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Tuesday, May 29, 2012

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And now we get to talk about how it was stupid for him to try to be a hero and throw when clearly everyone on the planet knew he wasn't himself.
Posted by: Joe D


I agree! He wasn't doing himself or the Phillies any favors by aggravating the strain.

But I thought it was a sore arm/shoulder? Is it just that the back strain affected the arm?

* * *
Is it also breaking news that our season sucks?

Not that its good by any means, but it being a back muscle might be better than anything in his shoulder/elbow right?

And, thus there arose in the land great lamentation, wailing and gnashing of teeth . . .

Manuel now has a free pass for any stupid in-game moves he will inevitably make. And believe me he'll still make them. But if he gets this team into the playoffs he should be named the next president of the U.S.

Jim Gardner knows what's up: "Halladay on shelf for 6-8 weeks. So the Big 4 is now the Big 2. Good thing the Phillies have such a potent offense to carry them."

Gambling so much on starting pitching was a bad choice ...

How can one mistake a shoulder injury with a back muscle? Can someone explain this to me?

Can't wait for RA Jr. to use this injury as his justification for not meeting Cole's demands. Should be fun.

Considering there are no issues with his labrum/rotator cuff and no surgery is necessary this news isn't that bad.

Considering there are no issues with his labrum/rotator cuff and no surgery is necessary this news isn't that bad.

Posted by: That Guy

Or this news means exactly that...that there is something wrong with his rotator cuff. For all we know he probably pulled a groin because I don't know how you can confuse lat pain as shoulder pain. That's just me though.

The next two months are going to be really interesting in how the team on the field and the guy calling the shots react. Not necessarily fun or entertaining, but interesting.

1. Jimmy Rollins, SS
2. Juan Pierre, LF
3. Hunter Pence, RF
4. Ty Wigginton, 1B
5. Shane Victorino, CF
6. Placido Polanco, 3B
7. Freddy Galvis, SS
8. Brian Schneider, C
9. Joe Blanton, P

Three questions: 1) What constitutes the heart of the order? 2) Does it matter whose at the plate with a RISP? 3) How many of these guys will even be around 12 months from now?

My Latin is a bit rusty, but I believe latissimus dorsi can be translated as meaning both "obvious lies" & "Season = Over"

Yeah, assuming it's true, this is actually not the doomsday news I was expecting. It's a storm they can weather, but just add it to the list of things they need to overcome simply to tread water until the All-Star break, and it's becoming a pretty big challenge to get the team into the playoffs.

Now that Oswalt is signing with Texas, get ready for a heavy dose of Dave Bush.

My Latin is a bit rusty, but I believe latissimus dorsi can be translated as meaning both "obvious lies" & "Season = Over"

Posted by: GTown_Dave

Fine work. Fine work, indeed.

Yeah, well a lat can easily become something else, as we have seen with this organization.

Just like how General Soreness went from being a grumpy brigade commander in the Ruben Amaro injury lexicon army to the world's most debilatating case of arthritis.

curt: Believe you me, Rollins will still be here. He has checks to cash. Probably Schneider, too. You just can't afford to part w/ players of that caliber.

It WILL come out that Halladay strained his lat, paddling the Amazon in the offseason and wrestling anacondas.

if he got an mri, it would show a rotator cuff tear or labrum or something

It would be nice if Kratz actually got to play once instead of riding back and forth. Guess it's hard to put him ahead of a guy like Brian Schneider.

How long before someone claims Kratz?

I still love how this has played out with Doc. His velocity was down in the spring. Everyone called it out. If you look at the way he has been throwing (pitch breakdown, overall suckitude) you knew he wasn't right. Yet how was it handled? Oh we'll just trot him out there every 5th day with no regard. Seems like the right approach. Both Doc and the organization are at fault.

Halladay will have experimental surgery in the off-season enabling him to return to his former glory and pitch another ten years. All those having this surgery after him will be refered to as having had "Roy Halladay surgery".

Now that Oswalt is signing with Texas, get ready for a heavy dose of Dave Bush.

I never thought I'd find the prospect of receiving a heavy dose of bush so depressing.

If only Mr. Halladay had been paddling near the the MacArthur causeway...

I would like to see Vic offers jamming up the telex in no time.

I think it's funny how certain posters are in their glory when bad news is announced by the team. It's almost as if they are cheering for the Phillies to go down in flames.

Who pitches for Halladay? Twitter today reports that Worley felt no pain in a BP session today (good news) but that there's no timetable for his return (not so good news).

So we've got:

* Lee - who apparently is pitching under a black cloud this year, being winless in spite of his best efforts

* Hamels - winningest pitcher in baseball so far this season, so that's good

* Blanton - who can't decide whether he's new & improved or same old & often disappointingly blah or downright bad

* KK - who, all in all, has done a good job but is no Roy Halladay

* ?

Pedro!!!!

I think it's funny how certain posters are in their glory when bad news is announced by the team. It's almost as if they are cheering for the Phillies to go down in flames.

Posted by: RedBurb

I'm just frustrated with how things were handled. It was beyond stupid. And I think we are all within our rights to be skeptical that there is more to this injury.

Pedro!!!!

Posted by: Five-4-One

I'm in!

GBrettFan: Worley, who apparently "feels great", "has no pain", etc. ... but for whom there's also been "no timetable" set for a return to action.

RIP, Vance Worley.

Joe D, I'm not talking about you. There are posters here who revel in bad Phillies news and portray themselves as great fans. It's either really funny or very sad.

Joe D, I totally agree.

Spring Training: Hey Roy's velocity is down. Is something wrong.

Team and Doc: Shut up and drink beers at the tiki bar. You guys don't know anything.

Beginning of season: Hey Roy's got a good era, but his velocity is down and he throws less fastballs than RA Dickey.

Team and Doc: Shut up and buy Schmitters and try the new micro brews at the park.

Recently: Hey Roy has sucked. No velocity, no fastballs, and oh yeah, he's sucked recently. Something wrong?

Team and Doc: Shut up, you don't know anything, Doc is fine, just worry about your Miracle Whip inventory.

That's why some people are frustrated.

Joe D, I'm not talking about you. There are posters here who revel in bad Phillies news and portray themselves as great fans. It's either really funny or very sad.

Posted by: RedBurb

Gotcha. I didn't know who it was directed at...just stating my position.

@JimBowdenESPNxm: Texas Rangers have agreed to terms with Roy Oswalt > Gotta love this organization from top to bottom

Season=Over

If you dont think it is, you're basically delusional at this point.

Great job there, Dubes.

Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki
Dubee said he thought Halladay had an issue since spring training. Said he thought it was a minor, lingering issue. Never went away.

Worley threw a bullpen today.

***Texas Rangers have agreed to terms with Roy Oswalt***

Too funny. God forbid we got him when we knew Doc was pitching hurt for 2 months.

Kudos for Rube for being an idiot.

Great job there, Dubes.

Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki
Dubee said he thought Halladay had an issue since spring training. Said he thought it was a minor, lingering issue. Never went away.

Posted by: Dickie Thong

Yeah who wants to protect investments right. I might go buy a Ferrari, have it run like s*** and when it does just hope it goes away.

Its good to see the organization listens to its pitching coach about pitching.

Of course, last year's Roy Oswalt was kinda not all that awesome.

***Dubee said he thought Halladay had an issue since spring training. Said he thought it was a minor, lingering issue. Never went away.***

Guess we have a pretty limited MRI budget these days. That makes sense to not check that out when you've got a $20 million player you've invested in.

This type of smugness from the front office and medical staff reeks of something the Eagles would do. And that is what really upsets me.

EFF, totally agree with you.

I am just dreading them jerking around with the Dave Bush's of the world, while they could at least promote a guy with some upside and try to catch lightning in a bottle.

NEPP, just to clarify, anyone who thinks Dave Bush will be succesfull back in the majors is delusional.

This type of smugness from the front office and medical staff reeks of something the Eagles would do. And that is what really upsets me.

Absolutely. They've been doing it for years, & the proverbial chickens are finally coming home to roost.

"Jim Gardner knows what's up: "Halladay on shelf for 6-8 weeks. So the Big 4 is now the Big 2. Good thing the Phillies have such a potent offense to carry them."

Gambling so much on starting pitching was a bad choice ...

Posted by: GTown_Dave | Tuesday, May 29, 2012 at 04:38 PM "
.
.
GTown, did you see my post in the last thread about how many RPG the Phils have scored in May as well as the comparison to the rest of the NL?

Does anyone see the possible non-signing of Oswalt as acceptance from the front office of "hey this window really is closing, no use in throwing out more money for what could likely bring back no results."

??

Stay within 5 until after the All Star break. Teams will be very sorry they didn't bury the Phils. By the way, a lot of contenders don't have two aces like Hamels and Lee. Don't panic, Phillies fans.

***By the way, a lot of contenders don't have two aces like Hamels and Lee.***

Yeah, but those teams tend to have good offenses instead.

This really is quite discouraging.

Remember how Cliff Lee gets the occasional oblique strain? Does he try to pitch through it? Not for long. He stops and rests it til he can pitch healthy and effectively again.

Oswalt with his back issues? Same thing.

Why wouldn't Halladay have also rested? He said it himself, although at the time it sounded like he was talking about pressure, not pain: "I think, myself included, we're trying to do too much." (That's not an exact quote but is the best I can recall it from an interview that followed one of his last 2 starts.)

Hamels
Lee
Worley
Blanton
Kendrick

There are worse rotations, but a better offense is now required.

awh: Yup. The offense might not be as bad as it was in April, but I also don't believe it will remain as productive as it has been in May.

"How can one mistake a shoulder injury with a back muscle? Can someone explain this to me?

Posted by: Joe D | Tuesday, May 29, 2012 at 04:39 PM"
.
.
.
JoeD, take a look at this description:

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/LatissimusDorsi.html

So, is Ken Rosenthal no longer an a$$ or are they going to ignore that he nailed this back in ST. Obviously someone slipped to him about the issue and then the FO & Doc stonewalled him once he leaked it.

NEPP, it was obvious in ST that Doc wasn't the same.

I don't think anyone had to "slip" Rosenthal anything.

"... I also don't believe it will remain as productive as it has been in May."


GTown, based on what, exactly?

I think they need Bush and Elarton up and make it a bigger rotation so you don't have to see the sh8t as often.

With Halladay, (3.98 ERA, 4 wins) The Phils were 2 games above .500. I want a bat, not a half-assed replacement for Roy.

JoeD, take a look at this description:

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/LatissimusDorsi.html

Posted by: awh

Fair enough.

Does anyone see the possible non-signing of Oswalt as acceptance from the front office of "hey this window really is closing, no use in throwing out more money for what could likely bring back no results."

Posted by:Joe D |Tuesday, May 29, 2012 at 05:04 PM


Maybe they didn't sign Oswalt because Oswalt decided he would rather pitch for the Texas Rangers.

RE the Rangers:

With the Oswalt signing, they're "all in".


This gives us a hint about one thing, IMHO:

They're not close with Hamilton on a contract extension, and think this may have to be "their" year.

Maybe they didn't sign Oswalt because Oswalt decided he would rather pitch for the Texas Rangers.

Posted by: Mike G

Well yes clearly that is an option too.

awh: The track records of the personnel involved.

I want Carlos Lee.

As far as I'm concerned, Lee is the team ace right now, with Hamels the two. I still think Lee is a better pitcher.

And oh yeah...F@#K!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hamels>Lee

Hamels has better stuff and can still pitch effectively if he's missing his location...Lee gets rocked when that happens.

I still say there has to be more to this. It is unconscionable that the moment Doc seemed different the MRI wasn’t ordered immediately. I don’t get it.

If a precautionary diagnosis had been conducted back in spring training, Doc might be back with us good as new now.

Nope…I’m not buying that nobody on the Phils bothered to order an exam on their ace of aces, major investment, and key to the division championships. We ALL saw that Doc was different. Heck, even for the average Joe, the minute someone has joint pain (knee, shoulder, etc) doctors order a MRI.

The sky is falling!

Someone call the pissy pants posse!

NEPP, what?

Right now, this year, Hamels>Lee

Hamels has been the more consistent pitcher, but Lee has more than done his job. The issue is run support. Hamels has gotten an amazing 5.76 R/GS, while Lee has gotten a pathetic 2.54 R/GS. If the Phillies had bothered to score when Lee started the overall situation would look a lot better right now.

To be clear, I'm not bashing Lee at all. Both are True #1 pitchers among the very best in the game.

Halladay is chattel, $20 mm worth. Management has a right and obligation to protect that investment by shutting him down at the first sign of damage.If they let roy talk them out of that in spring training through the end of May with the rapidly diminishing results we all saw, shame on them. If he was not being totally honest with them through the process, shame on him

For a Grade 1 or 2 lat strain, 3 weeks sounds right. I don't know where the 6-8 weeks is coming from.

***I don't know where the 6-8 weeks is coming from.***

Maybe they're automatically adjusting for "Phillies FO speak"...

From Salsibury:

The immediate treatment for Halladay will be rest. He will be shut down from throwing for three weeks. After that he will begin a strength and rehab program designed to get him back on a big-league mound in six to eight weeks. That timetable would put Halladay’s return sometime in the final two weeks of July.

WCG, exactly. Think also of the Utley situation. We’re still not clear whether Utley was not forthcoming over winter, whether there was managerial negligence regarding his knees, or whether we are just being fed a lot of lies. Ditto Halladay.

More from Salisbury:

The Phils will not need a fifth starter until June 6. The team hopes that Vance Worley is ready to come off the disabled list shortly after that to take Halladay’s spot. Worley is on the DL with elbow inflammation. He ramped up his rehab Tuesday by throwing 30 pain-free pitches in the bullpen.

For a guy who won't pitch until July and will probably be shot (bad back) or pondering retirement again before the Sept, Tractor Boy is getting a decent haul.

By my calculation, the Phillies need a 5th starter on June 5, unless they plan to throw Kendrick on 3 days rest.

Jason Marquis is available.

Lee (7 GS):

Record (Team Record) 0-2 (2-5), 51.0 IP, 41 H, 16 R, 16 ER, 8 BB, 47 K, 6 HR, 0 HBP, 2.82 ERA, 0.961 WHIP, .225 BA/.258 OBP/.385 SLG, 701 Pitches

Run Support = 1,2,0,6,4,1,5 (19)


Hamels (first 7 GS):

Record (Team Record) 5-1 (6-1), 47.1 IP, 40 H, 13 R, 12 ER, 9 BB, 49 K, 3 HR, 2 HBP, 2.28 ERA, 1.035 WHIP, .229 BA/.273 OBP/.343 SLG, 723 Pitches

Run Support = 2,8,4,7,4,9,3 (37)


I wouldn't argue against Hamels having been the better slightly pitcher so far this season (due to his remaining healthy & consistent), but the Phillies have been wasting Lee's starts.

But GTown, this is the track record of some of the personnel in May, when the Phillies had one of the best offenses in the NL:


Wiggy: .200/.310/.300

Rollins: .215/.282/.280 (mini mart territory)

Chooch won't hit .410/.478/.654 the rest of the way, but with his new stance and approach, the question is where is his regression point. The guy has been beaned, run over, and dinged up in every way imaginable and he still goes out and produces. Amazing!

Pence has been very good, .274/.371/.566, most notably in the power department, but he's K'd a fair amount and his BAbip is .259 for the month.

Vic has done slightly better that his career average: .278/.366/.454

In May, Mayberry has picked it up a little, but is nowhere close to the guy we say in the 2nd half last season, and certainly isn't setting any records: .260/.321/.411

And Freddy has been outstanding in the clutch but still has gotten on base far too little: .268/.290/.443

And Polly's line in May: .300/.315/.400 isn't even at his career line of .300/.345/.405, so while he's done better it's not like he's been "special" in May.

Pierre is still a PopGun with no power and a bad glove, and Nix and Thome are on the DL.

The only real surprise has been Schneider in his whopping 29 PA: .321/.345/.500

IMO, so far in May the only three "standout" items in the list above have been Chooch, and Pence's and Freddy's power surges.

So GTown, while I understand your point about "track records", it's those same track records that make me think that they may be able to perform pretty close to this level going forward if the guys who have been engaging in suckitude start to hit better, and some of the guys just ht close to their career norms.

Yo, new thread!

that was a great interview with Hacker on DNL. he is hosting a "let's go eat" charity event that will feature ping pong. he said it is under-rated in what it does for hand/eye coordination. he thinks middle infielders are best at pp with their great hands. has jpop been neglecting his pp practice?

I am going to try and look at the positives here.

Halladay gets some time off, studies video, sits with Chase Utley and decides whose head they will implode using jedi mind tricks.

IF...IF IF....This is is big IF...the Phillies stay within 5 games of a playoff spot until August 1 or so, and guys start coming back, they may be able to get rolling just in time.

Next year Doc will be back.

Finally, I still got to see a World Series in 2008 after so many years of awful baseball, and will be holding on to that memory throughout this season.

Phils love some adversity, heres the latest. Look for the Phils to turn it on while Doc is out.

Ruiz purposely takes off & stays out of the lineup ( from time to time), so Brian Schneider can get in the lineup, & unleash all that pent up power!

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