Game chat: Focus split between Philly, Lehigh Valley

Second baseman Chase Utley takes the field for what may be his final day of, essentially, four months of spring training when the IronPigs get underway at sold out Coca-Cola park beginning at 7:05. Utley will reportedly bat third in Ryne Sandburg's lineup. Meanwhile on the big stage, Vance Worley (3-4, 2.78) and the Phillies look to take the second of four against left-hander Erik Bedard (4-7, 4.17) and the Pirates. First pitch is 7:05 from Citizens Bank Park. Charlie Manuel leads off with the red-hot Jimmy Rollins, who has been en fuego post-fatherhood. Then it's Polanco, Pence, Ruiz, Victorino, Wigginton, Mayberry, Fontenot, who starts for the second-straight game. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[GBrettFan]

It sounds like Howard is anxious to return but Manuel wants to be cautious, if I'm reading Charlie's words right. I agree, it doesn't sound exactly encouraging that Howard's still got a limp & while eager to play, unsure he's ready.

Cyclic: Laynce Nix had a setback last week, it was reported. Great, huh?

GTown, always making me laugh.

[HammRadio]

From last thread:

i like that Dubee used the term "comfortable"... Nothing they've done with the bullpen makes you think they are "comfortable" with what they have there on a day to day basis. In what possible way are they "comfortable" with this extreme scenario? The fact that the Phillies got beat handily when Toronto used their "bullpen" strategy??? Larussa told them it would out fine???

Maybe they think Savery or Schwimm in the first inning is less pressure and they won't fold under the pressure of the late innings...

There's a reason why the Phillies stock pile veteran filler guys in AAA...

Would this have happened if Wilson Valdez were still around???

Is this all Dave Bush's fault for going to Korea???

Did Amaro beat Moyer the other day in Ping Pong and refused to sign him for a one and done???

[GBrettFan]

I was going to make some smartass remark to the choice of the word "comfortable" too, Hamm, like comfortable as sitting on a cactus, but then I began to wonder: Do they dislike their AAA starters more than their relievers? I can't speak to this topic with any knowledge.

[Cyclic]

GBrett-- Yeah I remember the setback. Nothing reported since I guess though.

RIP Laynce Nix

[GBrettFan]

Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki
Howard will return to Philly tomorrow for testing on Achilles. If he passes he will begin rehab assignment Thursday with Class A Lakewood.

Good news, right? Even after the ambivalent quotes earlier?

[GBrettFan]

Guess Kratz will be sticking around awhile.

Mandy Housenick ‏@inthephilshouse
Schneider had an MRI today that revealed a high ankle sprain. His expected recovery time is three to five weeks.

[Iceman]

I really wish they would shut Howard down for the year.

I understand that would be seen as conceding on the season, but it's the end of June and the guy is running with a freaking limp. Let him heal and be ready to go for 2013. Pushing him this year to try to get two good months out of him seems increasingly like a waste, especially when you consider that it is a longshot that you'll be getting him anywhere near 100%.

[DH Phils]

It feels like an absolute certainty that every reliever is used tomorrow and the Phillies have to ask Kendrick to suck up a whole bunch of innings no matter how he is pitching. Given that he is typically quite efficient with his pitch counts, I fully expect something like 8 IP, 7 ER.

[clout]

BAP's logic on Lidge seemed to be that he pitched to a 1.40 ERA last year. And that the Triple A Trio has been crap this season.

Both arguments are worthless. Lidge's stellar ERA was in 19 IP, and accompanied by a 1.50 WHIP. The guy was injured most of the year. His stats are meaningless.

The Trip A Trio's stats are also worthless because they're based on even fewer IP than Lidge's 19.

That does NOT, however, mean that BAP's view that Lidge should be given a try at Triple A is wrong. It may be a good idea. It's just that BAP's arguments in support of that idea are worthless.

[DH Phils]

Isn't it weird that Utley has been batting 3rd in his rehab assignments? Wouldn't they want him batting 1st to maximize his ABs?

Do they want him to get more comfortable in the 3-hole, as if his approach will be screwed up if he bats leadoff?

[GBrettFan]

I thought the best argument for giving Lidge a look was the fact that our BP stinks. Not sure Lidge would be an improvement, which would be the reason for a minor-league contract only.

[DH Phils]

Also, for what it's worth (nothing, since it'll never happen), I think Utley would be a great leadoff hitter.

[bay_area_phan]

clout: So, it's ok for Phlipper to cite this year's stats, based on 9 IP, but it's not ok for me to cite last year's, based on 19? How about the year before, when he "put up strong numbers across the board" (I'm quoting from my own 4:17 post to counter your false contention that I'm relying solely on last year's stats).

Let's cut to the chase: we're tied in the 8th inning in tonight's game. Who would you rather have in the game: Brad Lidge, with his 9-ish ERA and 11 walks in 9 innings, or any among the trio of Diekman, Schwimer, or Savery? I'd take my chances with Lidge.

[GTown_Dave]

I'd honestly take Diekman. He might disappoint me, but he hasn't disappointed me as many times as Lidge.

[clout]

From philly.com. No target date on Dom return.

ALLENTOWN — IronPigs manager Ryne Sandberg indicated that injured Triple A outfielder Domonic Brown will be sidelined longer than the organization hoped.

Brown, once the Phillies' top prospect, left a game June 14 when he strained his right knee. He has been totally shut down for the last 12 games.

"It's going a little bit slower than we thought it would initially take," Sandberg said.

[Chris in VT]

Bap - then you obviously haven't watched Lidge pitch this year.

[bay_area_phan]

Let me retract the 2nd paragraph of that last post. I wrote it hurriedly, because I had to leave & take my son somewhere.

For tonight's game, I would rather have Schwimer, Diekman or even Savery than Lidge. However, if Lidge could put together a string of decent performances (i.e., throw strikes) in the minors, then I would rather have Lidge. Hence, I see no harm in signing him to a minor league deal & seeing if he could put together that string of decent performances.

[clout]

BAP: I have no clue what phlipper cited. Didn't read his post. Was simply responding to your lack of an intelligent argument. Noting Lidge's stats from 2 years ago, before he was hurt, is certainly a stronger argument than his 19 IP last year, but it was pre-injury and it was 2 years ago so it's pretty weak soup too.

[GTown_Dave]

Brown, once the Phillies' top prospect ...

Considering the state of the Phillies' farm system I think that says it all.

[clout]

BAP: "I see no harm in signing him to a minor league deal & seeing if he could put together that string of decent performances."

I agree with this.

[Phlipper]

"Who would you rather have in the game: Brad Lidge, with his 9-ish ERA and 11 walks in 9 innings, or any among the trio of Diekman, Schwimer, or Savery? "

So now, apparently, BAP has changed his argument.

He no longer thinks that Lidge should be brought in to pitch in the minors and see how it goes. He thinks that Lidge should be brought in to replace one of the relievers currently in the bullpen.

Well, at least until his next post, when he'll probably find yet another way to frame it.

Yes, the sample sizes are small either way, but yup, call me CRAZY, but I would rather see relievers that have ERAs 1/2 - 1/5 that of Lidge come into the game than Lidge. And I gotta go with Rosenberg 'cause he's a member of the tribe.

[bay_area_phan]

clout: I'm talking about what YOU cited. You said my whole argument came down to 19 IP from last year, which it didn't.

The whole argument, from both sides, is weak soup. It's weak soup to say that Schwimer, Rosenberg, Savery & Diekman are more likely to improve than Lidge. It's weak soup to say Lidge is going to turn it around because he used to be good, before all his injuries. However, in terms of sheer probabilities, I think it's fair to say that recently-injured reliever who was good just 2 years ago is more likely to turn things around than a bunch of guys who have absolutely no track record of major league success.

In any event, all I'm advocating is that they give him a minor league deal & see how it goes. It's hard for me to see any cogent argument against that.

[Cyclic]

Team Lidge

[James]

2012 Philadelphia Eagles Season Tickets - No Waiting List + Phillies Tickets ---> http://tiny.cc/2k8igw

[Phlipper]

Well - apologies, BAP. You noticed the inconsistency in your argument and covered your tracks before I could post on it.

Once again. If Lidge pitched well in the minors, I would have zero confidence that was more useful than how he's done so far this year in the majors. All the relievers currently in the bullpen have pitched well in the minors this year, and all save my tribe member have outperformed him in limited sample size.

Is there a very remote chance that Lidge might not be shot? Sure. There is a very remote chance. If professional talent evaluators work Lidge out and feel it is worth giving him a shot, I'd go with their opinion over certainly mine, and yours also, BAP. We'll see what happens.

[bay_area_phan]

Phlipper: Did you not see my 6:43 post in which I expressly and unambiguously retracted that particular statement? Or did you just purposely disregard the retraction, in order to have a gotcha moment? Pr*ck.

[GTown_Dave]

James: Were you aware that noted artist LeRoy Neiman died recently?

[Rosenberg]

Sol. I said Sol Rosenberg.

[Phlipper]

"Phlipper: Did you not see my 6:43 post in which I expressly and unambiguously retracted that particular statement? "

Time lag, BAP. I later acknowledged that you covered your tracks after changing your argument. Oh, wait, sorry, it wasn't that you changed your argument, it was that you had to go somewhere and wrote something "hurredly" (even though you're still around 13 minutes later to call me a pr*ck).

[bay_area_phan]

Phlipper: Not that retracting a statement requires an explanation, or that anyone cares about the explanation, but here goes:

I wrote the first post at 6:28 (3:28 for me), then immediately left. My son had to be at a class, 5 minutes away, at 3:30, and had been pestering me to go. On the way home from his class, I got to thinking about what I'd written & realized it was hyperbole & did not exactly reflect my actual views. So, 15 minutes after the first post, when I was BACK from my trip, I wrote the retraction.

If you want to have a "gotcha" moment because, in your view, that constitutes an inconsistency or "change of argument," then have at it. I don't really care.

[GTown_Dave]

Well crap. The Phillies can't afford to lose Tabata. He's invaluable in the field.

[Ghost of LeRoy Neiman]

Yes, I died recently.

[GTown_Dave]

So I'm not getting a CGSO vibe from Worley thus far ...

[Ghost of Thomas Kinkade]

Knock it off LeRoy!

[wes covington's ghost]

I'm getting a Steve Blass vibe.

[GTown_Dave]

Worley learned that by watching Chase Utley.

[Paul]

Way to battle.

[bay_area_phan]

That was an escape worthy of JC Romero

[Marc Chagall]

Still dead here.
By the way, the tribe has voted and we are kicking Phlipper off. You are more embarrassing to us than Pauly Shore.

[Paul]

Did you see Chooch trails in All-Star voting by almost a million votes still?

[lolwut]

yeah chooch is definitely deserving of his current all-star positioning.

[MG]

Nice job Chooch to pick up that 2-out RBI.

[Ghosts of Famous Artists]

We kind of like Phlipper.

[MG]

Chooch trails Posey and Molina by a ton. Understand Molina but Posey isn't having the season either one of those are having and isn't the same caliber defender either.

Hopefully he gets an at-large selection.

[GTown_Dave]

Wigginton. Rally killer.

[The Truth Injection]

I like that BAP's kid is pestering him to go to a class but BAP just has to finish typing a post to phlipper on Beerleaguer.

"Hold on son. I gotta finish offering my opinion on Brad Lidge to some guy who I always argue with on this website. THEN you may go to your class."

[Paul]

Carlos simply has to be on the All-Star team. I don't see how he can be left off the team.

[MG]

Pretty much. Hitting a lusty .213 since May 1st now.

[Cyclic]

Worley not looking so hot.

[Paul]

Did you see the D-Backs mysterious[y removed their play by play announcer from doing games? No reason given.

[GTown_Dave]

Worley looks very uncomfortable tonight. Unusually so.

[wes covington's ghost]

I think he had some issues at his last job with I think, the Brewers.Don Sutton's son Darren.

[Cyclic]

Should have pitched around him and hoped for a DP from the pitcher.

[awh]

@ game. Vanimal lacks command so far.

[Phlipper]

I like the fact that BAP doesn't just tell his kid to walk or ride his bike to a class that only takes 5 minutes to drive to.

[NEPP]

Fontenot sucks.

[MG]

Fontenot with another hit. Funny how Mini Mart has ridden the pine since Sat. afternoon with Cholly's nonsense on Sunday.

Decent bunt by Worley. Something he still isn't that great at though.

[Paul]

If Fontenot keeps getting hits he's going to find himself back on the bench or worse.

[Beerleaguer]

We like how Phlipper is an annoying fucking dick and contributes nothing to this site but trolling other posters. Wait, no. We don't like that at all.

[MG]

Nice AB JRoll. Just isn't chasing the stuff down and away like he was a lot more earlier this year.

[DH Phils]

I hate the phrase "unintentional intentional walk". Shouldn't it be "intentional unintentional walk"?

[Cyclic]

Utley 1-2 with a single. Don't think he's done anything in the field yet.

[lolwut]

and polly comes through again.

[GTown_Dave]

Fontenot has 3 hits in his last 4 AB. Martinez had 2 hits in his last 12 games.

[MG]

Way to run the team out of an inning JRoll with a struggling Bedard. Unnecessary gamble.

[DH Phils]

I don't mind the baserunning there. I didn't see a replay but I thought they might have had a play on Fontenot at the plate.

[gobaystars!]

We don't need no Utley!

[MG]

Nice play Fontenot.

[The Truth Injection]

Philliper: Maybe he lives in a neighborhood where it isn't really safe to ride bike to the place. I get that.

[Mini-Mart]

I could've done that even better.

[Cyclic]

Fontenot having a "don't send me down" game.

[GTown_Dave]

I don't miss Martinez.

[can_of_corn]

Okay Mini Mart, Fontenot raises you one great defensive play.

[The Truth Injection]

Not a bad play by Jimmy really. I think he thought the throw was going to go through to home and he thought Barmes and Alvarez were far enough away from third to not make the play on him. Gamble that just didn't pay off.

[DH Phils]

I wonder if that play gives Manuel a sinking feeling that Fontenot is actually better in the field than Martinez. And he has a hit off a lefty. Oops.

[MG]

Worley is struggling to locate his fastball tonight so far. Falling behind almost every hitter as a result.

[MG]

Mini Mart is a better fielder than Fontenot at 2B. He's just horrendous offensively and the defensive upgrade doesn't offset it.

Worley made his best pitch of the night there to freeze McCutchen 3-2 with a 2-seamer on the corner.

[gobaystars!]

Not a gamble at all. It was a deliberate move to have the throw cut off so Fontenot can score on a shallow hit fielded in good throwing position by a guy with, despite what we have seen this series, a strong arm. It's a pretty common move.

[Cyclic]

Love the way Worley comes off the mound when he knows he has a strikeout looking.

Swagger.

[MG]

Bedard hasn't been nearly as sharp either as he was on Opening Day. His curveball was really good that day.

[gobaystars!]

BOOM!

[Raul's grandpa]

Maybe they can shift these two assclowns to a back desk at accuweather.

[Cyclic]

I still don't like Wigginton.

However, I do like 2 out runs.

[GTown_Dave]

Clearly feeling shame for his failure in the 1st inning.

[MG]

Hung a changeup over the plate and Wigginton tagged it.

Mistake call. Should have pounded him on the inside corner with a fastball there. Walk him, no big deal.

[NEPP]

***Maybe it would be smarter to start Utley at 1B and keep Fontenot at 2B when he returns as Wiggy sucks lately***

I was just about to hit send on the above comment....too awesome Wiggy!

[BobbyD]

The offense has been fairly good for weeks now, the man on 3rd problem not withstanding. Putting Utley in the 3 hole immediately is a really bad idea.

[NEPP]

If we had our 2008 bullpen, we'd be 5-6 games above .500 instead of 5 under.

[wes covington's ghost]

Sarge and tmac are stone cold idiots..

[NEPP]

Worley is far far better than anyone could have predicted or hoped.

[DH Phils]

It's nice to see Worley settling in. Hopefully they can squeeze 7 IP+ out of him tonight.

[Raul's grandpa]

My broadcast audio is causing my gall bladder to throb with pain. I think the Phillies are working on some dirty black bag psy-ops thing with Tmac and Sarge. I knew that MK Ultra stuff was run out of San Fran, perhaps Sarge was enlisted back then.

[Phlipper]

"BAP - Polanco hasn't hit a lick since he missed nearly a week with his wrist injury:

.152/.222/.212 (.434 OPS) in 33 ABs in 9 G

Dreaded 'small sample' size but he is back to dink and dunking it and making his share of weak outs again.

Posted by: MG | Sunday, June 24, 2012 at 07:11 PM"

------

Since coming back from injury, Polly has increased his OBP, SLG, and OPS, while his AVG has dropped by .002 points.

[Conway Twitty]

It's cool tonite. Worley is good for about 173 pitches.

[Bake McBride was Here]

Utley HR in LV. Got silent treatment in dugout.

[NEPP]

Theyre going to demote Mini Mart tomorrow, right?

[MG]

Phlipper - This was his slash went he went out on June 5.

.289/.318/.374

Slash currently:

.280/.321/.366

His line since he was been back is .220/.322/.321

So yeah even with his last two games where he had 2 multi=hit games he has scuffled a bit.

[bullit]

saintly goes yard @lv.

[bay_area_phan]

Last post on this silly, day-long discussion, and I'll begin it with apologies to the peanut gallery for unleashing an obscenity. I usually try very hard not to make these arguments personal.

But, yeah, I find it a little vexing that I write a post suggesting that maybe the Phillies should take a shot at Brad Lidge and I then have to spend the entire day responding to a poster who: (1) misrepresents what I said (See Phlipper's 2:39 p.m. post); (2) gratuitously mocks something I said a week ago ago which has nothing to do with the topic at hand (See Phlipper's 3:19 p.m. post); (3) accuses me of having dishonorable motives for my Lidge suggestion (See Phlipper's 3:22, 4:32, and 4:55 p.m. posts); (4) gratuitously searches through the archives to find posts which supposedly prove that I'm a hypocrite (See Phlipper's 4:41 and 4:48 p.m. posts); (5) attacks me as a hypocrite for failing to delineate the particulars of my argument with sufficient clarity (See Phlipper's 6:48 and 7:01 p.m. posts); (6) calls me an outright liar (See Phlipper's 7:01 p.m. posts); and (7) last, but not least, questions my parenting skills (See Phlipper's 7:41 p.m. post).

And all this because I suggested that, if he can straighten out his control problems, Brad Lidge would be a better reliever than Michael Schwimer and Joe Savery. Sheesh. There were other posters who disagreed with me just as vehemently as Phlipper did. And somehow they managed to express that disagreement without a non-stop stream of personal attacks.

[Paul]

I think Mini-Mart gets demoted tomorrow.