Game chat: Phils in NY as specter of shoulder looms

Left-handers Cole Hamels (7-1, 2.17) and Jon Niese (3-2, 4.29) open an important divisional series at Citi Field Monday beginning 1:10 p.m. But the big story continues to be the disclosure of the cranky right shoulder of Roy Halladay.

Beerleaguer: Well ... yeah. Did anyone honestly believe Doc was pitching pain free? Compare the data with 2011 all you like. Go ahead an bury your head in data. But anyone watching can plainly see he hasn't been the same all season. Scouts have reportedly said this for months. Drastically fewer two-seamers. A strange mix of pitches. A significant dip in velocity. And the simple fact that he's been getting pounded. Give him an MRI now; why wait? Read between the lines of Rich Dubee's quotes and you'll understand that he's been pitching through pain for a while. If he's broken, why wait to fix him?

To a much lesser degree, it's also evident that Chad Qualls (knee) isn't right, either, although he's old and marginal anyway. There's absolutely nothing on his pitches. The Qualls injury surfaced around the same time Laynce Nix went on the disabled list.

In terms of replacements for Doc, keep your eye on Dave Bush (4-3, 2.73), who pitches tonight against Julio Teheran (4-2, 2.98) in Triple-A Gwinnett. Bush, the former Brewer, reportedly has an opt-out clause and the Phillies would be wise to keep their depth with injuries to Doc and also Vance Worley. With Thursday's off day, Bush could slot into Doc's spot on regular rest. As for Qualls, they could try the Michael Schwimer experiment again - Schwimer continues to pitch great at Triple-A, but still hasn't been able to make the jump.

Brown report: Dom Brown started in center field for the fourth straight game for the IronPigs Sunday, had two hits for the second straight game, a first-inning single and a fourth-inning double high off the wall in right field, the Morning Call reports. He also botched a second-inning single that led to an unearned run, but later made a diving catch to end the seventh, the story goes on to say. [Link]

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Comments

[pleasesteak]

My favorite posting from yesterday on what's going on with Doc was the one that asked if maybe he in fact was the one bitten by the anaconda this offeason - and not some other man, as the story went.

Hmmmmmm......Could some exotic snake virus be affecting his body?

[Raul's grandpa (may open one can of beer)]

I suspect the anaconda survivors are suing him at the Hague and it is finally breaking down his resolve.

[HammRadio]

You can hide poor defense in left. Which is why i thought it was great that Dom was there. Now that he's playing center means two things:
1. We are trading Vic. Howard's not coming back leaving AAABerry for 1b so you need a CF.
2. RAJ is trying to add value to Dom

[Jack]

By the way, the Halladay thing is why people pay attention to velocity.

People on here (namely Clout) always claim velocity is irrelevant whenever someone mentions it (he's wrong about that generally, of course--velocity does matter). But when a player shows a drop in velocity from his normal range, then it is often an indication that the player is injured. People were correct to notice Halladay's lack of velocity on his four-seam fastball, as well as his reluctance to use the pitch at all.

[Scott]

Repost about the "other" Roy:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/27/roy-oswalt-is-now-looking-for-the-biggest-payday/

[salt]

Like the Bush call-up idea, short-term. Doc's MRI's gonna be huge. Oswalt needs to be signed immediatly. Hammels,Lee, Blanton,Kendrick & Bush. I don't have alot of faith in #'s 3,4&5. Little Roy makes them much stronger. Anything more from Halliday is a bonus (fingers crossed).

[donc]

Jack I agree with you on velocity. I think Clout is usually arguing that many of us think that velocity is the be all and end all of pitching. He argues that we put too much emphasis on it. I know I do. Power is an awesome thing for any athlete to have. It's is hard to be elite without it. But it isn't impossible. Guys like Greg Maddux prove that. But you are dead on about at least monitoring a pitcher's velocity. When it drops it's a sure sign of trouble, or at the very least, fatigue.

[Scott]

Chooch out of lineup. Right hammy tightness.

[donc]

And the hits just keep coming.

[Scotch Man]

Great, Chooch is out with a hamstring issue with Victorino batting clean up. Just book the loss now.

[Scotch Man]

Dave Bush is going to be this year's RoLo.

[Jack]

donc: Greg Maddux threw low 90s until he was in his 30s.

Do you need plus velocity to succeed? No. But if you told me there were two comparable prospects in AA with similar numbers, one of whom threw 94 and one of whom threw 88, every GM in baseball would correctly take the one who threw 94.

[GTown_Dave]

At the moment I'm more upset about Chooch than Halladay. Probably because the Phillies have a few other decent starting pitchers, but the alternative at catcher is friggin' Schneider. What a crappy season.

[donc]

Jack I completely agree with you. I'd rather have velocity than not for sure. I guess I was in the odd position of speaking for Clout. Feels weird because I'm not even in my mom's basement.

[donc]

Gtown: Schneider has been hitting the ball a bit lately though. God it is even weirder defending Schneider than it is defending Clout. But yeah I know what you mean. Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking "Yes! Schneider is in the lineup today". Not even Brian Schneider.

[Jr]

I have a hard time seeing Brown patrolling CF.Too bad that Thompson guy was a bust.

[Steve]

I think the FO is deluding themselves into thinking that this is a championship caliber team and that Utley and Howard are coming to save the day. This is why they let Halladay pitch through whatever is bothering him. They need to be honest with themselves and worry about their players' health at this point

[Zudok]

Hey, c'mon now. If it were a warm summer-like day you know Chooch would be in there!

[GTown_Dave]

Updated Lineup:

Rollins (SS), Polanco (3B), Pence (RF), Victorino (CF), Wigginton (1B), Mayberry (LF), Galvis (2B), Schneider (C), Hamels (P).

[pleasesteak]

(Sorry, long post). Does it make sense to pay big $ to Oswalt?

Should that $ not be set aside to secure Hamels? (A long term plan needs to be put in effect with this aging team. Hamels, still young, needs to be re-signed). Might it not be best to hope for the best with whatever we have on our roster this year, hope to at least squeak into the post-season where about anything can happen?

Also we don't know that Doc is done for the season. A LOT can happen between late May and October, including an improvement in Halladay. His 2012 baseball season obituary just might prove to be premature. We might be having a very different conversation by October, heck even in 6 weeks time. The season is not yet 1/3 done. Phils are what, 5 games back? Not exactly like they are 12 back and playing 10 games under .500. And they just took 3 of 4 from St. Louis and the Mets are not throwing fear-inducing starters these next 3 games. I know it is looking not so great right now though.

[bay_area_phan]

Bush had a couple seasons in which he was an average starter, but that was a LONG time ago. He has been positively putrid for the last 3 seasons.

[bay_area_phan]

Just for some perspective about Dave Bush's impressive AAA numbers . . . other pitchers in the International League's top 20 for ERA include: Jo-Jo Reyes, Justin Germano, Brett Tomko, and Ramon Ortiz.

[Will Schweitzer]

I'd like to believe that Dom's move to CF was done to give him more opportunities to work on his defense. I find it very difficult to believe that they're willing to trade one of the best defensive CF in baseball and replace him with the worst defensive prospect in the organization.

Amaro's goal is to remain in contention until 2015 when their current television contract has expired. After that point, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Phillies exceed the luxury tax ceiling, but it's not going to happen this season. The only way Amaro signs Oswalt is if he can move a significant amount of salary in a trade. If Hamels can be traded to an AL contender for blue chip, high level prospects, I can easily see Amaro bringing Oswalt back. It wouldn't be dissimilar to the Halladay signing/Lee trade fiasco. It fits his teenage fantasy baseball mentality perfectly.

I'm not in favor of bringing Oswalt back, but if the Blue Jays, Angels, Orioles, Red Sox and Yankees get into a prospect bidding war for Hamels, it would be very difficult not to make a trade. If you resign yourself to the fact that 2012 will not be a championship season (and we have no reason to believe that it will be), it may be the move that makes the difference between contending in 2013 - 2015 or treading water until the tv rights can be sold.

That being said, trade or no trade, Hamels will pitch elsewhere in 2013. The smart move would be to lock up Victorino, re-stock the farm with Hamels and use the Hamels cash to ensure that Howard's days in the cleanup spot are over.

[Zudok]

Here's the most optimistic thing I can say: Nobody was afraid of the Cardinals last year at this time. Charlie finally wins Manager of the Year. Sorry, that was two things. Happy Memorial Day!

[bay_area_phan]

Can we quit with the "If only we hadn't let Rich Thompson go" theme? First of all, the guy is a .33-year old minor league journeyman who hit -- get ready for it -- .276/.354/.408 in like his 10th year of AAA last year. Second, he's hitting .091 right now. Third, if you like the idea of giving minor league journeymen a fair shot, then you should absolutely love this Phillies team. We have about four minor league journeymen on our present roster.

[Fatalotti]

Um JW, the data suggests that Doc is not the same pitcher as last year. Much lower strikeout rate, bit of an uptick in walk rate, and a decrease in GB%. Coupled with an ERA that is almost sitting at 4, and ERA+ that is actually under 100 (96), and the data lines up quite nicely with what our eyes have been telling us. Doc hasn't been right this year, and it finally came to a head yesterday.

[Raul's grandpa (opening a case of microbrews)]

Not that I am not a Lil Roy hater...( this doesn't color my opinion) just dollars and cents wise..,this team should spend no more money on outside pitching except for minute amounts for relief help. If you have several big integral parts go down in a season, you must logically evaluate and either cut bait (trade away) or buy cheaply because you must know you cannot possibly do any better than last year. I am a charter PPP member and a Debbie Downer. But I hope for better next year.

[Raul's grandpa (opening a case of microbrews)]

I disagree with Will S when it comes to Hamels.

[GTown_Dave]

Read between the lines of Rich Dubee's quotes and you'll understand that [Halladay's] been pitching through pain for a while. If he's broken, why wait to fix him?

Because the Phillies have a FO composed of delusional imbeciles? I would LOVE to be the proverbial fly on the wall & hear what some of the more involved members of the ownership group think of how Monty & r00b have been handling things.

[aksmith]

Hamels is an ace in his prime. If you're going to trade him, you'd better get a huge haul of major league ready talent. In what universe is Rube the guy to evaluate that talent properly?

I watched money ball again the other day. I understand the limitations of the moneyball approach to the game. But watching Hunter Pence, it's really obvious where Rube has gone wrong. When your lineup is already full of Vics and JRolls and Polancos, who really don't have outstanding on base skills, how can you trade two of your top prospects for a guy, Hunter Pence, who only takes a walk under pain of death and only takes pitches every other Tuesday?

The Phils are loaded with players who would have to have .325 batting averages with 25 or more homeruns to actually add value to the team. And trading for fading has beens like Ty Wigginton and Chad Qualls only makes the situation worse.

It is really tough to watch this lineup continually swing 2-0 when the pitcher has just walked the previous batter. My little league team showed more patience.

[Jack]

Do you all remember when Jimmy Rollins was a good offensive player?

Those were the days.

[Tom McCarthy]

It's a fare ball!...no, wait it's foul by several feet.

[GTown_Dave]

The Mets look like a sharp defensive squad. Maybe they'd be interested in acquiring Dom Brown to round out the incompetence?

[limoguy]

I haven't been paying much attention to the Phillies lately, but if Hamels goes, I will pay even less attention to them, if any at all. His turn to start is one of the few things I look forward to.

[GBrettFan]

That was a pretty half-inning. It was a duel between bad offense and bad defense.

[Sneed]

How could anyone be shocked that they let Doc pitch through this? Look at the roster and tell me you wouldn't have as well.

[Will Schweitzer]

Aksmith: just to clarify my earlier post,Hamels should not be traded unless it's for a true wealth of prospects, but with the AL East and West as it is, I believe that Amaro would have several attractive offers to choose from.

This team will not carry three pitchers making $20 million per season. It wouldn't happen even if the core of our lineup wasn't fragile and in steep decline. This is why I say that Cole is gone in 2013. It's not a question of his talent. It's a question of whether or not this team will have a difference maker in the lineup, which we presently do not have...healthy or otherwise. If dollars were equal, does this team as it is benefit more from a Hamelton bat or a Hamels arm?

[GTown_Dave]

How could anyone be shocked that they let Doc pitch through this? Look at the roster and tell me you wouldn't have as well.

This roster is exactly why I wouldn't have let Halladay attempt to pitch through an injury. It's a pointless exercise.

[can_of_corn]

Assuming Roob wants to remain competitive every year, one would also assume he would build the team around the player that is not only already elite, but also has the most upside in future years. If not Hamels, then who or what?

[Jack]

Hamels and Lee put together better ABs, consistently, than a good amount of regular hitters in the lineup.

[GTown_Dave]

Case in Point: Roll, J.

[GBrettFan]

Cole Hamels = awesome

[GBrettFan]

Jimmy is having such a crappy year at the plate!

[pleasesteak]

Someone mentioned Josh Hamilton as a Phil next year. I really think it's in that man's best interests to not sign with a big market, media crazy team like Philly, NY, etc. His drug addiction issues seem so fragile. If I were him, I stayed in Texas where it's working well for him.

[Tom McCarthy]

Lucas Doooo-Daaah

[GTown_Dave]

Show some patience at the plate & good things happen. Amazing.

[BobbyD]

I always wonder why major league managers don't seem to actively coach players during games the way they do in the other three sports. Why can't Manuel walk up and down the bench and lecture the players about their approach to Niese?

I started this thought before the 3 baserunners but the point remains.

[Brooklyn Phillies]

http://www.panix.com/~steveo/mobile/wiggy/

Wiggington on second after that sweeeet double.

[GTown_Dave]

Galvis is friggin' AWESOME.

[Will Schweitzer]

Corn: in a perfect world; a world in which absurd contracts to Howard and Pap do not exist; a world in which $40m per season isn't going to two older, arguably less talented starters; a world in which we have a farm system that contained the next generation of Philly talent or at least noteworthy trade bait... In that world, I say lock up Hamels for as many years as possible and spend whatever it takes to outbid everyone else.

In this world, if Amaro spends the money that it will take to keep Hamels, whatever team he can build around him will have a lot of faces like Luna, Wiggy, Nix, Minimart and a lot of aged and hobbled faces of the past decade who intimidate no one.

This team needs a 3b and a LF more than it needs another $20 million dollar pitcher. Keeping Hamels financially handcuffs this team to a point where his starts may be the only games worth watching...assuming he gets any run support.

No one in this lineup except Galvis and Mayberry stand much of a chance at getting better with age. Utley may be finished altogether. Howard is more likely to replicate Bill White than he is 2007. Rollins has been in steep decline since his Mvp. Polanco is gone in 2013 and Victorino may follow. Unless you feel that Chooch and Pence are enough of a threat in 2013, this team needs to focus all of its resources on its lineup. We dont have the luxury of three aces.

[GBrettFan]

Galvis is friggin' AWESOME.

Posted by: GTown_Dave | Monday, May 28, 2012 at 02:02 PM

Absolutely true!

[Luis]

Not true i knew the Cards could take the Phils. Just as I knew the Giants would. That was the one team i knew could beat the Phils. Lets see what tomorrow holds for Doc before we hit the Panic button.

[GBrettFan]

I was just thinking "Good thing Hamels is pitching, because a 2-run lead isn't a lot"....Goodbye, lead.

[phatti]

So why is that a home run? Don't home runs usually go over the wall? That's a really dumb ground rule.

[GBrettFan]

I believe that with our diminished rotation, and the fact that we're playing NL East rivals, it's not "small potatoes" to win this series - and our best chance of that is to take game 1, especially with our best performing pitcher on the mound.

[GBrettFan]

Thank you, Mayberry!!!!

[phatti]

So apparently, our manager isn't the only one who pulls his starter one batter too late. Nice job RFD.

[bullit]

The Delivery Man !!!

[Sneed]

Wigginton and Mayberry doing exactly what you need from them against an average lefty starter. Ah, platoons.

[Brooklyn Phillies]

Can't believe they didn't pinch hit for Neise at 106 pitches..

[EastFallowfield]

Can't believe Hamels just doesn't walk Hairston every time he comes up.

[GBrettFan]

@*$&^#@@$@##!!!!

[GBrettFan]

@*$&^#@@$@##!!!!

[aksmith]

People rag on Wheels, but I was sitting here thinking "Don't throw Hairston a fastball." Wheels says exactly the same thing. And what does Schneider call? Fastball. Tie game.

I miss Chooch.

[TK]

Two meatballs to two marginal players. Not Cole's best day. Once again feels like a loss.

[Tony LaRussa]

"Wigginton and Mayberry doing exactly what you need from them against an average lefty starter."

You could say the same thing for Rottino and Hairston.

[EastFallowfield]

Rollins stinks.

[Scotch Man]

Trade Cole to the Tribe for Chisenhall

[GBrettFan]

Yes! I was holding my breath. Nice to feel some excitement.

[EastFallowfield]

It's Wigginton season.

[Billy Mac]

Salisbury just tweeted Halladay out for season

[Doughy Pantload]

Halladays exam is not until tomorrow so somebody is full of it.

[Billy Mac]

Sorry for bogus news -- it was a spoof Salisbury account

[Raul's grandpa]

Get everyone named Hairston immediately, make trades throw cash around..,just do it now!!!!!

[Mick O]

Billy Mac lies

https://twitter.com/jsalisburycsn

[Dickie Thong]

Good job by Hamels turning the lineup over. /snark

[LarryV]

Freddy out on the first pitch of the 8th inning with a slim 1-run lead. Is there a penalty on this team for taking a pitch or two? Do the players have a bounty system that penalizes them for taking pitches? A hazing policy, perhaps? Surely there's an explanation somewhere....

[GBrettFan]

Come on, Phillies!

[Lets go eat]

Mayberry la-le-gag getting that ball back to 2nd base

[curt]

Sarge ripping Mayberry a new one on that defensive play. Trying to remember him ever calling out a Phillie like that...long season already?

[aksmith]

Mayberry lollygagged that into a double. Just disgusting.

[GBrettFan]

Freddy is SO much fun to watch.

[can_of_corn]

Cmon Cole.

[MG]

Wigginton has been a man on a mission today to single-handely win this game for the Phils.

Phils' offense has shun a lot more late-inning hurrah the last few weeks.

[Lets go eat]

This ump sucks!

[Dickie Thong]

Mayberry la-le-gag getting that ball back to 2nd base

I remember him doing that a couple of years ago with Scott Rolen. You'd think he'd have learned by now.

[aksmith]

And that's why you have to sign Cole. Not his best day. But he's a tough son of a gun.

[GTown_Dave]

Yes! A couple of bad pitches aside, that was another great outing for Hamels. Now I'd love to see the Phils tack on a couple more here before Papelbon comes into the game.

[MG]

Nice job by Hamels to get Wright there. My bet it is the ball game.

[can_of_corn]

Would be nice to have some insurance going into Pap time, but not too much. I want to see Pap, nobody else, in the 9th

[GBrettFan]

Nice job, Cole and Freddy!

[GTown_Dave]

Well that was a hideous AB.

[Lets go eat]

Vic totally fooled...

[GBrettFan]

YES!!!

Wiggy is the hero of the day!

[curt]

Wiggie Day

[lolwut]

wig out!!

[GTown_Dave]

Damn, Wiggy! Have yo'self a day!

[bullit]

Ty a yellow ribbon around this game !!!

[Lets go eat]

Ty is the guy...

Still want Pap

[can_of_corn]

Yay Ty! Oh dear....no Pap now?