Sunday chat: Lee prepared to deal in series settler

Cliff Lee (0-1, 1.95 ERA) seeks his first win of the season as the Phillies play the third and final game against the Red Sox. First pitch is 1:35 p.m. Josh Beckett (3-4, 4.97 ERA) tries to build on a solid start in his previous outing.

Beerleaguer: In regards to Saturday night's 7-5 defeat, as one reader put it, it was "easily the best loss of the year." Joe Blanton was smoked early and often so the Phils spent the rest of the game playing catch-up. They would have completed the job with some better luck with runners in scoring position. The Phils stranded 11 runners and were two for 12 with runners in scoring position. Afterward, questions swirled around Shane Victorino's first-pitch pop-up with the bases loaded and two outs in the eighth, after Alfredo Aceves had just walked them loaded. “I went up there looking for a cutter, to be honest with you,” Vic told CSNPhilly.com. “I faced him in spring training, had many at-bats against him, and I went up there looking for a first-pitch cutter. I got the pitch I wanted. I’ll swing at that every single time."

Readers disagreed. "Victorino needs to understand the situation there," wrote Beerleaguer commentor Fatalotti. "Aceves is a walk machine this year, and as much as Vic might like to hit a double there, even taking a walk drives in one run and makes it a one run game. You have to be more selective there and force the pitcher to throw a strike."

The good news: The entire National League East also lost.

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Comments

[bsg]

not sure it helped that joe threw 106 pitches his last outing....

[RK]

Just wondering if we are still concerned about Galvis hitting.
Although I am willing to bet that if and when Utley comes back Galvis is going down since CM will not replace JRoll no matter what. It would simply make RAJ look awful to have aa rookie show up the foolishness of the JRoll contract.

[Phlipper]

"You have to be more selective there and force the pitcher to throw a strike.""

Did Vic swing at a ball there?

[Phlipper]

Ugh. Depressing article at Philly.com.

"Larkin, who will be inducted into the Hall of Fame this summer, played another seven years after his Achilles tear - one that was far less severe than Howard's. His assessment of his performance in that span should be sobering for Phillies fans.

After being named the NL's MVP in 1995 and a 33-homer, 36-stolen-base performance in '96, Larkin's production dropped off dramatically.

"I was never able to hit the ball with such authority again," he said. "I felt like my power was gone. Defensively, I felt I had to cheat because I could no longer go to my right the way I had."

[MG]

Philipper - Kind of wrote Howard off this year returning and having his usual offense.

Sad feeling the fans get on him as he has a year where he is a below .800 OPS without his trademark HRs.

Probably won't have a good idea of what post-Achilles tear Howard will really start to look like until this time next year.

[The Truth Injection]

Philliper: No he didn't. In theory of baseball- Fata is right though. Of course, as he often does, he goes way off the rails in trying to present his case.

When Aceves walks the bases loaded you have to go up there taking a strike. Victorino may have had good scouting and may have had some idea of what was coming but you still need to make him throw you a strike and prove he has control. It happens that Vic swung at a strike. The outcome was obviously bad.

[Phlipper]

TTI -

He knew the pitcher and was looking for a specific pitch and got it. If it was a strike, I'm not going to knock him for swinging. If you expect professional baseball players to not swing at strikes that they were looking for, you're crazy. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. That's baseball.

If he goes after a pitch out of the strike zone, then he deserves to be criticized.

[Fatalotti]

Phlipper, I watched the AB a few more times, and it actually was a pretty good pitch to hit. Or at least it seems to me. The whole situation doesn't bug me that much. I would have liked him to take some pitches, and let Aceves get himself in trouble (because I don't think he was throwing well at all last night), but if he felt he had a pitch to drive (which he did), then so be it.

TTI, not sure how I "went off the rails" in this instance, as I said one thing about it (and a thing with which you personally agree), but whatever.

[Dickie Thong]

Gaby Sanchez optioned to AAA.

[Phlipper]

Yeah - it is infuriating, Fata, especially since Vic has come up small so much so far this year.

As you say - as a professional baseball player, it's his belief that he can hit pitches that he's looking for, and he's certainly right in the sense that he can do that better than all but a few hundred people on the face of the planet.

Of course, he's going to be wrong often, probably more often than not - but if he didn't believe that he could handle that pitch he wouldn't be where he is.

[Bob]

Fun series so far, with some good pitching defense, and hitting, and watching on TV, it seemed alike a festive, almost playoff like atmosphere.

Today should be an incredible day at CBP park between the weather, the pitching matchups, and both teams probably looking to make a bit of a statement.

Also, late comment, but liked J's phrasing about Friday night being the first time we've really felt Papelbon's pulse as a closer. The guy certainly seems eccentric (what closer, other than Mo, isn't?) but not sure what more he could be doing on the field other than what he has.

[aksmith]

As Galvis is looking just a touch more comfortable at the plate, it's becoming more and more painful to watch Formerly Young James scuffle.

He isn't necessarily through. But his is certainly swinging around the ball rather than through the ball. When Jimmy is going well, he has a nice, short, direct swing to the ball. He is not anywhere close to that now. The good news is that he's done this for long streaks before then broken out of it. So, here's hoping. But in the worst case, Galvis is not nearly as clueless or powerless as we were led to believe.

[Raul's grandpa]

I'll take Gaby off the bench. He could take Thome's retirement spot.

[Bubba]

Good to see No Longer Young James play some good defense ans hustle out an infield hit last night.
I kinda think he will get hot at the plate, sometime around when Chooch cools down.
It's a beautiful day for baseball.

[GBrettFan]

So, this is frustrating:

Tweet from @DavidHaleTNJ: Rollins & Victorino have come to bat w/207 runners on this year & scored just 18 of them (8.7%). Lg avg is 14%.

(On the positive side, he continues: Chooch has plated 23%.)

[GTown_Dave]

I'm not feelin' good about this game. It feels kinda loss-ish.

[GTown_Dave]

As I was saying ...

[AL]

Ugh

[bay_area_phan]

In the history of nauseating starts to baseball games, this one ranks pretty high.

[GTown_Dave]

Wigginton is another guy who's been steadily regressing as May proceeds.

[bay_area_phan]

Seems the rumors of the Phillies non-demise were a bit premature.

[Scotch Man]

Well this one's over

[JRide]

Padres, astros and cubs.

Cliff Lee is a terribly un-clutch pitcher.

[Phlipper]

Lee seems to be oddly inconsistent. Sometimes just unhittable, and sometimes entirely hittable. And it seems that when he's entirely bittable, it starts from the first pitch. This is why Halladay is a more valuable pitcher than Lee. Baseball is just a weird game.

I wonder where this Red Sox offense (or Texas' offense) would rank if they played in the National League.

Stream of posts about how "I told you that their streak was only against lousy teams" in 3...2...1.

[Phlipper]

"Cliff Lee is a terribly un-clutch pitcher."

A joke, right?

[Pete Alexander]

Un-clutch at best is ungainly. And for some reason I seem to remember Cliff Lee beating the Yankees a couple times during the World Series a few years back.

[Jo Jo Reyes]

Will there ever be talk of the Lee contract being just plain bad? Would the money been more effectively used to get a hitter? Lee choked big time in the NLDS last year and has been inconsistent (as stated on here), Hamels has to be watching and smiling inside considering the money thrown at Lee when he was a free agent - don't expect Hamels to give Philly a discount.

[JRide]

Beat your countdown Phlip.

You may joke about it, but that doesnt mean its not true.

And i totally agree with you about Lee. Im never comfortable about a Lee start like I am with Doc or Hamels.

[Ron Jones]

Rollins up with 2 RISP, firt pitch pop up?

[GTown_Dave]

Cliff Lee is a better hitter than Jimmy Rollins. Can he play SS?

[Jo Jo Reyes]

Ugh, Rollins is hard to watch at the plate.

[cut_fastball]

Pete -- that was 2 years ago. More recently, playoff-wise, how did things go against the bleepin' Cardinals?

Those 10 shutout innings with a loss to show for it seems to have stolen Cliff's mojo. Maybe we can flip Clifton at the deadline for a serviceable bat and some prospects.

[lorecore]

"Wigginton is another guy who's been steadily regressing as May proceeds."

The injury of Nix has really forced them to play Wigginton in more games than he should, i.e. vs RHP. Offense could really use Nix back, regardless of how high Pierre's AVG is.

[EastFallowfield]

Good teams' pitchers make sure the opponents line out with RISP, not like our bums.

[Mister Reality]

Blanton has similar performance last night and slammed, Lee does it and he is defended. Two wins in a world series 3 years ago (that they didn't win) has given him a cushion for some reason. Anybody remember Blanton getting a win in a world series they actually won? And he hit a HR. I'm just as uneasy about Lee's starts as I am Blanton's. Just tired of Lee getting a pass - he's clearly the 3rd starter on this team behind Halladay and Hamels. Did they pay too much for a 3rd starter?

[dlhunter]

Cliff Lee throws strikes. He leads baseball in strike percentage. This makes him a very good pitcher.

However, throwing strikes means throwing a baseball where it can, from time to time, be hit.

He's not unclutch, you blubbering fools, he's a occasionally unlucky -- like every pitcher.

[Ron Jones]

cut_fastball: Exactly! Lee's last two playoffs with the Phils and Rangers have been train wrecks.

[Buster]

How is it possible that Jimmy has six RBI? He was in the three hole for half of his at bats this year. And how is it that he isn't getting absolutely skewered by the media in Philly? It's getting ridiculous. Leaves two more on today. Its getting to be comical.

[GTown_Dave]

In his 2 starts following the 10 inning screwing Lee went 14 IP & surrendered all of 3 ER while striking out 16 batters. I wish Halladay had that kind of mojo this season.

And speaking of screwings, Jerry Meals. Not to mention the fact the Phillies couldn't manage to score a single f*cking run after the 2nd inning of Game 2, or at all in support of Doc's excellent Game 5 effort. Placing the NLDS series loss on Lee is completely ignorant.

[bay_area_phan]

After reading today's posts, I will have to raise a standing objection to anyone who ever again accuses me of being negative.

Cliff Lee went 17-8 with a 2.40 ERA and 1.03 whip last year. His ERA coming into today's game was less than 2.00. Anyone who is calling him a "third starter" or "overpaid" should be placed under immediate psychiatric care. And anyone who feels "just as uneasy about Lee's starts as . . . Blanton's" should be given a combination of antispsychotic medication and electroshock therapy. I'm borderline serious.

[dlhunter]

GTown_Dave nailed it.

[Jo Jo Reyes]

bap: So you're saying Lee is the #1 starter on this team?

One of my points is the Lee apologists on here and in Philly. Spin it out you want, but he choked big time in last year's start against the Cards. Nobody says he's not a good pitcher, but his inconsistency (check the month to month stats last year) is clear. Not sure how he isn't the #3 starter on this team at this point.

[Phlipper]

I do have to say, it is fascinating to watch GTown and BAP come to the defense of Lee. Two more ornery baseball fans I can't think of.

My guess the reasoning is that if they admitted that C___ L___ is anything less than a demi-god, they'd have to relinquish one of their favorite weapons to use when battering RAJ.

[wes covington's ghost]

"how is it possible jimmy has 6 rbi"...i know, seems like none!

[Mike Stanton]

Ibanez homers again today against Cincy, so he's now hitting .275 with 9 HRs and 27 RBI. I know he's DH'ing some, but anybody prefer that over our powerless lf?

[GTown_Dave]

Yeah. I never would've been able to foresee Ibañez befitting from being able to pull the ball to RF in New Yankee Smallpark. I mean that must be what, a whole 250' or so?

[bay_area_phan]

"if they admitted that C___ L___ is anything less than a demi-god, they'd have to relinquish one of their favorite weapons to use when battering RAJ."

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[wes covington's ghost]

wow. how can ibanez hit with that lineup around him?

[Here You Go]

So, a quick look at Lee's last 5 starts shows he overpowered the Giants, Astro's and Pirates - some weak hitting teams. The Mets scored 4 on him and he only gave up 1 to them another time. And, his 10 inning masterpiece was against the light hitting Padres. He's run up against a very good offense today who showed him what good teams do to hanging pitches.

[Ron Jones]

When will Cholly sit Rollins for a game? Maybe that can help, it's not like moving Galvis to SS and letting Fontenot play 2B will result in any loss of production.

[EastFallowfield]

Beckett's gotta be endearing himself to BoSox fans this inning.

[bay_area_phan]

JoJo: Frankly, even if he is the third best starter on the team, who cares? He's still one of the top 10 pitcher in baseball.

Nonetheless, by what possible criteria could you adjudge him the 3rd best starter on the team? If you're using last year's stats, or their overall body of work, then Hamels is the 3rd best pitcher. If you're using this year's performance, then Halladay is the third best pitcher (if not 4th). And, if you're using the fact that he pitched one bad game in last year's playoffs, then you're too dense to be reasoned with.

[LET'S GO EAT]

Ron Jones-- EXACTLY!

They look like they are in one of their lost spirals...

I was hoping that today we would be able to lick ourselves in the arse and get moving forward again

Guess not,,

[GBrettFan]

Does it really matter that Cliff Lee had a bad beginning to the game today? I realize that we never know "what might have been", but given the fact that we've scored 0 runs, and that:

David Hale ‏@DavidHaleTNJ
This would be the 10th time the #Phillies were shut out since start of 2011. Five of them would be starts by Cliff Lee.

&
David Hale ‏@DavidHaleTNJ
If this score holds, #Phillies will have scored 2 runs or fewer in 6 of Cliff's last 9 reg. season starts.

...It seems like the poor man was almost doomed to a loss before that first pitch HR.

[EastFallowfield]

A little better luck on those two lineouts and this is a 5-3 or 5-4 game, and they'd look like they're in one of their regular spirals.

[Ron Jones]

TBS announcers talking about Cholly being a "hitting guru", when does that label go away?

[3r0ck]

Mass exodus at te stadium and it's not even the 8th yet

[LET'S GO EAT]

in some circles he's known as the _________
guru....

free opportunity to fill in the blank - there is no right or wrong answer...

( although hitting guru probably is wrong as is strategy guru)

[GTown_Dave]

If you're using last year's stats, or their overall body of work, then Hamels is the 3rd best pitcher. If you're using this year's performance, then Halladay is the third best pitcher (if not 4th). And, if you're using the fact that he pitched one bad game in last year's playoffs, then you're too dense to be reasoned with.

With the exception of changing "... one bad game ..." to "... one bad inning ...", I agree w/ this post completely.

And to whomever was whining about Lee only pitching well against the Padres, Lee hasn't even faced the Padres this season. The comments in this thread have been so shockingly dumb I'd worry Vic had begun posting, save for the fact that I can see him on the field right now.

[wes covington's ghost]

good for diekman. nice rebound from the other night.

[LET'S GO EAT]

good for diekman. nice rebound from the other night.

Posted by: wes covington's ghost | Sunday, May 20, 2012 at 03:48 PM
=========================================
w.c.g. -- ditto

[Jamaal Wilkes]

Kendrick v Gonzalez tomorrow, so a 3 game losing streak follows 6 wins in a row.

[Vic]

This iPod works great. I can keep it in my pocket so I can go on Beerleaguer between innings and post that "Cliff Lee sucks."

[Dragon]

Orr power!

[LET'S GO EAT]

pete orr - wow, a double, i knew there was a reason we kept on the ML club..

do any you know why? i don't

[bay_area_phan]

Confession: That 3:54 post wasn't really Vic posting between innings. It was me posting in the midst of an inning.

[Mike Hunt]

They leave Beckett in to face Pierre - why wouldn't they?

[LET'S GO EAT]

why didnt shane swing at the 1st pitch?

[Mike Hunt]

Victorino never took the bat off of his shoulder, guess last night's first pitch pop up was on his mind?

[LET'S GO EAT]

Vinny again??? HUnter put a charge in one...

[Dragon]

Victorino must have had a red light for the first five pitches.

[wes covington's ghost]

mike hunt...havn't heard that name since 4th grade.

[LET'S GO EAT]

btw - the hp ump svcks

[can_of_corn]

I hope I'm wrong but why do I feel so sure Wiggy will get the 3rd out

[LET'S GO EAT]

coc - you are prob right

[Dragon]

What's this, plate discipline by two of the Phillies freest swingers? Too bad Wiggington couldn't cash in on this rarity.

[bay_area_phan]

If this series were the Olympics, and the event were Shitty Clutch Hitting, the Phillies would have won the gold medal running away.

[wes covington's ghost]

silver and bronze as well...

[can_of_corn]

Just because there's nothing else to say about our offense, on a lighter note, I think Majestic pays someone to wear a furry Phanatic hat right in camera view behind home plate for every game. It's 80 darn degrees and still there's a furry green hat. (when we lose the smallest things begin to annoy.....)

[cut_fastball]

Just as I've argued -- to the highest amount of resistance imaginable -- that one can construct and manage a team for a short playoff series, so it can be said that intangibles come into play with certain players in big game scenarios.

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity; you are what your record says you are. Sparkling ERA regardless, why did Cliff Lee come up small in that playoff game against St. Louis last year? Why did he get tattooed today in a game that was a near must-win for the Phils struggling to escape last place?

This team was built on pitching, no? I love Lee's stats. However, since becoming a Philadelphia Phillie, I don't recall what I'd call a "clutch" performance (10 inning masterpiece aside) for Mr. Lee.

[LET'S GO EAT]

Just because there's nothing else to say about our offense, on a lighter note, I think Majestic pays someone to wear a furry Phanatic hat right in camera view behind home plate for every game. It's 80 darn degrees and still there's a furry green hat. (when we lose the smallest things begin to annoy.....)

Posted by: can_of_corn | Sunday, May 20, 2012 at 04:12 PM

================

Imagine if Wheels was wearing one of the furry Phanatic hats -instead of toupee- it would sent most of us past annoy - and right over the edge,

[LET'S GO EAT]

cut_fastball-- Bravo -- well stated!

[EastFallowfield]

Not seeing this game as a near must win today. It's May 20th, and coming in the Phils were a 1/2 game out of a playoff spot.

[LET'S GO EAT]

maybe it's important in terms team resiliency after yesterday's loss.. if so, then Lee fails there as well,

[Dragon]

Only one run allowed by the bullpen in this three game series. Too bad our hitters were so adept at leaving men on base.

[LET'S GO EAT]

the offense really came up small in yesterday and today's games

2 for 11 yest. and 1 for 9 today..

my #'s may be off a little but you get the point..

[GTown_Dave]

Wait ... Aceves was allowed to pitch in a non-Save situation on the Road a day after making a 4 out Save?!

It's a shame Papelbon makes so much money, maybe the Phillies would use him more often.

[I'll stand up for Cliff Lee]

This blog usually has a lot of anti-Cliff Lee posters coming out of their mouseholes the first chance they get. You're either insane or totally moronic. First of all, the Phillies just don't score runs when Cliff pitches. Second, whether you are too dense or involved in other agendas to realize it - Cliff Lee is one of the very best pitchers in all of baseball. I'd want him on my team anyday, anywhere!

[GBrettFan]

This team was built on pitching, no? I love Lee's stats. However, since becoming a Philadelphia Phillie, I don't recall what I'd call a "clutch" performance (10 inning masterpiece aside) for Mr. Lee.

Posted by: cut_fastball |

Cliff Lee's ERA was under 2.00 coming into today. Not sure how you can find fault with that.

[the truth please]

I'll stand up for Cliff Lee aka as ____

who?

[LETS GO EAT]

'the truth please' aka LGE

[EastFallowfield]

Cliff Lee hate is a little weird, but it sounds like we despise almost everyone on the team and the administration these days. Good thing these last 5 seasons haven't spoiled us much.

[GTown_Dave]

Over the past 2 games the Phillies have gone 3-21 (.125) w/ RISP, & totaled 18 LOB. That's not gonna cut it.

[Pete Alexander]

I found an answer
for all that's wrong in my life:
His name is Cliff Lee.

[philtime]

we tank the series to the last place sox while the braves shut out the team with the best record going into the series. the rays had yet to be shut out. the braves do it not once but twice. must be nice for them. not to mention we now back to under .500

[GTown_Dave]

Back to a game below .500 (Kendrick tomorrow vs. Gio Gonzalez, definite loss).

[philtime]

yeh that's why i went ahead and said we back under .500

[Pete Alexander]

Back to a game below .500 (Kendrick tomorrow vs. Gio Gonzalez, definite loss).

Posted by: GTown_Dave | Sunday, May 20, 2012 at 04:37 PM

As, of course, was Kendrick vs. Garza

[LETS GO EAT]

In other news:

The next Don Drysdale aka Tyler Cloyd (LV) gave up a grand salami today and went on to lose to a Louisville Bats team that is 14-30...

[GTown_Dave]

Never even made it to a second page on the Game Chat today, either. It's like "If Beerleaguer Had Existed In 1988" around here.