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Tuesday, June 12, 2012

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sad

Our Motto is Apocalypse Now!

i think kendrick and blanton don't ever want to be traded. i think they love it here so much, that if they suck the big bannana nobody would take them in a trade and we'd never get rid of them! personally i'm not one to boo my phils but these guys are making me start to pucker my lips bigtime. i wonder how loud we can all boo them from a seat on the bandwagon? i don't ever want to jump off the wagon. but i sure can boo from it! i think it's been a longgggg time since we fans showed our dipleasure.

have you been to games this year? people boo. they boo when things go badly. it's a reaction not a protest.

Positives from this game
Fontenot made some good plays at 3b
Rollins got some hits before he popped up at a big spot.
Thome slid into 2b and stayed in the game.

The negatives are many and obvious- you don't win many games when you give up 11 runs.
9.5 games behind is not an enviable position.

The Phillies are 2.5 games behind St. Louis in the WC race, and I doubt that many BLers would count St. Louis out.

That said, they are also behind 7 other teams in the WC race, and 5.5 games behind the 2nd SC slot.

At some point we're going to be reading numbers on the order of: "only X teams in history have made up 5 games on 7 different teams at this point in the season to reach the playoffs."

At the point where the deficit is large enough behind as many as 7 teams that no or few teams in history was able to recover, it will be time to close the door on the season. Even with Doc, Utley, and Howard back and contributing, something of a long shot to begin with, this team is not going to be good enough to make a historic surge in the second half.

Boston is also 5.5 games behind two teams in the WC race, and trails 6 teams as opposed to 7 teams.

Sorry - 5 teams.

Hard to believe, but St. Louis is at 31-31 with a +51-run differential - tied for best in the league.

Their expected record is 36-26

Let's play: How To Spend $11M (Jonathan Papelbon's 2012 salary) on Bullpen Help:

$4M -- Jonathan Broxton -- 23 games, 14 saves, 2 blown saves, 1.59 ERA, 4.21 xFIP, 1.24 WHIP

$4M -- Darren Oliver -- 24 games, 1.71 ERA, 3.05 xFIP, 1.00 WHIP, 1.92 BAA, 9.4 K/9

$1.75M -- Fernando Rodney -- 30 games, 18 saves, 1 blown save, 0.94 ERA, 2.91 xFIP, 0.77 WHIP

$1.35M -- J.P. Howell -- 21 games, 4.08 ERA, 4.84 xFIP, 1.25 WHIP, .213 BAA, .179 BAA against left-handers

Total 2012 salary: $11.1M.

Obviously, I am not claiming that RAJ should have been prescient enough to sign all, or even some, of the guys on my list -- all of whom, I will readily admit, have been carefully cherry-picked from a free agent list that includes far more flops than successes. There is no denying that it can be very difficult to put together a good bullpen. On the other hand, considering the way Papelbon has been used, and the awfulness of the rest of our pen, I think it is more than fair to criticize the off-season PROCESS.

Not even a full year removed from setting a franchise record for regular season wins the Phillies have become a $173 million dollar payroll which ranges from sub-par to absolute suck in every single aspect of the game. In its own sad way, that's very impressive. Not just any ball club could collapse upon itself so rapidly, & so thoroughly.

Can we all collectively agree to stop pretending that Kyle Kendrick is a major league caliber pitcher?

But there is still 99 games left and when the guys come back we will go on second half run. Cholly has them playing really good. This is a second half team. Blah blah blah. If you see what the rest of us see. This team sucks. Plain and simple. Yeah fake tough hits the nail on the head for sure!

Hate to say it, but at this point, I'm actively rooting against the team. I don't trust RAJ to do the right thing (sell) at the deadline unless the Phils are completely buried. The number one overall draft pick would be nice compensation too.

Jesus H, the Kendrick debate again? Of course Kendrick is a major league caliber pitcher. He's a 5th/6th starter. Look around the league, do some actual f$@;$ing research, and recognize that EVERY 5th starter implodes at some point. I they didn't, they wouldn't be 5th starters!

Charlie was maddening when they were winning. In my mind, the best thing they can do to introduce positive change is to replace him. Whatever degree of control he may have once had over the team is gone. He seems as frustrated and powerless as we the fans. That should not be.

I remember being in favor to signing Joe Nathan to a 2 year deal like Texas did. Then I was told by the omnipotent Clout that he was finished as a closer.

Is Manuel really planning to start Blanton tonight? With his team circling the drain, I can't see how affording Cole Hamels 2 extra days of rest, while Kendrick and Blanton pitch batting practice, is a luxury he can afford.

Of course KK is a major league caliber pitcher. He's just a very poor one, and not worth giving a 2-Yr, $7 M contract to. That being said, he's not the problem with the team. All the injuries have absolutely shredded this team, and what little strengths that have remained have largely been underwhelming this season.

Sitting this far back is tough enough to overcome, but sitting behind this many teams is going to be their real downfall.

How about some love for Marlon Byrd at league minimum? J/K You can bet the onus for this nosedive causes the inevitable firing of Greg Gross or Dubee Dubee Doo. We all know that makes a clear statement. How can you sell at the deadline when you have crap that mo one wants to buy?

Its just not our year.

I am at the acceptance phase of the grief cycle.

Silver lining: JRoll's OBP is finally up to .300 on the year.

He's also posting an .887 OPS in June so far.

Is the video of the Pence play online somewhere? I'm up to starting this day with a good strong laugh.

Charlie was maddening when they were winning. In my mind, the best thing they can do to introduce positive change is to replace him. Whatever degree of control he may have once had over the team is gone. He seems as frustrated and powerless as we the fans. That should not be.

Posted by: limoguy

Yeah it's pretty safe to say that at this point he has lost the team. Like I said last week, if I'm him I'm begging to be fired. Why does he want to subject himself to this team anymore?

And Utley getting booed in Clearwater last night? This fanbase might finally have its edge back.

I guess KK didn't have another complete game shutout, eh?

Does anyone have an issue with benching Pence after yet another gaffe like last night? I understand this team doesn't even have 8 positional starters as it is and no bench to speak of but at what point do you make a statement as a manager? Enough is enough. And if you are Ruben Amaro, Jr. you can't tell me that Dom Brown's defense is going to hold him back anymore. Pence is hands down the worst defensive outfielder I have seen in this city. Maybe he's still trying to get his legs back after rowing with the bread loaves?

If Charlie didn't seem frustrated, I'd wonder if he had a pulse or whether he'd lost all his marbles.

I want to enter that acceptance phase that NEPP has achieved. But I feel frustrated for the reasons GTown stated: from such a great team last year to such a poor one this year? That's hard to swallow. I try to be philosophical like Fata by recognizing the toll of the injuries. It's harder to accept on days when the team scores lots of runs but the pitching sucks and days when the pitching is brilliant but the team can't push across the one more run needed for a W.

I've been telling people that my goal for the Phillies this year is to NOT finish in the basement of the NL East.

I want to finish my career in Philadelphia......sike!

i would not equate florida baseball fans to the phillies "fanbase". they are basically morons down there.

btw, some of the posts in this thread are real head scratchers

one guy asks if manuel is really planning to start blanton tonight. uhh, no. look at the probables. it says cole hamels. where are you getting this exactly?

then the one guy who says he's rooting against the team. that's about the dumbest thing i've ever heard in my life

i would not equate florida baseball fans to the phillies "fanbase". they are basically morons down there.

They are morons up here too.

i would not equate florida baseball fans to the phillies "fanbase". they are basically morons down there.

They are morons up here too.

Posted by: Joe D

Guy in the elevator I rode up on mentioned "Yea, they're so bad. Did you hear they were booing Utley in FL? He looked so bad and struck out swinging a lot."

//rolls eyes

Well, that game was a swift kick in the pants. I keep hoping the team hits rock bottom and starts working it's way back up the standings.

I hope that the boos stem from the fact that people feel like he misled the front office on his health. I would get right in his face and boo him for that.

I've taken out the shovel and begun digging.

On the plus side, last night Brody Colvin re-entered the rotation and pitched well. Cody Asche and Zach Collier continued hitting well over .300, and future-phuture phillie Mike Olt went 2 for 6 with a run scored. He's hitting .350 with 6 homeruns over his last 10 games.

Even I can't get a break. The lady is freakin' taking me to court?!!!

What a year it's been thus far Phillies fans. What a year it's been.

What's next? Booing Doc?

I feel like the Phanatic gets sued on a bi-annual basis.

Hunter Dense just misplayed another ball in right.

Re: Blanton starting: "where are you getting this exactly?"

From the 3-4 posts in teh game thread that stated as much, jerkoff.

This team makes me sad. What's worse, however, is that I keep coming back for more punishment every night. My 7-10pm would be better served reading a book or watching AFI's Top 100 Movies. Instead, I watch a bunch of guys kick a baseball all over the place.

Hunter Pence is actively hurting this team. Forget about his atrocious fielding, the stat they showed last night killed me:

Since May 11, Hunter Pence is hitting .103 with RISP.

.103! From your 3-hole hitter! Unacceptable.

If losing 9 of 10 isn't rock bottom, I dread the thought of what the bottom will look like.

Four hits from your leadoff hitter and 7 hits from the bottom third of the order is new way to lose. I suppose it's too much to expect that, when the pitching staff finally gets it together, that they'll keep scoring runs like they have over the last several weeks.

The Phils are sellers come deadline time, right? I mean, they have to be. Right?

If I was a member of this Phils squad, I would be tuning Charlie out too. He basically rips the team on a daily basis to the media. I wouldn't want to hear my manager constantly telling everyone that "we can't do anything right" or "we're just not a very good team", regardless of the truth of the statement. Circle the wagons Charlie! Tell everyone you'll right the ship one way or another, don't tell them you're completely at a loss for answers. He's pretty much begging to be put out of his misery.

Can we all collectively agree to quietly ignore Kyle Kendrick's quality starts and loudly blast his bad starts?

Kyle Kendrick, for me, is near the bottom of a very long list of problems for this team. He's pitched as well as you can expect from a 6th/spot starter. Last night's game was a hiccup in an otherwise pretty good season, if you ask me.

Finally...

How does Charlie Manuel still have a job? How is it possible? What has to be done to get rid of one of the worst managers in baseball?

If I was a member of this Phils squad, I would be tuning Charlie out too. He basically rips the team on a daily basis to the media. I wouldn't want to hear my manager constantly telling everyone that "we can't do anything right" or "we're just not a very good team", regardless of the truth of the statement. Circle the wagons Charlie! Tell everyone you'll right the ship one way or another, don't tell them you're completely at a loss for answers. He's pretty much begging to be put out of his misery.

Posted by: Chris in VT

What do you want him to say? He's tried playing nice with these guys. Enough cuddling. These are professional ballplayers. They can handle a little ribbing through the media. I think it speaks to the fact that Charlie probably has lost this team though. And for that he should be fired. He should want to be fired.

We should sign Zach Grienke & Shaun Marcum this winter to be our 4th & 5th starters!! That will solve all our problems.

The Phils are sellers come deadline time, right? I mean, they have to be. Right?

Posted by: R.Billingsly | Wednesday, June 13, 2012 at 09:17 AM

If they don't trade Victo at the deadline, RAJ is dead to me. DEAD.

I think if your 5th starter can keep his era under 4.8, you're doing pretty good. Kendrick was there before last night, and he'll probably get back there again by the end of the season.

I can't ever remember going from such unabashed love (how I felt during the regular season last year) to pure hate (how I feel now) for any Philadelphia team in my life.

Joe D - so you agree that Charlie's lost the team? Then what's the debate? I agreed that his negative statements to the media may be factually correct, but that locker room doesn't seem like a good one at the moment, and I fail to see how Charlie's helping. It's. It about "playing nice," it's about turning the season around. Charlie's already admitted he's got no idea what to do, so show him the door and move on.

I still love this team. And when they become sellers, I'll love them even more. For those local fans who go to many games during the year, think of how great it will be to get in and out of the parking lots, not have to deal with fairweather fans, college kids who are only there to get drunk, hipsters, Eagles fans disguised as Phillies fans and so on and so forth.

Now that they won a World Series in my lifetime, I don't care if they are horrendous for the next few years. Since CBP opened, I have longed for the days of the half-empty Vet. That's how I learned to love baseball and that's how I want my children to learn to love baseball.

Sell,Sell, you forget in order to sell you have to have a buyer.Jroll,Pence,Vic,RFD.etc. Line must be long trying to get to Rube.
Return for Cole isn't going to be enough to turn things around.Oh,forgot,Howard and Uts the saviors are waiting in the wings.
Anybody want to buy a bridge?

Joe D - so you agree that Charlie's lost the team? Then what's the debate? I agreed that his negative statements to the media may be factually correct, but that locker room doesn't seem like a good one at the moment, and I fail to see how Charlie's helping. It's. It about "playing nice," it's about turning the season around. Charlie's already admitted he's got no idea what to do, so show him the door and move on.

Posted by: Chris in VT

There is no debate. He has to go. He has made his share of mistakes but honestly who the hell can blame the man for being lost right now?

I feel the same way R. Billingsly. I dropped my partial ticket plan a few years ago because I simply couldn't stand the type of fans that were coming into the park. I loved going to games at the Vet and don't get me wrong I still love going to CBP today. I just feel like the baseball purist is few and far between at CBP right now. I wish losing didn't have to coincide with a better/more knowledgeable fan showing at the park but unfortunately those are the breaks.

I'll take d-bags at a packed park and a winning team that contends every year over a half filled stadium, even if every fan in the stadium is a cross between Jayson Stark and Bill James.

Winning is the primary goal of the team and of my fandom.

I know Fatalotti. I certainly don't want the mid 90s to return. Maybe this current swoon can just drive idiots far enough away that when the team is back to old form it will take them longer to come back.

Joe D: In '09, probably around mid-May or so, I recall getting to a game at 6:00 and couldn't find a spot in the parking lot. When I asked a guy to move his stuff out of one of the four spots he was taking up, he started screaming and cursing at me in front of my kids. At that moment, I got out of my car and said "I can't wait until they stink again and all these people stop coming."

And I still mean it to this day. Going to a Phillies game is one of the few things I really enjoy in life. In the past 4 years, it has become a burden. This season -- for the first time in my life -- I gave away tickets because I simply didn't want the hassle of going to the ballpark. It may be in small doses, and it doesn't matter to their bottom line, but they're driving away some actual baseball fans.

What is Charlie supposed to do. This is a $170m team with the backups' backups claiming 1/2 the lineup spots and a 6th starter toeing the rubber followed by some AAA bullpen fodder. Is Ryne Sandberg going to get more out of Fontenot, Wiggington, Savery & Qualls than Charlie has? How does a $170m team end up with a lineup with Wiggington, Martinez, Fontenot, Pierre, & a 75 year old Thome in it all at the same time?

Also, I quite fondly remember there being quite many a88holes at the park, even when the team was terrible.

I'll take d-bags at a packed park and a winning team that contends every year over a half filled stadium, even if every fan in the stadium is a cross between Jayson Stark and Bill James.

Winning is the primary goal of the team and of my fandom.

Posted by: Fatalotti | Wednesday, June 13, 2012 at 09:50 AM


It is pretty snobbish of the others who think phans are only those who understand the geek side of things. I go to the game to have fun, not to crunch numbers and calculate BAbip or have lively debates regarding the optimal construction of a lineup based on OPS. I go to drink beer and enjoy the summer. If that isn't "pure", I don't know what is. For the record, I will probably go more often once tickets become cheaper. Thus, there will be at least one "idiot" in the stands with all of the Bill James types.

Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing. But even when they suck, I still wanna have fun with my phils.

and then the $170m team ran out onto the mound this sequence of pitchers: Kendrick, Savery, Rosenberg, Diekman, Qualls.

Was Cholly dealt a horrible hand this season? Yes he was, no doubt about that.

But the guy is playing blackjack during a poker game.

Fatalotti: I would rather they win too. But, having young kids makes me appreciate the magic that is taking kids to a baseball game -- teaching them the game and watching them enjoy it. When my dad took me and my siblings, it was the greatest. I cherished those 40-50 games a year. I remember my dad enjoying it too. I never remembered who won, or who was even on the team, but I remember having a great time. My dad did too. I want my kids to experience it that way. Then, when they get older, they can have their day ruined by a Phillies loss just like their father.

I of course don't begrudge anyone from going to a game and enjoying themselves in their own way. That's their prerogative. It's just not my cup of tea and it annoys me to the point that it ruins my game-watching experience. It's my problem, not theirs.

Fat - There weren't many a-holes at the Vet? Que? Did you ever go even an Opening Day game during the late 80s/early 90s?

There was a lot more fighting and buffoorny that went on then because it was much cheaper to buy tickets to the 500-700 level and then try to sneak down to a lower level. Ushers basically gave up after the 4th-5th inning usually.

noname, I apologize if my comment came off as snobbish. There are undoubtedly some pretty big jerks at Phils game (and Eagles/Sixers/Flyers games), but I don't consider someone who doesn't have a "heightened" understanding of the game to be less of a fan. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with your definition of a fan. If you aren't enjoying the game, then the game has lost all of its value. I enjoy the debates and the numbers, but one doesn't have to enjoy such things to be a great fan. One just have to love watching their team, and hope for its best interests.

I was just countering RBill's point that it's better to have a losing team and a hardcore fans, rather than win and have "fair-weather" fans. I see nothing wrong with fans being fair-weather, to begin with, but also, the idea that only winning breeds jerks being at the park is probably mistaken.

MG:

Also, I quite fondly remember there being quite many a88holes at the park, even when the team was terrible.

Posted by: Fatalotti | Wednesday, June 13, 2012 at 09:59 AM

Also MG, I was born in the mid 80s, so I didn't really go to many games until the mid 90s (my family wasn't comprised of many baseball fans). Still, cheap tickets and cheap beer plus a lousy team is the perfect recipe to loud, boisterous, and disruptive fans, the likes of which you don't want to sit anywhere near.

I don't think you are alone in your sentiment R. Billinsly and that is a shame that you had to deal with the situation in the parking lot.

Also, I quite fondly remember there being quite many a88holes at the park, even when the team was terrible.

Very true, Fatalotti.

nonamephan: It's not about having only "knowledgeable" fans there. It's about enjoying your experience. I sit in front of three guys who know absolutely nothing about baseball -- but sure think they do. It's comical to listen to them, actually. But, they're really nice guys and are trying to learn the game. Nothing wrong with that at all. What ruins it for me are the people who are there to get drunk, not watch baseball, don't care about baseball and do it because it's the "cool thing to do".

Again, if that's how they want to spend their evening, that's fine. They have every right to do it. The point is that it ruins my game-watching experience. And if they stop coming because it's no longer cool, that's fine by me. Heck, I encourage it. But, it's my issue.

Well, we always said that if one of our 3 aces went down for considerable amount of time this team would be in big trouble.

Just sucks that Doc being injured has somehow made Lee and Hamels unable to hold a lead.

Obviously Blanton and Kendrick are far from world beaters, but even they are under performing by their own standards.

I dont recall the Vet being a very friendly place to view a game...though I did enjoy being able to get great seats pretty much whenever I wanted for peanuts.

The worst things to happen to Phillies baseball in my 29 years of existence are as follows and in no particular order:

- the passings of Whitey and Harry
- Andy Ashby
- Kevin Millwood
- T-Mac
- ill t-shirts
- the new phanatic dangle hat
- Terry Francona and all of those 90s teams
- Mark Leiter as a closer
- Gary Bennett...just because
- the influx of idiot fans coming to games just to be seen

And this is just scraping the surface. But I'll always love these teams deep down and you better believe I had last night's game on and was flipping out like it was game 7 of the World Series because I too am an idiot.

Fatalotti: I addressed your point I think in my last post (to nonamephan), but I don't want to be misunderstood.

I don't think it's "better to have a losing team and a hardcore fans, rather than win and have "fair-weather" fans." In fact, I never said such a thing. My personal preference is to have my kids learn baseball the way I did from my dad. There are annoyances at the games today that I didn't encounter as a kid because they only drew 12,000 a night.

I want them to win. I like when they win. But, if the silver lining to them losing is that I can have a more enjoyable game-watching experience with my family, then I'm ok with it.

Yo, new thread

Jim Salisbury ‏@JSalisburyCSN
Phils go from 2.5 out to 9.5 out in 10 games

Yep, impressively bad as GTown said.

I know the team will bounce back a bit and win some games, but this godawful nosedive can't help but make me wonder if there will ever be a night that they don't somehow find a way to lose.

At this point it's kind of a race to the trading deadline. Can the current crew find it within themselves to claw close enough to have a reasonable shot at a run for the playoffs when (if?) the reinforcements arrive?

Still looking for some regression to non-abysmal. I mean Cliff Lee has to start winning some games doesn't he? Cole's looked human in his last few games. Isn't he due to put together a 5-1 run? Joe Blanton and Kyle Kendrick ought to be able to put a quality start together that coincides with the team getting a few runs maybe half the time shouldn't they?

Tongue and cheek on the above paragraph, but two weeks ago I would have said about the effort to stay above water, "Probably so." Now gone to "Very doubtful."

Nice list Joe D. I really like this concept. Not because its negative, just because i find a lot of those items be really funny to remember. I'm in my 32nd year of existence, so I've got about the same perspective so I'd like to offer some additions to your list of the worst things to happen.

Jeff Jackson over Frank Thomas
Abreu, Rolen, Schilling trades
The first incarnation of T-Mac
Commercials played during Phillies games
Adam Eaton
Freddy Garcia trade
Idiots, specifically hipsters at the games
Jim Fregosi's handling of Phils bullpen in 93
Felske and Elia
Lance Parrish
Turk Wendell, Dennis Cook and Tim Worrell

I love how Eaton makes the list for practically having the same success that we defend in Kendrick.

Hunter Dense just misplayed another ball in right.

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