Game chat: Lee hoping to soothe afternoon angst

Call it another loss attributable to the bullpen (Antonio Bastardo). Or call it one of the most egregious tactical botch jobs in Charlie Manuel's Phillies' career (pinch hitting Jim Thome, who was a lock to be intentionally walked, pinch running Juan Pierre for Thome, representing an inconsequential run, then allowing Michael Martinez, of .366 career OPS as a right-handed hitter, to bat for himself with the game on the line and defensive alternatives available). Whatever the case (and why not question lifting Cole Hamels with a depleted, ineffective 'pen to begin with), the Phils need to put it behind them when they play the second of two at Citizens Bank Park. Lee, seeking his first win, matches up with a bullpen starter for Tampa. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[NEPP]

So...to get Youk all we would have had to give up is a sh!tty utility infielder and a terrible reliever.

And the BoSox would end up paying almost all his salary?

Yeah, tough to see us matching that price.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Hope the Rays 'bullpen' start doesn't go like the toronto game where the starter left early due to injury.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

"sh!tty utility infielder and a terrible reliever."

We've got plenty to spare.

[Phlipper]

It's interesting.

I've been reading for years at BLer how worthless Rollins is. In particular, at the beginning of this year, the BLer experts made it quite clear that Rollins' days of playing quality baseball are long behind him.

Now we know that his defense may not be quite at the very-top-or-the-league that it was earlier in his career, but obviously he is still one of the best fielding SS's in baseball.

And I looked at the box score for the end of the earlier game to see that Rollins' offensive stats this year are roughly equal to if not better than every single starter for the Rays except Keppinger.

Almost makes me think that many BLers have no idea what they're talking about.

[NEPP]

So Phlipper, no comment on Mini Mart or UC's moves?

You go on about Rollins instead?

What a joke.

[bay_area_phan]

Did anyone notice that the Rays' original starter for this game was supposed to be Alex Cobb, a RHP who has 6 days rest? Why the last-minute change? Could it be that Maddon chose a LHP in order to induce another Mini-Mart start?

[clout]

NEPP: You raise an interesting point. Given how cheap the price was, the only reason for Rube to pass on Youk would be if he's decided to be a seller, not a buyer.

[Phlipper]

Wow! I see the ChiSox got Youk - getting money and giving up nuttin.'

Opportunity missed.

[NEPP]

If that is what Rube & Co have decided...I cant really argue with them.

[Scotch Man]

So basically Mayberry and Kendrick would have gotten us Youk, easily.

[Frankie]

"And I looked at the box score for the end of the earlier game to see that Rollins' offensive stats this year are roughly equal to if not better than every single starter for the Rays except Keppinger."

Having superior offensive numbers to the Rays lineup is not saying a lot.

[bay_area_phan]

So, Cholly's explanation is that he didn't hit Pierre for Mini-Mart because Pierre is hitting .171 against RHP (in all of 35 ABs)? Yet he turns around and starts him against a LHP in this game.

[NEPP]

***So basically Mayberry and Kendrick would have gotten us Youk, easily. ***

That is way way more than the White Sox paid.

More like Mini Mart and Michael Schwimer.

[Scotch Man]

That's depressing. I wasn't exactly among those screaming that we needed Youkilis but now that I see he was practically free, I'm a bit stunned.

[Bert Wedemeyer]

Mayberry is a late 20s minor leaguer/part-timer. Vic is on the block. Pence is too costly. Be prepared for a new OF in '13, starring St. Utley in left...only if RAJ is gone.

[RAJ]

Boston approached me about a Youk for Mini Mart trade but Mini Mart's an untouchable.

[bay_area_phan]

Has anyone noticed that Polanco has been absolutely pitiful since he missed those games with wrist issues?

[Bake McBride was Here]

"Boston approached me about a Youk for Mini Mart trade but Mini Mart's an untouchable."

In that the ball never touches his bat.

[NEPP]

Rube was willing to give up Mini Mart in that trade but he also wanted Bucholtz back.

[NEPP]

No Tilt...

[The Hook]

Anyone know how pitful polly has been for last 6 weeks. Youk that trade was horsecrap. We could have given up MM and a bucket of balls. Damn that sucks

[bfpsu]

I wonder if Cliff and Shane will go at it again in the dugout?

[Bake McBride was Here]

Lee: "First win? I don't need no stinking wins!"

[Chris "Wheels" Wheeler]

"Oh, boy!"

[HammRadio]

Thanks for showing up today Lee.

[TK]

Cliff Lee....bad signing.

[bay_area_phan]

Cliff Lee is probably my favorite Phillie. But I am really sick of this sh*t.

[NEPP]

Lee saw that Mini Mart was starting so he figured no matter how badly he does, he'll never lose his starting job.

[NEPP]

After tonight, we'll likely be 34-40.

Think its time to start selling off pieces.

[Iceman]

Lee's recent failures are getting tiresome. No reason to get pushed around by this lineup.

[Five-4-One]

This is just plain disgraceful.

[HammRadio]

Good thing Charlie didn't use savery earlier...

[bullit]

keppinger would look good at 3rd in red. how old is he?

[NEPP]

30 pitches for 3 outs so far.

[Iceman]

BAP has also claimed Rollins is his favorite Phillie, and judging by how he rips him on a daily basis, we can expect daily tirades on Lee for the rest of the season.

[NEPP]

Kepp is 32.

[wes covington's ghost]

Forget it. Too young.

[Let's go eat]

4 for 42 brooks Conrad -- he drove in 2 runs

Suk ola

[Five-4-One]

Lee looks totally lost. Nothing like our 25M pitcher battling an American League relief pitcher.

[Bake McBride was Here]

When all else fails, talk about how good Philly cheese steaks are.

[bullit]

thanks NEPP. too old, i guess.

[TK]

anyone wanna defend that Cliff Lee signing two years later?

[bay_area_phan]

Iceman: It's funny that you should take me to task for criticizing a player I like, while also regularly taking G-Town Dave to task for NOT criticizing a player he likes. Perhaps you can advise us on what exactly we're allowed to say which would meet with your approval.

[Chris "Wheels" Wheeler]

Hey, Amoroso sends me 2 dozen rolls a week if I mention how good their bread is a few times a season. Truthfully, the rolls suck. Liscio's is much better.

[MG]

BAP - Polanco hasn't hit a lick since he missed nearly a week with his wrist injury:

.152/.222/.212 (.434 OPS) in 33 ABs in 9 G

Dreaded 'small sample' size but he is back to dink and dunking it and making his share of weak outs again.

[RAJ]

I only watch the Phillies at this point for the Mini Mart AB's.

[bay_area_phan]

On the bright side: at least we don't have to worry about Cliff Lee or the bullpen blowing a lead.

[MG]

Prefer Liscio's myself but Amoroso isn't bad ether. Just move out to SF with all of the hard water & every damn restaurant gives you sourdough.

Sourdough is a nice 'change of pace' bread but sucks as a staple.

[NEPP]

Amoroso rolls are fantastic.

Sourdough is not bread and people should be shot for suggesting it is.

[can_of_corn]

Well here comes our guy now.

[can_of_corn]

And there he goes.

[MG]

Lee always has been kind of a streaky starter. Past month or so (since May 20th), more often than not he has struggled with his fastball command and hasn't been able to to paint outside corner consistently over 6-7 IP.

His curve also seems to come & go too without the classic 12-6 action. Curious to see the numbers on his fastball/curve since May 20th.

[Will Schweitzerr]

I defend Latino players who may lie about their age because I had a Latino lover who lied about his age, was older than 16, and he broke my heart. Broke my heart!

[TK]

LOL wait a minute Martinez is starting again????

[NEPP]

Good eye, Mini Mart.

[NEPP]

.388 OPS now.

[Davey Johnson]

Maddon went to Weird Wuss College.

[Bake McBride was Here]

Nothing beats Atlantic-City style rolls, though.

[Chris "Wheels" Wheeler]

"Mini-Mart just a little chilly."

[MG]

Figure the offense will have to put at least 3-4 runs on the board tonight against a bevy of relief pitchers.

[Bill]

Starting Mini Mart both games of a doubleheader is a fire-able offense. There is no justification for starting him, I don't care that a lefty is starting.

[Fire McCarthy & Wheeler]

Does Mini Mart have pictures of RAJ or Cholly or something? How is this guy in the majors? Did they confuse him with Rogers Hornsby or something? I honestly don't understand how this guy is in the league. I'd rather have Iron Orr in there.

[bay_area_phan]

Schneider's splits against LHP over the last 3 years: .078/.161/.078.

Mini-Mart's splits against LHP for his career: .171/.181/.186.

I challenge anyone to find a single starting lineup in the history of baseball which fielded 2 worse hitters among the starting 8.

[GBrettFan]

I just got back from walking the dog. WTH happened?

[Chris in VT]

Trade Lee, re-sign Hamels, and let's get to re-tooling. If we couldn't match the pitiful White Sox offer for Youk then it's time to start selling.

[Bake McBride was Here]

Wonder if Victorino was thinking, "I ought to drop this."

Anyway, Lee looks to be settling in, maybe. What are the chances the offense can overcome this monumental 3-run deficit now?

[Fire McCarthy & Wheeler]

Growing up, Steve Jeltz was always the poster boy for horrendous Phillies players and a brutal era of Phillies baseball. I think Mini Mart is actually much worse than Jeltz; he's 70 points below the Mendoza line!

[NEPP]

Mini Mart is a career .185 hitter.

That places him 3rd worst in the Majors for 2B with at least 250 PA since 1950.

[Iceman]

BAP- never took you to task on Lee. Just pointing out what to expect based on your years of ripping Rollins. You can obviously rip whoever you'd like.

[Bake McBride was Here]

Maybe all the Phils need to get things really going is a Disco Demolition Night.

[NEPP]

Jeltz is Ernie Banks compared to Mini Mart.

[NEPP]

BTW, that was 3rd worst out of 552 guys that qualified.

[MG]

Nice AB JRoll.

[Fire McCarthy & Wheeler]

Exactly; or Honus Wagner.

[Iceman]

Of all the aspects of the team I have confidence in, I actually have the most in the offense right now. Doesn't really say much, but I can definitely see them cobbling together 4 runs, so it's not over in that sense.

Do I have the slightest bit of confidence that Lee and whatever combo of AAA relievers we roll out will hold the Rays to 3 runs? No.

[MG]

Curious to run the numbers but it seems like Lee's troubles the past 5-6 weeks come all at once where he gives up a big inning with a few runs which is most of the damage.

[MG]

Pretty sad they didn't get at least 1 or 2 vs. Ramos. He had nothing from the get go and struggled to get into the 3rd.

[Iceman]

Bill Baer from Crashburn is having a twitter meltdown right now RTing every person on Twitter that is ripping Lee. He also said that Lee has been Cy Young caliber this season.

Anyone really believe that?

[TK]

LOL they're gonna get no hit by the bullpen.

[NEPP]

If they do get no-hit by a bullpen it would be a solid excuse to can Manuel tomorrow before the Pirates game.

[MG]

Iceman - No. That is people just looking at SIERA/xFIP and nothing more. Lacks much substance.

He has pitched pretty well overall though with a crummy lack of run support and some shoddy defense at inopportune times.

I wouldn't criticize Lee on how he has pitched this year overall. Just hasn't pitched quite as well the past month. That's all.

[Fire McCarthy & Wheeler]

I think it's absolutely fair to criticize Lee this season. For the amount of money he makes, he's supposed to be an ace. He shouldn't blow so many leads he's been given. Lack of run support isn't his fault, but he's had leads that he's blown. That's worthy of criticism for the caliber of pitcher that he should be and is being paid to be.

[Five-4-One]

I just dont understand how this mini-mart thing can possibly be happening. I think that from now on, the only questions cholly and roob get asked are why martinez is still on this roster.

[Chris in VT]

Lee has been nowhere near as bad a his record, but he has definitely NOT been the "ace" the Phil's signed to the highest AAV pitcher contract in baseball history.

[Bert Wedemeyer]

Will Utley start in LF? Might as well...

[bay_area_phan]

"Bill Baer from Crashburn . . . said that Lee has been Cy Young caliber this season."

Baer is the sabermetric equivalent of Phlipper. Once he takes a position on something, he'll dig in his heels & defend that position into eternity, no matter how idiotic he might make himself look.

[Bert Wedemeyer]

... or RF, CF, 2B. They all blow.

[The hook]

Yeah time to sell. Chase isn't going to bring a lot to the table and same for Howard. Pirates prob gonna sweep em. Hopefully that will get the wheels in motion to sell a few pcs and starting moving some of the minor pcs around. Promoting that is. Aumont has Been ok lately. Can't do no worse then some of the stiffs. Plus give a chance for friend to get promoted. And y not Tyler c.

[NEPP]

Just remember, Mini Mart wont be going anywhere...he's our backup SS.

And our starting 2B for some reason.

[NEPP]

I dont think Baer actually even watches the games. He just looks at the stats on Fangraphs.

[Iceman]

MG- I agree. He pitched into some really bad luck the first few months, along with being injured, and now he's in one of his prolonged slumps. I think people that say he has been a disaster this year are overreacting. He just hasn't had the type of impact on the team that he's supposed to have for a number of reasons, a lot of which are out of his control.

But he's had a string of starts now that have absolutely been in his control and he's failed in every game. It just proves yet again that he is a cut below a guy like Halladay, and probably not worth his contract. Oddly enough, I'm still glad he's on the team, and would support the signing again in a heartbeat.

[Let's go eat]

When they show the Phillies commercials, with the capttion -- "made of Steel" and show Harry Kalas , they changed the commercial with the next caption "made of stone" --to now show Charlie's head...

[Bake McBride was Here]

Maybe Polanco was reading BL in the dugout and getting steamed.

[Rauls grandpa]

They have to start MM because Charlie said he saw the Superman Show in Cuba with Johnny Ola. He is in Hyman Roth's pocket.

[Fire McCarthy & Wheeler]

I still can't belive Cholly let Mini Mart hit in the first game. .140 hitter at that point (and going down). I'd rather have used Lee in that spot. Seriously.

[Let's go eat]

Sorry NEPP-- we got a hit , run and UC

[Fire McCarthy & Wheeler]

Man at second, no one out: what are the odds they get him home??

[MG]

Lee's stats among qualified starters (let's even leave out W/L) in NL:

K/9: 8.92 (15th)
BB/9: 1.69 (6th)
K/BB: 5.50 (2nd)
xFIP: 2.88 (4th)
SIERA: 2.75 (4th)

BAA: .253 (39th)
% LD: 17.2% (6th)
GB/FB: 1.47 (25th)
HR/FB: 13.2% (48th)

I understand a bit more where Baer is coming from. Lee's had a bit of bad luck on balls that are hit especially fly balls that leave the park.

If you want to argue Cy Young, it is Dickey or Strasburg and nobody else though at this point.

[Fire McCarthy & Wheeler]

Wow, I stand corrected on that one, nice hit by Mayberry.

[Bake McBride was Here]

Mayberry: beating the odds.