait, what?

Stop with the conspiracy theories. Lee is fine. He's been a good pitcher for the most part this year, he's just had crappy luck with regards to wins and losses. His basic pitching is the same as it's always been.

You're generally an interesting and informed poster, but your conspiracy theories are really annoying. Everyone is "hiding" an injury or something, when there's absolutely no evidence to support it.

Or Cliff Lee is having a pretty decent season and people are talking out their a$$.

He has had a few starts where one inning has killed him and his HR/FB% is a pretty big anomaly so far this season. His career average there is 8.5% and he is at 13.5% on the season. Also his BABIP is pretty far above his average to.

This season is a pretty good season and he has been hamstrung by some bad luck. I imagine he is a good candidate to have a great season next year

Preacher, my sources say that R00b signed a seven year contract with the "my sources" joke with a vesting option for an 8th for a reported kajillion simoleons.

IMHO, Lee is still an elite starting pitcher. He's just having an off year due to luck, bad defense and more bad luck.

Unless you get a monster return, I'd rather keep him around.

Andres Torres is on the field hugging everyone, players, coaches, ushers.. Have the Mets traded him back to SF? C'mon RAJ get moving

@TTI: I think we're in complete agreement on Clifton Phifer.

Signing Pagan in the off-season would give us below-average defense at all 3 OF spots.

Phils will not pursue Bourne sources close to the Phillies say

Rich: The only BL poster making up trade rumors today was DPatrone, and as he pointed out, it wasn't actually him, but someone else using his name. I think that is limiting the effectiveness of your satire.

Rich - please...

Per Rich's sources - Phantic could be swapped for 3rd Basemen

Lee is 34 years old and has a ton of 200+ inning seasons already under his belt.

Maybe, just maybe, he is a aging pitcher who doesn't have a ton of tread left on the tire. It happens to everyone in sports.

87 million more guaranteed dollars left on that contract too. Another horrible contract. Not necessarily for the cash (because when he signed it, he WAS a elite starting pitcher). But for the length.

My sources say Rich has been an annoying addition to BL

Yanks no longer interested in Wigginton. Apparently they want someone who can play defense at 3B. (True)

Or maybe he is injured and hiding it like MG claims every single player on the Phillies is at one time or another...

Or maybe denny b is just flat out making ridiculous posts.

You make the call.

This season is a pretty good season and he has been hamstrung by some bad luck. I imagine he is a good candidate to have a great season next year

Posted by: The Truth Injection | Monday, July 30, 2012 at 06:59 PM

Agreed. It's incredible that no matter how many examples exist of pitchers with anomalous HR/FB, BABIP, and strand rate regressing to the mean, people refuse to believe it.

Another point re: Lee. Someone in an earlier thread made a snarky comment about Texas trading for Lee only to see him choke again in the postseason. At what point will we let the clutch/choker narratives die? Wouldn't Lee be a great example to look at to understand how these narratives are kind-of silly? He was known as a playoff assassin with the Phillies, which was confirmed after a monster ALCS with the Rangers. Then he got hammered twice in the '10 WS, followed by his performance in the '11 NLDS. Isn't the lesson from this: if you give a pitcher enough high-pressure games, he'll end up near his career averages?

Denny B,

Please note that you are now officially obligated to christen Cliff Lee the love child of Jesus Christ and Walter Johnson when he has a torrid five-game streak.

It's only fair: if you declare him a dog with a string of mediocre starts, you must declare him a god with a string of excellent starts. I personally look forward to your anointing of him as your new overlord.

Thanks DPatrone for starting the "inside sources" meme. It's exactly what BL needed

If a guy is having a bad year, there has to be an explanation other than "he's just having a bad year." You guys just don't get it.

I love dennyb coming on here every month or so and declaring a different player finished every time. He's like the grim reaper of BL. Today, Lee is washed up (based on the two months of pitching he points out) and as a bonus, Manuel has lost the team and should retire.

@JWeitzel: Isn't it a slap in the face to Lee to deal him now? He came to the Phils specifically because he said he liked the city, the fans, and the ball club. Now the team is ready to deal him two years into his contract? Where do you stand on this?

There is no reason to take a stand either way. He's not going anywhere. Like every other player in the major leagues, he's available for the right price. Lee's supposed "availability" is meaningless, and we should all recognize it as such.

That said, the "right price" for Lee should be higher than dictated by his performance because of the message it would send to future free agents. I think the cost of trading Lee is prohibitively high. Of course, for the "right" package, adios.

All I heard for the past 2 days was that the Phils were going to be very active and now all I'm hearing about is Blanton to the Orioles. Why do I think I'm going to be disappointed at noon tomorrow.

Lee's xFIP is 3.15 this year.

He's not having a terrible year...he's just had a bunch of bad luck and bad defense.

Note-

Everyone who loves the idea of Choo roaming the OF at CBP... But Please consider the following:

Repost from the last thread:

Choo hired Scott Boras as his agent and will become a free agent after the 2013 season. IMHO, I don't think Ruben wants to deal with Boras

Posted by: buy sell | Monday, July 30, 2012 at 03:15 PM
====================================================
Also found this on MLB.COM which confirms the statement above:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120730&content_id=35811618&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Excerpt:
'The Indians have known for 2 1/2 years that Choo is their property through the 2013 season and not a day longer, given that he's a five-tool talent who latched on with an agent -- Scott Boras -- known for getting his players to free agency as quickly as possible."
====================================================

I'm pretty out of it but has anyone at all said anything about Choo coming to Philly? Why in the world would the Indians trade him to us?

I'm weighing in from Vienna, Austria. I texted the fan base here - well at least the only other guy I know here who is a Phillies fan - and Central Europe votes a resounding NEIN/NO to trading Cliff Lee away. Keep Cliff Lee. I want to see him pitch again in red pin-stripes when I visit Philadelphia!

"Very heavy.....almost there"

I'm beginning to think the Phils will end up doing nothing. I hope I'm wrong

Ice-

Where did I say that Lee was "washed up"?

I said we can all make all of the excuses for his poor season as there are stars in the sky.

But at some point, all players get old. Lee will be 34 in August. He's thrown a TON of innings in the past decade. I am just saying that its not incievable that Cliff might just be on the downslide of his career. And that won't be good, when he's still owed 95 million dollars by a now dead last baseball team.

And Cholly admitted this weekend that his team has basically quit on him. What other explanation do you need, when the field manager says what he did a few days ago?

You really want a 70 year old guy trying to rebuild this thing in the next few years? I don't.

NEPP: There was a reporter who mentioned Phillies would be sellers and buyers, and said Choo is on their radar.

I'm with BAP in loving the idea of Choo on the team, even if I don't really understand how that would happen. He is a really, really good player.

I really don't understand why people want to shy away from players that are represented by Boras. Who cares? He represents a lot of players, most of which are very good. If you avoid his clients, you are shrinking the talent pool considerably.

Plus, Rube will overpay the guy he wants no matter who the agent is. John Boggs could've been a plumber and gotten Hamels that contract, and I'm pretty sure the same can be said for any player Amaro really wants. That is one stereotype about Rube that is absolutely 100% true.

denny b, are you aware that Charlie won't be rebuilding anything. That is Amaro's job.

Is the deadline at noon tomorrow or midnite tomorrow?

Choo would be great...but he's one of the best RFs in baseball...zero chance we get him in a trade.

I believe its at 4pm EST tomorrow.

Rich: Neither! It's at 4 PM, I believe.

TY NEPP

Soon it will be too late to get anything accomplished

TY Jack

I'd rather have Ty Nepp or Ty Jack in the lineup than Ty Wiggington.

Pence has been traded t Giants. Philly.com

Goby-

Cholly will be a part of the rebuilding (if he's still here past September). The manager always is a part of it.

This team, whether they want to admit it or not, is in rebuild mode. Is Cholly the right guy for that job? Don't think he is.

Oswalt's lookin' like crap again tonight. Someone might wanna round up him & Moyer & have an intervention.

Hunter Pence has been traded to the San Francisco Giants, according to a report by Ken Rosenthal, of Fox Sports.

The deal will send catcher Tommy Joseph and lefthander Josh Osich to the Phillies, plus cash,

e
Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/Report-Pence-deal-to-Giants-in-place.html#ixzz229Z1olnf
Watch sports videos you won't find anywhere else

I think the Philly.com post is from this morning. I saw that too and couldn't figure out if it was from the AM or what.

I think it is officially time to Permaban Rich.

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