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Tuesday, July 31, 2012

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"Hunter Pence deal with the Giants does not include Gary Brown, Brandon Belt or Kyle Crick according to Philies source

Posted by: Slocs | Tuesday, July 31, 2012 at 12:28 PM"

If true, Rube has failed.

JimBowdenESPNxm
Hunter Pence deal with the Giants does not include Gary Brown, Brandon Belt or Kyle Crick according to Philies source

Are you fvcking kidding me, Rube???

Do the Giants have any deaf OFs or French Canadian relievers that we targeted instead?

"This is the move I'll question. If we want to compete next year, isn't Pence going to be a big part of that?"

There's a middle ground between keeping Pence to compete in 2013 and trading him and forgetting about next year. That middle ground is massive.

The only excuse for this is that the Padres/Indians have said "This is who we want from the Giants," and that's who Rube is targeting to acquire.

Outside of that, there is no excuse.

Did we just buy really low on Lincecum?

Come on, RAJ! Don't undervalue Pence! Don't be weak!

Gelb: "Still hearing Wigginton to Yankees is a distinct possibility before 4 pm."

Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease ...

I'm guessing the deal is centered around the very Sebastian Valle like catcher. Move one of them to third maybe?

Tommy Joseph goes to Phils in Hunter Pence deal
by DKnobler via twitter

FAIL

These threads are coming too fast.... :)

Barry Zito on way to Philly - kidding...

"I'm guessing the deal is centered around the very Sebastian Valle like catcher. Move one of them to third maybe?"

What a stupid, stupid decision, if true.

The only upside to this will be that Amaro, like many of us wanted, is going to spend big on a FA this off-season. But good God, you can get more return than that for Pence.

MASSIVE FAIL if we got Joseph.

MASSIVE FAIL

FIRE RUBE NOW!

DKnobler ‏@DKnobler
Tommy Joseph goes to Phils in Hunter Pence deal

So Headley, Bourn or Chin Soo Woo would all have to be possibilities then for 2013.

That's brutal.

Matt Gelb ‏@magelb
Still hearing Wigginton to Yankees is a distinct possibility before 4 pm.

Wonder if we'll get Ibanez back? That would be some irony! I'm kidding. Ibanez can't be cheaper than Wiggy.

Very nervous about the idea of losing both Pence & Vic. Sophist's middle ground is indeed vast, and have no idea where the Phils end up.

Great. So we're looking at Pence to SF for Aubrey Huff & a Panda hat?

Can we wait until we find out what the deal is before we pass judgment?

If Vic and Pence are both gone, I think it signals that Rube will go hard after someone like Michael Bourne next season. Or he could try to sign Vic again, though I think that is less likely.

Tommy Joseph to the Phils is what's being reported. One of Giants top 5 prospects coming into the season. Here's one writeup:

I like the way he improved his defense, also has standout power, hit 22 homers in High-A at age 19/20. Strike zone judgment remains poor and precludes higher grade, but he projects as a regular catcher if he can improve his approach.

Rube is just clearing salary so he can offer Josh Hamilton a 10 year deal in the off-season.

Who's Tommy Joseph again, please?

AT, yes Vic was traded, but he can always be signed as an FA once the season is over.

All of you lamenting the fact that they'll have to replace Vic in the OF next season miss the point that Vic's 2013 replacement may very well be.....Vic.


Also, moving Pence will eventually be seen as MORE IMPORTANT than moving Vic, who can still be brought back.

His salary will be much higher, IMHO, in 2013 than will Vic's, and the salary relief in 2013 will allow tham more flexibility.

Maybe Valle or Joseph will be in a trade for Headley?

Tommy Joseph?? Are you serious??

Next year's OF will be Brown, Nix and Mini Mart?

I'm hearing joseph and Schierholtz....Boo!!!

Josh Lindblom ‏@JoshLindblom52
Thanks to everyone for all of the great memories. Couldn't be more excited to join an organization that is dedicated to bring a championship

Oh no - Tommy Joseph - means Phillies caved. Let's see how much cash was included.

I guess the Luxury Tax ceiling for 2012 and possibly 2013, and the budgetary concerns to get under that ceiling is king for the Phils.

Despite what quite a few posters have been denying for a while.

I seem to remember somebody saying that the Phils don't need to worry about budgets.

r00b is just cleaning salary.

Baseball America had Joseph as the Giants 2nd rated prospect coming into the season.

"Very nervous about the idea of losing both Pence & Vic. Sophist's middle ground is indeed vast, and have no idea where the Phils end up."

Bob, Vic is only lost for the next 2 months.

He can always be signed as an FA in the offseason.

DH Phils- we're passing judgment on the reported deal. That's why I'm stipulating my criticism with 'if true.'

If true, and we're getting Joseph and Schierholtz for Pence, that is a massive, massive failure on account of the FO.

***I'm hearing joseph and Schierholtz....Boo!!!***

I think I just threw up in my mouth.

I didnt like Nate Schierholtz when his name was Ben Francisco. I doubt I'll like him any better now.

GTown, agree. The 2012 salary dump has commenced.

So, RAJ said the Phils weren't "selling" but rather "improving" yet these moves all reek of shedding pay role.

Is he that shortsighted to make moves to get/stay under the tax and take a "we'll figure it out in the offseason" approach?

And I'm only half-kidding...

Sickels does not consider Ethan Martin one of the Dodgers Top 20 prospects. BA has him at #17.

BA also rates their prospects according to chances of ever making the big leagues, which they call risk factors. The best rating is "safe" in that the player is so good he is a safe bet to actually see MLB time.

The highest risk level is "extreme" meaning that the player may have talent but is a real high-risk guy, a longshot to ever make the big leagues.

BA rates Martin "extreme."

Martin is repeating Double A at age 23 (not young for the level) and has improved his BB/9 which is his main problem. In doing so, however, his K/9 has declined a bit.

Martin throws a 95 mph fastball and a slider and changeup that he only occasionally can command.

I doubt he ever makes it, but if he does, it's likely as a bullpen guy.

Still, for a loaner like Vic, Lindblom & Martin are probably about as good as you can get.

Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a salary dump. It's what most of us wanted them to do so they had cash free to make a run at some marquee FA's in the off-season.

But that return for Pence, if true, is unacceptable.

Watch us make the playoffs after all.

I don't think that Ruben is quite the master of retreats that Robert E. Lee was....

Is there something so bad about Joseph that I'm missing?

Pence for Terry Mulholland,JT Snow and Barry Bonds.

Vic for FP Santangelo and Eric Karros

clout, not sure why you're down on Martin making it. As you stated, it sounds like he'd fit right the hell in!

"Martin throws a 95 mph fastball and a slider and changeup that he only occasionally can command."

Gelb: "Giants likely paying chunk of Pence's 2012 salary."

Oh, well then that makes it all worthwhile to me, the paying fan.

r00b better shock the hell out of me & go balls out in FA, or it's f*ck this noise for me.

***I doubt he ever makes it, but if he does, it's likely as a bullpen guy.***

We are in complete agreement on Martin.

Im pretty sure a straight dump without adequate youth return is not what we wanted.

IF the Giants are taking all of Pence's salary, then I'm really happy with Tommy Joseph. I recognize that I'd be in the minority.

Here's a nice and fuzzy low-analytic article on him just for grins.
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Giants-catch-winner-in-good-hitting-Tommy-Joseph-3393521.php

I'm betting one of the redundant catchers now goes in a later move. They're practically the same guy at the same level. That's the only thing that makes sense.

Rube did understand that he didnt have to trade Pence today, right?

It feels like he forgot that part.

Do this mean Reggie Taylor and Lou Collier are being called up?

KAS- the difference between Joseph and Brown is massive. We need a guy like Brown to improve our system, and he even fits a position of need going forward. As clout said last night, we have Joseph's clone (Valle) already in our system. It's not only a weak return, but redundant.

Is there something so bad about Joseph that I'm missing?

He can't help the team at all right now?

Maybe if this includes Blackburn and Panick it may not be so bad. With Nate S./Joseph included as well.

Yo...new thread.

Iceman, I think anyone advocating a "salary dump" methodology was also hanging their hat on getting some good young MLB READY prospects. As it's shaping up, next year will be the heavy duty payroll guys (Hamels, Paps, Doc, Lee, Howard) and a bunch of role players. It's going to look like the 2000-2001 Sixers with Iverson and a bunch of Raja Bells.*

*note 00-01 Sixers did make the NBA Finals...

I think the main knock on Joseph is that he has had a tough time adjusting to AA so far this season -- so this .667 of a season proves he's a stiff. That and BL wanted someone major-league ready... because we're sick and tired of Ruben Amaro planning for the times past 2013.

I just got a funny mental image of an empty field, all our players having been traded for salary relief. And since we know RAJ can't get 100% salary relief on Howard, Utley, etc., we'd probably still have a $100 million payroll for that empty field.

So now we have 3 nice catching prospects in the organization now? Joseph, Valle, Lino?

And oh yeah, a major league catcher still under team control for 1.5 years.

And Joseph can play first, which is great since we have a 1B being paid 25M for the next 100 yrs.

Next year's OF will be Brown, Nix and Mini Mart?

Posted by: Willard Preacher | Tuesday, July 31, 2012 at 12:37 PM

Impossible. Mini-Mart will be playing 3rd base.

I see salary dump all over the Pence move. But here's the reality. We can tout Pence's numbers, but he's been pretty mediocre this season. He's easily pitched to. His fielding is uneven. And he doesn't use his speed. So, what's the other GM going to give up to get him and his somewhat bloated salary? Not much.

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