Phillies juggling between offense, defense at 3B

Update 5:25 p.m. It appears the Phillies have decided on a solution for third base, a combination of hitting and glovework. According to Jim Salisbury on Twitter, infieder Kevin Frandsen has been spotted at Citizens Bank Park and could join the Phillies on their road trip tomorrow. Frandsen is hitting .302 with an International League-leading 34 doubles.

5:15 p.m. Placido Polanco and his troubled lower back were placed on the 15-day disabled list Thursday. The Phils will announce his replacement Friday.

The fragile 36-year-old is having the worst season of his career, hitting .255/.300/.328, including a brutal .133/.184/.156 in July (maybe someone can explain why his name continues to be linked in trade speculation). The Phils have relied on Ty Wigginton over the last few days, but his poor defense nearly cost his club the sweep in Wednesday's win over Milwaukee. It's likely that Wigginton and Mike Fontenot would share time in Polanco's sted. Fontenot could also be asked to start at second as the Phils continue to ease Chase Utley back into the grind.

For the bench, the Phils could go a couple, familiar directions, recalling utilityman Michael Martinez if they choose to be more defensive minded, or bring back Hector Luna, who can provide better pop off the bench.

Comments

[Willard Preacher]

Anyone see today's Iron Pigs lineup yet? Who's missing, Mini, Frandsen or Luna?

[GTown_Dave]

Just for fun I looked up the respective Defensive Runs Saved at 3B for Polanco & Wigginton this season. None of these stats are great, but I thought it might be interesting as a simple comparative between what we've seen when we go from Polanco (bad back & all) to Wigginton. So --

Polanco is a +4

Wigginton is a staggering -51

[Mike]

Frandsen apparently is in Philly; not in Pigs' lineup.

[Jack]

I agree with DH Phils that Shane will get a better contract than many on here are anticipating.

People seem to be taking Shanes stat line this season and assuming that's the player that teams will be buying.

Generally, teams are intelligent enough to understand that a player is more than just what he did last season. Shane has put together five seasons of being an above-average player. Three bad months doesn't change that. I think somewhere in the 3/25-30 range is just about right.

[Chris in VT]

3/25 would be a great deal for any team that signs Vic. But didn't he turn down 3/30 before the season? In which case his value has taken a pretty clear tumble.

[can_of_corn]

No no no no Mini-Mart, please? There is just something about him that adds a sense of amateurism to this team.

By the way, even though everyone speculates about a Brown platoon in the OF next year, I think Dom is off r00b's radar for both the near and distant future. In the midst of the Phils first half struggles, Dom would have been brought up had there been any confidence at all in his ability to contribute. I see him being protected and left relatively unexposed mostly for trade bait. Or left protected and exposed to languish in AAA until he finds another career.

[bay_area_phan]

Maybe Polanco can come back sometime in August & the Phillies can trade him in a post-deadline deal. They won't get anything in return, but it will save them $1M against next year's payroll -- the cost of declining his 2013 option.

[Kendrick Appreciation Society]

Thank goodness it's not Martinez. And it's a shame Polly is hurt because I bet we could have flipped him to the Yankees for a bag of balls. Speaking of trades, I hope we find a taker for Pence who is struggling, bring up Brown to see what we've got and keep Vic through the season.

[Chris in VT]

Dom will be given his (likely final) chance in Phillly next year to win a job at one of the OF spots. As horrifying a thought as it is to most BLers, I still wouldn't be surprised if the Phil's gave Dom a chance to win the CF position in ST next year, if it's still vacant.

[GTown_Dave]

Frandsen! :-D

[DH Phils]

I really wonder about this Dom Brown centerfield thing. I can see how it could be easier to read fly balls in CF because there is less hook/slice, but if that is a significant factor, why don't we see more exclusive centerfielders? I'm hard-pressed to think of a CF that didn't play the corner OF at some point in his career, and I can't remember a single CF who got totally confused while playing a corner.

[Willard Preacher]

Good to hear, GTown. If that's the case, then yeah, Rube isn't in "sell mode."

Sweep away, fellas!

[Jr.]

Hope it is Frandsen,he's earned a shot.Miswsed on Grilli,took 2 years for Kratz,maybe their is a 3rd one.

[bay_area_phan]

Calling up Frandsen is a good news, bad news kind of move:

The bad:

1. He was utterly wretched when he played for the Giants.

2. He isn't much of a defensive player at any position.

3. He's more of a 2nd baseman than a 3rd baseman.

The good:

1. He has consistently hit well in the minors, including his 2 years with the Phillies; he has truly earned his shot (even if his special vitamins helped him earn it).

2. He isn't Mini-Mart, which is who most of us expected they would call up.

Maybe this is an indication that Mini-Mart has finally played his way out of the Phillies' plans.

[GTown_Dave]

I think the back of Frandsen's jersey should read "Not Mini-Mart", rather than simply "Frandsen". It will help keep his performance in proper perspective.

[Willard Preacher]

And garner him a standing ovation in his first AB.

[Chris in VT]

DH - it does make sense on some level, but I agree that if you can't read the slice/hook on a fly ball you're probably not going to be a good OF, regardless of which position you're playing.

[buy sell]

Kevin Frandsen has been played mostly with LV for past 2 yrs... with an average of over .300.

He is not a HR hitter by any stretch, but over the 180 gms he has played in the past 2 yrs, he has over 200 hits with 49 doubles + 76 RBI's.

He apparently plays a variety of the IF positions with LV - listed as a SS on the current Pigs roster.

Is this a cause for concern? He has committed 11 error in 99 gms in 2012 - not sure how many err's for each position...

[MG]

Know why the Phils kept Wigginton know (knew Polanco going on the DL).

Wigginton is probably even worse defensively at 3B than even Helms. Unathletic, aging player who is not in good shape and doesn't have good reflexes/arm.

Wigginton won't be back next year either. Certainly not at $4M. Phils will buyout his option early ($500k) and let him hit FA.

Given his age, declining offensive numbers, and severe defensive/baserunning limitations, Wigginton is going to be hard-pressed to get a MLB guaranteed deal.

He's hard an average career, stuck around for more than a decade at the MLB level, and made his share of doe (more than $19M). Call that pretty successful career.

[MG]

BAP - I bet he has and probably based on his horrendous showing callup earlier this year. Phils finally finalized that what value in versatility he brings is overshadowed by other numerous limitations.

[MG]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/26/marlins-players-are-pretty-happy-to-see-hanley-ramirez-gone/

One guy I am glad the Phils stayed a million miles away from. Guillen quote was pretty blunt and he hinted several times this season that he pretty much thought Ramirez was unmotivated/not working hard even a outright malcontent.

[NEPP]

He's not Mini Mart.

That's all that matters.

[buy sell]

'Phils finally finalized that what value in versatility he brings is overshadowed by other numerous limitations. '

MG - hope so...

[NEPP]

That was the main reason the BoSox dumped him all those years ago too...this is hardly a new issue for Hanley.

He's a bum.

[GTown_Dave]

Hanley Ramirez belongs in the Wasted Ability Hall of Shame.

[Jr.]

Good news Frandsen not in pigs line up
Bad news neither is Mini

[Mickden56]

Kevin Frandsen. Another dung heaper. Thanks for less than nothing.

[buy sell]

Mickden56 - " Kevin Frandsen. Another dung heaper."

as opposed to Ty Guy?

[norbertods]

Completely off topic but I noticed JW's got Tool's 10,000 days on his playlist right now. Love Tool but that album was close to unlistenable. 70 minutes of avant garde noise interspersed with some mean drumming from Danny Carey and Maynard's trademark voice. Sorry for the non sequitor post. Back to discussing which Iron Pig is most deserving of a trip to the "show".

[NEPP]

From MLBTradeRumors: The Marlins believe Reyes will play better now that Hanley Ramirez has been traded.

I wonder who Hanley was hanging out with...

[Bonehead]

NEPP - Interesting. The same sort of comment was made about Cano when Melky left the Yankers.

[Luis]

I supported Polanco to a certain extent. Wouldnt say support but wasnt a detractor neither. However no way do you bring Glass Joe Polly back next year. Rube is going to have to work something out.

[Bonehead]

Luis - I agree.
During this year, we all knew 3B would be an issue for 2013. But, we thought that maybe Polly's option year could be among the potential solutions.

Not, not a chance.

[Greg]

If everyone had to guess Dom Browns OPS from his brief mlb stint last year (without cheating) im curious as to how many would be correct.

[Gregm]

Greg, I'd guess .710 without looking.

[Cyclic]

.705

But I'm intentionally guessing low cause I hope I will be pleasantly surprised.

[Chris in VT]

I do know his OPS+ was right around 100.

[aksmith]

I don't think the FO has soured as much on Dom as people seem to think. His knee is still not 100 percent. He's been playing with a brace.

Were he healthy, I think he's be the first outfield callup. And he still may be. But they want him to be a long term solution in the outfield and if they call him up too soon, that's another year off his service clock. Teams in the playoff hunt sometimes don't care about that. But a team planning for an expensive future with an aging core may care about it.

[GBrettfan]

Dom gets injured every year, and often more than once a year, it seems!

[Bedrosian's Beard]

GBrett: Bi-Weekly, I think.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Greg - it was .725ish. His bat isn't keeping him in the minors. right now, his health is contributing as much as his glove to his delayed return.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I guess Pirates don't intend to trade Starling Marte since he's hitting leadoff tonight.

[CN]

Well there goes my dream of getting Marte for Pence...

[clout]

It will be interesting to see how things go for Marte over the next 250 ABs.

He strikes out at an astonishing rate for a 10-12 HR guy and doesn't walk at all. He does everything else though.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

clout - he's the epitome of the "nobody ever walked off the island" ethos. He's a speed and contact guy but, he has a very quick bat. 38 doubles, 8 triples and 12 homers in a full season in the Eastern League last year has turned into 21 doubles, 13 triples and 12 homers in 99 games in the international League. It looks like the homers will come.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I had hoped Marte's profile as a center fielder and his high K rate might motivate the Pirates to make him available in favor of a power threat, corner guy like Pence. Seems a good bet to be a guy who will be Jimmy Rollins esque in the leadoff spot and Victorino-esque in center in a few years.

[bay_area_phan]

The Giants' radio announcers used to use that phrase to explain Pedro Feliz: "Nobody ever walked off the island." Of course, this was like 10 or 12 years after he left he island, so I'm not sure how applicable it was.

[Phlipper]

Hope the Mets lose tonight.

I made a bet a couple of months back (when the Mets were something like 4 games ahead) with a friend that's a Mets fan - on which team would have the better record at the end of the season.

I happened to see him on the West Coast a couple of weeks ago, and I tried to pay off the bet before the season was up, so I wouldn't have to put up with him chirping about winning the bet all the rest of the season. He didn't take the money because he wanted to be able to keep chirping.

It would be hilarious if the Mets actually collapse again. I would almost feel sorry for my long-suffering friend.

Almost.

Speaking of bets - still welshing, eh MG? I'm surprised. I never pegged you for a welsher.

[Bubba]

Phlipper-
We're in last place, you don't need to be sorry to anyone about any team.

[Kendrick Appreciation Society]

Yeah, Polly is definitely gone next year. Front office will need to fill at least 3B, LF and CF next season.

[Greg]

OPS+ 98, .725 OPS. Good job team.

The point is that this kid should not be given up on. The phillies obviously haven't.

If Pence wasn't the obvious upgrade on the market last year we might think a lot more about Dom Brown right now. Who knows - certainly I don't. But we should all be excited about finding out.

[phillesh]

As bad as Wigginton has been on defense- and we are all witness to his terribleness (mainly at 3rd base, but also at 1st base) - he actually spent a few games at shortstop for the Orioles several years ago! how bad were the Orioles that they actually started Wigginton at shortstop? I'll answer that: Extremely bad.

[Will Schweitzer]

My fear is that they pick up the $4mil option on Wigginton for next season.

What happened to all of the talk over the winter of Mayberry having an opportunity to play 3b? Could he be any worse defensively than Wiggy?

[The Truth Injection]

I would not be surprised if the Phillies declined Wiggy's option and then signed him at a lower number.

He isn't a starter but I still think he would be a nice guy to have on the bench as a right-handed bat with some pop- at the right price though. Maybe a million for Wiggy is okay. Definitely wouldn't exceed that amount.

[The Truth Injection]

On the Vic front- it is also important to remember that whatever he signs in the off-season there are two reactions to that from many on here. Say he signs at 3/30 or 3/33.

If the Phillies make that deal:

"Awful. Why would you spend 11 million a year on a guy who struggled in 2012 and has defensive skills that rely on his speed which is sure to decline by the end of the contract. That last year will look brutal."

If any other team makes that deal:

"Really nice value to get a guy like Vic at a price like that. Can't believe Roob let him walk."

[That Guy]

"My fear is that they pick up the $4mil option on Wigginton for next season."

No shot. Not only would that be a huge overpay but they'd also be on the hook for sending compensation back to Colorado to complete the trade. If they don't pick up the option than no compensation is necessary.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

In terms of relative likelihood, Wigginton's option getting exercised is not a remote possibility. Wigginton returning on a $1M/1yr. deal is less likely than him moving on in a waiver deal in August.

[Jbird]

Phlipper: as a proud Welsh-American I am shocked and appalled at your offensive language. I expect a full retraction, apology, and a substantial donation to a Cardiff based charity as penance. I know Schweitzer will have my back on this one.

[Jbird]

TTI: I'd be pretty happy if the Phillies got Vic on either of those deals. Of course it'll depend on the context though. If Upton or Cabrera sign for significantly less money or more money it'll impact perception.

[Will Schweitzer]

Jbird: I suspect that you're lying. I know this because you're a Welsh-American, and they are a people known for lying about their reaction to comments on the internet.

My concerns about Wiggy came after Jon Heyman tweeted: #yankees considered wigginton to aid in a-rods absence. but #phils aren't offering him up. concern about polancos back?

Why on earth wouldn't they ship him off to NY? Would doing so mean they have to send compensation to Colorado?

[Iceman]

"Why on earth wouldn't they ship him off to NY?"

Because they want him for the rest of this year? It has nothing to do with exercising his option next year. That has about as much a chance of happening as re-signing Blanton.

[Fatalotti]

Placido Polanco was a good signing by the Phils that has simply not worked out for them over the second half of the deal. While he provided great (maybe the best in baseball?) defense at the hot corner, his bat has been a complete joke since the clock struck midnight on May 1, 2011. He posted a .591 OPS from 5/1 until the end of 2011, and he has a .628 OPS this year (good for a 70 OPS+). Neither are acceptable from really anyone on your team, even a 3B with great defense.

There is some thought that his defense has slipped, but I haven't watched him enough this year to know if that's the case. If still can provide adequate (or above average) 3B defense, he should be able to take up a utility infielder role for some team. But his days as a starting infielder are likely coming to an end.

[Jbird]

that hurts Will.

Ryan Roberts has gone 1 for 4 with 3 walks and a homerun in his 2 games with TB. He's struggled this year but his ops+ is 10 pts ahead of Polly and 2 behind Wiggy. He's made 1 fewer error in 60 games at 3rd than Wiggy has in 20 games. Why weren't the Phils interested again? Phillies need to be in "throw crap against the wall and see what sticks" mode at 3rd.

[Jbird]

I might also mention that Youkilis has a 127 ops+ since moving to Chicago.

[Chris in VT]

Passing on Youk when the Sawx were giving him (+5 mil) away for the equivalent of
Schwimer + Mini-Mart was egregious at the time and still is.

[HammRadio]

Re: Roberts

While he would definitely be a improvement if he can gave you the .770-780 especially with better defense over Wiggy.

before he was moved...

his OPS+ was 74. Polly's is 70. Wiggy is 84.

Why do we constantly scream about guys who +/- might be the same guy they are replacing. "Hey Casey Blake just got DFA'd... we should pick him up"....

[NEPP]

Passing on Youk was brutal. Just brutal.

[Jbird]

Hamm: because Roberts is younger and a better fielder than Wiggington and has had better seasons more recently than Wiggy. He's also healthier than Polanco and under team control for another 2 years.

[NEPP]

Youk's bat might have been just enough to stabilize us before Utley/Howard came back and were effective.

And he was basically free for the taking and he also had a team option for 2013.

[Jbird]

Hamm: Roberts has also played all over the infield the last 2 years so worst case scenario you have your utility infielder under contract for next year. Last year his ops+ was 106.

[Jbird]

There have been a number of guys moved for peanuts who would have really helped this club this year and next: Youk, Roberts, and Frieri.

[NEPP]

I think its interesting that the FO basically signaled that they thought the sesaon was over by passing on Youkilis for free but now a month later they wont trade Wigginton for salary relief because we're still in it...despite being far closer to the WC when Youk was available.

[Iceman]

"Youk's bat might have been just enough to stabilize us before Utley/Howard came back and were effective."

Can he pitch in relief or spot start also? If not, his acquisition would have won us approximately zero games.

[johnnysanz3]

Youkilis would of been nice. Of course assuming Boston was willing to deal him to the Phillies at all, or maybe Youk didn't want to go to the phillies, or a NL team, and Boston was trying to send him somewhere he wanted to go.

But no, I'm sure it's just because Roob is a boob.

[NEPP]

You're right, of course. There's no way the possibility of more run scoring in any of those games might have changed the outcome.

Especially considering the RedSox are paying him to play for Chicago right now and literally got Mini Mart and a crappy RHP in return.

[Jbird]

Iceman: Frieri could have. He was traded for the equivalent of Pettibone and Harold Garcia. He's closing for Anaheim now and we're talking about trading our starting center fielder for guys not 1/3 as good.

[Iceman]

NEPP- you've won me over. Youkilis would have absolutely carried them from June 25th on, when they were 35-40 and 8 games back. He'd have single-handedly eliminated the problems with the starting pitching and bullpen that was blowing games left and right. Kevin "The Solution" Youkilis.

I can't believe Rube didn't see it like you did.

[Iceman]

Jbird- I'll buy the Frieri thing, though I don't think anyone could have predicted he'd be that good for Anaheim.

Still, the bullpen should have been addressed in the off-season and certainly should have been addressed when guys started dropping like flies due to injuries/ineffectiveness.

[NEPP]

So, you're saying that swapping out a 70 OPS+ hitter with a 127 OPS+ hitter is a move you would not be in favor of doing?

Mind you, while Polly might be a great defender, Youk is still average at 3B (and miles better than Wigginton).

To be clear, you would rather have Polanco as a starter than Kevin Youkilis.

[Jbird]

NEPP: Iceman's right, no one has ever won more games by scoring more runs. give it up.

[Jbird]

Iceman: I b8tched at the time when he was traded. It was a weird early season trade and I thought San Diego didn't get enough back. I don't know why they made the move.

[Iceman]

For the record, from the time Youkilis was dealt until the AS Break- 12 games, in which the Phils went 2-10 and the season really cratered- Phillies pitching gave up 68 runs, or 5.7 RPG. They scored 43, or 3.6 RPG.

You could have traded for Mike Trout and he wouldn't have been able to save the team from itself during that stretch.

[NEPP]

Since the Youk trade:

Polly: 70 PA, .190 AVG/.250 OBP/.463 OPS
Wiggy: 56 PA, .167 AVG/.268 OBP/.560 OPS
Youk: 110 PA, .277 AVG/.373 OBP/.857 OPS

Yes, there is no reason to suspect we would be better off with Youk at 3B.

[NEPP]

4 of those unwinnable losses were 1 run games.

FWIW. Flip those around and you're looking at 6-6 in that stretch...

[R.Billingsly]

Iceman: In that 2-10 stretch you speak of, they had FIVE one run games. You don't think having a good bat in the lineup could have possibly translated into a win or two?

[R.Billingsly]

I'm sorry, NEPP is right. Only FOUR one run losses.

[Fatalotti]

Iceman, I don't think Youk would have been the "solution", but you're making a ridiculous argument. Certainly the bullpen and the starting pitching have been brutal this year, and have led to lots of loss games. But that's beside the point. The Phillies were presented with an opportunity to make a fairly significant upgrade at 3B for incredibly cheap, and didn't do it. Whether that would have definitely won them more games is impossible to know, but it certainly couldn't have hurt.

For the record, the Phillies lost four 1-run games between June 25th and the AS break. It might have been nice to have Youk's .990 OPS over that stretch instead of Polly's .552 OPS.

[NEPP]

I do find it interesting that there is pretty much no position you can take around here that someone will dispute...no matter how ridiculous that dispute sounds.

About the only thing everyone agrees on is that Mini Mart should never see a Phillies uniform ever again. I mean, saying that Youkilis is a better option at 3B than Polanco is a no-brainer...but still there is pushback on it.

[NEPP]

The damning part of it is that team option that would have solved our 3B issues next year...even if you think that adding him this year was a meaningless addition due to pitching/bullpen issues (as I am understanding Iceman's point to be).

I doubt we get a 3B who puts up better numbers than Youkilis next year...even if we made a blockbuster trade for Headley...Youk probably outhits him.

[Fatalotti]

Also, Ernesto Frieri was coming off of a two nice seasons with the Padres, and his road numbers showed no reasons for fear that he was a product of Petoc, as he held opponents to a .677 OPS away from Petco last year and a .647 OPS away from Petco in 2010.

[R.Billingsly]

I count 15 one run losses on the season. If they win half of those games...

[Fatalotti]

NEPP, even with Mini-Mart, there is still pushback, but not about the fact that he's clearly not a ML player; people will point out that we overvalue how much his negative value actually hurts the Phillies.

People just need to argue, I guess, something of which I'm most often found guilty.

[mm]

This is also the year where every risky contract Kenny Williams has taken on in the past 3 years is clicking and coming together(rios, dunn, peavy, youkilis).

[The Truth Injection]

Iceman: You are banging your head into a wall my friend. It's best to just remember that people only understand offense.

They also forget that many on here were calling for a selloff on June 25th.

Also, NEPP is being a little fuzzy in his argument. It's fine to say that Youk has a 127 OPS+ since being traded but that stupidly presupposes he would have done the same thing here.

Polanco's slash line on June 25th was: .278/.313/.361/.674

Youkilis slash line was: .233/.315/.377/.692

So yes an upgrade- but not a 70 vs 127 OPS+ upgrade. Not to mention- many in baseball thought Youk looked like he was done. He has shown in Chicago that he really wasn't.

[mm]

well, if we had won 7 of our 15 1 run losses we'd still be only right around .500 and the nats would be still be where they are. So would make the WC berth easier, but there's no reality where we'd be in contention for the division(barring an epic aug/sept meltdown from the nats).

[NEPP]

Here's the thing, TTI. Youk was a no-risk move. He didn't cost anything and the BoSox paid his salary the rest of the way. It didnt hurt to roll the dice on him like the WhiteSox did.

I mean, other than losing Mini Mart and one of our crappy AAA RHP relievers.

[NEPP]

***Not to mention- many in baseball thought Youk looked like he was done. He has shown in Chicago that he really wasn't.
***

I recall a lot of people thinking he merely needed a change of scenery and they discounted 2 months of poor performance in favor of several straight years of AS level hitting including even 2011. There was also the understanding of clubhouse issues between Bobby V and Youk as well as the emergence of Middlebrooks as their 3B of the future.

[Fatalotti]

So many thought Youk was done at 33, even though his 2009-2011 OPS+ was 141, and even though he's always been at least passable defensively at 3B.

I mean, what are we failing to understand? Youk was having a down year and dealing with some injury issue, but just last year, the guy posted an OPS+ of 122, and he's always been incredibly adept at taking walks, something that doesn't just disappear overnight.

Meanwhile back in the Hall of the Phillies, Polly is ACTUALLY DONE. He had an OPS+ of 90 from 2009-2011, and as of the time of the trade, there was no reason to think that he wasn't going to continue to decline, and there was no hope that he would "bounce back". At the very least with Youk, there was definitely a hope (and a well founded one) that he would bounce back. And would you look at that...he has.

I don't think it was completely shortsighted of RAJ to not go after Youk, and who knows if the Red Sox would have traded him here, but it still doesn't mean that we can't be unhappy that the trade didn't take place. The Phillies are a better team with Youk this year, and would much likely be better with him here next year.

[Dr. Strangeglove]

Frandsen has played good defense for the IronPigs, at SS last year and mostly 2B this year, and he's miles ahead of MiniMart offensively. I'm relieved they made the right choice.

[denny b.]

I wonder if the Nats would be interested in taking Schneider back? Or if anyone would take him to be a backup catcher?

I have a hard time believing they are going to ship Kratz back to LV now, that Schneeder is about ready to return. That wouldn't send the best of signs to the fanbase.